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InvisibleVeritas
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The Handicap of Religiosity
    #5547379 - 04/23/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

*re-titled to clarify topic.


Quote:

In his quest to find a purpose in life that might help him cope with the adversities of life, man has invented supernatural beings. Since he could not cope with the mysterious forces of his environment, he invented gods or other mystical forces that might enhance his survival and security by responding to prayer, sacrifices or similar devotions.

Man thus invented the fiction that gods had created man and that man was under the control and in the service of such superior beings. Consequently, man believed that it was his purpose in life to placate and please these gods by subjugating himself to their will in order to ensure their goodwill and protection.

There is no objective evidence whatsoever that such omnipotent beings actually exist or, if they existed, that they have any effect on individual human lives, or that they can vest human lives with a preordained purpose. If someone claims that there is a preordained purpose to human life, such claim is merely a completely undocumented opinion, at best, or a hallucination, at worst. Not only is such extraordinary claim without any shred of evidence, but it also stands in contradiction to all factual evidence available to man. Rational human beings require extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims

Religious or mythological belief systems require faith. Ambrose Bierce once defined the concept of faith somewhat humorously, but poignantly: "A Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel". Any person who accepts as true an unverified statement, which is also in conflict with all available factual knowledge, is unable or unwilling to expose himself to the true nature of Objective Reality.

A person who bases his acts upon unsupported opinions has diminished his ability to cope with his environment in an optimal and efficient manner. This is the folly and the true price humans have to pay if they believe in supernatural beings and try to find a preordained purpose in their existence.

(emphasis mine)

Walter E. Requadt
http://www.rationality.net/




Edited by Veritas (04/24/06 10:48 AM)


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Mythology [Re: Veritas]
    #5547477 - 04/23/06 01:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Why yes I agree wholeheartedly. The closing paragraph ties in very nicely with my recent thread on "Honesty and the Arbitrary".

Good read, indeed.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Mythology [Re: Veritas]
    #5547708 - 04/23/06 02:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"A person who bases his acts upon unsupported opinions has diminished his ability to cope with his environment in an optimal and efficient manner."

Any support for this assumption?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Mythology [Re: Veritas]
    #5547791 - 04/23/06 03:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hehe, that sounds like Apologetics  :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Mythology [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5547799 - 04/23/06 03:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Hehe, that sounds like Apologetics  :lol:



Indeed.  This author of this piece does not understand what mythology is.  Mythology is a way of conveying a spiritual truth through story-telling.  The story may or may not contain historical elements, but that is not important.  What's important is the message.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Mythology [Re: Silversoul]
    #5547868 - 04/23/06 03:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Hehe, that sounds like Apologetics  :lol:



Indeed.  This author of this piece does not understand what mythology is.  Mythology is a way of conveying a spiritual truth through story-telling.  The story may or may not contain historical elements, but that is not important.  What's important is the message.




this is exactly what my mythology professor had to say on the matter.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Mythology [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5548003 - 04/23/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

a tortise and a hare are to race. "But wait" says the tortise, "Let me have a head start, and I guarantee that I will beat you!"

The hare agreed, knowing that he could always run faster than the tortise.

So when the race started the tortise was halfway to the finish line. When the hare had gotten to where the tortise was, the tortise was halfway between the rabbit and the finish line (or 3/4 of the way to the finish line) . And when the hare had reached the 3/4 mark the tortise was still halfway to the finish line from the rabbit.

And so the tortise says, "you see! you'll never beat me. I will always be one tiny bit ahead of you!"

what this story demonstrates is a mathematical sum of an infinite series. 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 ... + (1/2)^n which is equal to 2.

And so through myth, truth and knowlegde are transmitted and understood in a subjective context. I've also heard the above story with Achilles as the hare and some other greek character as the tortise.

Taking such a literalistic and cynical approach to myth as nothing more than fiction, is to show complete lack of understanding of the nature of myth in culture.

No doubt that Reification (regarding something abstract as a material thing) causes distortion in truth. But it works in both ways, a double edged sword.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Mythology [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5548491 - 04/23/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
"A person who bases his acts upon unsupported opinions has diminished his ability to cope with his environment in an optimal and efficient manner."

Any support for this assumption?




Well, it seems self-evident to me, but here goes:

When someone decides to base their actions/decisions upon unsupported opinions, rather than factual evidence and real-life experience, they are putting on blinders which limit the scope of their perception.

Dogmatic belief takes the place of active discernment and critical thinking, rendering the individual cognitively inert. In this state, he is more easily manipulated by those in power, and less able to take effective action on his own behalf.

I can go on...


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Mythology [Re: Veritas]
    #5549208 - 04/23/06 09:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Personally, from a psychological perspective, I think this Walter E. Requadt is putting the cart before the horse.

