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Real_Poopypants
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Vvellum]
#5553015 - 04/24/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Steroids can't give you skill. If Bonds used steroids then all you can say is that maybe some of his homeruns wouldn't have gone quite as deep as they did. Hitting a baseball is difficult.
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Deadmaker
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Yeah, but the argument against that is that steroids help you stay healthier and help you heal from injuries quicker, thus making it easier to hit.
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Banez
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Deadmaker]
#5554327 - 04/25/06 09:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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atleast he admitted yesterday that he wont ever break Hank Aarons record.. not like we all didnt already know that.. but yeah
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ShroomRunner
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
#5554900 - 04/25/06 01:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Keep in mind that Barry's comments to themedia change from one day to the next. One day he says it's hislast year, the next day he says he's gonna play a few more years. He's always done that.
I'm still pretty convinced he'll break it. He's played this long, and if he took the steroids and all that, he must've wanted it, because he was the bestplay by far in the 90's before all this anyways (according to Bill James, the 2nd ranked player of the 90's was closer to the 10th player than the was to Bonds, 1-2 had a huge gap).
I can't see him pulling out just before getting it,despite what he says.
It wouldn't matter too much, Arod will fly by him about 5 years later barring any serious injuries to him.
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ShroomRunner
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Redstorm]
#5554923 - 04/25/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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So are you saying that if some clinical studies were done that showed that marijuana, cocaine, lsd, caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, opium, or other drugs were beneficial to creativity you would no longer be interested in listening to music by artists that do drugs?
My point is that what he did was amazing to watch, whtehr drugs helped or not, just like putting on a Beatles album is amazing to listen to, whether drugs helped them or not.
And anyways, why is it that not one player has ever said they saw him use? Why hasn't he failed a test? Why is he still playing? Why do his teammates stand up for him? Why did nobody over the years ever frame him if so many people hate him? Why do Victor Conte, Matt Anderson, and all those guys continue to say they never gave anything to Barry, even after they've admitted giving to some others? Why is he just as big now as he was then?
Yeah, it seems like he probably used something, but home runs all around the league were down the last 2 years, and it's been mostly pitchers failing the tests anyways. The playing was, for the most part, just as level as it ever was before.
If anything, Babe Ruth's records should all have asterisks becuase there were no black players back then, and pretty much no hispanics either. And now the Japanese and Koreans are coming.
Barry dominated baseball more than any other player ever did, and he did it in an era where MLB has players from all over the world, and when some predict that 30 or 50% of players at the timewere on steroids (when they anonymously tested it was 5-7% which still translates to about 50 players).
MLB didn't test when other major sports did. The playing field was level, nobody was tested.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
#5555406 - 04/25/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
ShroomRunner said: So are you saying that if some clinical studies were done that showed that marijuana, cocaine, lsd, caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, opium, or other drugs were beneficial to creativity you would no longer be interested in listening to music by artists that do drugs?
Absurd argument from the standpoint that music and the arts are not competitions with rules that define them. One great work of art does not knock another work of art off the screen. There is no limit to the amount of art that there can be. There is, however, a limit to how many major league baseball players there can be. And their compensation is directly related to their relative accomplishments. Art is not a proper metaphor. Quote:
My point is that what he did was amazing to watch, whtehr drugs helped or not, just like putting on a Beatles album is amazing to listen to, whether drugs helped them or not.
It certainly was amazing to watch. And if that was all it was about then you would have a point. But it's not. What makes the things he did amazing was not the things in and of themselves but the context of those things, which was as part of a fair competition against people trying to stop you and/or surpass you. You might as well watch a homerun hitting contest. The beauty and drama of sport is in its unscripted nature and, at the highest level, competition between supreme practitioners. Bonds was certainly a supreme practitioner before 'roids. But he overstepped the bounds when he decided that he had different rules. And there most certainly was a rule against 'roids.Quote:
And anyways, why is it that not one player has ever said they saw him use? Why hasn't he failed a test? Why is he still playing? Why do his teammates stand up for him? Why did nobody over the years ever frame him if so many people hate him? Why do Victor Conte, Matt Anderson, and all those guys continue to say they never gave anything to Barry, even after they've admitted giving to some others? Why is he just as big now as he was then?
So many questions. What was the first year of identifiable testing? I believe it was last year. Sheffield had testified that Bonds steered him to use, I think, this cream and told him it was legal. It wasn't. Smelly. Conte and those guys? I don't know. I don't know that Conte and Anderson identified anybody at all. They may just be stand up guys. They were not granted immunity so they didn't have to testify. Can you name anybody that they DID rat on? Why is he just as big? Don't know. But he sure does seem to be injured a lot doesn't he? Why is he still playing? Because he can. Wouldn't you? Why do his teammates stand up for him? This is just flat out crazy. He has more teammates who hate him than anybody else I ever heard of. Even Dave Kingman. Jeff Kent probably hopes his plane goes down.Quote:
Yeah, it seems like he probably used something, but home runs all around the league were down the last 2 years, and it's been mostly pitchers failing the tests anyways. The playing was, for the most part, just as level as it ever was before.
