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johnuk
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Same cake, different day - shroom hydroponics
#5541886 - 04/21/06 06:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've been thinking for a while, a mycelium is just like our insides in that it looks for things to dissolve and 'eat' in the medium. If a human goes into a coma, they're fed nutrient paste because they can't chew and swallow on their own. With an old cake, you have a kind of similar problem in that you can't replace the used up medium with another solid, you can only try to expand it by putting the cake on some fresh medium.
I started wondering if perhaps there was some way to keep a cake alive by feeding nutrient directly into the cake when the medium source started to come to an end. From what I've read, I understand that the mycelium relies primarily on glucose for growth, which it obtains by extracellularly digesting the medium it's on.
I happened to have some cartons of liquid glucose in my kitchen for use in cooking. So I dissolved a carton, around 100ml at a guess, into some water and then fed it to a cake that was slowing down. I was expecting the mycelium to love it because it would be like a human eating raw sugar, no need to digest it and so lots of energy really quick.
Theoretically, the mycellium shouldn't care whether it has to digest the medium or whether it's put infront of it in a predigested form.
But I haven't seen much happening. The only thing that seems to be enjoying the glucose is the neurospora and other random fluffy contaminations in the air around the cake, which it's open to. They're not over running the cake, and it might just be that the primary mycelium is less active that they're showing up more. But it suggests that this kind of liquid medium feeding of a cake would need to occur below the casing layer, preferably in the cake's centre or at it's base via some punctured tubing put in the tray before filling; that should help keep contaminations on the casing layer from having anything to eat.
Next problem, what might Psilocybe mycelium like to eat? I can only think of a couple of reasons for why my glucose didn't work so well.
1.) Mix was too strong, causing osmotic pressure to pull water out of the mycelium. To avoid this I tried starting out with only small amounts in quite a lot of water. 2.) Not strong enough, although I did end up putting quite a bit in so I'd have expected at least one or two more fruits to appear. Still, could possibly be this. 3.) The extracellular enzymes don't break the medium down into glucose but some intermediatory that's taken in and then further broken down within the mycellium. That might mean that there aren't any channels for pure glucose to enter the mycelium through, so it isn't taken up (osmotic pressure would then be a bigger problem as the glucose accumulates in the surrounding medium). That makes a bit of sense because pure glucose doesn't occur in huge amounts naturally, pure sugars are quite rare. But sugars like fructose and sucrose are easy to isomerise and good energy supplies, which makes me wonder if a mycelium wouldn't have at least some extracellular isomerase enzymes and a means of getting the glucose back into their mycelium. 4.) I've totally over estimated how much the mycelium enjoys glucose. Although, glucose is a pretty universal energy supply for life that digests it's food in such a heavily enzymatic manner. The mycelium wants the nutrients in a simple form before they're absorbed (polys to monos), glucose is such a simple form. Could the mycelium be sugar isomer specific? E.g. they can tell the difference between sucrose, fructose and glucose, and care. Perhaps Psilocybe mycelium wants more amino acid like nutrient? This doesn't follow very well given that they grow so well on carbohydrate based medium, such as rice and seed; these would break down into polysaccharides and sugars, not amino acids and fats. I've read that mycelium can secrete glucoamylase, which splits up glucose based polymers (Starches to sugars). Another text states that glucose decreases aerial growth, which might explain the lack of additional fruiting. Yet another text suggests that glucose and lactose nutrient can be used for Penicillin growth. So the jury seems out on glucose.
The application of this is obvious. If we could find something the mycelium, Psilocybe in particular, enjoyed eating and that we could break down into a liquid form easily (preferably something that dissolves as opposed to forming a suspension, which is then more likely to clog up around the distribution points slowing further nutrient addition, the distribution and overall growth rate), we could feed that nutrient directly into the mycelium so's we wouldn't need to keep rebuilding cakes as the solid medium ran out. In fact, the solid medium need not even have any nutrient value of it's own, but could act as a support and storage layer. E.g. perlite / vermiculite would soak up the nutrient added and storage it for the mycelium. You'd be growing the mycelium hydroponically, probably with a very slow flood -> use up system; basically just feeding them every now and again with a liquid medium. You could do that very easily with a piece of punctured tubing burried in the mycelium layer before it fully ties itself together. Measured quantities of nutrient would then be injected with a syringe, being distributed throughout the mycelium by the piece of tubing.
