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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5547309 - 04/23/06 12:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, initially the discussion was using the terms "right" and "wrong" interchangeably with "correct" and "incorrect."  Then it developed into a discussion of morality.

You are correct. :wink:

Personally, I prefer to reserve morally-loaded terms for moral discussions.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5547327 - 04/23/06 12:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mr_kite said:
Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Also, I have no qualms about calling someone a nigger. Frankly, If I yell out the word, and you respond to it, apparently, you think you are a nigger.




:thumbdown: I know you're not really an asshole but that makes you sound like one. Can you not see why? Learn some respect, or at least social awareness, I used to use that argument calling people "jobby" in the playground when I was 5. "You answered so it must be true!" That's pretty childish for someone of your intellect.




1) I dont go around yelling "nigger" looking for reaction, I was using it as a very basic example.

2) I dare you to try and list the reasons and proof as to why racism is universally bad/evil/wrong.

3) Racism is nothing more than a culturally charged word referring to a kind of stereotype. It is ok to call someone slut or nerd based on what they wear or how they act, but the second you stereotype someone using the certain word "nigger" then someone gasps, a dinner fork is dropped, and people stereotype you for saying it.

4) Also, if you have ever travelled outside of the US and had any black friends from outside of the US, you would notice that they would be more racist towards "niggers" than your average john grisham character.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5547354 - 04/23/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Merriam Webster said:

WRONG

1 : not according to the moral standard : SINFUL, IMMORAL <thought that war was wrong>
2 : not right or proper according to a code, standard, or convention : IMPROPER <it was wrong not to thank your host>
3 : not according to truth or facts : INCORRECT <gave a wrong date>
4 : not satisfactory (as in condition, results, health, or temper)
5 : not in accordance with one's needs, intent, or expectations <took the wrong bus>
6 : of, relating to, or constituting the side of something that is usually held to be opposite to the principal one, that is the one naturally or by design turned down, inward, or away, or that is the least finished or polished.




It seems that the commonality in these diverse definitions is "something which is not as we think it should be."

The idea of "should" is central to the development of neurosis, and therefore incompatible with mental wellbeing. As a strong proponent of mental health, I say DOWN WITH RIGHT AND WRONG! OUT WITH SHOULDS!


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5547372 - 04/23/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Sorry.


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Namaste


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547406 - 04/23/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I like shoulds :lol:
Not everything (in specific contexts) is right :grin:
Wrong ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5547414 - 04/23/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Shoulds (IMO) interfere with my having a positive, direct relationship with reality.  I prefer "is" or "isn't," or (more subjectively) "preferable" or "not preferable."  :grin:


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547415 - 04/23/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Your idea suggests that people should not get neurosis, and that mental wellbeing is right.


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Namaste


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5547420 - 04/23/06 01:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No, it suggests that mental wellbeing is vastly preferable to mental illness, and that neurosis is antithetical to mental wellbeing.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547434 - 04/23/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So "Shoulds" should be out?


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Namaste


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5547462 - 04/23/06 01:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

*sigh* "Should" is about rule or obligation, whereas "preference" involves free choice. I prefer to be mentally healthy, therefore I avoid that which is psychologically toxic.


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5547466 - 04/23/06 01:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nevertheless you sounded like an asshole.

Do you believe that racism is wrong?

Quote:

2) I dare you to try and list the reasons and proof as to why racism is universally bad/evil/wrong.




Again, you misunderstood my point. I never claimed that there is proof; that was part of my point. There is no proof but it is still wrong. Yay or nay? I predict nay....


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547468 - 04/23/06 01:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Clear. Listen, I was legitimately confused by what you were saying. It's because of that damn "truth doesn't exist" thread.


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Namaste


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5547473 - 04/23/06 01:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Okey dokey. :grin:


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5547491 - 04/23/06 01:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Ooops double post time


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


Edited by mr_kite (04/23/06 01:48 PM)


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5547493 - 04/23/06 01:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I want to clarify:

One could say: Nothing can be deemed right or wrong unless there is proof/factually-based justification.
But this is limited; humanity (or something similar) also comes into play. EG racism cannot be proved "wrong" as such; but could you ever debate that it is "right"??


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5547506 - 04/23/06 01:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In terms of morality, why do you believe that racism is morally wrong?

In terms of factual correctness (or incorrectness), why do you believe that racism is factually wrong?

You do not need "proof" per se in order to state the reasons for your position. If you do not set out the basis of your position, it is not possible to debate the topic.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5547545 - 04/23/06 02:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I am an asshole. This isnt news.

Basically, Your only reasoning for labelling racism as wrong is because you think so? I dont get it.

just say "I think racism is wrong" instead of "everybody knows deep down inside that racism is wrong".


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547585 - 04/23/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Shoulds (IMO) interfere with my having a positive, direct relationship with reality.  I prefer "is" or "isn't," or (more subjectively) "preferable" or "not preferable."  :grin:



Hehe, so don't you think that there could be a reality (lets say environment), that should be right/preferable for everyone ?
If someone obviously acts against this 'premise', isn't there a 'should' which rises against this 'not preferable' action by him, because he is influencing 'higher' preferences, so he influences your relationship with reality as well ?
Of course, the 'could' and 'would' are much more enjoyable, but I think there are said things, which make a should (not a must) unavoidable to be risen into existence, and if it is only for defensive purpose :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Veritas]
    #5547586 - 04/23/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
In terms of morality, why do you believe that racism is morally wrong?

In terms of factual correctness (or incorrectness), why do you believe that racism is factually wrong?




Great questions. Productive, valuable discussion revolves around great questions (and answering them :tongue:)! :wink:

Quote:


If you do not set out the basis of your position, it is not possible to debate the topic.




Exactly, and I think that more individuals who participate here should realize this, as all would benefit as a result. Far too frequently I have encountered individuals who propose a conclusion or an observation without any reasoning or basis. Upon asking questions to determine what reasoning or basis they have utilized to come to such a conclusion, they tend to avoid answering them.

I have often been told that they don't have time to express their reasoning or substantiation, or that I am not worth their time. I propose to them that they need not waste such precious time in making statements without being eager to discuss the statements. :smirk:

I guess sometimes my ideal vision of what this forum is does not reflect the reality of the matter... but such an ideal forever remains a possibillity dependant upon the intentions of all involved... *sighs*

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5547593 - 04/23/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Blue, I'm having trouble digging in to your ideas. Could you provide some examples of the situations to which you are referring?


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