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InvisibleBanez
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Bonds finally goes deep
    #5545132 - 04/22/06 07:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

well Barry Bonds finally hit his first homerun of the season.. is it just me or is this guy wayy over hyped.. i mean.. statistically speaking he has got to be one of the worst OF in the league right now.. i mean i know hes not really healthy but still..


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InvisibleOldSpice
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5546838 - 04/23/06 08:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Kicking steroids is a bitch id imagine :smirk:


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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: OldSpice]
    #5547165 - 04/23/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

idk i like bonds.. hes met every drug test thrown at him.. what happened to innocent until proven guilty? is this not america?


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5547343 - 04/23/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

you havent followed baseball very long, right?

MLB didnt start testing until 2004 well after bonds produced the records he is known for. And as soon as they start testing, he is incredibly injury-prone - a major drawback to using steroids is when you quit, you are easily injured. Bonds did use steroids; he just said he used them unknowingly. Also, bonds has reportedly used human growth hormone which cannot be tested for.

I doubt he is still using today - which could explain how terrible he is now.

You also missed how f'ing large bonds got in in the late 90s - out of nowhere.

oh, and fuck barry bonds - he's a princess and a club-house cancer that contributed to giving baseball a bad name.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Juice is gonna getcha [Re: Banez]
    #5547390 - 04/23/06 01:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Barry Bonds Rookie Card




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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Vvellum]
    #5547396 - 04/23/06 01:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I know a few guys who played ball in the minor leagues that through friends who went on to play got to meet him. They said he is the biggest fucking asshole you'd ever meet.


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InvisiblePat Bateman, VP
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #5547417 - 04/23/06 01:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

he's a faggot

screw the "asterisk era"
kick them out and make their records null & void


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #5547981 - 04/23/06 04:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I believe that. I've read reports of how unfriendly he is to his own teammates and managers. he's a primadonna and a cheater.


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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Vvellum]
    #5547984 - 04/23/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

wow i guess just from not following baseball for very long, i kinda got the impression that he was a nice guy.. idk how.. it just seems like in his interviews and stuff he seems more of a victim of all this media frenzy


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OfflineHabitual_Liar
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Vvellum]
    #5547994 - 04/23/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

He's old and close to retirement. Let the poor guy go out with some dignity. Steroids or not he is one of the key players in baseball history.

and thats all coming from a ASTROS fan!!!!!!!


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Habitual_Liar]
    #5548016 - 04/23/06 04:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I have zero respect for cheaters - close to retirement or not.


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OfflineShroomRunner
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Vvellum]
    #5549553 - 04/23/06 10:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Cheating means breaking the rules. Baseball wasn't testing, so Bonds broke no rules.

He hasn't failed a test since they started testing.

Many others were on steroids, and he was hitting off many pitchers who used steroids.

As for him not being valuable, well, despite his lack of hitting, he's still 3rd in MLB in on base %, which is far more relevant than batting average.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/leag...mit&timeFrame=1

He is still a very feared hitter, and getting so many walks is quite valuable to his team.

If he just wanted the home run record, he could've had it easily by taking less walks. He could've asked for a trade to an AL team where he could've DH'ed. He could've broken the record years ago, but he still takes those walks more than any player ever has.

Regardless of what the media paints up, his teammates seem to defend him, and they seem to like him. Sweeney, Finley, and others talk about him being a friend. And as a Giants fan, he seems to do everything he can to help the team. He's no saint I'm sure, but that isn't the point.

I use drugs. I smoke pot, I take mushrooms, sometimes I use caffeine for some extra energy. If a adult man wants to be the greatest baseball player he can possibly be, I kind of wonder why it should be such a big deal what he chooses to put in his body.

Steroids or no steroids, Bonds 2001-2004 is the most dominant and greatest hitter baseball has ever seen, and perhaps with steroid testing now in place, perhaps no player will ever come close to being as good as he was. I enjoyed watching my favourite sport be mastered to the level he took it, regardless of the method.

Most of my favourite musicians drew inspiration or creativity from drug use, how is that so different.

In the business of fame and fortune, until you make the rules (testing for steroids), I think you might as well expect the players to do everything they can. They can still take amphetamines, and many chew tobacco, which actually could be considered a performance enhancer, as nicotine aids concentration and focus.

There's more ways of viewing this if you open your eyes a bit.


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OfflinePurpleKush
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Vvellum]
    #5550296 - 04/24/06 06:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
I believe that. I've read reports of how unfriendly he is to his own teammates and managers. he's a primadonna and a cheater.




yeah, in the locker room, he has to have a recliner in his locker while all the rest of the Giants just have normal chairs. he's got all kinds of special priveledges that are given only to him. in my opinion, that hurts the team mentality a lot.

i think in the end, Pujols is going to be a better hitter than bonds 2001-2004. he's a freak

i dont think his records should be wiped, because nobody knows who was using and who wasn't. is baseball going to investigate every allegation against a player and recall their records? it wouldnt be fair to do it to just barry bonds because he was the best.

i believe he will break babe ruths record this year and call it quits before he breaks hank aarons.