This is more fallacious logic. Bonds doesn't compete against pitchers, he competes against other hitters. The history books don't compare Bonds' feats against pitchers but against other hitters. Were there other cheaters? Of course. That does not in any way justify Bonds' cheating. He certainly didn't have to cheat to keep his job, he was already a superstar. No he was pretty much just a petty, jealous punk. I somewhat understand his annoyance with two other cheaters (McGuire and Sosa) getting so much attention but it wasn't as if he was gonna lose his job or make less money. He could've been honest. He chose not to be. I have no respect for his choice.Quote:
If anything, Babe Ruth's records should all have asterisks becuase there were no black players back then, and pretty much no hispanics either. And now the Japanese and Koreans are coming.
Babe Ruth out-homered TEAMS. Now shut the fuck up about the greatest player ever (who was probably at least half black).Quote:
Barry dominated baseball more than any other player ever did, and he did it in an era where MLB has players from all over the world, and when some predict that 30 or 50% of players at the timewere on steroids (when they anonymously tested it was 5-7% which still translates to about 50 players).
No, it was more than that. I believe that the threshold that would trigger a testing policy was 10%. They obviously exceeded that.
Quote:
MLB didn't test when other major sports did. The playing field was level, nobody was tested.
I assume you are aware of something called the collective bargaining agreement. This did not allow testing. It does now. Now they test. I think it was a misguided position on the part of the union but that is neither here nor there. The union membership has woken up to the fact that their policy was harming the health of their members. Good for them. By the way, have you no concept of honor? Or sportsmanship? Or fair play? Do you only not cheat for fear of being caught? Fine, whatever. You live with the knowledge of what you have achieved is tainted. The idea that it is OK to do what you can get away with if nobody's looking is OK is somewhat pathetic. And let's not get all carried away with applying this to other walks of life. The essence of sport is playing within the rules. Any success achieved otherwise is lessened.
As a last point, I would like to clear up what I think is a misconception widely followed here. HGH can be tested for. But not from urine. It can be detected in a blood test. This, however, is not allowed under the CBA.
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ShroomRunner
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: zappaisgod]
#5557012 - 04/25/06 11:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
ShroomRunner said: So are you saying that if some clinical studies were done that showed that marijuana, cocaine, lsd, caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, opium, or other drugs were beneficial to creativity you would no longer be interested in listening to music by artists that do drugs?
Absurd argument from the standpoint that music and the arts are not competitions with rules that define them. One great work of art does not knock another work of art off the screen. There is no limit to the amount of art that there can be. There is, however, a limit to how many major league baseball players there can be. And their compensation is directly related to their relative accomplishments. Art is not a proper metaphor. Quote:
Actually, artists are competing with each other for limited recording contracts, and a limited consumer market.
My point is that what he did was amazing to watch, whtehr drugs helped or not, just like putting on a Beatles album is amazing to listen to, whether drugs helped them or not.
It certainly was amazing to watch. And if that was all it was about then you would have a point. But it's not. What makes the things he did amazing was not the things in and of themselves but the context of those things, which was as part of a fair competition against people trying to stop you and/or surpass you. You might as well watch a homerun hitting contest. The beauty and drama of sport is in its unscripted nature and, at the highest level, competition between supreme practitioners. Bonds was certainly a supreme practitioner before 'roids. But he overstepped the bounds when he decided that he had different rules. And there most certainly was a rule against 'roids.Quote:
The beauty and drama of the sport were all still there, either way. The context you mentioned is true, but one can also view baseball objectively as not just a competition but an art also.Barry changedt he strategy of every game he appeared in from 2000 to the present (andd before that too but not as much), and the Giants were one of the most interesting teams to watch because of this.
And anyways, why is it that not one player has ever said they saw him use? Why hasn't he failed a test? Why is he still playing? Why do his teammates stand up for him? Why did nobody over the years ever frame him if so many people hate him? Why do Victor Conte, Matt Anderson, and all those guys continue to say they never gave anything to Barry, even after they've admitted giving to some others? Why is he just as big now as he was then?
So many questions. What was the first year of identifiable testing? I believe it was last year. Sheffield had testified that Bonds steered him to use, I think, this cream and told him it was legal. It wasn't. Smelly. Conte and those guys? I don't know. I don't know that Conte and Anderson identified anybody at all. They may just be stand up guys. They were not granted immunity so they didn't have to testify. Can you name anybody that they DID rat on? Why is he just as big? Don't know. But he sure does seem to be injured a lot doesn't he? Why is he still playing? Because he can. Wouldn't you? Why do his teammates stand up for him? This is just flat out crazy. He has more teammates who hate him than anybody else I ever heard of. Even Dave Kingman. Jeff Kent probably hopes his plane goes down.Quote:
According to
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=297995&page=1
"Victor Conte, a man at the center of an anti-doping scandal that has rocked the top tiers of the sports world, tells "20/20" he tailored illegal drug regimens for top athletes, including Olympic track stars Marion Jones, Kelli White and Tim Montgomery."
