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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: dblaney]
#5547069 - 04/23/06 10:48 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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But in all actuality, the "not-so-bright" people still have intelligence - however fundamental it may be. Wherever there is happiness, there is intelligence behind that happiness. Rationality [acting in accordance with facts and reality] is the driving engine behind happiness, as Veritas and I agree on. This implies intelligence - or more specifically, the productive use of One's own intelligence.
One can therefore see that it is a lack of [a productive] purpose that is a great factor behind unhappiness. With no purpose in life, there is little to no purpose in the present moment. Without a purpose, One drifts along like a drifter, open to any arbitrary, malevolent whims - antipodes of rationality, read: open to self-destruction, read: neurosis [which is the excessive use of energy for unproductive purposes so that personal growth is hindered or stopped].
This is why purpose and focus/volition are two essential factors behind genuine happiness. Along with Rationality, they become the great Trinity that empassions, romanticizes and heightens One's life.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Ever met anyone with Down's syndrome?
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: dorkus]
#5547120 - 04/23/06 11:28 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quite a few, actually. I've met some that were quite intelligent, and capable of leading semi-independent lives, complete with careers.. and some who were truly lost in their own neurotic and aimless dynamisms to the point of requiring special care and attention by supervising adults. Some were as jolly as can be, while some were plainly bad tempered.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Ok.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: I certainly agree that intelligence itself isn't the key to happiness, but surely, it is a contributing factor?
I suppose I need to make the distinction between academic (or theoretical/factual) intelligence and practical (or applied) intelligence.
IMO, those with high levels of theoretical/factual intelligence (as measured by standard IQ tests) may or may not possess equal measures of applied intelligence (as measured by mental health, emotional resilience, ability to manage their daily life).
Practical or applied intelligence involves rationality, common sense, self-discipline, inter- and intra-personal understanding. This could also be called maturity or self-efficacy.
This "brand" of intelligence is what Howard refers to when he discusses right thinking.
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dr0mni
My Own Messiah


Registered: 08/21/04
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Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: Veritas]
#5547768 - 04/23/06 03:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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okay first off...
Veritas carries a torch for swami.
Is this discussion about whether ignorance is bliss?
Considering that a pet like a dog, cat, or even a hamster, can acheive happiness, I doubt that "intelligence" or "rational thinking" can be said to be fundemental.
I propose instead, a balance between what you've got, what you get, and what you can give.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: Psychoslut]
#5547785 - 04/23/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psychoslut said: I was just pointing out that the thread count spelled a w3rd.
eh wOt?
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....


Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Psychoslut said: I was just pointing out that the thread count spelled a w3rd.
eh wOt?
I didn't get it either.....? ***scratching head***
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: PhanTomCat]
#5548134 - 04/23/06 04:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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13337 = leeet, aka "elite."
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....


Registered: 09/07/04
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: Veritas]
#5548158 - 04/23/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Funny, I am somewhat of a geek, and have been working on computers my whole adult life, and I still can't keep up with the new languages...!
I guess there ARE drawbacks to not having children - to learn from.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: PhanTomCat]
#5548160 - 04/23/06 05:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I didn't learn that one from my kids...I'm a geek.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: dr0mni]
#5548540 - 04/23/06 06:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr0mni said: Is this discussion about whether ignorance is bliss?
Considering that a pet like a dog, cat, or even a hamster, can acheive happiness, I doubt that "intelligence" or "rational thinking" can be said to be fundemental.
I propose instead, a balance between what you've got, what you get, and what you can give.
Did you actually read any of the posts on this thread? No one is discussing whether ignorance is bliss.
Your hamster theory fails to account for rather significant differences in brain structure and consequent cognition. Humans are capable of making themselves miserable with their thoughts, just as they are capable of restoring happiness and wellbeing through correction of irrational thinking. Hamsters are capable of making their exercise wheel go round and round. As to the question of their happiness--good luck assessing the emotional state of a small furry rodent. 
If you read my description of applied intelligence, you will find that your pithy summation of what makes one happy has already been covered.
SET:
Quote:
rationality, common sense, self-discipline, inter- and intra-personal understanding. This could also be called maturity or self-efficacy.
SUBSET:
Quote:
a balance between what you've got, what you get, and what you can give.
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dr0mni
My Own Messiah


Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: Veritas]
#5548684 - 04/23/06 07:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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*puts hand on Veritas' wrist and slowly lowers the knife from throat*
and how are we to assume that a hamster is incapable of introspection and self realization? Of course a hamsters means of acheiving happiness are drastically different from a humans, but that does not mean that the two are unrelated or that one is irrelavent to the other.
And so a hamster runs on it's wheel to get excercise, which promotes health, which in turn promotes emotional well being. In fullfilling it's nature it finds happiness.
God bless us that we should find happiness so simply...
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: dr0mni]
#5548736 - 04/23/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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No knives, I'm a pacifist. 
Introspection and self realization are functions of the neocortex. Hamster brains are notably deficient in this department. This would allow them to be "happy" so long as their physical safety is not threatened.
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: Veritas]
#5548755 - 04/23/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"self realization is function of the neocortex"
link?
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: Deviate]
#5548854 - 04/23/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Neocortex, cerebrum, the cortex , or an alternative term, neopallium, also known as the superior or rational (neomammalian) brain, comprises almost the whole of the hemispheres (made up of a more recent type of cortex, called neocortex) and some subcortical neuronal groups. It corresponds to the brain of the primate mammals and, consequently, the human species. The higher cognitive functions which distinguish Man from the animals are in the cortex. MacLean refers to the cortex as "the mother of invention and father of abstract thought". In Man the neocortex takes up two thirds of the total brain mass. Although all animals also have a neocortex, it is relatively small, with few or no folds (indicating surface area and complexity and development). A mouse without a cortex can act in fairly normal way (at least to superficial appearance), whereas a human without a cortex is a vegetable.
http://www.ezls.fb12.uni-siegen.de/mkroedel/paul_maclean.html
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Deviate
newbie
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: Veritas]
#5548866 - 04/23/06 07:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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that link says nothing about self-realization, let alone that non-human animals cannot acheive it.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: Deviate]
#5548940 - 04/23/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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OK, I'll break it down for you:
The Reptilian Brain: rigid, obsessive, compulsive, ritualistic and paranoid, it is "filled with ancestral memories". It keeps repeating the same behaviours over and over again, never learning from past mistakes. This brain controls muscles, balance and autonomic functions, such as breathing and heartbeat.
The Limbic System (Paleomammalian brain): emotions and instincts, feeding, fighting, fleeing, and sexual behaviour. As MacLean observes, everything in this emotional system is either "agreeable or disagreeable". Survival depends on avoidance of pain and repetition of pleasure. The primary seat of emotion, attention, and affective (emotion-charged) memories.
The Neocortex: the superior or rational (neomammalian) brain. The higher cognitive functions which distinguish Man from the animals are in the cortex.
Self-realization is a higher cognitive function, requiring the ability to think in the abstract. It is not an emotion- or survival-based function, which would be processed by Limbic or Reptilian areas of the brain, respectively.
Quote:
Although all animals also have a neocortex, it is relatively small, with few or no folds (indicating surface area and complexity and development). A mouse without a cortex can act in fairly normal way (at least to superficial appearance), whereas a human without a cortex is a vegetable.
This underlines the difference between the primacy of neocortical function in humans & near-negligible role of neocortical function in rodents and other non-primates.
Therefore, self-realization, in the cognitive sense, is not neurologically possible for non-primates.
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Deviate
newbie
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: Veritas]
#5548965 - 04/23/06 08:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Self-realization is a higher cognitive function, requiring the ability to think in the abstract. It is not an emotion- or survival-based function, which would be processed by Limbic or Reptilian areas of the brain, respectivel
it does require the need to think in the abstract.
Therefore, self-realization, in the cognitive sense, is not neurologically possible for non-primates.
what is self-realization, in the cognitive sense?
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Thats a big hell yeah right there [Re: Deviate]
#5549003 - 04/23/06 08:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Self-realization is a higher cognitive function, requiring the ability to think in the abstract. It is not an emotion- or survival-based function, which would be processed by Limbic or Reptilian areas of the brain, respectivel
it does require the need to think in the abstract.
Yes, I just said that. 
Quote:
what is self-realization, in the cognitive sense?
It is what our species is named for: homo sapiens sapiens, or "thinking thinking man." We have the unique ability to think about our own thoughts, to recognize and analyze our own existence and personal qualities. It is theorized that other primates may have a rudimentary ability to self-recognize and realize that they are alive, but communication is still limited, and thus our knowledge is largely based upon brain structure similarities.
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