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Offlinekilroy69
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Habitual_Liar]
    #5550667 - 04/24/06 10:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Habitual_Liar said:
Steroids or not he is one of the key players in baseball history.




I am calling bullshit. Barry bonds is a cheater that does not deserve the hall of fame and he is for sure not a key player in baseball history. When I think of baseball I think of Cobb, Cy young , Reggie Jackson, Ted Williams, Pete Rose. Bonds never even enters my mind.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5551977 - 04/24/06 06:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cheating means breaking the rules. Baseball wasn't testing, so Bonds broke no rules.




Wrong.

MLB bans any controlled substance including steroids - a rule that dates back to 1991. link

In 2004, MLB only updated their testing procedure and punishment.

Quote:

He hasn't failed a test since they started testing.




HGH cannot be tested for.

Quote:

I use drugs. I smoke pot, I take mushrooms, sometimes I use caffeine for some extra energy. If a adult man wants to be the greatest baseball player he can possibly be, I kind of wonder why it should be such a big deal what he chooses to put in his body.




Using performance-enhancing drugs illegally to gain an unfair advantage over other players is cheating. Baseball does not mean shit if there are people cheating while others are honest and respect the rules and the game. That is why it is a big deal.

Quote:

Steroids or no steroids, Bonds 2001-2004 is the most dominant and greatest hitter baseball has ever seen, and perhaps with steroid testing now in place, perhaps no player will ever come close to being as good as he was. I enjoyed watching my favourite sport be mastered to the level he took it, regardless of the method.




So, you're cool with cheating?  :rolleyes: I guess you'd also be cool with doctored balls, throwing games, and umpire conspiracy. Whats the point of watching and playing a game that is fake? I guess you're more interested in seeing your team win than play fairly.

Quote:

Most of my favourite musicians drew inspiration or creativity from drug use, how is that so different.




There are no rules against using drugs in music. Apples and oranges.

Quote:

There's more ways of viewing this if you open your eyes a bit.




My eyes are wide open and I see, along with nearly everyone else, that Bonds is a cheater and his records dont mean shit.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Vvellum]
    #5552111 - 04/24/06 07:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I couldn't agree more. :thumbup:


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OfflineShroomRunner
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Vvellum]
    #5552146 - 04/24/06 07:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

sorry Shroomery uses a quoting style I haven't encountered before. 

Quote:

bi0 said:
Wrong.

MLB bans any controlled substance including steroids - a rule that dates back to 1991. link

In 2004, MLB only updated their testing procedure and punishment.

[quote/]

Not testing means they pretty much didn't have the rule.  For all we know every player could've been using, and most of the failed tests have been pitchers anyways.  So he was hitting off steroided pitchers.  And he still hasn't failed a test.

And since HGH can't be tested for, I guess we should just assume every other player is guilty of that too.  That seems to be your system.

  .
Quote:



So, you're cool with cheating?  :rolleyes: I guess you'd also be cool with doctored balls, throwing games, and umpire conspiracy. Whats the point of watching and playing a game that is fake? I guess you're more interested in seeing your team win than play fairly.

[quote/]

If a guy does steroids and runs the 100m in under 9 seconds (world record is 9.78 I believe so that would be ridiculous), I would still have seen a man run at such a crazy speed, and it would still be an amazing thing to watch.  Steroids or no steroids, it would look the same. 

Are you saying that if there was a rule against musicians using drugs that the Beatles or Nirvana or the Doors or the Eagles or whoever it is you like listening to would no longer sound good?  If they broke rules, the music wouldn't be good anymore?

Whether he broke the rules or not, he still hit better than anyone else has ever hit, and it was amazing to watch.  I don't see why my favourite songs would all of a sudden sound bad if the writers had broken rules in their lifestyle (and the drugs they use are illegal, so they are breaking rules anyways). 

I can choose to have less respect for the man because he used steroids (although I choose to believe in innocent until proven guilty and I also believe it's MLB's fault for not enforcing the rule), but the skill he had at the plate those 4 years is unmatched.


Edited by ShroomRunner (04/24/06 07:18 PM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5552197 - 04/24/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The difference is that there is no proven research that drugs make you a better musician, while there is plenty of data that steroids and the link will give you an advantage in sports. It's not fair to the other players who are clean. To keep up with cheaters, they have to use prohibited drugs which are unhealthy. The clean players should not have to do that.


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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5552241 - 04/24/06 07:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No, he's saying that comparing drug use in music and performance enhancing drugs in sports is comparing apples and oranges... It's not the same.

I think a good question that you should be asking is what's the difference between supplementing protein or using creatine compared to using steroids? A good answer would be the health risks involved... it's not fair to those who choose not to use steroids and sacrifice their health. So what if there were no consequences to health? It probably wouldn't be an issue.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5552407 - 04/24/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Not testing means they pretty much didn't have the rule.




No. Controlled substances like steroids are banned and against the MLB rules. MLB was lax on testing, yes, but it was still against the rules - thus cheating.

