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 GabbaDj
BTH
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,661
Loc: By The Lake
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 Re: America. the threat to its self...  [Re: Ulysees]
#555172 - 02/18/02 08:34 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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U 2 get a room already... I hear OTD has nice cheep places to lay your bitchins...
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GabbaDj
FAMM.ORG
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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 Re: America. the threat to its self... [Re: GabbaDj]
#555679 - 02/18/02 08:14 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey Dork, what's up? Good to see ya. Nice avatar.
Haven't you heard? OTD is out. This is the new OTD. Gotta keep up with the times Gabba. 
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 kropotkin
Stranger
Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 10
Last seen: 21 years, 7 months
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 Re: America. the threat to its self... [Re: Ulysees]
#555930 - 02/19/02 01:34 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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hey all i just had to reply to this thread. This is the first time i've been in this forum for a while and i see some turbo posting "patriot" has chosen this place to spread his filth. Thanx for keeping my faith in humanity alive for another day ulysees. I watched a program tonight on VH1 tonight about white power hate music and I insatntly thought of this guy above when i read his stuff. Am i alone in making the connection between patriotism, nationalism and fascism? thanx again ulysees
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Comments on patriotism from an Anarchist? Can we say "Irony"? [Re: kropotkin]
#555981 - 02/19/02 03:50 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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kropotkin writes:
"Am i alone in making the connection between patriotism, nationalism and fascism?"
From the Oxford Dictionary of Current English:
patriot: one who is devoted to and ready to defend his country
nationalism: patriotic feeling or principles or efforts; policy of national independence
Clearly there is a connection between the two concepts. Both presuppose the existence of a nation, something foreign to Anarchist principles.
fascism: extreme right-wing totalitarian political system or views; as originally prevailing in Italy 1922-1943.
An elaboration from Encyclopedia Brittanica:
"All forms of fascism have three common features: anticonservatism, a myth of ethnic or national renewal, and a conception of a nation in crisis."
Obviously one can be a patriot or a nationalist without being a fascist. Is a Swedish patriot a fascist? Is an Irish nationalist who believes Ireland should be independent a totalitarian fascist? Were members of the Dutch resistance in 1942 fascists?
Even American Libertarians and Green Party members are both patriots and nationalists. None are fascists.
It is not surprising that you twist and distort universally-accepted meanings of words. It is one of the defining characteristics of anarchist apologists, so don't feel bad... you are not alone in your exaggeration. Anarchism as a political sytem is so patently absurd that its proponents MUST use deceit and rhetorical chicanery rather than dispassionate and objective arguments in their attempts to try to con others into accepting anarchism as a rational alternative to a constitutionally limited government.
pinky
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Ironic? I guess... [Re: Phred]
#556941 - 02/19/02 11:37 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's funny that you take something that could very well be a misuse of words, or a less than dictionary quality perception of those words, and twist it into something about the person being an Anarchist. Did I miss something? Maybe I did.
Let's twist again, like we did last summer... come on now, everybody!
All the people on the right wing.
All the people on the left wing.
All the Anarchists in the house, you bad!
I do feel pretty bad about my part in hijacking this thread, sorry Gabba.
Americans are a threat to themselves. If nobody else can fill that position, they might as well do it on their own.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: America. the threat to its self... [Re: kropotkin]
#556950 - 02/19/02 11:44 PM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Oh, you're welcome by the way. I try to keep it real.
And I do see what you're saying, though pinkshark was probably right about the actual word choice.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Ironic? I guess... [Re: Ulysees]
#557093 - 02/20/02 02:42 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ulysees writes:
"It's funny that you take something that could very well be a misuse of words, or a less than dictionary quality perception of those words, and twist it into something about the person being an Anarchist. Did I miss something? Maybe I did."
No "twisting" involved, I assure you. He is proclaiming by his choice of username that he is an Anarchist. Peter Kropotkin (1842-1921) was a famous Russian Anarchist.... right up there with Errico Malatesta, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, Michael Bakunin, Emma Goldman, Noam Chomsky and others.
Kropotkin wrote prolifically on the subject, and his works are widely quoted in Anarchist propaganda. See "Anarchism: Its Philosophy and Ideal" (1896), "The Conquest of Bread"(1906), "Communism and Anarchy (1901)" and around thirty other major and minor works.
From "The Conquest of Bread" -- "Anarchy leads to Communism, and Communism to Anarchy, both alike being expressions of the predominant tendency in modern societies, the pursuit of equality."
