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InvisibleBuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,733
Hmm...
    #5533183 - 04/19/06 01:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

If the Christian god is Omnipotent. That means he knows the past, present, and future. That means he knows what you are going to do with you life when you are born. Therefor he already knows when he creates you if your going to heaven or hell. Why would he create someone if he knew they where going to be damned in hell for all eternity if he is a loving god ?


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OfflineZenith
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Re: Hmm... [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5533246 - 04/19/06 01:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quite interesting argument, but when you say that to Christian fellow she/he might reply something like "god works in mysterious ways".

I have heard something like that many times when I talk about religion.


--------------------
I?m not very sure where does the rug start and I end.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Hmm... [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5533327 - 04/19/06 01:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
If the Christian god is Omnipotent. That means he knows the past, present, and future. That means he knows what you are going to do with you life when you are born. Therefor he already knows when he creates you if your going to heaven or hell. Why would he create someone if he knew they where going to be damned in hell for all eternity if he is a loving god ?




I could ramble on and on, ?but...

I think this might provide an answer!?

'Therefor he already knows when he creates you if your going to heaven or hell.'

..heaven AND hell!

"only your focus, can narrow 'it' down.. "
-Unknown :P


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InvisibleMellowMood
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Re: Hmm... [Re: Gomp]
    #5533482 - 04/19/06 02:26 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well im Agnostic...but if i were christian id probably say something like "To give them a chance." but since im agnostic ill say it like this "To give them a chance?"  :bigblunt:


--------------------
"Im a dreamin man
yes thats my problem
I cant tell when im
not being real"


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Hmm... [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5533597 - 04/19/06 03:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

That is a very literal interpretation.

The existence of Hell is not literal. It began with the author Matthew and became streamlined into Christian orthodoxy decades after the life of Jesus. The idea of physical suffering in the afterlife was then borrowed by Prophet Muhammad, and now it is a dominating theme in both fundamentalist Christianity and Islam. Before that, symbols of Hell were not literal and sadistic, rather they were states of mind, states of consciousness, states of existence on earth itself, or states of spiritual awareness.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Hmm... [Re: Basilides]
    #5533793 - 04/19/06 04:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
That is a very literal interpretation.

The existence of Hell is not literal. It began with the author Matthew and became streamlined into Christian orthodoxy decades after the life of Jesus. The idea of physical suffering in the afterlife was then borrowed by Prophet Muhammad, and now it is a dominating theme in both fundamentalist Christianity and Islam. Before that, symbols of Hell were not literal and sadistic, rather they were states of mind, states of consciousness, states of existence on earth itself, or states of spiritual awareness.




That is true although, I have never met a single Christian who would admit it.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Hmm... [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5533902 - 04/19/06 04:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

He's a jokester alright! :wink:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineOctavius
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dblaney]
    #5533944 - 04/19/06 05:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

To me it would seem to be that heaven and hell are descriptions of what will happen durning our life. Hell would be not having a job, not having a car and not having a life.

In heaven you will have many friends, you will find a good job and be happy and wealthy for the rest of your lives.

Octavius


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Hmm... [Re: Octavius]
    #5534021 - 04/19/06 05:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

In other words, heaven = the fulfillment of various desires and hell = the failure to fulfull various desires?

This is indeed a view many, many have. However, if you are able to stop caring in the least about these desires, and take the power back from them, then you will be much closer to yoga.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Hmm... [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5534099 - 04/19/06 05:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Why would he create someone if he knew they where going to be damned in hell for all eternity if he is a loving god ?

It's simple, really. God is an sadistic Calvinist who created the vast majority of life for the unmatchable entertainment of being able to observe it's suffering.  :heart:


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OfflineTheGus
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Re: Hmm... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5534232 - 04/19/06 06:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

hell is simply another place on the astral realm, just as heaven is... its not a bad place where bad people go to be tortured, it is simply another plane of existence where about demons and the like intermingle and create their own reality in which to exist

actually i was just corrected, there is a place for people to be tortured labeled appropriately 'the pit' which is a hole basically you fall for an eternity... and into your own personal hell you go, few to ever escape


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos


Edited by TheGus (04/19/06 06:40 PM)


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

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Re: Hmm... [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5534291 - 04/19/06 06:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Like it was already said, there is no eternal hell taught in the bible that people are going to after this life.

