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Offlinemr_kite
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Being Wrong
    #5544638 - 04/22/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

EG How do you tell a racist (s)he's wrong? How do you justify something which has no factual backup? This obviously revolves around morality as clearly the same argument - related to lack of factual proof - can't be applied to a racist as it can to, for example, a religious person. (By that I'm not implying that religious people are wrong or right  :crazy2:)

When people are just plain wrong it annoys me, especially when you can't make them see that.

I suppose this thread could equally be called "Being Right"...


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5544652 - 04/22/06 05:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There is no wrong or right. Not to try to sound all guru-like, but they are illusory.

Quote:

When people are just plain wrong it annoys me, especially when you can't make them see that.




this is quite possibly the most self-absorbed comment I have seen on these boards.

Things just are, and once you start acting and affecting things in your environment based on that ideology, instead of acting on the learned/made-up morals and ethics of yourself you will see that you act only in the present.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5544936 - 04/22/06 06:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Racism can be bashed quite easily. Simply ask the racist if he bases his ideologies upon theories about the 'most advanced' race on planet earth. He has to agree that the most advanced 'race' should be this, which exists for the longest time and had the most time for their evolution and development. Then explain, that human life started in Africa and that the black people are those, who as a race exist on planet earth for the longest time. In fact, it is assumed, that curly negro-hair is a sign for a further step in evolution.
And yes, of course there is wrong and right, as like there is good and bad.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlineporcupine
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5544962 - 04/22/06 07:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Racism can be bashed quite easily. Simply ask the racist if he bases his ideologies upon theories about the 'most advanced' race on planet earth. He has to agree that the most advanced 'race' should be this, which exists for the longest time and had the most time for their evolution and development. Then explain, that human life started in Africa and that the black people are those, who as a race exist on planet earth for the longest time. In fact, it is assumed, that curly negro-hair is a sign for a further step in evolution.
And yes, of course there is wrong and right, as like there is good and bad.




that doesn't make any sense to me. if black people arose first and an isolated group of them evolved into white people, that wouldn't make white people any less advanced.

anyway apart from that, i know a racist who frequently posts on the message board for my university. he bases his ideaologies on scientific studies that compare races and yes of course he uses studies which correct for cultural, economic and other factors. some of the biology majors spent an entire weekend debating him in a thread that got several hundred replies and they could not prove him wrong. i am not convinced that any races are innately more intelligent than others but after reading through that debate i came to accept it at least a real possibility. unlike him, i would never use it to justify racism though.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5545019 - 04/22/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Racism is usually perpetuated by anger and hatred. Hatred blinds and deludes the confused mind. These poor beings have such limited views that there destinations in life and perhaps death are certainly not going to be very pleasant. Have compassion for these beings who are trapped by illusion, and bathed in ignorance. A racist may not be right, but in their view, they are never wrong. This kind of egotism creates a deep cavern of suffering for them. So let us reflect a little, without judgment. Seeing the situation for how it is, and apply skilfull measn as the antidote. Right and wrong are just perceptual limitations. Equanimity's compassion is essential!


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Edited by Sinbad (04/22/06 07:41 PM)


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Offlinemichael_lifshitz
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Sinbad]
    #5545027 - 04/22/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nothing is wrong or right as long as you can argue it properly, right? I think so!


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: michael_lifshitz]
    #5545044 - 04/22/06 07:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Alas! The limitations of conceptual language!  :shocked: :wink::lol:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: porcupine]
    #5545243 - 04/22/06 08:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

porcupine said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Racism can be bashed quite easily. Simply ask the racist if he bases his ideologies upon theories about the 'most advanced' race on planet earth. He has to agree that the most advanced 'race' should be this, which exists for the longest time and had the most time for their evolution and development. Then explain, that human life started in Africa and that the black people are those, who as a race exist on planet earth for the longest time. In fact, it is assumed, that curly negro-hair is a sign for a further step in evolution.
And yes, of course there is wrong and right, as like there is good and bad.




that doesn't make any sense to me. if black people arose first and an isolated group of them evolved into white people, that wouldn't make white people any less advanced.
[...]



One can see modern races simply in the sense of 'youth', fresh, unexperienced, like the children of some human.

And yes, right and wrong, good and bad are concepts strongly connected to someones 'wants' and 'needs'. But those concepts again are strongly bond to the states of existing identities (ie. for iron to remain iron, everything is bad or wrong that lets it corrode and dissolve).


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Sinbad] * 1
    #5545387 - 04/22/06 09:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Racism is usually perpetuated by anger and hatred. Hatred blinds and deludes the confused mind.




Racism IS anger and/or hatred, more than likely perpetuated by fear.... 
Some fear perhaps being for individual specific reasons due to bad experiences in one's life - thus idealized by the fearful to make it a generalized hatred....
Then there is also the "upbringing", "peer induced", "follow the bandwagon" types of general hatred, on a basis without reason - (which is ignorant in my humble opinion)....
IE., "Why do you hate this type of person?"  --  "I just do."

I am not sure how "hatred blinds and deludes the confused mind", maybe you can explain more about your thoughts on how hatred "confuses" a mind....




Quote:

These poor beings have such limited views that there destinations in life and perhaps death are certainly not going to be very pleasant.




**Some** people take comfort in a hatred P.O.V., and it makes them a "stronger" person in their own mind.... 
Though I agree that is a limited perspective, how would that negatively effect the general pleasantness of death and/or an individual's destination in life....?
There is "Passive Hatred" as well as "Aggressive Hatred"....




Quote:

Have compassion for these beings who are trapped by illusion, and bathed in ignorance.




Compassion, or tolerance...? 
(Ironic to have tolerance for an ignorant based intolerance...!?) 




Quote:

A racist may not be right, but in their view, they are never wrong. This kind of egotism creates a deep cavern of suffering for them.




How does being egotistical cause self suffering, in your P.O.V.....?




Quote:

So let us reflect a little, without judgment. Seeing the situation for how it is, and apply skillful means as the antidote.




I absolutely agree....    :thumbup:
There are good people and bad people (all a subjective perception of one's personal choices in morality, of course) and has nothing to do with race....




Quote:

Right and wrong are just perceptual limitations. Equanimity's compassion is essential!




I think for the most part, I agree with this as well, but would like to know your perspective of why you think it is "essential", and for whom is it "essential"...?