Quote:

And since HGH can't be tested for, I guess we should just assume every other player is guilty of that too. That seems to be your system.




There is ample evidence (so much so that Bonds might be indicted) that he used HGH. Look into the Balco scandal.

Quote:

Are you saying that if there was a rule against musicians using drugs that the Beatles or Nirvana or the Doors or the Eagles or whoever it is you like listening to would no longer sound good? If they broke rules, the music wouldn't be good anymore?




If musicians such as these joined an association that specifically banned psychoactive substances, they would be "cheaters" so to speak as well. Quality of their music would be irrelevent - they'd be cheating.

Quote:

Whether he broke the rules or not, he still hit better than anyone else has ever hit, and it was amazing to watch.




And if every player used HGH and steroids, I doubt he'd be as great as he has been. The playing field would be level and he would probably be average.

Quote:


I can choose to have less respect for the man because he used steroids (although I choose to believe in innocent until proven guilty and I also believe it's MLB's fault for not enforcing the rule), but the skill he had at the plate those 4 years is unmatched.




Yes, MLB has been to blame for their lax testing (and still is, perhaps). His skill has been unmatched largely for his steroid useage.


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OfflineReal_Poopypants
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Vvellum]
    #5553015 - 04/24/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Steroids can't give you skill. If Bonds used steroids then all you can say is that maybe some of his homeruns wouldn't have gone quite as deep as they did. Hitting a baseball is difficult.


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OfflineDeadmaker
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Real_Poopypants]
    #5553141 - 04/24/06 10:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, but the argument against that is that steroids help you stay healthier and help you heal from injuries quicker, thus making it easier to hit.


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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Deadmaker]
    #5554327 - 04/25/06 09:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

atleast he admitted yesterday that he wont ever break Hank Aarons record.. not like we all didnt already know that.. but yeah


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OfflineShroomRunner
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5554900 - 04/25/06 01:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Keep in mind that Barry's comments to themedia change from one day to the next. One day he says it's hislast year, the next day he says he's gonna play a few more years. He's always done that.

I'm still pretty convinced he'll break it. He's played this long, and if he took the steroids and all that, he must've wanted it, because he was the bestplay by far in the 90's before all this anyways (according to Bill James, the 2nd ranked player of the 90's was closer to the 10th player than the was to Bonds, 1-2 had a huge gap).

I can't see him pulling out just before getting it,despite what he says.

It wouldn't matter too much, Arod will fly by him about 5 years later barring any serious injuries to him.


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OfflineShroomRunner
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Redstorm]
    #5554923 - 04/25/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So are you saying that if some clinical studies were done that showed that marijuana, cocaine, lsd, caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, opium, or other drugs were beneficial to creativity you would no longer be interested in listening to music by artists that do drugs?

My point is that what he did was amazing to watch, whtehr drugs helped or not, just like putting on a Beatles album is amazing to listen to, whether drugs helped them or not.

And anyways, why is it that not one player has ever said they saw him use? Why hasn't he failed a test? Why is he still playing? Why do his teammates stand up for him? Why did nobody over the years ever frame him if so many people hate him? Why do Victor Conte, Matt Anderson, and all those guys continue to say they never gave anything to Barry, even after they've admitted giving to some others? Why is he just as big now as he was then?

Yeah, it seems like he probably used something, but home runs all around the league were down the last 2 years, and it's been mostly pitchers failing the tests anyways. The playing was, for the most part, just as level as it ever was before.

If anything, Babe Ruth's records should all have asterisks becuase there were no black players back then, and pretty much no hispanics either. And now the Japanese and Koreans are coming.

Barry dominated baseball more than any other player ever did, and he did it in an era where MLB has players from all over the world, and when some predict that 30 or 50% of players at the timewere on steroids (when they anonymously tested it was 5-7% which still translates to about 50 players).

MLB didn't test when other major sports did. The playing field was level, nobody was tested.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5555406 - 04/25/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomRunner said:
So are you saying that if some clinical studies were done that showed that marijuana, cocaine, lsd, caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, opium, or other drugs were beneficial to creativity you would no longer be interested in listening to music by artists that do drugs?




Absurd argument from the standpoint that music and the arts are not competitions with rules that define them. One great work of art does not knock another work of art off the screen. There is no limit to the amount of art that there can be. There is, however, a limit to how many major league baseball players there can be. And their compensation is directly related to their relative accomplishments. Art is not a proper metaphor.
Quote:



My point is that what he did was amazing to watch, whtehr drugs helped or not, just like putting on a Beatles album is amazing to listen to, whether drugs helped them or not.