Contaminations would be a problem with normal PF cakes, but trays that were capped with a nutrient depleted layer of casing should be able to keep contaminations off for quite a while.
The only thing stopping this from working is that I have yet to find a simple nutrient that the mycelium can survive on. I've spent a lot of time searching through the net for a few guesses but virtually all of the information stops at 'they digest things extracellularly'.
So I figured I'd put my thoughts up on here and see if we can find something that works between us.
The way I see it, if Psilocybe is so happy living on rice and starchy medium, it's likely that whatever it's breaking the medium down into is some form of sugar or basic starch; monosaccharides.
One simple method of this might be to try a mixture of just starch in water. Boil and mash up potatoes or rice, get into into a super fine slurry, disperse it in a little water and try that. It's possible the mycelium could be taking up the medium in rice and seed cakes directly, but lots of those can be quite big molecules (which don't fit through membranes very well). If they are taking up bigger molecules, the nutrient problem is simple, it's just starch based mush, the finer the better. Maybe you could get fancy on it with a blender and boiling to get it down to a milk like level of distribution, a colloid.
Any thoughts or ideas? John
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LochRaven
mycophile


Registered: 01/31/06
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Re: Same cake, different day - shroom hydroponics [Re: johnuk]
#5545368 - 04/22/06 08:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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do you think this method would even be practical due to senescence? would you have to change up the solution? could there be a method of distributing the liquid solution throughout the mycelium? if there could be some sort of substrate that the mycelium could chill on that wouldnt be consumed by the mycelium and that could have the liquid solution wicked into and then change up the nutrients to avoid senescence... hmmmmm
those stone(is it stone?) bubble wands come to mind. think about a network of those that the mycelium grew around. with one part of the stone coming out of the mycelium going into a cup of the solution...
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johnuk
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Re: Same cake, different day - shroom hydroponics [Re: LochRaven]
#5548117 - 04/23/06 04:51 PM (18 years, 30 days ago) |
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Distributing the nutrient in the mycelium would be easy. Just get a length of silicon tubing, close one end, puncture it along it's length and then burry it in the tray as you empty the cake(s) out. You can buy it at model shops for carrying the fuel in model planes and things like that, it's just about the right size that a syringe (minus the blade) would plug into it nicely. Leave one end open and hanging out the side of the tray. Inject into the open end to feed. Or, like you say, find something that will wick up the nutrient from a film (verm / perl would probably work). You'd probably want the absolute top casing layer to be something not particularly absorbent so's that it doesn't wick up the nutrient and allow contamination to grow on the surface, some kind of crushed plastic, rubber, glass or stone maybe?
I don't know if mycelium aging is as important as just lack of food, mycelium can live in the same spot under a lawn for years and years.
I should say, I'm experimenting with my tray of French Brown cap gourmets, not Psilocybe, so it's possible that Psilocybe might like glucose more.
I tried a mixture of regular table sugar a few minutes ago just wondering if perhaps there might be some degree of isomer specific selection at work.
If that doesn't work, I don't have any fructose handy (I think I have some maltose but it's in agar form), so I might try adding starch from boiled down potatoes or rice; we had boiled potatoes with dinner tonight and have some left over, so it may be their destiny to take part!
My French Brown caps are growing on hardwood chips I think, which suggests that if I see any sucess with these solutions it may be more effective on Psilocybe, which seems to like starchy medium. If I can get some Psilocybe cakes going I'll give the glucose / sucrose another try as well as some complexes, like starch.
Anyone could try this. If you have a cake that's slowing down / stopped, try revitalising it with a nutrient broth of some kind, like those I've suggested or you can make up some of your own, and document any changes. Got nothing to loose since the cake will be going in the bin soon anyway!
Edited by johnuk (04/23/06 05:02 PM)
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Aztec03
Stop that itchnow!

Registered: 04/24/06
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Re: Same cake, different day - shroom hydroponics [Re: johnuk]
#5557139 - 04/26/06 12:17 AM (18 years, 27 days ago) |
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Ah, well, I have not tried this myself, but a winner of a mushroom fair at Mycomasters (page here: http://www.mycomasters.com/Winners.html ) did a rather loose experiment with both a cow manure solution and a Fish Fertilizer solution.