>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineGoldenserenity
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5545646 - 04/22/06 10:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What is the point of telling someone that they are wrong? What exactly is "wrong" and who determines it? When we label something as being wrong, it's based on our own thoughts, beliefs and morals as well as other factors in our life. What may be wrong to me may not be wrong to you and what was wrong say a hundred years ago is probably not wrong now.
You cannot force another to see your own views of things, and as you say...it's irritating when someone will not see your side of it, but...it's not up to any of us to prove or disprove anything. It's not up to any of us to point out anothers "wrongness" because we simply feel the other person isn't totally getting it. Getting what? Our points and views?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Goldenserenity]
    #5545751 - 04/22/06 10:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What really gets me is when someone tells another that they are wrong, but provide no understanding that supports their stance that one is wrong. Simply telling another that one is wrong, that one is ignorant, etc. etc, is clearly divisive, and intended as assuring others that oneself is right. Providing for an understanding, engaging in productive debate with those who express views that differ from one's own, bridges the gaps between one's conceptions of what is right and what is wrong, and develops all that are involved.

Being so assured that oneself is right is rather egotistical, in my opinion, as there is always a greater perspective that takes into account more aspects of reality, and such assurance naturally prevents oneself from becoming aware of a more encompassing perspective.

The fact that one would be annoyed by another's lack of understanding demonstrates that such a person is rather mentally undeveloped, honestly. They simply cannot accept the fact that everyone comes to this point in time and the related understanding that they hold naturally, that it could not be any other way. Their demands that others conform to their own views go unfufilled, naturally, and they suffer negative emotions as a result (annoyance, for example :smirk:).

I was recently involved in a simple test that included nearly a hundred individuals, in which we all had to count the "f's" in a paragraph. The wide variety of answers concerning how many "f's"there were clearly demonstrated how differently everyone perceived and interpreted reality, even when it pertained to a simple test. There, quite clearly, is no "right", and it is self-centered to think that there is. The fact that certain individuals feel so motivated that they are right that they are emotionally disrupted as a resuult of others that disagree with them says far more about themselves than those who are suspossedly "wrong". :lol:

i'm also incredibly drunk and tired, so why don't you all go fuck yourselves. :wink:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5546085 - 04/23/06 12:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
There is no wrong or right. Not to try to sound all guru-like, but they are illusory.

Quote:

When people are just plain wrong it annoys me, especially when you can't make them see that.




this is quite possibly the most self-absorbed comment I have seen on these boards.

Things just are, and once you start acting and affecting things in your environment based on that ideology, instead of acting on the learned/made-up morals and ethics of yourself you will see that you act only in the present.




That can't be true because there can only be no right if there is no truth. If there is no truth then there is nothing, becomes something can only be something if it is in fact... something, and that something that it is would then be the truth, and if that truth were claimed by someone they would be "right." There is truth to everything, and all opinions are either "right" or "wrong" in the end, but remain opinions as long as the person is unaware of evidence to fully validate their belief.

"Things just are"
That alludes to a right and wrong, because what things 'are' is the thing which, when claimed, makes a person right or wrong. When racist claims are made they are also either right, in accordance with truth, or wrong. And while a racist claim might even be correct, when taken as a localized generality, the conclusion is still probably not correct.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5546093 - 04/23/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'm right, you're wrong, nanner nanner nanner....!    :tongue2:

I went out drinking tonight too, and EVERYONE knows that drunk people can NEVER be wrong....    :lol:


Quote:

fireworks_god said:
i'm also incredibly drunk and tired, so why don't you all go fuck yourselves. :wink:
.
:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Doooood, your sig is different....!?    :confused:
Or is it just me....?    :shiftyeyes:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5546190 - 04/23/06 01:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nothing is wrong, Everything is permissible!


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5546439 - 04/23/06 02:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Quote:

psilocyberin said:
There is no wrong or right. Not to try to sound all guru-like, but they are illusory.

Quote:

When people are just plain wrong it annoys me, especially when you can't make them see that.




this is quite possibly the most self-absorbed comment I have seen on these boards.

Things just are, and once you start acting and affecting things in your environment based on that ideology, instead of acting on the learned/made-up morals and ethics of yourself you will see that you act only in the present.




That can't be true because there can only be no right if there is no truth. If there is no truth then there is nothing, becomes something can only be something if it is in fact... something, and that something that it is would then be the truth, and if that truth were claimed by someone they would be "right." There is truth to everything, and all opinions are either "right" or "wrong" in the end, but remain opinions as long as the person is unaware of evidence to fully validate their belief.

"Things just are"
That alludes to a right and wrong, because what things 'are' is the thing which, when claimed, makes a person right or wrong. When racist claims are made they are also either right, in accordance with truth, or wrong. And while a racist claim might even be correct, when taken as a localized generality, the conclusion is still probably not correct.





right, there is no obsrvable truth. Even the most objective scientific studies are still based upon the most primitive of mans subjective perception.
the steady rate of falling bodies in a vaccuum: only observable through our sense of perception, or measuring devices based on our perception.

So, I will state that there is no universal truth in this universe, only a personal truth.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5546442 - 04/23/06 02:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Racism can be bashed quite easily. Simply ask the racist if he bases his ideologies upon theories about the 'most advanced' race on planet earth. He has to agree that the most advanced 'race' should be this, which exists for the longest time and had the most time for their evolution and development. Then explain, that human life started in Africa and that the black people are those, who as a race exist on planet earth for the longest time. In fact, it is assumed, that curly negro-hair is a sign for a further step in evolution.
And yes, of course there is wrong and right, as like there is good and bad.




1) there is no definitive proof that life started in africa, if anything, it s tarted in an area of Pangea which is now known as africa.
2) Anyone who has read any chapter in the book "Gun, Germs,and Steel" will be able to easily refute any statements which you have made thus fAR.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5546446 - 04/23/06 02:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"So, I will state that there is no universal truth in this universe, only a personal truth."

Your statement is valid from your point of view only though and using your current mind. If you take into account an improved mind, more dimensions perhaps, you may end up at a different statement.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5546473 - 04/23/06 03:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

only through assumption with the help of a little ignorance. the nihilist and the existentialist have it "most correct" in the way that all phenomenon can not be proven beyond our own minds.

Sure, it is an opinion, and an impossibly proven fact that truth beyond our perceptions is in itself, impossible to prove, but that is only because the proof is in the pudding.