The first year of identifiable testing was 2004. Bonds passed all tests that year and had the highest OPS in baseball history. Jeff Kent didnt like him, but guess what, a lot of people don't like Jeff Kent. As someone who follows the Giants closely, I can say that most of his teammates seem to like him. So you believe Sheffield? Sheffield was trying to save his image and dump the blame on Bonds, the scapegoat of the decade.
Yeah, it seems like he probably used something, but home runs all around the league were down the last 2 years, and it's been mostly pitchers failing the tests anyways. The playing was, for the most part, just as level as it ever was before.
This is more fallacious logic. Bonds doesn't compete against pitchers, he competes against other hitters. The history books don't compare Bonds' feats against pitchers but against other hitters. Were there other cheaters? Of course. That does not in any way justify Bonds' cheating. He certainly didn't have to cheat to keep his job, he was already a superstar. No he was pretty much just a petty, jealous punk. I somewhat understand his annoyance with two other cheaters (McGuire and Sosa) getting so much attention but it wasn't as if he was gonna lose his job or make less money. He could've been honest. He chose not to be. I have no respect for his choice.Quote:
Of course Bonds competes against pitchers. He's hit home runs off 514 different pitchers I believe. 2 more pitchers tested positive today, and 5 out of the last 6 positive tests were pitchers. The batters of the steroid era, whether they were using steroids themselves or not, were hitting against a lot of pitchers who were getting extra help, help that pitchers of other generations were not getting.
I don't necessarily respect the choice to use steroids. And I know first hand what that choice is. I was a damn good pitcher (played on the same player development team as Ryan Dempster), but I was small. I worked my ass off in the gym and ate so much that I basically had an eating disorder. But I was 5'8" and the biggest I ever got was 160lbs. Scouts are interested in small guys, and the coaches play you less also, because they think you have less potential and they are also catering to the scouts. Steroids may have made a difference but I didn't go that way, luckily. 8 years later and I'm at my normal weight, 135. But anyways I know what it's like, and I think MLB should've had testing.
Babe Ruth out-homered TEAMS. Now shut the fuck up about the greatest player ever (who was probably at least half black).Quote:
There's more to baseball than home runs. Batting averages were much higher in Ruth's days, and so while other players weren't hitting home runs, Babe actually played in the best hitting era of all time. The true test of dominance against your era is OPS+, and here's the list of the 50 most dominant seasons of all time....
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPSplus_season.shtml
I'm not too quick to believe the whole McGwire/Sosa jealousy stuff. At this stage, i see no reason to look at "Game of Shadows" as anything other than a stab at making quick money by writing about a current issue that people are going nuts about. You seem quick to believe everything you hear from Sheffield and the writers, what makes them so credible?
Barry dominated baseball more than any other player ever did, and he did it in an era where MLB has players from all over the world, and when some predict that 30 or 50% of players at the timewere on steroids (when they anonymously tested it was 5-7% which still translates to about 50 players).
No, it was more than that. I believe that the threshold that would trigger a testing policy was 10%. They obviously exceeded that.
Quote:
The results were 5-7%.
I assume you are aware of something called the collective bargaining agreement. This did not allow testing. It does now. Now they test. I think it was a misguided position on the part of the union but that is neither here nor there. The union membership has woken up to the fact that their policy was harming the health of their members. Good for them. By the way, have you no concept of honor? Or sportsmanship? Or fair play? Do you only not cheat for fear of being caught? Fine, whatever. You live with the knowledge of what you have achieved is tainted. The idea that it is OK to do what you can get away with if nobody's looking is OK is somewhat pathetic. And let's not get all carried away with applying this to other walks of life. The essence of sport is playing within the rules. Any success achieved otherwise is lessened.
MLB signed that agreement that didn't allow testing. Then they capitalized on it by making tons of money off the longball explosion of the steroid era.
I like fair play, and I think the play would've been fair if there was testing. So many players were using steroids, and there's no way of knowing who was and who wasn't, so I don't see the point in singling out a few (especially ones who never failed a test or admitted to using).
Another example using music. If I found out that my favourite bands music was actually a fraud and that they paid someone to write all the songs, yeah I'd lose respect for them. But if I loved the songs, I'd still listen to them. So even if steroids are partly to be credited for Barry's success, I would still love to watch a tape of every at bat he had from 2001-2004. Don't you understand the parallels of this?