In addition, if the future has not yet existed but is being woven as we go then there is nothing to be known of the future, except what someone plans to make of it, right? An omnipotent god could make anything of it they wish, so they could technically know the future, but that doesn't mean by means of looking into it, rather instead by declaring what they are going to make of it.

I don't believe time exists in a line of past present and future. I think all existence is one endless moment. If all the energy in the universe never diminishes then nothing ever really "ages," that energy just takes different forms.

Therefore I don't believe that time travel is possible because I believe we are already in the only moment that exists, and will ever exist.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Hmm... [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5534394 - 04/19/06 07:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

If the Christian god is Omnipotent. That means he knows the past, present, and future. That means he knows what you are going to do with you life when you are born. Therefor he already knows when he creates you if your going to heaven or hell. Why would he create someone if he knew they where going to be damned in hell for all eternity if he is a loving god ?

The future itself is actively ordered by Divine purpose and will. It is not a matter of seeing down the "tunnel of time", it is a matter of creating the tunnel itself and actively ordering all events, thus creating the tunnel. Of course the tunnel is known, because God Himself created it.

While God is love, God is also just. All things are for the praise of God's glorious attributes, both in damnation and in salvation.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Hmm... [Re: fivepointer]
    #5534428 - 04/19/06 07:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

All things are for the praise of God's glorious attributes

God sounds kinda full of Himself...

Or maybe you're suggesting that He's rather insecure and so needed to create others in order to make Himself feel better?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Hmm... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5534564 - 04/19/06 07:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Why would he create someone if he knew they where going to be damned in hell for all eternity if he is a loving god ?

It's simple, really. God is an sadistic Calvinist who created the vast majority of life for the unmatchable entertainment of being able to observe it's suffering.  :heart:




I like to think God created the majority of life so that it might know Him. Without manifestation, God is an unknown treasure in Her own solitude.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Hmm... [Re: Basilides]
    #5534611 - 04/19/06 08:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I like to think God created the majority of life so that it might know Him.

I don't think it's possible to be the subject AND object of one's own knowledge.

Can fire burn itself?

Language is weird like that though. Perhaps unitive knowledge of Itself would be more appropriate diction?

Without manifestation, God is an unknown treasure in Her own solitude.

There can be none Other than the Infinite, therefore there can never be such thing as solitude from Its perspective.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dblaney]
    #5534637 - 04/19/06 08:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
I like to think God created the majority of life so that it might know Him.

I don't think it's possible to be the subject AND object of one's own knowledge.

Can fire burn itself?




Can fire know itself? :grin:

More revealing question into the matter:

Can awareness be aware of awareness?

:mushroom2:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Hmm... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5534642 - 04/19/06 08:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I've swallowed my own mouth before.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Hmm... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5534646 - 04/19/06 08:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

How did it taste?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dblaney]
    #5534650 - 04/19/06 08:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Like sweet & sour sauce.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Hmm... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5534662 - 04/19/06 08:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Can awareness be aware of awareness?

I think awareness necessarily has to be aware of [it's own] awareness. If awareness is not aware of awareness, is it really aware?


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dblaney]
    #5534668 - 04/19/06 08:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Hmm.

I think it may be for an increased ecstasy, perhaps? We are of course essentially sparks of God embodied. I also considered the possibility that this is how God knows Himself, through the restoration of the broken vessels. I relate existence (along with the billions of broken vessels) with the ideas of God, as God's dream. Of course, God will always be One, but is "our" experience the same as God's? God's experience I like to think is a burning compassion-love for the mirror that is "us", while our experience AS the Divine is to drown in this unbearable compassion and love. Like desire crashing into desire, or two divinities mixing into One (I wrote a poem about it)

As for solitude, was there ever a point when divinity did not embody itself?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Hmm... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5534671 - 04/19/06 08:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Can awareness be aware of awareness?

Damn koans :tongue:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Hmm... [Re: Basilides]
    #5534686 - 04/19/06 08:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

God's experience I like to think is a burning compassion-love for the mirror that is "us", while our experience AS the Divine is to drown in this unbearable compassion and love.