All observable phenomenon is based upon the assumptionn that our perception of what we consider reality is a constant and not a variable, and there is nothing you can do or say which can prove otherwise.... in fact, I dare you to try and prove the above statement wrong.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5546482 - 04/23/06 03:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Define what you think we consider reality and I'll answer your question.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5546495 - 04/23/06 03:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

reality is that which you consider to be real only as a default because of no other perceptual awareness other than that of your current perceptual awareness of your surroundings.

even dreams are a product of perceptual awareness of your surroundings, even though innacurate, there is a short period of time where we are immersed in that false reality, what makes you think that some conscious waking perception of reality is so much superior to a dream state?

i hate to get all existential or solipsist, but to honestly believe that one ideology is "more right" than any other is just pure ignoarance through self-absorbed conditioning.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5546499 - 04/23/06 03:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Also, I have no qualms about calling someone a nigger. Frankly, If I yell out the word, and you respond to it, apparently, you think you are a nigger.
A racist lies within all of us, it is human nature. Stereotypes stay alive because there is some truth to them.

To quote one of my good friends "You don't have the right to not be offended".


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5546503 - 04/23/06 03:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Mate, I never said anything like that. You are putting words into my mouth that I never said. Take it easy!! Only thing I said was this:

Your statement is valid from your point of view only though and using your current mind. If you take into account an improved mind, more dimensions perhaps, you may end up at a different statement.

You say you disagree and then you say the same thing with different words!


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5546543 - 04/23/06 03:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

more dimensions? get over yourself. You have no basis or solid ground for this argument.
nothing that you have said so far makes any sense, logical or illogical, and belive me, I can traverse into both.
The only reason I have become redundant in my statements is because you dont seem to get it, so I feel obliged to compound those communications to statements which are easily grasped by 4 year olds.

Sorry to be an asshole on this, but you have yet to say anything which has any substance outside of your own illusory reality.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5546599 - 04/23/06 03:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I am sorry that you are not into physics, but because I am, I will tell you that scientists have already discovered that 11 more dimensions exist. Also, can you try to be a little more polite, you are only reflecting yourself in these things you say.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5546612 - 04/23/06 03:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

LOL, one viewing of "the elgant universe" and you claim to be a physics major.....wow.

Look, String THEORY isnt a fact, and while it is a great topic to ponder while immensly baked, anyone who has delved into the theory beyond watching a PBS special would know that the 11 dimensions were created mainly to make the anomalies and equations work. Also, until a year ago, there were about 6 different string theories, ranging from 8 to 23 dimensions.

So, please, save your pseudo-intellectual "deepness" for someone else. you dont have some highly advanced concept of reality, and you are not thinking in these 11 dimensions. Also, nothing has yet to be proven regarding string theory, even inside of the parameters I have explained, which are still lacking proof outside of our perception.

i am truly sorry that you tried to play the Quantum Mechanics card on someone who is very "into physics", and your PBS grasp on the subject, along with a sophomoric defense regarding the current topic has yet to help you in any way.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5546649 - 04/23/06 04:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Pffffft. I didn't try to play any card, as I don't do that, you probably, not me. I didn't claim I have a major in physics and I didn't analyse it because it was not necessary nor did I say it was a fact. My point lies in my first reply. Don't get it? Fine. Trying to insult and lower me shows something about your character. Think of that instead.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5546659 - 04/23/06 04:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
I am sorry that you are not into physics, but because I am, I will tell you that scientists have already discovered that 11 more dimensions exist. Also, can you try to be a little more polite, you are only reflecting yourself in these things you say.




Isaac Newton discovered gravity.
nikola Tesla discovered three phase A/C current.

Discovery means that someone has found something which has already existed, yet was unknown or unaware to the collective human knowledge. i dont want to derail this thread into semantics, but you claimed that Scientists discovered 11 dimensions, as if they had been lying there all this time escaping our observation. this is not the case. 11 dimensional string theory exists only because it was needed to make it a sound theory, and not just some quacked out, illogical idea. in fact, a summit of all the leading "String Theorists" is what lead to the final agreement and equation of 11 dimensions, and the other theorietical physicists that had alternate theories had agreed to forego and dissolve thier theories in favor of the 11 dimensional one in order to give String Theory more plausibility.

Also, it is no surprise to anyone here that I am an asshole, it is my character. I have no problem being nor playing the asshole when needed. If shaky ad hominems and character assasinations is all you can bring to the table then I suggest you invest in some books or a proper education before touching your keyboard in ignorant dissent again.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5546692 - 04/23/06 05:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If that's all you have to suggest keep it for yourself. I did indeed used the word discovery wrongly but as many people here do, you missed the point. I've had my good share of proper education but I really doubt that you have. How about sticking to the point for once?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5546700 - 04/23/06 05:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

sticking to the point....? you mean like bringing up 11 supposed dimensions of reality in a discussion regarding the validation of right and wrong?

Many posts ago I made a very valid point which was on topic, which has yet to even be properly addressed by your or anyone else (given that it is 5 am, I find this normal).
the only reason why I might have "missed your point" is because you have none, and continue to blather on in circles trying to wriggle your way out of the mess which you have created and I have pointed out.
Your obvious need for some sort of intellectual validation has brought you too far, much like a poker bluff where the bluffer has invested far too many chips in the lie and can only forge ahead in hopes that deeper bullshitting can possibly save their ass.

Case in point: i am correct, your are incorrect.... however, neither of us are universally wrong nor right, because it is merely a perceived and subjective vantage point which one identifies themselves as being. The beauty of human capacity and potential allows for us to assume righteousness on a certain subject at a certain time, and upon past reflection of said subject and stance, one can find themselves diametrically opposed to their previous stance.
Take this subject for example: you consider me to be completely wrong in this matter, while at some point you may realize my correctness on this matter and find yourself in self-correcting paradox - being wrong about the nature of being wrong.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5546741 - 04/23/06 06:54 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

My belief is that everything you say about my character mirrors yourself. My sayings have been validated more than once, and not from shroomery members but from engineering professors.

I don't need your validation.
You missed the point.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5546817 - 04/23/06 08:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
There is no wrong or right. Not to try to sound all guru-like, but they are illusory.

Quote:

When people are just plain wrong it annoys me, especially when you can't make them see that.




this is quite possibly the most self-absorbed comment I have seen on these boards.

Things just are, and once you start acting and affecting things in your environment based on that ideology, instead of acting on the learned/made-up morals and ethics of yourself you will see that you act only in the present.





You misunderstand my intentions psilo.

Morality is human nature. When it comes to something like racism, I think there clearly is a right and a wrong by MORAL STANDARDS. As for the "most self-obsessed comment", I think you misunderstood. Maybe on purpose. I'm a reasonable man psilo, I'm not gonna judge someone unreasonably but I'm not gonna be as arsey as to say there is no wrong and right. Being human comes with morals that are both part of being human, and part of your "envornment"/"reality" etc and to deny them is just stupidity. Try to defend racism (directly or indirectly) on grounds of there being no right and wrong is plain....em, wrong.