It certainly was amazing to watch. And if that was all it was about then you would have a point. But it's not. What makes the things he did amazing was not the things in and of themselves but the context of those things, which was as part of a fair competition against people trying to stop you and/or surpass you. You might as well watch a homerun hitting contest. The beauty and drama of sport is in its unscripted nature and, at the highest level, competition between supreme practitioners. Bonds was certainly a supreme practitioner before 'roids. But he overstepped the bounds when he decided that he had different rules. And there most certainly was a rule against 'roids.
Quote:



And anyways, why is it that not one player has ever said they saw him use? Why hasn't he failed a test? Why is he still playing? Why do his teammates stand up for him? Why did nobody over the years ever frame him if so many people hate him? Why do Victor Conte, Matt Anderson, and all those guys continue to say they never gave anything to Barry, even after they've admitted giving to some others? Why is he just as big now as he was then?




So many questions. What was the first year of identifiable testing? I believe it was last year. Sheffield had testified that Bonds steered him to use, I think, this cream and told him it was legal. It wasn't. Smelly. Conte and those guys? I don't know. I don't know that Conte and Anderson identified anybody at all. They may just be stand up guys. They were not granted immunity so they didn't have to testify. Can you name anybody that they DID rat on? Why is he just as big? Don't know. But he sure does seem to be injured a lot doesn't he? Why is he still playing? Because he can. Wouldn't you? Why do his teammates stand up for him? This is just flat out crazy. He has more teammates who hate him than anybody else I ever heard of. Even Dave Kingman. Jeff Kent probably hopes his plane goes down.
Quote:



Yeah, it seems like he probably used something, but home runs all around the league were down the last 2 years, and it's been mostly pitchers failing the tests anyways. The playing was, for the most part, just as level as it ever was before.




This is more fallacious logic. Bonds doesn't compete against pitchers, he competes against other hitters. The history books don't compare Bonds' feats against pitchers but against other hitters. Were there other cheaters? Of course. That does not in any way justify Bonds' cheating. He certainly didn't have to cheat to keep his job, he was already a superstar. No he was pretty much just a petty, jealous punk. I somewhat understand his annoyance with two other cheaters (McGuire and Sosa) getting so much attention but it wasn't as if he was gonna lose his job or make less money. He could've been honest. He chose not to be. I have no respect for his choice.
Quote:



If anything, Babe Ruth's records should all have asterisks becuase there were no black players back then, and pretty much no hispanics either. And now the Japanese and Koreans are coming.





Babe Ruth out-homered TEAMS. Now shut the fuck up about the greatest player ever (who was probably at least half black).
Quote:




Barry dominated baseball more than any other player ever did, and he did it in an era where MLB has players from all over the world, and when some predict that 30 or 50% of players at the timewere on steroids (when they anonymously tested it was 5-7% which still translates to about 50 players).




No, it was more than that. I believe that the threshold that would trigger a testing policy was 10%. They obviously exceeded that.
Quote:


MLB didn't test when other major sports did. The playing field was level, nobody was tested.




I assume you are aware of something called the collective bargaining agreement. This did not allow testing. It does now. Now they test. I think it was a misguided position on the part of the union but that is neither here nor there. The union membership has woken up to the fact that their policy was harming the health of their members. Good for them. By the way, have you no concept of honor? Or sportsmanship? Or fair play? Do you only not cheat for fear of being caught? Fine, whatever. You live with the knowledge of what you have achieved is tainted. The idea that it is OK to do what you can get away with if nobody's looking is OK is somewhat pathetic. And let's not get all carried away with applying this to other walks of life. The essence of sport is playing within the rules. Any success achieved otherwise is lessened.

As a last point, I would like to clear up what I think is a misconception widely followed here. HGH can be tested for. But not from urine. It can be detected in a blood test. This, however, is not allowed under the CBA.


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OfflineShroomRunner
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5557012 - 04/25/06 11:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ShroomRunner said:
So are you saying that if some clinical studies were done that showed that marijuana, cocaine, lsd, caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, opium, or other drugs were beneficial to creativity you would no longer be interested in listening to music by artists that do drugs?




Absurd argument from the standpoint that music and the arts are not competitions with rules that define them. One great work of art does not knock another work of art off the screen. There is no limit to the amount of art that there can be. There is, however, a limit to how many major league baseball players there can be. And their compensation is directly related to their relative accomplishments. Art is not a proper metaphor.
Quote:



Actually, artists are competing with each other for limited recording contracts, and a limited consumer market.

My point is that what he did was amazing to watch, whtehr drugs helped or not, just like putting on a Beatles album is amazing to listen to, whether drugs helped them or not.




It certainly was amazing to watch. And if that was all it was about then you would have a point. But it's not. What makes the things he did amazing was not the things in and of themselves but the context of those things, which was as part of a fair competition against people trying to stop you and/or surpass you. You might as well watch a homerun hitting contest. The beauty and drama of sport is in its unscripted nature and, at the highest level, competition between supreme practitioners. Bonds was certainly a supreme practitioner before 'roids. But he overstepped the bounds when he decided that he had different rules. And there most certainly was a rule against 'roids.
Quote:



The beauty and drama of the sport were all still there, either way. The context you mentioned is true, but one can also view baseball objectively as not just a competition but an art also.Barry changedt he strategy of every game he appeared in from 2000 to the present (andd before that too but not as much), and the Giants were one of the most interesting teams to watch because of this.