That's a fun metaphor, but be careful not to anthropomorphize Him :crazy:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dblaney]
    #5534712 - 04/19/06 08:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Oh come on... :smirk:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Hmm... [Re: Basilides]
    #5534938 - 04/19/06 09:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Okay


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dblaney]
    #5535060 - 04/19/06 09:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:heart:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Hmm... [Re: Basilides]
    #5535086 - 04/19/06 09:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:hug: :grin:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Hmm... [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5535888 - 04/20/06 12:39 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

omnipotent means all powerful and omniscient means all knowing. flying spaghetti monster is the man


--------------------
Namaste


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Hmm... [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5536592 - 04/20/06 08:05 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:5 speaks of being predestined to be "sons of God." The OT Book of Daniel speaks of resurrection into "life" or "eternal contempt." One way of looking at this deterministic reality is to conceive of every 'saved' and every 'damned' individual as being the same saved or damned person. In other words, there is this duality of suffering (Hell) and bliss (Heaven) which all humans can partake of.

Heaven and Hell are sometimes thought of as eternal states, but also considered to be created by God, but they can't be both. If created, they partake of duration, time, and thus had a beginning and by corollary, an end. We don't usually think of the air in our lungs as being 'us.' Air is somehow thought of as external to our human beinghood, yet we depend intimately in the core of our being upon each 'inspiration' and each 'expiration.' Note the meanings of inspiration (in-breath and spiritual insight) and expiration (out-breath and death). Similarly, we partake of 'salvation' or 'damnation' as two poles of the same determined Reality, with free-will coming in depending upon our choice of identification with the 'damnable' or the 'savable' aspects of our beinghood. These may well be the Wrathful and Merciful aspects of God which contribute to our 'image and likeness.' From the perspective of our personality, our egocentric point of view, it is all about pain or pleasure, Hell or Heaven. From the point of view of our True Selfhood, our 'being-in-Christ,' we ARE a balance, a harmony (Tiphereth in the Kabbalistic Tree of Life) between Wrath (Geburah) and Mercy (Chesed/Gedulah). When we are identified with Tiphereth, we stand in harmony with these metaphysical extremes, and transcend them. The 'Light' is neither 'burning us' in Hell or 'Illuminating us' in Heaven because we have become the Reality to which we aspired and it is no longer about our personality and our ego which we are no longer. It is not about individual egos experiencing Heaven or Hell even though the various myths depict the opposites that way.

This perspective depends entirely on transcending the condition that the Bible forces us to decide upon as either 'good' or 'evil.' Paradoxically, being in Harmony with Wrath and Mercy puts us in a state that is also referred to as Rahamim - Compassion, as well as Harmony (Tiphereth). Compassion saves.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Hmm... [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5538216 - 04/20/06 05:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RedNucleus said:
omnipotent means all powerful and omniscient means all knowing. flying spaghetti monster is the man




woah?

what is this "flying spaghetti monster"?

I always seen God, to be the "spagetti moster" (in Norwegian)

Like if you zoom ... out, form an atom..
Like this: http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/

..can do!
.. you if you zoom further out, would find a brain looking endlessness.. I called this brain the spaghetti monster, as it is what it look like.. a organic inert-connected, superimposed spaghetti brain! :P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dblaney]
    #5538427 - 04/20/06 07:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
God sounds kinda full of Himself...





I Am.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dorkus]
    #5538584 - 04/20/06 07:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
Quote:

dblaney said:
God sounds kinda full of Himself...





I Am.





Okay, go on...


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dblaney]
    #5539059 - 04/20/06 10:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Go where?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dorkus]
    #5539462 - 04/21/06 12:45 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

"Go where? You go!"
-- Anonymous


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dorkus]
    #5540547 - 04/21/06 12:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I was hoping you might elaborate a bit more on your previous statement.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Hmm... [Re: Gomp]
    #5540561 - 04/21/06 12:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

if you look up flying spaghetti monster, it's a parody response to the intelligent design education idea.


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Namaste


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Re: Hmm... [Re: dblaney]
    #5541235 - 04/21/06 04:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
I was hoping you might elaborate a bit more on your previous statement.