IE: I accept that by philosphical arguments you can question the fact that there is right and wrong, but with a debate like racism, isnt that philosophy gone mental?Up its own arse?


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5546830 - 04/23/06 08:33 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Being human comes with morals that are both part of being human, and part of your "envornment"/"reality" etc and to deny them is just stupidity.




Incorrect. Being human comes with a body and an awareness. Everything else is learned/programmed/culturally induced.

Morality is not part of the equipment. It is constructed by each culture, and varies widely depending upon the values of said cultures. What is considered moral or immoral also changes with time, as each generation forms new ideas about "right" and "wrong."

A Bible-based morality does not work for the billions who are NOT Christian, so let's not even get into that discussion.

As morality is fluid, changeable, and subjective, it is impossible to state that a universal "right" and "wrong" exist.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547101 - 04/23/06 11:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think we would have to go beyond the big bang to see if there is some universal morality. But I think for an earth-morality our means could be quite enough :wink:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547197 - 04/23/06 11:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

As morality is fluid, changeable, and subjective, it is impossible to state that a universal "right" and "wrong" exist.




OK, maybe morals was the wrong word/idea. But regardless of changing morality, I would say there is some underlying instinctive feeling of right and wrong. Humanity; what it is to be human. If you just say body and consciousness, consciousness is quite a vague definition (ie animals have consciousness) and you're maybe not fully acknowledging the spiritual aspect.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5547233 - 04/23/06 12:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Also, I have no qualms about calling someone a nigger. Frankly, If I yell out the word, and you respond to it, apparently, you think you are a nigger.




:thumbdown: I know you're not really an asshole but that makes you sound like one. Can you not see why? Learn some respect, or at least social awareness, I used to use that argument calling people "jobby" in the playground when I was 5. "You answered so it must be true!" That's pretty childish for someone of your intellect.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5547262 - 04/23/06 12:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

When I said "awareness," I was referring to the spirit within the body. Our awareness is that which is immortal, which I believe chooses or is chosen for embodiment in order to experience the material aspects of existence.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5547266 - 04/23/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"There is no wrong or right. Not to try to sound all guru-like, but they are illusory."


No wrong or right?!

There is no wrong or right. They are not illusory.
There is wrong and right. They are illusory.
There is no wrong or right. They are illusory.
There is wrong and right. They are not illusory.

Jesus Christ is God in Human form.
Jesus Christ is not God in Human form.
Jesus Christ definitely never existed.
Jesus Christ definitely existed.

God is real.
God is fake.
God is within you and everything.
God is only within you for 15 minutes after you receive the holy Eucharist.

Matter is made of atoms. This is wrong.
Matter is made of atoms. This is right.

Isn't it great when I can say anything I want and all of it is equally true, because wrong and right do not exist! Weee.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5547274 - 04/23/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think you are confusing moral judgments of "right" and "wrong" with factual basis (or lack thereof.)

To say that a statement is factual or non-factual, incorrect or correct, is vastly different than saying someone's actions are morally right or morally wrong.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547286 - 04/23/06 12:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yes I was. I thought we were discussing both.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5547303 - 04/23/06 12:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yes rednucleus, i thought I had covered that earlier by discerning between righteousness and correctness.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5547309 - 04/23/06 12:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, initially the discussion was using the terms "right" and "wrong" interchangeably with "correct" and "incorrect."  Then it developed into a discussion of morality.

You are correct. :wink:

Personally, I prefer to reserve morally-loaded terms for moral discussions.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5547327 - 04/23/06 12:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mr_kite said:
Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Also, I have no qualms about calling someone a nigger. Frankly, If I yell out the word, and you respond to it, apparently, you think you are a nigger.




:thumbdown: I know you're not really an asshole but that makes you sound like one. Can you not see why? Learn some respect, or at least social awareness, I used to use that argument calling people "jobby" in the playground when I was 5. "You answered so it must be true!" That's pretty childish for someone of your intellect.




1) I dont go around yelling "nigger" looking for reaction, I was using it as a very basic example.

2) I dare you to try and list the reasons and proof as to why racism is universally bad/evil/wrong.

3) Racism is nothing more than a culturally charged word referring to a kind of stereotype. It is ok to call someone slut or nerd based on what they wear or how they act, but the second you stereotype someone using the certain word "nigger" then someone gasps, a dinner fork is dropped, and people stereotype you for saying it.

4) Also, if you have ever travelled outside of the US and had any black friends from outside of the US, you would notice that they would be more racist towards "niggers" than your average john grisham character.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5547354 - 04/23/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Merriam Webster said:

WRONG

1 : not according to the moral standard : SINFUL, IMMORAL <thought that war was wrong>
2 : not right or proper according to a code, standard, or convention : IMPROPER <it was wrong not to thank your host>
3 : not according to truth or facts : INCORRECT <gave a wrong date>
4 : not satisfactory (as in condition, results, health, or temper)
5 : not in accordance with one's needs, intent, or expectations <took the wrong bus>
6 : of, relating to, or constituting the side of something that is usually held to be opposite to the principal one, that is the one naturally or by design turned down, inward, or away, or that is the least finished or polished.




It seems that the commonality in these diverse definitions is "something which is not as we think it should be."

The idea of "should" is central to the development of neurosis, and therefore incompatible with mental wellbeing. As a strong proponent of mental health, I say DOWN WITH RIGHT AND WRONG! OUT WITH SHOULDS!


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5547372 - 04/23/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Sorry.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547406 - 04/23/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I like shoulds :lol:
Not everything (in specific contexts) is right :grin:
Wrong ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5547414 - 04/23/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Shoulds (IMO) interfere with my having a positive, direct relationship with reality.  I prefer "is" or "isn't," or (more subjectively) "preferable" or "not preferable."  :grin:


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547415 - 04/23/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Your idea suggests that people should not get neurosis, and that mental wellbeing is right.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5547420 - 04/23/06 01:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No, it suggests that mental wellbeing is vastly preferable to mental illness, and that neurosis is antithetical to mental wellbeing.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547434 - 04/23/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So "Shoulds" should be out?


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5547462 - 04/23/06 01:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

*sigh* "Should" is about rule or obligation, whereas "preference" involves free choice. I prefer to be mentally healthy, therefore I avoid that which is psychologically toxic.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5547466 - 04/23/06 01:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nevertheless you sounded like an asshole.