A person who cannot confront the grim reality of his\her environment creates 'unsupported opinions' (ascetic ideals, in the Nietzschean sense) in order to cope with, justify, or mentally escape his\her situation. Religion can be considered a mechanism to contend with the difficulties of reality... a deceptive way of coping.

I have little doubt that a dogmatic Calvinist, in all his arrogant certianty, can more easily [psychologically] cope with and accept reality than the nihilist who seems totally alone and uncertian of his meaningless fate. Whereas the Calvinist can confront any situation with "This is how God intended it to be. I will be rewarded in Heaven for my suffering" thus gaining a sense of relief, fairness, and belonging; the nihilist can find no reason to justify his\her suffering.

But, without question, the nihilist appears much more honest, and much much more courageous.

Dogmatic belief takes the place of active discernment and critical thinking, rendering the individual cognitively inert.

What about unsupported opinions which are flexible?
What about supported opinions which are dogmatic?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Mythology [Re: Veritas]
    #5549277 - 04/23/06 09:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That view of myth is very 2 dimensional. Read some of Joseph Campbell's works on the subject. He proposes that myths are roadmaps to human experience. The reason all cultures share commonly themed myths is that each myth addresses a different aspect of the human psyche. There is much more going on here than just a bunch of funny stories about imaginary people. Myths are the patterns that our lives are founded upon. Take the myth of the hero. The hero overcomes a crisis using power gained from a real or symbolic death and rebirth. Jesus and Odin are both common examples of the hero myth. This process explained by the myth is the way by which the average person deals with adversity and change....it is a roadmap that is tried and true in human experience. These archetypes are embedded deeply in the psyche of every human. They were created by the evolution of our species. Any society that ignores them, ignores them at their peril. Read "The Hero With a Thousand Faces" which says this way more eloquently than I ever could.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_With_a_Thousand_Faces


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNunbuh_Chrubble
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Re: Mythology [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5550649 - 04/24/06 10:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

maniac>> but are you making a distinction between active/reactive nihilism? It seems to me that you are only referring to reactive nihilism.

hue>> I think you said it well!


--------------------


"This day is a lover..."

~Rumi


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Mythology [Re: Veritas]
    #5550775 - 04/24/06 11:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

For me, it sounds more like the handicap of rationality. It's rationality, or, at least those guys who claim those things above, who lack the understanding of the full human view upon existence, including spirituality and spiritual experiences, with all its possible perceptions and fail to integrate it into a useful model by completely refuting its value for it.
For me, that is simply throwing out the child with the bathwater and shows a lack of knowledge in those handicapped authors.
But I think I only summed up, what already was said.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Mythology [Re: Veritas]
    #5551055 - 04/24/06 01:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i don't agree with the sequence at all.
babies experience supernatural beings in their parents, usually their mothers especially are goddesses to the children.

as people grow, the child within continues, and the atavistic interpretation of superior beings follows at all times.

only with effort does one escape from this habit of expectation:
organized religion preys on this weakness of grown up children.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Mythology [Re: Nunbuh_Chrubble]
    #5551212 - 04/24/06 02:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think my statement applied to both active and reactive nihilists, but feel free to object.

(I didn't intend to convey that nihilists would certainly be depressed, unhappy, unable to cope, etc. Rather, I wanted to show how religious beliefs can be a convenient defense mechanism.)


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Mythology [Re: Veritas]
    #5553830 - 04/25/06 02:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Legion > Re?ligion


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OfflineRonc
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Re: The Handicap of Religiosity [Re: Veritas]
    #21899979 - 07/05/15 07:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Mr Requadts reasoning sounds logical on the surface. He however commits the same error that many others make by assuming that the lack of proof constitutes proof. He thus limits his vision and slams the door to honest inquiry. Better to say "We don't know yet..." than to jump to thus jump to conclusions.

There is much to legitimately criticize about Religion of course and we can talk about that. But to dismiss even the possibility of what many refer to as "the divine" is not necessary or desirable. Intellectual honesty requires that we give all ideas and evidence equal consideration without prejudice.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The Handicap of Religiosity [Re: Ronc]
    #21900023 - 07/05/15 08:18 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

With Herod as an example it is perhaps better to choose to stifle evidence rather than suffer the loss of influence.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: The Handicap of Religiosity [Re: Ronc]
    #21902332 - 07/05/15 06:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

He's committed quite a few more errors than that, he assumes the motives for religion, he only presents one reason why it came about and one explanation of religious peoples understanding of their mythology. It is a strawman, it's a sloppy attack on religion, lazy as is covers such a narrow band or what it is to be religious.


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