And anyways, why is it that not one player has ever said they saw him use? Why hasn't he failed a test? Why is he still playing? Why do his teammates stand up for him? Why did nobody over the years ever frame him if so many people hate him? Why do Victor Conte, Matt Anderson, and all those guys continue to say they never gave anything to Barry, even after they've admitted giving to some others? Why is he just as big now as he was then?




So many questions. What was the first year of identifiable testing? I believe it was last year. Sheffield had testified that Bonds steered him to use, I think, this cream and told him it was legal. It wasn't. Smelly. Conte and those guys? I don't know. I don't know that Conte and Anderson identified anybody at all. They may just be stand up guys. They were not granted immunity so they didn't have to testify. Can you name anybody that they DID rat on? Why is he just as big? Don't know. But he sure does seem to be injured a lot doesn't he? Why is he still playing? Because he can. Wouldn't you? Why do his teammates stand up for him? This is just flat out crazy. He has more teammates who hate him than anybody else I ever heard of. Even Dave Kingman. Jeff Kent probably hopes his plane goes down.
Quote:



According to

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=297995&page=1

"Victor Conte, a man at the center of an anti-doping scandal that has rocked the top tiers of the sports world, tells "20/20" he tailored illegal drug regimens for top athletes, including Olympic track stars Marion Jones, Kelli White and Tim Montgomery."


The first year of identifiable testing was 2004. Bonds passed all tests that year and had the highest OPS in baseball history. Jeff Kent didnt like him, but guess what, a lot of people don't like Jeff Kent. As someone who follows the Giants closely, I can say that most of his teammates seem to like him. So you believe Sheffield? Sheffield was trying to save his image and dump the blame on Bonds, the scapegoat of the decade.

Yeah, it seems like he probably used something, but home runs all around the league were down the last 2 years, and it's been mostly pitchers failing the tests anyways. The playing was, for the most part, just as level as it ever was before.




This is more fallacious logic. Bonds doesn't compete against pitchers, he competes against other hitters. The history books don't compare Bonds' feats against pitchers but against other hitters. Were there other cheaters? Of course. That does not in any way justify Bonds' cheating. He certainly didn't have to cheat to keep his job, he was already a superstar. No he was pretty much just a petty, jealous punk. I somewhat understand his annoyance with two other cheaters (McGuire and Sosa) getting so much attention but it wasn't as if he was gonna lose his job or make less money. He could've been honest. He chose not to be. I have no respect for his choice.
Quote:



Of course Bonds competes against pitchers. He's hit home runs off 514 different pitchers I believe. 2 more pitchers tested positive today, and 5 out of the last 6 positive tests were pitchers. The batters of the steroid era, whether they were using steroids themselves or not, were hitting against a lot of pitchers who were getting extra help, help that pitchers of other generations were not getting.

I don't necessarily respect the choice to use steroids. And I know first hand what that choice is. I was a damn good pitcher (played on the same player development team as Ryan Dempster), but I was small. I worked my ass off in the gym and ate so much that I basically had an eating disorder. But I was 5'8" and the biggest I ever got was 160lbs. Scouts are interested in small guys, and the coaches play you less also, because they think you have less potential and they are also catering to the scouts. Steroids may have made a difference but I didn't go that way, luckily. 8 years later and I'm at my normal weight, 135. But anyways I know what it's like, and I think MLB should've had testing.







Babe Ruth out-homered TEAMS. Now shut the fuck up about the greatest player ever (who was probably at least half black).
Quote:



There's more to baseball than home runs. Batting averages were much higher in Ruth's days, and so while other players weren't hitting home runs, Babe actually played in the best hitting era of all time. The true test of dominance against your era is OPS+, and here's the list of the 50 most dominant seasons of all time....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPSplus_season.shtml

I'm not too quick to believe the whole McGwire/Sosa jealousy stuff. At this stage, i see no reason to look at "Game of Shadows" as anything other than a stab at making quick money by writing about a current issue that people are going nuts about. You seem quick to believe everything you hear from Sheffield and the writers, what makes them so credible?


Barry dominated baseball more than any other player ever did, and he did it in an era where MLB has players from all over the world, and when some predict that 30 or 50% of players at the timewere on steroids (when they anonymously tested it was 5-7% which still translates to about 50 players).




No, it was more than that. I believe that the threshold that would trigger a testing policy was 10%. They obviously exceeded that.
Quote:



The results were 5-7%.




I assume you are aware of something called the collective bargaining agreement. This did not allow testing. It does now. Now they test. I think it was a misguided position on the part of the union but that is neither here nor there. The union membership has woken up to the fact that their policy was harming the health of their members. Good for them. By the way, have you no concept of honor? Or sportsmanship? Or fair play? Do you only not cheat for fear of being caught? Fine, whatever. You live with the knowledge of what you have achieved is tainted. The idea that it is OK to do what you can get away with if nobody's looking is OK is somewhat pathetic. And let's not get all carried away with applying this to other walks of life. The essence of sport is playing within the rules. Any success achieved otherwise is lessened.