Do you believe that racism is wrong?

Quote:

2) I dare you to try and list the reasons and proof as to why racism is universally bad/evil/wrong.




Again, you misunderstood my point. I never claimed that there is proof; that was part of my point. There is no proof but it is still wrong. Yay or nay? I predict nay....


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547468 - 04/23/06 01:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Clear. Listen, I was legitimately confused by what you were saying. It's because of that damn "truth doesn't exist" thread.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5547473 - 04/23/06 01:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Okey dokey. :grin:


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5547491 - 04/23/06 01:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Ooops double post time


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Edited by mr_kite (04/23/06 01:48 PM)


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5547493 - 04/23/06 01:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I want to clarify:

One could say: Nothing can be deemed right or wrong unless there is proof/factually-based justification.
But this is limited; humanity (or something similar) also comes into play. EG racism cannot be proved "wrong" as such; but could you ever debate that it is "right"??


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5547506 - 04/23/06 01:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In terms of morality, why do you believe that racism is morally wrong?

In terms of factual correctness (or incorrectness), why do you believe that racism is factually wrong?

You do not need "proof" per se in order to state the reasons for your position. If you do not set out the basis of your position, it is not possible to debate the topic.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5547545 - 04/23/06 02:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I am an asshole. This isnt news.

Basically, Your only reasoning for labelling racism as wrong is because you think so? I dont get it.

just say "I think racism is wrong" instead of "everybody knows deep down inside that racism is wrong".


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547585 - 04/23/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Shoulds (IMO) interfere with my having a positive, direct relationship with reality.  I prefer "is" or "isn't," or (more subjectively) "preferable" or "not preferable."  :grin:



Hehe, so don't you think that there could be a reality (lets say environment), that should be right/preferable for everyone ?
If someone obviously acts against this 'premise', isn't there a 'should' which rises against this 'not preferable' action by him, because he is influencing 'higher' preferences, so he influences your relationship with reality as well ?
Of course, the 'could' and 'would' are much more enjoyable, but I think there are said things, which make a should (not a must) unavoidable to be risen into existence, and if it is only for defensive purpose :wink:


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547586 - 04/23/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
In terms of morality, why do you believe that racism is morally wrong?

In terms of factual correctness (or incorrectness), why do you believe that racism is factually wrong?




Great questions. Productive, valuable discussion revolves around great questions (and answering them :tongue:)! :wink:

Quote:


If you do not set out the basis of your position, it is not possible to debate the topic.




Exactly, and I think that more individuals who participate here should realize this, as all would benefit as a result. Far too frequently I have encountered individuals who propose a conclusion or an observation without any reasoning or basis. Upon asking questions to determine what reasoning or basis they have utilized to come to such a conclusion, they tend to avoid answering them.

I have often been told that they don't have time to express their reasoning or substantiation, or that I am not worth their time. I propose to them that they need not waste such precious time in making statements without being eager to discuss the statements. :smirk:

I guess sometimes my ideal vision of what this forum is does not reflect the reality of the matter... but such an ideal forever remains a possibillity dependant upon the intentions of all involved... *sighs*

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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5547593 - 04/23/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Blue, I'm having trouble digging in to your ideas. Could you provide some examples of the situations to which you are referring?


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547710 - 04/23/06 02:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Simply said, for example: If someone intrudes your private comfort zone or preferable relationship with reality, in a negative way, the obvious thing to do is putting a "should not" against him.
At least, that is the way I see this.
In large, for example, if someone kills big parts of nature for selfish reasons, because he has the material power to do so, for his right and good, isn't there a "should not" from the rest of us, because it also influences our own state of well-being in the 'wrong' way, manifesting as bad ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5547853 - 04/23/06 03:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


*sigh* "Should" is about rule or obligation, whereas "preference" involves free choice. I prefer to be mentally healthy, therefore I avoid that which is psychologically toxic




you haven't gotten rid of shoulds at all, nor said anything profound. rule or obligation is based in preference. i have an obligation to let my father know i am taking classes this summer because he will be paying for it. not letting him know would lead to a situation that is less preferable. this is where should comes from. you cannot do away with should without also doing away with preference. calling the same thing by a different word doesn't change much.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Deviate]
    #5548059 - 04/23/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There is more to it than "calling it by a different word."

"Should" or "must" or "have to" are worlds apart from "I choose to because I prefer the outcome of this action."

The flip side of a "should" is usually a negative judgment: if you don't do as you should, you are wrong/bad.

The flip side of a preference is just a non-preferred, but morally neutral, outcome.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Deviate]
    #5548068 - 04/23/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
calling the same thing by a different word doesn't change much.




It doesn't change much, but only to those who do not recognize the difference implied by different words. It isn't much change when one doesn't properly understand what is being changed. :wink:

Preference, as a word, only represents the act of selecting something over other choices, or that which is selected. It does not provide any commentary on the nature of the choice or how the decision is made.

"Should" and "should not" are, essentially, commands. It is a dictation of suggestions within the context of obligations. Cause and effect, ultimately.

One can prefer in regards to one's current position in one's life situation and one's chosen path (which, in itself, is a preference) without utilizing a mechanism of dictation.

Utilizing only preferences implies consideration of one's thought processes involved in making the decision in a conscious, rational manner. Thinking through "shoulds" and "should nots" involves preconceived notions of what one's life situation is, first and foremost.

Maintaining a conscious presence in one's decision making means that one simply utilizes preferences, as a preference defines a choice simply as a choice. The reasoning behind the choice needs to be executed with conscious awareness if one is interested in more effectively making choices and altering one's reality in accordance with one's plans and goals. Defining the choice itself with the reasoning involved in making the choice is counter-productive to that.

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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5548088 - 04/23/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

but that's understood. when someone says "i can't talk i have to write a paper" you know that they really could talk but they are choosing to write the paper because they prefer they outcome which will result from that course of action. these concepts of preference are embedded in our language and give rise to shoulds and should nots. furthermore, what is wrong with attatching a negative judgement when someone does something they shouldn't do? are you saying if someone raped your daughter you would not have any complaint against him, his action being morally nuetral?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5548105 - 04/23/06 04:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
calling the same thing by a different word doesn't change much.




It doesn't change much, but only to those who do not recognize the difference implied by different words. It isn't much change when one doesn't properly understand what is being changed. :wink:

Preference, as a word, only represents the act of selecting something over other choices, or that which is selected. It does not provide any commentary on the nature of the choice or how the decision is made.