I'm not justifying what Bonds may have done. But in an era when so many players and pitchers did, and there's no way of evere knowing who did and who didn't, I think it all balances out, and Barry is getting scapegoated because he was the best of the era (by far) and was never liked by the media.
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Banez
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
#5557980 - 04/26/06 09:55 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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and went deep again last night..
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OneMoreRobot3021


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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
#5559078 - 04/26/06 03:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, I love the Mets and all, and that was a great outing by Trachsel, but WHY DAMN YOU WHY GIVE THAT UP?!
-------------------- Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake. -Erik Davis
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ShroomRunner
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Why not? Barry's hitting about .220 and Alou is now hitting .361. It seems like pitchers should be trying to get Bonds out right now, and not putting him on base for Alou who right now is a much better hitter.
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ShroomRunner
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
#5559329 - 04/26/06 04:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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ah, the pinch hit homer by Bonds to tie the game. Thats 3 homers in his last 9 at bats.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
#5559362 - 04/26/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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ShroomRunner said:
"Another example using music. If I found out that my favourite bands music was actually a fraud and that they paid someone to write all the songs, yeah I'd lose respect for them. But if I loved the songs, I'd still listen to them. So even if steroids are partly to be credited for Barry's success, I would still love to watch a tape of every at bat he had from 2001-2004. Don't you understand the parallels of this?
I'm not justifying what Bonds may have done. But in an era when so many players and pitchers did, and there's no way of evere knowing who did and who didn't, I think it all balances out, and Barry is getting scapegoated because he was the best of the era (by far) and was never liked by the media. "
No, I still don't think the music thing parallels it at all. If what Bonds was doing was strictly, say, a dance performance, or a home run hitting contest it would be. But it's not. A sport is defined by and only has interest because there are rules. Essentially he and the other cheaters decided to be soccer players who could use their hands. Kind of fucks up the game of soccer, doesn't it, when some players can use their hands?
Scapegoated? No scapegoated refers to someone who is blamed for the crimes of others. Oh no, the crimes Bonds is getting blasted for are his and his alone. He's getting more attention because he is closing in on a huge record and has been so good even when he was clean. He's also a complete asshole. The only person I remember the press hating more was Dave Kingman. I don't remember hearing about anybody more despised by his teammates than him, except maybe Reggie, another gold-plated asshole.
One of my favorite baseball stories involves Jackson bragging on the plane about his IQ being 150 (or something like that). Mickey Rivers piped up and asked, "150? What's that, out of a thousand?" Priceless
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Deadmaker
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
#5559567 - 04/26/06 05:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
ShroomRunner said: ah, the pinch hit homer by Bonds to tie the game. Thats 3 homers in his last 9 at bats.
Oh, he must have found a new steroid that they don't test for.
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ShroomRunner
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: zappaisgod]
#5559669 - 04/26/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Exactly, the media hates him so they write any shit they can about him. And people seem to believe it.
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ShroomRunner
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Deadmaker]
#5559677 - 04/26/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Gotta love that guilty no matter what attitude people have. If he sucks, it's because he's not on them anymore. If he's good, it's because he's found something new. Love that pathetic logic.
Edited by ShroomRunner (04/26/06 06:41 PM)
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Deadmaker
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
#5559695 - 04/26/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hey dipshit, it was sarcasm.
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ShroomRunner
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Deadmaker]
#5559808 - 04/26/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It seemed like it was actually, but based on the replies in this thread, I actually believed it. They all believe everything the media says, they'd probably believe Barry was the devil or something if the media told them it was so.
Anyways, I edited one word of my post for you, since we're on the same page on that issue.
To re-explain in another way how i appreciated watching Bonds's acheivements.
I got to see the effect on games that a guy slugging .863 has. I got to see how shard a players swing and eye has to be to acheive that , and how hard a guy with a .863 slg hits the ball. I got to see the effect a player with a .609 on base % has the game. I got to see how intimidated opposing teams are of a guy that good. I got to see a batter who hammered practically everything in the zone. I got to see how big and strong a guy that good had to be, how hard he had to hit the ball, and how every inning he batted in had a completely different feel.
People who saw Ruth saw something extraordinary like this. People who saw Barry Bonds also did. Having a player as good as Barry in the game taught us alot of things about the game, things that required a completely extraordinary player to show us.
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Vvellum
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: ShroomRunner]
#5560316 - 04/26/06 08:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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...but he cheated, so all of that doesnt mean much to non-giants fans.
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Banez
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Vvellum]
#5562029 - 04/27/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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palmerio cheated, mcquire cheated, sosa cheated.. the list continues and continues.. why the fuck is it soo focused on bonds?
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Redstorm
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Re: Bonds finally goes deep [Re: Banez]
#5562450 - 04/27/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Because 1)this thread was about Bonds 2)be currently holds the record for most homers in a season.
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