MLB signed that agreement that didn't allow testing. Then they capitalized on it by making tons of money off the longball explosion of the steroid era.

I like fair play, and I think the play would've been fair if there was testing. So many players were using steroids, and there's no way of knowing who was and who wasn't, so I don't see the point in singling out a few (especially ones who never failed a test or admitted to using).

Another example using music. If I found out that my favourite bands music was actually a fraud and that they paid someone to write all the songs, yeah I'd lose respect for them. But if I loved the songs, I'd still listen to them. So even if steroids are partly to be credited for Barry's success, I would still love to watch a tape of every at bat he had from 2001-2004. Don't you understand the parallels of this?

I'm not justifying what Bonds may have done. But in an era when so many players and pitchers did, and there's no way of evere knowing who did and who didn't, I think it all balances out, and Barry is getting scapegoated because he was the best of the era (by far) and was never liked by the media.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5557980 - 04/26/06 09:55 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

and went deep again last night..


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5559078 - 04/26/06 03:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, I love the Mets and all, and that was a great outing by Trachsel, but WHY DAMN YOU WHY GIVE THAT UP?!


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #5559219 - 04/26/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Why not? Barry's hitting about .220 and Alou is now hitting .361. It seems like pitchers should be trying to get Bonds out right now, and not putting him on base for Alou who right now is a much better hitter.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5559329 - 04/26/06 04:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

ah, the pinch hit homer by Bonds to tie the game. Thats 3 homers in his last 9 at bats.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5559362 - 04/26/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

ShroomRunner said:

"Another example using music. If I found out that my favourite bands music was actually a fraud and that they paid someone to write all the songs, yeah I'd lose respect for them. But if I loved the songs, I'd still listen to them. So even if steroids are partly to be credited for Barry's success, I would still love to watch a tape of every at bat he had from 2001-2004. Don't you understand the parallels of this?

I'm not justifying what Bonds may have done. But in an era when so many players and pitchers did, and there's no way of evere knowing who did and who didn't, I think it all balances out, and Barry is getting scapegoated because he was the best of the era (by far) and was never liked by the media. "


No, I still don't think the music thing parallels it at all. If what Bonds was doing was strictly, say, a dance performance, or a home run hitting contest it would be. But it's not. A sport is defined by and only has interest because there are rules. Essentially he and the other cheaters decided to be soccer players who could use their hands. Kind of fucks up the game of soccer, doesn't it, when some players can use their hands?

Scapegoated? No scapegoated refers to someone who is blamed for the crimes of others. Oh no, the crimes Bonds is getting blasted for are his and his alone. He's getting more attention because he is closing in on a huge record and has been so good even when he was clean. He's also a complete asshole. The only person I remember the press hating more was Dave Kingman. I don't remember hearing about anybody more despised by his teammates than him, except maybe Reggie, another gold-plated asshole.

One of my favorite baseball stories involves Jackson bragging on the plane about his IQ being 150 (or something like that). Mickey Rivers piped up and asked, "150? What's that, out of a thousand?" Priceless


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5559567 - 04/26/06 05:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomRunner said:
ah, the pinch hit homer by Bonds to tie the game. Thats 3 homers in his last 9 at bats.




Oh, he must have found a new steroid that they don't test for.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5559669 - 04/26/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Exactly, the media hates him so they write any shit they can about him. And people seem to believe it.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Deadmaker]
    #5559677 - 04/26/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Gotta love that guilty no matter what attitude people have. If he sucks, it's because he's not on them anymore. If he's good, it's because he's found something new.

Love that pathetic logic.


Edited by ShroomRunner (04/26/06 06:41 PM)


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5559695 - 04/26/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hey dipshit, it was sarcasm.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Deadmaker]
    #5559808 - 04/26/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It seemed like it was actually, but based on the replies in this thread, I actually believed it. They all believe everything the media says, they'd probably believe Barry was the devil or something if the media told them it was so.

Anyways, I edited one word of my post for you, since we're on the same page on that issue.

To re-explain in another way how i appreciated watching Bonds's acheivements.

I got to see the effect on games that a guy slugging .863 has. I got to see how shard a players swing and eye has to be to acheive that , and how hard a guy with a .863 slg hits the ball. I got to see the effect a player with a .609 on base % has the game. I got to see how intimidated opposing teams are of a guy that good. I got to see a batter who hammered practically everything in the zone. I got to see how big and strong a guy that good had to be, how hard he had to hit the ball, and how every inning he batted in had a completely different feel.

People who saw Ruth saw something extraordinary like this. People who saw Barry Bonds also did. Having a player as good as Barry in the game taught us alot of things about the game, things that required a completely extraordinary player to show us.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5560316 - 04/26/06 08:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

...but he cheated, so all of that doesnt mean much to non-giants fans.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Vvellum]
    #5562029 - 04/27/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

palmerio cheated, mcquire cheated, sosa cheated.. the list continues and continues.. why the fuck is it soo focused on bonds?