"We hold further that Communism is not only desirable, but that existing societies, founded on Individualism, are inevitably impelled in the direction of Communism."
At least Kropotkin was honest about the connection between Anarchy and Communism, unlike modern day Anarcho-Syndicalists who do their utmost to conceal the fact that their ideal society cannot exist without forceful restraint of its members.
pinky
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Ironic? I guess... [Re: Phred]
#557097 - 02/20/02 02:51 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, I take my username from greek mythology but you don't see me sailing around in a ship full of Argonauts...
Anyhow, thanks for the info. I'm not really into the anarchy scene, I wasn't aware of this guy. Maybe I'll look into it one of these days.
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kropotkin
Stranger
Registered: 08/27/00
Posts: 10
Last seen: 21 years, 7 months
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 Re: Ironic? I guess... [Re: Ulysees]
#558184 - 02/21/02 03:28 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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yeah I would consider myself an anarchist, that's why I chose that user name. I think what your missing about anarchist communism isthe anarchist in front of the communism. It pretty much negates the idea of state(or forced) communism as the ellimination of all power would be the foundation of any anarchist communist society. I disagree with the assertion that anarchism is any kind of "system". to me anarchism is the highest form of social order in that it's totally voluntary and unforced. one last thing, Is anyone suprised by the hypocrisy of "right wingers" posting on drug message boards? I am constantly amazed that people will defend and condone actions of a state which would like nothing more than to lock all of you in cages for years. or do you not use drugs? If you don't why are you here? If you do please explain this puzzling contradiction. thanx
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Ironic? I guess... [Re: kropotkin]
#558311 - 02/21/02 08:50 AM (21 years, 7 months ago) |
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kropotkin writes:
"I disagree with the assertion that anarchism is any kind of 'system'."
What would you call it then? "Model"? "Theory"? "Way of self-governance"? Anarchists I have debated here in the past have been universally adamant that Anarchist societies would in fact have a degree of organization. This necessarily implies SOME form of sytem. Oxford Dictionary of Modern English:
system: complex whole; set of connected things or parts; organized body of things.
"to me anarchism is the highest form of social order in that it's totally voluntary and unforced."
Unless, of course, two anarchists enter into a voluntary contract in which one agrees to provide his labor to another in exchange for currency. Since by Anarchist philosophy this automatically means that the employer is "dominating" the employee, it is forbidden in an Anarchist society, even though the agreement was reached in a " voluntary and unforced" manner, and has no negative effect on other members of the society. So much for freedom, eh?
"Is anyone suprised by the hypocrisy of "right wingers" posting on drug message boards?"
Well, first of all, since Anarchists tend to be a little ...ummm... CREATIVE with their definitions, it is hard to know exactly WHO you might consider a Right-Winger.
I am a Libertarian (do you consider Libertarians to be Right Wingers?), since I believe that the only legitimate function of government is to ensure that the rights of its constituents are not violated. Since the only way an individual's rights can be violated is through physical force, the government clearly must be limited strictly to protecting its citizens from the initiation of physical force -- police, courts, military. Nothing more.
Obviously criminalizing marijuana or mushrooms or heroin or methamphetamine or cocaine or ANY other drug is a violation of the rights of individuals, so every government in existence on Planet Earth today is guilty of violating the rights of its citizens.
Republicans (Right Wingers) smoke dope. Right Wingers believe in the rights of individuals. They want LESS government interference in the lives of individuals. Not to the same extent as Libertarians, mind you.
Democrats (Left Wingers) smoke dope. Left Wingers believe in the "rights" of the collective. They want MORE government interference in the lives of individuals. Not to the same extent as Communists, mind you.
"I am constantly amazed that people will defend and condone actions of a state which would like nothing more than to lock all of you in cages for years."
I can't speak for the Right Wingers that post here, but I certainly don't condone every action of the American government. I am not an American, by the way. But the American government certainly gets more things right than any other government does.
"or do you not use drugs?"
I sure do. Not as much or as many as I did three decades ago, when I was a proto-Anarchist, but I use mushrooms, nicotine, alcohol, a line or two of cocaine every two or three years or so, and the very occasional cup of coffee. I used to smoke HUMUNGOUS amounts of hashish on a daily basis for years, but I've probably smoked less than a gram of hash or weed in the last twenty years. A personal decision on my part... has nothing to do with government.
"please explain this puzzling contradiction."
No contradiction. My life is MINE. I am not part of a collective. I do what pleases me, and leave others free to do the same.
pinky
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