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Offlinemr_kite
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Being Wrong
    #5544638 - 04/22/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

EG How do you tell a racist (s)he's wrong? How do you justify something which has no factual backup? This obviously revolves around morality as clearly the same argument - related to lack of factual proof - can't be applied to a racist as it can to, for example, a religious person. (By that I'm not implying that religious people are wrong or right  :crazy2:)

When people are just plain wrong it annoys me, especially when you can't make them see that.

I suppose this thread could equally be called "Being Right"...


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5544652 - 04/22/06 05:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There is no wrong or right. Not to try to sound all guru-like, but they are illusory.

Quote:

When people are just plain wrong it annoys me, especially when you can't make them see that.




this is quite possibly the most self-absorbed comment I have seen on these boards.

Things just are, and once you start acting and affecting things in your environment based on that ideology, instead of acting on the learned/made-up morals and ethics of yourself you will see that you act only in the present.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5544936 - 04/22/06 06:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Racism can be bashed quite easily. Simply ask the racist if he bases his ideologies upon theories about the 'most advanced' race on planet earth. He has to agree that the most advanced 'race' should be this, which exists for the longest time and had the most time for their evolution and development. Then explain, that human life started in Africa and that the black people are those, who as a race exist on planet earth for the longest time. In fact, it is assumed, that curly negro-hair is a sign for a further step in evolution.
And yes, of course there is wrong and right, as like there is good and bad.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlineporcupine
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5544962 - 04/22/06 07:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Racism can be bashed quite easily. Simply ask the racist if he bases his ideologies upon theories about the 'most advanced' race on planet earth. He has to agree that the most advanced 'race' should be this, which exists for the longest time and had the most time for their evolution and development. Then explain, that human life started in Africa and that the black people are those, who as a race exist on planet earth for the longest time. In fact, it is assumed, that curly negro-hair is a sign for a further step in evolution.
And yes, of course there is wrong and right, as like there is good and bad.




that doesn't make any sense to me. if black people arose first and an isolated group of them evolved into white people, that wouldn't make white people any less advanced.

anyway apart from that, i know a racist who frequently posts on the message board for my university. he bases his ideaologies on scientific studies that compare races and yes of course he uses studies which correct for cultural, economic and other factors. some of the biology majors spent an entire weekend debating him in a thread that got several hundred replies and they could not prove him wrong. i am not convinced that any races are innately more intelligent than others but after reading through that debate i came to accept it at least a real possibility. unlike him, i would never use it to justify racism though.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5545019 - 04/22/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Racism is usually perpetuated by anger and hatred. Hatred blinds and deludes the confused mind. These poor beings have such limited views that there destinations in life and perhaps death are certainly not going to be very pleasant. Have compassion for these beings who are trapped by illusion, and bathed in ignorance. A racist may not be right, but in their view, they are never wrong. This kind of egotism creates a deep cavern of suffering for them. So let us reflect a little, without judgment. Seeing the situation for how it is, and apply skilfull measn as the antidote. Right and wrong are just perceptual limitations. Equanimity's compassion is essential!


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (04/22/06 07:41 PM)


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Offlinemichael_lifshitz
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Sinbad]
    #5545027 - 04/22/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nothing is wrong or right as long as you can argue it properly, right? I think so!


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: michael_lifshitz]
    #5545044 - 04/22/06 07:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Alas! The limitations of conceptual language!  :shocked: :wink::lol:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: porcupine]
    #5545243 - 04/22/06 08:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

porcupine said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Racism can be bashed quite easily. Simply ask the racist if he bases his ideologies upon theories about the 'most advanced' race on planet earth. He has to agree that the most advanced 'race' should be this, which exists for the longest time and had the most time for their evolution and development. Then explain, that human life started in Africa and that the black people are those, who as a race exist on planet earth for the longest time. In fact, it is assumed, that curly negro-hair is a sign for a further step in evolution.
And yes, of course there is wrong and right, as like there is good and bad.




that doesn't make any sense to me. if black people arose first and an isolated group of them evolved into white people, that wouldn't make white people any less advanced.
[...]



One can see modern races simply in the sense of 'youth', fresh, unexperienced, like the children of some human.

And yes, right and wrong, good and bad are concepts strongly connected to someones 'wants' and 'needs'. But those concepts again are strongly bond to the states of existing identities (ie. for iron to remain iron, everything is bad or wrong that lets it corrode and dissolve).


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Sinbad] * 1
    #5545387 - 04/22/06 09:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Racism is usually perpetuated by anger and hatred. Hatred blinds and deludes the confused mind.