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5562450 - 04/27/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Because 1)this thread was about Bonds 2)be currently holds the record for most homers in a season.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5562539 - 04/27/06 11:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

he is close to breaking babe ruth's HR record...this is a discussion about barry bonds, no?


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Vvellum]
    #5562689 - 04/27/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What happened on the field still happened, regardless of why it happened.

Seems like others felt the same way, since Giants road attendance was consistently the highest in the league.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5562968 - 04/27/06 02:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Drugs are bad kids!


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5563305 - 04/27/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yeah redstorm, and bi0.. you guys are right.. i more meant.. why was the media/ MLB focus on bonds only.. not the discussion in here..

were steriods even around in the days of Hank Aaron and Babe Ruth? sorry if thats a stupid question


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5563344 - 04/27/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It's well known that Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, and others took amphetamines. And many players still do, and reportedly they're more commonly used than steroids were. Steroids have been around since WW2, and we'll never know if Mays or Aaron or any of those players used, no better than we'll ever know who used in the last 15 years.

Steroids were not around in the days of Ruth, although alcohol was illegal and he got supplies and drank heavily despite the law. Balls that bounced over the fence back in Ruth's day were also considered home runs, whereas today they are called doubles.

What happens on the field happens on the field. If MLB disproved of something that was going on, it was their job to do something about it at the time and not be a bunch of cry-babies years later when a media-hated and less marketable player like Barry Bonds made the big acheivements and not the media-friendly and marketable Ken Griffey Jr, who looked like the guy to do all this before he started hitting the injury bug.


Edited by ShroomRunner (04/27/06 03:44 PM)


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5563363 - 04/27/06 03:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yeah i knew about the whole amphetamine thing.. i just think the MLB has taken the right steps.. by banning steriods.. i think its clear that Bonds has stopped taking steriods..

I guess my major problem is.. sure bonds and others have cheated.. but on that same note.. Hank Aaron and other greats probably cheated also.. just because it happened a long time ago.. people seem to just give them a free pass..


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5563512 - 04/27/06 04:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Free pass? What the fuck. Is any singular achievement open to groundless suspicion by you? No one has ever, to my knowledge, alleged that Aaron did anything against the rules to enhance his performance. And if you don't think he was one of the most heavily scrutinized players ever you are just crazy. To have a, horrors, nigger eclipsing Ruth was just way too much for a lot of people.

As far as the rule on ground rule doubles, it was changed in '31 so a significant number of Ruth's taters occurred while that was the rule. I don't know how many of his homers were of that nature but you can probably extrapolate from today's ratio of homers to ground rule doubles, which is pretty high. The truly astonishing thing about Ruth, though, is that he outhomered whole teams. You can only be judged in the era in which you perform and I have to say that to this day there has never been a player who rose above the rest like Ruth did. The only equivalent I can come up with in any sport is Gretzky and even he doesn't really come that close.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5563536 - 04/27/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yeah i have never claimed im very intelligent about baseball.. because im not.. i was responding to a previous posts that said that hank aaron was known for amphetamine use.. and free pass? people booing him because he was a nigger doesnt mean that he was interigated by the media and made to look like a criminal

as for ruth.. really all i know about him, is how great of a player he was.. nothing more


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5563874 - 04/27/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The Ruth thing was for ShroomRunner. The Aaron point was that there were lots and lots of people who were quite eager to get something on him. They couldn't.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5564351 - 04/27/06 08:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yeah but really wasnt aaron's amphetamine use cheating too. i know it wasnt against MLB rules at the time, but did it not give him an unfair advantage?


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5567255 - 04/28/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There is no evidence whatsoever that Aaron used amphetamines. The only way anybody ever ties Aaron to amphetamine use is by saying, "Everybody did it then so he must have been too." Two things.
1. That proves nothing related to Aaron's alleged use.
2. If everybody is doing it where is the edge?

Really, you'd think they would have come up with something more than innuendo by now.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5568100 - 04/28/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

ok i guess.. as someone who hasnt been around the game of baseball for very long.. i feel like the whole game of baseball is filled with cheaters, inequality (that whole salary cap deal), and just isnt nearly as organized or respected as other sports


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5568176 - 04/28/06 07:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I believe that it is incorrect to think that there is more cheating in baseball than in either the other big sports here plus soccer plus cycling plus whatever weird sport anybody else has. I think the percentage of people willing to cheat is pretty consistent across all sports.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5568194 - 04/28/06 07:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i dont think so at all.. soccer, there is rarely problems with those guys.. football, occasional problem.. you have more arrest issues with football players, but then again.. ur dealing with 30+ teams which have 50+ players on each team.. ur bound to have some problems there..

no sport has as big of a drug problem as baseball.. probably because baseball is the only sport where steriods can have THAT huge of an impact.. but then again this is only my opinion


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5568307 - 04/28/06 08:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No nonono no. Steroids can have the greatest effect in football and cycling and have been huge scandals in both sports. Soccer too, although we don't hear about it much here.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5569889 - 04/29/06 11:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OHSBrave06 said:
i dont think so at all.. soccer, there is rarely problems with those guys.. football, occasional problem.. you have more arrest issues with football players, but then again.. ur dealing with 30+ teams which have 50+ players on each team.. ur bound to have some problems there..

no sport has as big of a drug problem as baseball.. probably because baseball is the only sport where steriods can have THAT huge of an impact.. but then again this is only my opinion




umm, did you just pull that out of your ass? Havent you noticed the huge anti-doping movement in, say, the olympics? last I check the olympics featured a huge variety of sports - all of which have had troubles with doping or have the potential to.