"Should" and "should not" are, essentially, commands. It is a dictation of suggestions within the context of obligations. Cause and effect, ultimately.

One can prefer in regards to one's current position in one's life situation and one's chosen path (which, in itself, is a preference) without utilizing a mechanism of dictation.

Utilizing only preferences implies consideration of one's thought processes involved in making the decision in a conscious, rational manner. Thinking through "shoulds" and "should nots" involves preconceived notions of what one's life situation is, first and foremost.

Maintaining a conscious presence in one's decision making means that one simply utilizes preferences, as a preference defines a choice simply as a choice. The reasoning behind the choice needs to be executed with conscious awareness if one is interested in more effectively making choices and altering one's reality in accordance with one's plans and goals. Defining the choice itself with the reasoning involved in making the choice is counter-productive to that.

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


"

but as i tried to explain, the concept of should stems from an agreed upon preference or goal. for example, if you want to win at tennis, you should practise your serve. this is the concept of should and it is very useful.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Deviate]
    #5548249 - 04/23/06 05:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not a moralist, so I doubt that my response to any situation would involve judging it as right or wrong.

I do believe that individuals have the ultimate authority over their own body, including whether someone else may be allowed to touch it, and that those who violate this authority are acting outside of their rights. If someone raped my son or daughter, I would act to see that they were caught and punished to the fullest extent of the law.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5548267 - 04/23/06 05:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:



I'm not a moralist, so I doubt that my response to any situation would involve judging it as right or wrong.

I do believe that individuals have the ultimate authority over their own body, including whether someone else may be allowed to touch it, and that those who violate this authority are acting outside of their rights. If someone raped my son or daughter, I would act to see that they were caught and punished to the fullest extent of the law.




"acting outside of their rights" sounds like just a fancy way of saying wrong.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Deviate]
    #5548271 - 04/23/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Now I'm almost certain I'm wrong.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5548342 - 04/23/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I am with Deviate on this one. I can say "You should rape her because she's good looking," but I'm not suggesting that it's moral behavior to rape her.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Deviate]
    #5548454 - 04/23/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Are you claiming that civil rights are moral rather than legal? Whether an action is moral or immoral is only loosely connected to whether it is legal or illegal.

Take drug use, for example. You would be hard pressed to make a case that an individual who chooses to alter his or her consciousness by taking a drug is immoral, but their act is illegal in the U.S.

I have the legal right to decide whether someone else will have sex with me. If they violate my rights, and also act outside of their right to have sex, which is limited by my right NOT to have sex with them, then they will be legally punished. The morality or immorality of their act is irrelevant.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5548577 - 04/23/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Are you claiming that civil rights are moral rather than legal? Whether an action is moral or immoral is only loosely connected to whether it is legal or illegal.

Take drug use, for example. You would be hard pressed to make a case that an individual who chooses to alter his or her consciousness by taking a drug is immoral, but their act is illegal in the U.S.

I have the legal right to decide whether someone else will have sex with me. If they violate my rights, and also act outside of their right to have sex, which is limited by my right NOT to have sex with them, then they will be legally punished. The morality or immorality of their act is irrelevant.





no i wasn't saying that, sorry i was unclear. basically i had 2 dissagreements with you, one was over the word should. the second was over your example of moral relativism. i think with the rape example, i was trying to say that by prosecuting the rapist to the full extent of the law, you are essentially casting his action in a negative light. secondly, i thought you were the one who was saying civil rigthts were moral. you said "i believe people have the ultimate authority over their own body, including who touches it" not "legally people have ultimate authority over their own body".

as for moral relativism i think it should be noted that it does refute morality. this is because context plays a role in determining right and wrong.


Edited by Deviate (04/23/06 06:51 PM)


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Deviate]
    #5548796 - 04/23/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
basically i had 2 dissagreements with you, one was over the word should. the second was over your example of moral relativism.




When did I speak in favor of moral relativism? I am not in favor of moral judgments of any sort, but was describing the moral inconsistency which is commonly practiced.

Quote:

i think with the rape example, i was trying to say that by prosecuting the rapist to the full extent of the law, you are essentially casting his action in a negative light.




I suppose it would be possible to phrase "non-preferable" as "negative," the distinction I would make is that a moral judgment says that the rapist is bad/evil, while a legal judgment says that his actions are unacceptable & sets consequences for those actions.

Quote:

secondly, i thought you were the one who was saying civil rigthts were moral. you said "i believe people have the ultimate authority over their own body, including who touches it" not "legally people have ultimate authority over their own body".




My beliefs are in alignment with the law on this subject, but I would hold the same belief regardless of the legal support or lack thereof. For example, my belief in our sovereign authority over our body extends to our right to end our own lives, or to help someone end theirs when they request it.

Again, this does not have to do with my moral code, but my preferences as a human being.

Perhaps this distinction seems frivolous to you, as you have been content to make nothing of it, but it is meaningful to me. I do not choose to live according to the standard of good/evil, right/wrong, because I do not find these methods of evaluation descriptive or helpful. Just as I do not find religion descriptive or helpful.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5548835 - 04/23/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

When did I speak in favor of moral relativism? I am not in favor of moral judgments of any sort, but was describing the moral inconsistency which is commonly practiced.

I meant the fact that morals aren't consistent doesn't prove they don't exist.

Quote:

I suppose it would be possible to phrase "non-preferable" as "negative," the distinction I would make is that a moral judgment says that the rapist is bad/evil, while a legal judgment says that his actions are unacceptable & sets consequences for those actions.


.

i dissagree. i don't think a moral judgement says anything different than a "non preferable" judegment. you could just easily label those who behave in "non preferable" ways as bad. the preferableness of the outcome is the bases of moral judgements.



Quote:

My beliefs are in alignment with the law on this subject, but I would hold the same belief regardless of the legal support or lack thereof. For example, my belief in our sovereign authority over our body extends to our right to end our own lives, or to help someone end theirs when they request it.

Again, this does not have to do with my moral code, but my preferences as a human being.

Perhaps this distinction seems frivolous to you, as you have been content to make nothing of it, but it is meaningful to me. I do not choose to live according to the standard of good/evil, right/wrong, because I do not find these methods of evaluation descriptive or helpful. Just as I do not find religion descriptive or helpful.




but it appears you do live according to these standards, you simply refuse to call them by their traditional names.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Deviate]
    #5548891 - 04/23/06 08:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Calling something "good" or "bad," "right" or "wrong," asserts ones opinion as universal.  Calling it "preferable" or "non-preferable" claims the choice as purely subjective/personal, which all moral judgments are in fact. 