The whole story is on that page, but I'll leave a breakdown.
The fish emulsion was a brand name, called "Alaska Fish Fertilizer" and it contained:
Total Nitrogen 5.0% ammoniacal nitrogen 0.50% water insoluble nitrogen 0.75% other water soluble nitrogen 3.75% Available Phosphoric Acid 1.0% Soluble Potash 1.0% Chlorine 4.0% Primary nutrients derived from fresh fish
The guy who fed his mushies made a dilute solution of 1/4 teaspoon fertilizer with 1 quart of water. This was 1/3 the recommended strength on the bottle.
Basically, the fish solution fed mushies came out healthier in appearance, and heavier by almost an ounce.
I haven't even begun my first growth yet, but I'm a rather big bookworm, so I figured I'd try to help however I can. When I get a chance, I will definitely try to revive some cakes once they are depleted.
Good luck!
Edited by Aztec03 (04/26/06 12:18 AM)
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Same cake, different day - shroom hydroponics [Re: johnuk]
#5576352 - 05/01/06 04:48 AM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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A better nutrient solution would be liquid malt extract, which can be bought at any place that sells beer brewing supplies.
If you dilute it it will contaminate quickly, if you use it full strength and keep the cakes/casings well hydrated it might work.
Maybe dunk your cakes overnight and then inject the malt extract into multiple locations with a marinade injector.
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thenewguy05
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Re: Same cake, different day - shroom hydroponics [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#5584740 - 05/03/06 08:06 AM (18 years, 20 days ago) |
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if you are trying to put nutrients back into the cake i would have gotten some poo-tea and dunked it when there were no pins on it.
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shirley knott
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Re: Same cake, different day - shroom hydroponics [Re: thenewguy05]
#5585350 - 05/03/06 11:33 AM (18 years, 20 days ago) |
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dunking a cake in anything other than pure water is not advisable
-------------------- buh
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thenewguy05
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Re: Same cake, different day - shroom hydroponics [Re: shirley knott]
#5585551 - 05/03/06 12:18 PM (18 years, 20 days ago) |
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maybe inject some poo tea then???
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Same cake, different day - shroom hydroponics [Re: thenewguy05]
#5585701 - 05/03/06 12:53 PM (18 years, 20 days ago) |
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Don't confuse dunking with hydroponics. Mushrooms don't grow hydroponically. To prove that, I will send a free microscope to the first person who can grow a ten gram or larger fruit on a rockwell cube with nothing but liquid solution, and show the rest of us how to duplicate the experiment. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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thenewguy05
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Re: Same cake, different day - shroom hydroponics [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5585727 - 05/03/06 12:59 PM (18 years, 20 days ago) |
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can we hollow it out and fill the inside with colonized grains???
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Same cake, different day - shroom hydroponics [Re: thenewguy05]
#5585746 - 05/03/06 01:03 PM (18 years, 20 days ago) |
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lol NO! RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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thenewguy05
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Re: Same cake, different day - shroom hydroponics [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5585775 - 05/03/06 01:11 PM (18 years, 20 days ago) |
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i know... just being a smart-ass! i wouldn't allow that either.
this also means no filling the rockwool with poo tea no dumping agar on it, no nutrients at all. just rockwool and water. good luck. the shit is practically absorbent Styrofoam.
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fastfred
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Re: Same cake, different day - shroom hydroponics [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5586471 - 05/03/06 04:09 PM (18 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Don't confuse dunking with hydroponics. Mushrooms don't grow hydroponically. To prove that, I will send a free microscope to the first person who can grow a ten gram or larger fruit on a rockwell cube with nothing but liquid solution, and show the rest of us how to duplicate the experiment. RR
Hmmm... That sounds pretty difficult, but not completely impossible. I'm assuming you meant rockwool? I also assume I could use some sort of pump or mister to distribute the solution...
What kind of scope? Got anything with phase-contrast or darkfield?
-FF
-------------------- It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed "If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP) I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Same cake, different day - shroom hydroponics [Re: fastfred]
#5587399 - 05/03/06 07:37 PM (18 years, 20 days ago) |
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lol. I meant to say rockwool, but had been reading an article on fighter planes and brain farted.
I don't care if you soak the rockwool cube in manure tea or anything else you wish, as long as it disolves in water. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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