|
KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
|
Why are you an athiest?
#5531288 - 04/18/06 09:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Why are you an athiest? Theres alot of supporting evidence that god or some higher being is real, and there is an afterlife. But what evidence is there that he is not real and there is no afterlife? What logic is there behind athiesm?
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
|
barfightlard
tales of theinexpressible



Registered: 01/29/03 
Posts: 8,670
Loc: Canoodia
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
|
|
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: Why are you an athiest? Theres alot of supporting evidence that god or some higher being is real
I haven't seen any?
--------------------
"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks
|
KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: barfightlard]
#5531338 - 04/18/06 09:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
read bible codes. although we can only speculate who made it/why it is. it does prove there is a higher being (going with what the bible says in the text)
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
Edited by KidgardFromSRQ (04/18/06 09:43 PM)
|
DeathCompany
Oneironaut


Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 12,662
Loc: Somewhere in my head
Last seen: 9 months, 29 days
|
|
psh just casue you read something in a book makes it real?
--------------------
|
barfightlard
tales of theinexpressible



Registered: 01/29/03 
Posts: 8,670
Loc: Canoodia
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
|
|
Sorry, but the bible does not prove the existance of a higher power/god. It only speculates and gives symbolic "wisdom".
--------------------
"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks
|
BlimeyGrimey
Collector of Spores



Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 3,788
Loc: Puget Sound
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: barfightlard]
#5531518 - 04/18/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
seems to me that religious people go on one specific rule.... "the absence of evidence isnt the evidence of absence" its the same rule the Bush administration uses when it comes to the WMD's.
i'm an atheist because i've come to realize religion has done more bad than good.
i cant remember who said it, but this phrase sums it all up.
"Without religion, good people would do good things and evil people would do evil things, but for a good person to do evil things......well that takes religion"
i'd LOVE to see some evidence of god that is more believable than all the scientific data showing evolution and the fact that life spawned by pure chance.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
|
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: read bible codes. although we can only speculate who made it/why it is. it does prove there is a higher being (going with what the bible says in the text)
The only thing the Bible code proves is that some very interesting things happen when you apply mathematical codes to the Bible(and it turns out that similar phenomena occur when you apply it to Moby Dick, by Herman Melville). The only proof of God can come from within, and thus it cannot be objectively verified.
--------------------
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Silversoul]
#5531561 - 04/18/06 10:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Kabbalah is much more interesting than Bible Code.
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
|
Quote:
Theres alot of supporting evidence that god or some higher being is real, and there is an afterlife
Really?
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
|
Quote:
psilocyberin said: Kabbalah is much more interesting than Bible Code.
Agreed.
--------------------
|
RedNucleus
Causal Observer


Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 4,103
Loc: The Seahorse Valley
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
|
"Theres alot of supporting evidence that god or some higher being is real, and there is an afterlife."
In my opinion, there is not. That is why I do not suspect there is a God. Please, if u havent already, make a new thread in s and p to back up the existence of god with some evidence. i'll read it. From some mathemeticians' analysis of Bible Code: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/torah.html "We have performed many independent scientific tests of the Bible Codes claims. All of them failed to detect anything not easily explained by random chance."
Please move this thread to Philosophy and Spirituality. The quote and link I added break this forum's rules. However, in my opinion this thread requires any atheists to break the forum rules by giving reasons why they feel their way.
--------------------
Namaste
|
Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
|
|
I'm not. I have been presented no convincing evidence of the existence of any deities. The same reason that I am not a polytheist is the same reason that I am not a deist of any sort. Whether or not I believe in an unproven concept of a deity will not alter the material facts of my existence one bit. That being said, the actions of the religious in the name of their respective religions are perhaps the greatest arguments against following religions.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
|
RedNucleus
Causal Observer


Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 4,103
Loc: The Seahorse Valley
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Skeptikos]
#5532726 - 04/19/06 08:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Ok Shroomism rly move this to S&P.
Anyway I think the both of us have pretty much summed up the not-theist's point of view.
--------------------
Namaste
|
fresh313
journeyman


Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: barfightlard]
#5532997 - 04/19/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
cuz god told me 2
|
BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,733
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: fresh313]
#5533118 - 04/19/06 10:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
You can not prove that something does not exist. Asking me for proof that god does not exist is like asking me for proof there is not a invisible pink elephant flying around my house right now. You can prove that there IS a invisible pink elephant flying around my house but you cant prove there is not. Understand?
|
Shroomerious
OO


Registered: 07/27/03
Posts: 534
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: BuddahKillah]
#5533141 - 04/19/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I am not an atheist. That would be as narrow-minded as christianism. In simple words...I just don't know!!! That doesn't mean I am not continuously thinking about many possibilities...
--------------------
|
BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,733
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Shroomerious]
#5533164 - 04/19/06 10:55 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I am not an atheist. That would be as narrow-minded as christianism.
Why do you think that?
|
Shroomerious
OO