Moralistic terms are not just traditional, they are religious.  Moralism assumes that one's preferences, or those of your established group, are the correct and righteous choices.  I reject this stance and the terms by which it is conveyed.  This is what is preferable and healthy for me.  Your choices may vary. :wink:


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5548946 - 04/23/06 08:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)


Calling something "good" or "bad," "right" or "wrong," asserts ones opinion as universal.  Calling it "preferable" or "non-preferable" claims the choice as purely subjective/personal, which all moral judgments are in fact. 


you could just as easily be wrong when claiming something was preferable. it might not work out the way you imagined and turn out to be the "wrong" or not preferable choice.

Moralistic terms are not just traditional, they are religious.  Moralism assumes that one's preferences, or those of your established group, are the correct and righteous choices.  I reject this stance and the terms by which it is conveyed.  This is what is preferable and healthy for me.  Your choices may vary. :wink:

it assumes that certain things are preferable.


Edited by Deviate (04/23/06 08:17 PM)


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Deviate]
    #5548969 - 04/23/06 08:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It assumes that certain things are preferable for everyone.  I assume that certain things are preferable to me:grin:  This is a safe assumption, as I actually do prefer some things over other things.

For instance, I prefer Rocky Road ice cream to Pistachio.  This does not mean that Pistachio ice cream is wrong, evil, or bad.  It has no actual moral qualities.

I prefer that you do not eat my Rocky Road ice cream when I have not offered it to you.    If you eat my ice cream without my permission, you have not taken on moral qualities, either.  You are neutral.  However, I may seek legal assistance in getting compensated for my ice cream.  This does not mean that I think you are evil and wrong, just that I want to go out and buy more ice cream.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5549253 - 04/23/06 09:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Eating someone else's ice cream without permission IS definitely a crime....    :thumbdown:


>^;;^<


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5549525 - 04/23/06 10:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Kinky hair, like heightened melanation are later adaptations of Homo Sapien Sapien around equatorial Africa for sun protection (e.g., from malignant melanoma). Early humans may have had had orangatan-like hair according to some. Black Australian people have straight hair and are also highly melanated. Caucasians living in weak sunlit latitudes may have developed those platinum locks to serve like fiber-optics to conduct more sunlight to the scalp for the additional sun-produced vitamin D. These adaptations are not correlated with human intelligence, Intelligent Design possibly, or just survival of the fittest.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5549601 - 04/23/06 11:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You are talking about preference, and you gave that ice cream example. I don't know if you remember, but if we follow the posts, that ice cream example was supposed to be showing that you did not involve morals in the following sentence: "I do believe that individuals have the ultimate authority over their own body, including whether someone else may be allowed to touch it, and that those who violate this authority are acting outside of their rights"

The ice cream example is of individual preference. The rape example is definitely making a moral judgement You said people have a right not to have sex. It follows that depriving them of this right is amoral. If a rapist has a "personal preference" that people do not have such rights, would the rape be a-ok with you?


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5549941 - 04/24/06 01:29 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think it is only a word-play, as I see 'preferences' as 'moral', too. Might it be in a individual context or in context of groups or society.
I agree that morals have to do with humans wants, needs and desires (aka preferences), but there is a strong analogy to the existential form of identity, too. As I said before, if iron rots away, it will not be iron anymore. If iron needs to be iron (for some physical or biological need), there is a 'bad' or 'wrong' for everything which lets iron rust. Not for the human, but for the iron.
Now we should draw the connection between these analogies, imho.
Also, as I said before, we can not grasp a universal moral (in the above context) as we can not look behind the micro or macro (aka big bang/boarders of universe or quantum mechanics), so we must stay within our known context of 'generally', that means, a moral for all humans and for the planet earth itself (for example, simply said, all humans should be happy and that is, if they can healthily rely on a healthy living regenerating planet, not on other selfish people, imho. People make and see themselves as dominant system, but ignore the natural system they stem from, that is the main problem, which lets one not see general major morality, again imho)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5550198 - 04/24/06 04:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

racism is hugely wrong.
so is war.
greed fear-hate and stupidity are at its roots.

when cornered with a raging lunatic, or stupid person.
try to keep your ground without showing your teeth.
sometimes it helps sing to them.
it sooths the primitive beast within.
all are children.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5550798 - 04/24/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RedNucleus said:
You are talking about preference, and you gave that ice cream example. I don't know if you remember, but if we follow the posts, that ice cream example was supposed to be showing that you did not involve morals in the following sentence: "I do believe that individuals have the ultimate authority over their own body, including whether someone else may be allowed to touch it, and that those who violate this authority are acting outside of their rights"

The ice cream example is of individual preference. The rape example is definitely making a moral judgement You said people have a right not to have sex. It follows that depriving them of this right is amoral. If a rapist has a "personal preference" that people do not have such rights, would the rape be a-ok with you?




How exactly does it follow that violating someone else's rights is amoral? Morals do not exist independent of our judgments. In my example, I discussed preferences, i.e. what I like & what I dislike. The rapist's personal preferences do not overrule my individual rights and preferences regarding myself.

If he oversteps his individual rights, I can strongly prefer to avoid being raped, take action to defend myself, request assistance from the police in capturing and jailing him, and cooperate with prosecuting him for his crime. At no point in this scenario is a moral judgment necessary or important to me in any way.

This is the same as my preferring that you do not take my ice cream without permission, pursuing compensation for the loss of my ice cream, and perhaps deciding not to invite you over to my house again. A judgment of you or your action as right or wrong is irrelevant.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5550801 - 04/24/06 11:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No, this goes beyond word-play, Blue. The definition of preference is "to like or dislike, to see as better or best." It is purely personal, has no religious connotations, and does not presume in any way that it extends to anyone else.

Morals, by contrast, are defined as "judgment of something as right or wrong." They are global, if not actually "universal," and presume that they extend to everyone else.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5550864 - 04/24/06 11:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I can not see the difference.
One has personal preferences/moral and if some people have the same preferences/morals 'shawoop' you get group-moral/preferences.
It can be a personal moral, but also a 'group-moral' to have no 'group-morals' :grin:
If people with the same individual morals group together, the group-moral is automatically created.
To force the morals of a group on individuals is not possible without them having the same individual moral before. Otherwise you get fakes, double-moral, destroyed individual existences, crime and terrorists.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5551130 - 04/24/06 01:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

On a personal level we talk about the difference between having an addiction or having a preference. The main difference as I see it, is how we react when the preference is not being met. Having it as only a preference means that we will not punish ourselves with bad feelings when they are not met. On an interpersonal level I would assume that a preference being broken should not result in punishment. Therefore if we defend that some deeds should result in punishment, it is more than a mere preference.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: dorkus]
    #5551700 - 04/24/06 04:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I still can not see the qualitative difference between personal and group morality.
I agree that there is a distinction between needs and wants, but that is for both parts.
As for punishment, I also see strong similarities, as every punishment first exists from the direct physical response of (wrong) action or even non-action resulting in displeasure, or pain. For groups or individuals the same. Therefore one sets some future-based motivations, to not experience unhappiness. I think, that is the base of morals, as like for just facts to be (wrong/right or good/bad).