Racism IS anger and/or hatred, more than likely perpetuated by fear.... 
Some fear perhaps being for individual specific reasons due to bad experiences in one's life - thus idealized by the fearful to make it a generalized hatred....
Then there is also the "upbringing", "peer induced", "follow the bandwagon" types of general hatred, on a basis without reason - (which is ignorant in my humble opinion)....
IE., "Why do you hate this type of person?"  --  "I just do."

I am not sure how "hatred blinds and deludes the confused mind", maybe you can explain more about your thoughts on how hatred "confuses" a mind....




Quote:

These poor beings have such limited views that there destinations in life and perhaps death are certainly not going to be very pleasant.




**Some** people take comfort in a hatred P.O.V., and it makes them a "stronger" person in their own mind.... 
Though I agree that is a limited perspective, how would that negatively effect the general pleasantness of death and/or an individual's destination in life....?
There is "Passive Hatred" as well as "Aggressive Hatred"....




Quote:

Have compassion for these beings who are trapped by illusion, and bathed in ignorance.




Compassion, or tolerance...? 
(Ironic to have tolerance for an ignorant based intolerance...!?) 




Quote:

A racist may not be right, but in their view, they are never wrong. This kind of egotism creates a deep cavern of suffering for them.




How does being egotistical cause self suffering, in your P.O.V.....?




Quote:

So let us reflect a little, without judgment. Seeing the situation for how it is, and apply skillful means as the antidote.




I absolutely agree....    :thumbup:
There are good people and bad people (all a subjective perception of one's personal choices in morality, of course) and has nothing to do with race....




Quote:

Right and wrong are just perceptual limitations. Equanimity's compassion is essential!




I think for the most part, I agree with this as well, but would like to know your perspective of why you think it is "essential", and for whom is it "essential"...?



>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineGoldenserenity
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5545646 - 04/22/06 10:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What is the point of telling someone that they are wrong? What exactly is "wrong" and who determines it? When we label something as being wrong, it's based on our own thoughts, beliefs and morals as well as other factors in our life. What may be wrong to me may not be wrong to you and what was wrong say a hundred years ago is probably not wrong now.
You cannot force another to see your own views of things, and as you say...it's irritating when someone will not see your side of it, but...it's not up to any of us to prove or disprove anything. It's not up to any of us to point out anothers "wrongness" because we simply feel the other person isn't totally getting it. Getting what? Our points and views?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Goldenserenity]
    #5545751 - 04/22/06 10:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What really gets me is when someone tells another that they are wrong, but provide no understanding that supports their stance that one is wrong. Simply telling another that one is wrong, that one is ignorant, etc. etc, is clearly divisive, and intended as assuring others that oneself is right. Providing for an understanding, engaging in productive debate with those who express views that differ from one's own, bridges the gaps between one's conceptions of what is right and what is wrong, and develops all that are involved.

Being so assured that oneself is right is rather egotistical, in my opinion, as there is always a greater perspective that takes into account more aspects of reality, and such assurance naturally prevents oneself from becoming aware of a more encompassing perspective.

The fact that one would be annoyed by another's lack of understanding demonstrates that such a person is rather mentally undeveloped, honestly. They simply cannot accept the fact that everyone comes to this point in time and the related understanding that they hold naturally, that it could not be any other way. Their demands that others conform to their own views go unfufilled, naturally, and they suffer negative emotions as a result (annoyance, for example :smirk:).

I was recently involved in a simple test that included nearly a hundred individuals, in which we all had to count the "f's" in a paragraph. The wide variety of answers concerning how many "f's"there were clearly demonstrated how differently everyone perceived and interpreted reality, even when it pertained to a simple test. There, quite clearly, is no "right", and it is self-centered to think that there is. The fact that certain individuals feel so motivated that they are right that they are emotionally disrupted as a resuult of others that disagree with them says far more about themselves than those who are suspossedly "wrong". :lol:

i'm also incredibly drunk and tired, so why don't you all go fuck yourselves. :wink:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5546085 - 04/23/06 12:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
There is no wrong or right. Not to try to sound all guru-like, but they are illusory.

Quote:

When people are just plain wrong it annoys me, especially when you can't make them see that.




this is quite possibly the most self-absorbed comment I have seen on these boards.

Things just are, and once you start acting and affecting things in your environment based on that ideology, instead of acting on the learned/made-up morals and ethics of yourself you will see that you act only in the present.