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Vvellum]
    #5569918 - 04/29/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

yeah i didnt even think about the olympics.. but ur def right.. i was more thinking of team sports in the united states.. i think in individual sports there is a lot more risk and its more appealing to people to want to use them.. u dont see as much with the olympic team sports thou


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5570351 - 04/29/06 01:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well, now that he's heated up he's 1st in baseball in OBP but also 18th best in the league in OPS, so it's reasonable to say he's been the 1th best offensive player so far this year. Not so shabby anymore.

And here are his comments yesterday about teammates Alou and Finley.

"He (alou) doesn't need me and I don't need him," Bonds said. "We're both good ballplayers. He's always going to do a job, regardless, whether I'm there or not."

Alou will get that chance Saturday. He'll remain in right field with Bonds out of the starting lineup in lieu of center fielder Steve Finley. Randy Winn will shift over to replace Bonds in left field.

"That's why we got Steve over here," Bonds said about the veteran player who was obtained this past offseason from the Los Angeles Angels for third baseman Edgardo Alfonzo. "He's a good player and a great teammate. He needs to be in the game as much as I do. Right now, everything is working out good. I'm not sitting a long time and he's not sitting a long time. It's great."


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5571120 - 04/29/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

hmm maybe u got the impression that i dont like bonds.. but i actually do.. i think hes a good player.. i dont know much about his personality but i dont dislike him 1 bit


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5571324 - 04/29/06 06:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Bonds knows how good he is and has ultra confidence
He doesnt wanna sit on the sidelines this year
I expect a great year from him
Im waiting to see what Oswalt is gonna throw to him this year
Dont forget that Nolan and Roger have been teaching Oswalt for a few years now :thumbup:


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So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: OldSpice]
    #5571516 - 04/29/06 07:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

oswalt has been playing amazing this year.. a couple picthers who still continue to impress me this season include pedro martinez, maddox, schilling, chris carpenter, dontrelle willis, and even aaron harring


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Offlinekilroy69
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Real_Poopypants]
    #5576733 - 05/01/06 10:18 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Real_Poopypants said:
Steroids can't give you skill. If Bonds used steroids then all you can say is that maybe some of his homeruns wouldn't have gone quite as deep as they did. Hitting a baseball is difficult.




Yes hitting a baseball is not an easy thing, however if you have good/great skills already using roids will make you that much better. I have seen many balls already that if bonds was on the juice would have went out. Instead they were long fly outs.


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Invisiblesucklesworth
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5577733 - 05/01/06 03:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)



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InvisibleOldSpice
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5589099 - 05/04/06 05:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Bonds went 0 for 3 yesterday :handth:


--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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OfflineInfrared
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: OldSpice]
    #5589532 - 05/04/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

and got smacked in the noggin by a ball :rofl: 

oh god that was soooo fucking hilarious.. he started stumbling around then fell to the ground... fucking best thing i saw all day


anyways.. hitting a baseball IS the toughest single action to do in all of sports... what other sport are you considered successful at if you fail 7 out of 10 times??? 

and steroids definately dont give you skill.. just extra strength obviously.. and more importantly a mental edge.. amphetamines do pretty much the same thing, just on a much shorter term basis.. and baseball players have been doing amphetamines for a long long time.. ive heard accounts that back in the day (60's, 70's, 80's), every club house had one pot of coffee that would be spiked with amps


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OfflineInfrared
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Infrared]
    #5589547 - 05/04/06 10:38 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)



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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Infrared]
    #5590568 - 05/04/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

infrared.. im guessing u have seen the series "Baseball">? considering u have used a direct quote from it.. just curious.. but i agree.. it is the only sport where u are considered GREAT if u succeed 1/3 of the time


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OfflineInfrared
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
    #5591153 - 05/04/06 07:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i dunno i mightve seen it, i dont have cable so i dont get to watch much espn... i usually just watch my local teams. is it a good series? i might check it out.. i usually like watching stuff like that

thats just a pretty common stat/quote that ive heard several times.. it just really brings out how tough it is


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InvisibleBanez
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Infrared]
    #5591497 - 05/04/06 08:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

yeah.. idk i think its several years old.. its not on espn ne more.. my world studies teacher just let us watch it for a couple days.. it is a great series showing everything from the beginning of baseball, thru the racial barrier, and all the way up until mark mcgwire and sosa


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