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (04/24/06 05:01 PM)


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5551726 - 04/24/06 05:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for being clear. To resolve this, we need to discuss whether rights imply morals.
In my opinion, two of my rights are eating psilocybes, and free speech. One of these is not allowed in the USA. As a result I feel that my right to consume psilocybes is infringed upon by U.S. law. Where, then does this right exist? It seems to me that this right is a moral.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5563898 - 04/27/06 05:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Is the opposite of a civil right, a civil wrong?  :wink:

I believe that rights are amoral...that is "being neither moral nor immoral; specifically : lying outside the sphere to which moral judgments apply."


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5566483 - 04/28/06 10:08 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

you lost me there...


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......................................................
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5566568 - 04/28/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

right

1 : qualities (as adherence to duty or obedience to lawful authority) that together constitute the ideal of moral propriety or merit moral approval

2 : something to which one has a just claim: as a : the power or privilege to which one is justly entitled.




The difference between what is morally "right" and a civil right is that the former is concerned with correctness, while the latter is concerned with justice/fairness.

Justice and fairness are amoral, that is, not of a moral nature.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5566760 - 04/28/06 11:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

As these are abstract human definitions, how you describe them, I think I have some more natural interpretations there, which fit me best and where I can not see a artificial distinction. Sorry, perhaps it is the language.
:shrug:


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5566802 - 04/28/06 12:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well, you are obviously more comfortable than I with religious morals. I find the concepts of civil rights, justice, freedom and individual responsibility to be far more applicable to my experience of life.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5566852 - 04/28/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well, you are obviously more comfortable than I with religious morals. I find the concepts of civil rights, justice, freedom and individual responsibility to be far more applicable to my experience of life.
religions as you see it ? No, that is some other corner around the corridor.
But 'spiritual' concerned religions, which reflect the original morals of each individual don't exclude those 'values'.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5566879 - 04/28/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Which religions, in your opinion, reflect the original morals of the individual? I have never heard of an organized religion which concerned itself with personal moral codes.


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5566902 - 04/28/06 12:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'd like to know too. I may want to join. :thumbup:


--------------------
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #5566910 - 04/28/06 12:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Meh, not me...I'm not much of a joiner. :tongue:


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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5566957 - 04/28/06 01:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I didn't say you. I want to join. You might win prizes.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #5567161 - 04/28/06 02:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Or there might be pudding!  :laugh:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5567262 - 04/28/06 03:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

As far as I can tell, 'justice' is entirely of a moral nature and an arbitrary concept without this God person around. Justice implies certain behaviors are correct and other behaviors are wrong. Thus 'justice' can be considered doing what is correct, whatever that may be, while being unjust is synonymous with being 'bad'.

What determines what is just and what is unjust? Furthermore, why do we have an obligation to be fair?


just (adj.)
1382, "righteous in the eyes of God, upright and impartial," from O.Fr. just, from L. justus "upright, equitable," from jus (gen. juris) "right," especially "legal right, law," from O.Latin ious, perhaps lit. "sacred formula," a word peculiar to Latin (not general Italic) that originated in the religious cults, from PIE base *yewes- (cf. Avestan yaozda- "make ritually pure;" see jurist). The more mundane L. law-word lex covered specific laws as opposed to the body of laws.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5567622 - 04/28/06 05:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Justice
the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity.

Moral
of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior.




As I understand it, our laws are (ideally) written with concern for establishing some baseline of community moral or ethical standards. However, the laws are the same for everyone, whereas the moral codes and ethical standards vary between sub-groups in the community. (As well as between individuals within those sub-groups.)

I am referring to morality in the religious sense, as opposed to the dictionary definition which has it as a synonym for ethics. Usually those who propose moral standards intend for their religious tenets to be applied. At least in theory, the U.S. is a secularist nation, and legally amoral.

Quote:

Secularism may also be defined as the idea that religion should not interfere with or be integrated into the public affairs of a society.

Secularism can also be the social ideology in which religion and supernatural beliefs are not seen as the key to understanding the world and are instead segregated from matters of governance and reasoning.

When applied to society, secularism is considered to be any of a range of situations where a society less automatically assumes religious beliefs to be either widely shared or a basis for conflict in various forms, than in recent generations of the same society.




We are obligated to be fair by the agreements our country was founded upon, by the basic recognition of human rights, by our individual desire to be treated with the same fairness by others, by any number of things besides G-O-D.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5567817 - 04/28/06 06:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Usually those who propose moral standards intend for their religious tenets to be applied. At least in theory, the U.S. is a secularist nation, and legally amoral.

More theory than practice, unfortunately. *

Not far up the road from me (Florida) is a county that is dry on Sundays. :shake:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (04/28/06 08:20 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Diploid]
    #5568301 - 04/28/06 08:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Actually, that would be an example of how the U.S. is not secularist in practice. :grin:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5568334 - 04/28/06 08:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Eh, it's this dam marijuana. It's making me transpose concepts and laugh at pretty much everything. There must be something wrong with it.

:getstoned:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Being Wrong [Re: Diploid]
    #5568337 - 04/28/06 08:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'll take it off your hands, man.  :cool:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5568384 - 04/28/06 08:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yes, you are right, as most religions seem to be corrupted. That is why Jesus didn't want the founding of churches, but everyone should follow his deeds. When religions are corrupted, they lose their spirituality. Even in the books of the church, there is a warning sometimes, that even the people of church make 'mistakes'.
I don't know if it is possible to purify each heart so they could see the very best for every human, which relates to ones own happiness.
Perhaps I am speaking of an idealistic religion, which has still be to be founded, but on the other hand, those existing religions were founded out of this intention and have corrupted over the time.
I just don't want to see the outcoming corrupted religions as that what they are 'invented' for.
So, choose the religion, which fits best to you and find out the source of it then throw away its timely and socio-cultural corruption and you should see, from what I speak of :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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