I just meant that even though you were sarcastic when you called God full of himself, it was spot on. I am God and everything is inside of me. I am full of my Self.  :smile:


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OfflineOmEgAx1
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dorkus]
    #5541240 - 04/21/06 04:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Im not gonna lie thats some very psychopathic rational there madelbrot :P


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Re: Hmm... [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #5541251 - 04/21/06 04:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Why?

eta: Size is relative. It is all a circle.


Edited by dr_mandelbrot (04/21/06 04:42 PM)


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OfflineOmEgAx1
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dorkus]
    #5541271 - 04/21/06 04:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

because how can you sum up god to be within yourself when the entire human race is a mere fraction of the existance that god has created, everything is a part of god but everything is NOT a part of us, we are nothing more than tools of god.


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Re: Hmm... [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #5541279 - 04/21/06 04:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I repeat that size is relative and circular. We are the eyes (I) of the world, but do not exist as individuals. There is no-one home.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Hmm... [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #5541280 - 04/21/06 04:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Tools?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Re: Hmm... [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #5541312 - 04/21/06 04:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I have to add that I do not claim to know this, only speculating.

But you seem to identify with your ego as yourself. I think what you started a thread on recently, about watching things unfold before they take place while on high doses, could be explained by this. You are watching a show through many lenses. The experience of OmEgAx only one perspective, but not really who you are. You are the watcher behind the curtain. You are god. And everything is in everything. Everything is everything. Remember your projection of energy thread a long time back? It is in the nature of holograms that every fraction includes the Whole. We are Holy. :smile: We are God.


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OfflineOmEgAx1
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dorkus]
    #5541364 - 04/21/06 05:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

That is a good way to believe it, that projection of energy thread was one of my simpler ideas that I had in my quest to make sence of reality, there is truth to it but I find theres alot more questions it ends up asking as with any answere.

I believe people to be simple tools that can be influenced to do anything, and the experiences laid out infront of us dictate nearly everything we do, luckily theres a very very slight randomness factor to our physical reality that we dont yet understand (look up quantum physics), so it brings the question of how much free will do we really have? There has to be atleast a small degree due to the nature of reality, but a majority of the factors of most individuals thoughts can be manipulated in such a way that they are easily tooled without them realizing it...

I only feel a true power within very select individuals, but I dont feel that same power with other individuals unless they are grouped together, and even then, I sometimes feel more power in an animal than some people. With that in mind, if we are god, all living things must be god, which would imply that all matter has the greatness of god, and then even beyond that, god is simply too magnificent, I find it much more likely for there to be a distant species that has a true connection with god, which would make us tools.


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Re: Hmm... [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #5541596 - 04/21/06 06:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I think true power comes from true acceptance. Free will is an oxymoron. Get rid of your will by acceptance, then you'll be free. Immersed in the flow of tao without preferences. Your illusion of free will is what separates you from God. That is to die to ones self, to let go of everything.

Not saying I'm there of course, still just speculating.


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Re: Hmm... [Re: dorkus]
    #5541838 - 04/21/06 08:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

dr, yes, but letting go free will, joining acceptance, only really works in the real tao, that is the balanced nature. In modern western 'artificial' society, we need our free will to find that balance again. If we would let go here, we would been catched and manipulated very fast, like omegax1 assumes, so we would loose our natural balance, the tao. I think, that naturally happens to animals too, if you bring them out of their natural context. They have no free will and if humans with no tao treat them, they will loose their tao too, get sick and die.
So, in essence, here in the land of crazy humans, we need our (free) will to get kind of rid of it again to enter the awareness of  tao :wink:
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Hmm... [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5542446 - 04/21/06 11:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Tao is eternally perfect. There is as much Tao in modern western 'artificial' society as in anywhere and anything else. It's just up to you to recognize it as so and to embrace it.

One can't lose or gain Tao. One can embrace it or one can be ignorant of it.

As to free will, here's an analogy. Imagine a stream. Upon close examination, it appears that there are two straws drifting down the stream. One of the straws is pointed down the stream, in the direction of the flow. Nothing gets in its way because wherever the stream goes, the straw goes. The other straw is fighting the current. It's trying to turn horizontal, perpendicular to the stream.