That can't be true because there can only be no right if there is no truth. If there is no truth then there is nothing, becomes something can only be something if it is in fact... something, and that something that it is would then be the truth, and if that truth were claimed by someone they would be "right." There is truth to everything, and all opinions are either "right" or "wrong" in the end, but remain opinions as long as the person is unaware of evidence to fully validate their belief.

"Things just are"
That alludes to a right and wrong, because what things 'are' is the thing which, when claimed, makes a person right or wrong. When racist claims are made they are also either right, in accordance with truth, or wrong. And while a racist claim might even be correct, when taken as a localized generality, the conclusion is still probably not correct.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5546093 - 04/23/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'm right, you're wrong, nanner nanner nanner....!    :tongue2:

I went out drinking tonight too, and EVERYONE knows that drunk people can NEVER be wrong....    :lol:


Quote:

fireworks_god said:
i'm also incredibly drunk and tired, so why don't you all go fuck yourselves. :wink:
.
:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Doooood, your sig is different....!?    :confused:
Or is it just me....?    :shiftyeyes:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: mr_kite]
    #5546190 - 04/23/06 01:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nothing is wrong, Everything is permissible!


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5546439 - 04/23/06 02:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Quote:

psilocyberin said:
There is no wrong or right. Not to try to sound all guru-like, but they are illusory.

Quote:

When people are just plain wrong it annoys me, especially when you can't make them see that.




this is quite possibly the most self-absorbed comment I have seen on these boards.

Things just are, and once you start acting and affecting things in your environment based on that ideology, instead of acting on the learned/made-up morals and ethics of yourself you will see that you act only in the present.




That can't be true because there can only be no right if there is no truth. If there is no truth then there is nothing, becomes something can only be something if it is in fact... something, and that something that it is would then be the truth, and if that truth were claimed by someone they would be "right." There is truth to everything, and all opinions are either "right" or "wrong" in the end, but remain opinions as long as the person is unaware of evidence to fully validate their belief.

"Things just are"
That alludes to a right and wrong, because what things 'are' is the thing which, when claimed, makes a person right or wrong. When racist claims are made they are also either right, in accordance with truth, or wrong. And while a racist claim might even be correct, when taken as a localized generality, the conclusion is still probably not correct.





right, there is no obsrvable truth. Even the most objective scientific studies are still based upon the most primitive of mans subjective perception.
the steady rate of falling bodies in a vaccuum: only observable through our sense of perception, or measuring devices based on our perception.

So, I will state that there is no universal truth in this universe, only a personal truth.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5546442 - 04/23/06 02:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Racism can be bashed quite easily. Simply ask the racist if he bases his ideologies upon theories about the 'most advanced' race on planet earth. He has to agree that the most advanced 'race' should be this, which exists for the longest time and had the most time for their evolution and development. Then explain, that human life started in Africa and that the black people are those, who as a race exist on planet earth for the longest time. In fact, it is assumed, that curly negro-hair is a sign for a further step in evolution.
And yes, of course there is wrong and right, as like there is good and bad.




1) there is no definitive proof that life started in africa, if anything, it s tarted in an area of Pangea which is now known as africa.
2) Anyone who has read any chapter in the book "Gun, Germs,and Steel" will be able to easily refute any statements which you have made thus fAR.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5546446 - 04/23/06 02:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"So, I will state that there is no universal truth in this universe, only a personal truth."

Your statement is valid from your point of view only though and using your current mind. If you take into account an improved mind, more dimensions perhaps, you may end up at a different statement.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5546473 - 04/23/06 03:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

only through assumption with the help of a little ignorance. the nihilist and the existentialist have it "most correct" in the way that all phenomenon can not be proven beyond our own minds.

Sure, it is an opinion, and an impossibly proven fact that truth beyond our perceptions is in itself, impossible to prove, but that is only because the proof is in the pudding.

All observable phenomenon is based upon the assumptionn that our perception of what we consider reality is a constant and not a variable, and there is nothing you can do or say which can prove otherwise.... in fact, I dare you to try and prove the above statement wrong.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5546482 - 04/23/06 03:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Define what you think we consider reality and I'll answer your question.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Being Wrong [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5546495 - 04/23/06 03:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

reality is that which you consider to be real only as a default because of no other perceptual awareness other than that of your current perceptual awareness of your surroundings.

even dreams are a product of perceptual awareness of your surroundings, even though innacurate, there is a short period of time where we are immersed in that false reality, what makes you think that some conscious waking perception of reality is so much superior to a dream state?

i hate to get all existential or solipsist, but to honestly believe that one ideology is "more right" than any other is just pure ignoarance through self-absorbed conditioning.


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