Our free will consists of our ability to either accept the direction the stream is going in, like the first straw, or to fight it with all sorts of desires, attachments, and aversions, causing suffering.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineOmEgAx1
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dblaney]
    #5542918 - 04/22/06 02:47 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yea well unfortunately for me due to natural selection I happen to have a brain "miswiring" that supposedly occurs in 1/25 people, and if it really does occur at that rate, those of you lucky enough not to have the trait need to be much more careful than you think. The more I think about it and the more I research it the more I am worried for the survival of the human race as it is. I think you all mis-interpret the extent Im saying free will has in our lives.


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Re: Hmm... [Re: dblaney]
    #5543092 - 04/22/06 04:35 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, there is tao everywhere, but isn't tao the balance of ying and yang ?
I saw a dokumentation about Tai Chi. They keep saying, things are born our of the ying, grow in the yang and then exist in the balance of ying and yang, the tao.
That is, what I meant as balance and that is, why we have to search it. I think, western societies have left the balanced state and it is harder to find balanced tao there, than in plain nature.
I can not follow the human stream into its own destruction, if I recognize my free will and the balanced tao :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Hmm... [Re: dorkus]
    #5543179 - 04/22/06 07:02 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
Immersed in the flow of tao without preferences.




You mean to say, immersed in the flow with preferences, but without addictions. :grin:

Our minds are able to direct that which flows through us. That ability, is, of course, simply a manifestation of that which is flowing through us. The ability to choose can be employed without becoming attached to the outcome of the choice, or the fact that one is making the choice. Its the flow choosing how to flow, in a manner that does not impede its state of flowing. :wink:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Hmm... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5545002 - 04/22/06 09:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

No, I did mean to say no preferences. I remember dosing up on microdots in my apartment some years back, with pen and paper. When I woke up the day after all my trip log said was no preferences

I have preferences, but the final aim would be the elimination of even those. Preferences indicates a worldview of subject-object. In Union (Yoga) the subject vanishes, and that is the total immersion in the flow of Tao. That is true acceptance. The self must die.

Allow me to quote Ken Keyes Jr from Handbook to Higher Consciousness where he writes about the seventh center and final stage of the trip:

"Because one has transcended all personal boundaries, and experiences no separation from anyone or anything in the world, serving "others" is the only thing to do in life. For there are no "others". Everything is experienced from an "us" space. [...] Achieving it usually requires a detached life style and a long period of intense consciousness growth practice. Even preferences must be eliminated to reach this Center."

:wink:


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Hmm... [Re: OmEgAx1]
    #5545052 - 04/22/06 09:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OmEgAx1 said:
The more I think about it and the more I research it the more I am worried for the survival of the human race as it is. I think you all mis-interpret the extent Im saying free will has in our lives.




Accept it. Why should it really matter whether humanity survives or not?


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Re: Hmm... [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5545078 - 04/22/06 09:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

but letting go free will, joining acceptance, only really works in the real tao, that is the balanced nature. In modern western 'artificial' society, we need our free will to find that balance again.

There is nothing artificial about it. We are the Tao. It is just how it is.

They keep saying, things are born our of the ying, grow in the yang and then exist in the balance of ying and yang, the tao.

The womb of nothingness is yin as infinite potential. The yang is the result, or the shadow of the womb. Playing out infinite potential as the backside of yin. This is how I interpret that.

Everything is Tao. In a state of true acceptance there will be no mental movement, no striving towards anything. No achievement left. It is the burning of the self, giving up everything. Laying ones life in the hands of "faith". It is the Buddha under the tree offering his life in exchange for truth.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dorkus]
    #5545163 - 04/22/06 10:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
No, I did mean to say no preferences. I remember dosing up on microdots in my apartment some years back, with pen and paper. When I woke up the day after all my trip log said was no preferences

I have preferences, but the final aim would be the elimination of even those. Preferences indicates a worldview of subject-object. In Union (Yoga) the subject vanishes, and that is the total immersion in the flow of Tao. That is true acceptance. The self must die.

Allow me to quote Ken Keyes Jr from Handbook to Higher Consciousness where he writes about the seventh center and final stage of the trip:

"Because one has transcended all personal boundaries, and experiences no separation from anyone or anything in the world, serving "others" is the only thing to do in life. For there are no "others". Everything is experienced from an "us" space. [...] Achieving it usually requires a detached life style and a long period of intense consciousness growth practice. Even preferences must be eliminated to reach this Center."

:wink:




Excellent post!


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Hmm... [Re: dorkus]
    #5545353 - 04/22/06 10:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
[...]
Everything is Tao. In a state of true acceptance there will be no mental movement, no striving towards anything. No achievement left. It is the burning of the self, giving up everything. Laying ones life in the hands of "faith". It is the Buddha under the tree offering his life in exchange for truth.



Yes, thank you for explaining. I understand what you say and what you mean.
But it is hard to find a tree to give up everything, in Babylon, you know ? :wink:
Human vultures here will only spare other vultures ... one soon would be dead, I think.
I am quite convinced to need to be an active part in modeling/finding my surroundings away from an obviously unbalanced environment, to be able to live/feel/find balanced Tao.

Hmmm...but I reread your post and I see the similarities with 'accepting' bad things happen to oneself, like offering one others cheek. I am nor sure if I can accept obvious harmful things. I don't think so. And I don't see this as balanced Tao :wink:
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (04/22/06 10:58 PM)


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Hmm... [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5545607 - 04/22/06 11:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I am quite convinced to need to be an active part in modeling/finding my surroundings away from an obviously unbalanced environment, to be able to live/feel/find balanced Tao.

To shun one aspect of the Tao in favor of another according to your own preferences and desires is not in accord with the Way. The Tao does not favor one area over another. The Tao does not prefer the sun to the moon. Why should you?

Ram Dass puts it well on p. 33 of Be Here Now. He says: "You can't get away for the day because: it's in your head! That you're trying to get away from...and the only way to get away is to change your head! Simple as that! You want to change your environment? Change your head!! It's all the ecstatic moment! If you know how to dig it...if not...it's a travesty."


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Re: Hmm... [Re: dblaney]
    #5545650 - 04/23/06 12:02 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

That is exactly what I mean. I will put it to an extreme now. What if some guys want to explode the moon ?
What if some guys extinguish all further possibilities of life on our planet ?
If some humans want to shun one aspect of Tao in preference with their (unbalanced) existence ?

Is that the balanced Tao ? No. That is what I said, it should be action taken for to achieve (at least for one self, if one wants to experience balanced Tao).


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibledblaney
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Quietism [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5545677 - 04/23/06 12:15 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Aha! Okay, now I think I have a better understanding where you're coming from. You're saying that this sort of life view tends to lean towards quietism and acceptance of whatever happens, no matter how awful or devastating it is.

I would respond that it's a valid criticism for some schools of thought. However, most of the ones I take guidance from do not advocate standing idly by while the world is destroyed. Here's that quote from Kesey again:

Quote:

Because one has transcended all personal boundaries, and experiences no separation from anyone or anything in the world, serving "others" is the only thing to do in life. For there are no "others". Everything is experienced from an "us" space. [...] Achieving it usually requires a detached life style and a long period of intense consciousness growth practice. Even preferences must be eliminated to reach this Center.




However, so long as you view the issues as involving a right side and a wrong side, an 'us' and a 'them', you're viewing it through the lens of the ego, and that is a very biased and inaccurate filter.

Jesus also says it very succinctly:

Jesus said: You see the splinter in your brother's eye, but you do not see the log that is in your own eye. Remove the log from your own eye, and then you can clearly see to remove the splinter from your brother's eye.

I suppose I should heed his words as well, so I qualify this post by saying: I have not removed the log from my own eye yet, but I hope that you understand the message I'm trying to send, and that you accept it or reject it based on its own merit.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Re: Quietism [Re: dblaney]
    #5545750 - 04/23/06 12:39 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

But even if I removed the log from my eyes, there will remain those who will shun parts of the Tao...and as we need it to survive spiritual healthily, I can not stay actionless :wink:
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Quietism [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5545763 - 04/23/06 12:42 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Indeed, I'm not arguing with you there. I think wu-wei (or nonaction, not to be confused with inaction) is essential. But one has to remove the log from their own eye before they can help others remove their splinters.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Re: Quietism [Re: dblaney]
    #5545817 - 04/23/06 12:58 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

They might even want to crucify you. That would be a real test of acceptance. :wink:


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Re: Quietism [Re: dblaney]
    #5546898 - 04/23/06 11:19 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, agreed. Right action in Tao is only possible with removed log :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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