Registered: 07/27/03
Posts: 534
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: BuddahKillah]
#5533174 - 04/19/06 10:59 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Christians believe there definately is a god. Atheists believe there definately isn't a god.
Black or White
....our life is not
one can only have fun speculating.... with the ultimate goal to find out the truth ofcourse!
--------------------
|
BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,733
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Shroomerious]
#5533192 - 04/19/06 11:02 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Atheist's don't believe there is not a god . They lack a belief in god.
There is a difference if you think about it.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: BuddahKillah]
#5533196 - 04/19/06 11:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BuddahKillah said: Atheist's don't believe there is not a god . They lack a belief in god.
There is a difference if you think about it.
Depends on the kind of the atheism. Weak atheism is a lack of belief in God. Strong atheism is a belief in the non-existence of God.
--------------------
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Silversoul]
#5533260 - 04/19/06 11:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
there is no such thing as a lack of belief. Even nihlists have beliefs.
|
BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,733
|
|
Quote:
psilocyberin said: there is no such thing as a lack of belief. Even nihlists have beliefs.
Why do you say that... explain.
|
Psychoslut
The Mother Fucking Bear-o-dactyl

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 20,917
Loc: all up in ya
|
|
Dude you are in for it.
These people are going to try to convince you that being kind, caring and honest towards people is a death sentence for humanity and mankind.
Thats all they ever talk about really.
--------------------
[quote]KristiMidocean said: Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]
|
BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,733
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Psychoslut]
#5533289 - 04/19/06 11:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Psychoslut said: Dude you are in for it.
These people are going to try to convince you that being kind, caring and honest towards people is a death sentence for humanity and mankind.
Thats all they ever talk about really.
WTF???
|
KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Silversoul]
#5533292 - 04/19/06 11:28 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Paradigm said:
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: read bible codes. although we can only speculate who made it/why it is. it does prove there is a higher being (going with what the bible says in the text)
The only thing the Bible code proves is that some very interesting things happen when you apply mathematical codes to the Bible(and it turns out that similar phenomena occur when you apply it to Moby Dick, by Herman Melville). The only proof of God can come from within, and thus it cannot be objectively verified.
well, finding out every known major event to come and or has happened in the bible by applying a mathematical pattern to a book we consider so holy that invokes wisdom and is said every word to be true, definatly does prove that someone/or something did encode it with knowledge beyond man. what prophecy is there in moby dick? you can find in a mathematical pattern in most anything.
Quote:
i'm an atheist because i've come to realize religion has done more bad than good.
religion doesnt cause problem, people do. saying religion causes harm is like saying guns kill people. we all know people kill people. whether we misinterpret or misguide intentionally, its essentially mans fault. and besides, im not talking about one religion in specific, im talking about god. why do you not believe in a god or some higher being? why is there no spiritual after life? what proof do you have that there isnt?
Quote:
Kabbalah is much more interesting than Bible Code.
ive read the oracle of kabbalah and know the hebrew alphabet. have not read the zohar though. but kabbalah is all about reverberation and understanding creation. and whats kabbalah if everything is already known to happen? can some one pull up what that 18th century cabalist (i'm not 100% sure about the dates) said about everything every to happen or that has happened is in the torah. i believe it went something like that?
the problem with christians, jews, catholics, etc, is that they all try to define god when they know little about him from what they have gathered from the bible. just look at anything and think of how it got created? what created to create?
and from many accounts and even a few personal experiences/family experiences, there is definatly a spiritual world. if you can't see it, think beyond your anti-thesis being the thesis. i see the philosophy of athiesm as an anti-tphilosophy. its a theory that there is nothing other than a physical realm of exsistence. just because i cannot easily prove in words that there is a god, i can say that if the bible advocates god is real. and if everything in it is to be true (metaphorically or literally), and there is a mathematical equation behind the bible exposing history and what has happened, then that is my reason to believe there is a god. for me that is proof, but to those who dismiss that, i would like to hear your take.
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
Edited by KidgardFromSRQ (04/19/06 11:30 AM)
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: BuddahKillah]
#5533301 - 04/19/06 11:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BuddahKillah said:
Quote:
psilocyberin said: there is no such thing as a lack of belief. Even nihlists have beliefs.
Why do you say that... explain.
it is like distance, you cant have negative distance. Nihilists dont not have belief. It is that they believe in nothing. They believe that nothing has importance, weight, there is no morality etc.
See, either way, you have to have belief in something, even the big bang. When there is no definitive proof, all you can rely on for personal answers is belief.
|
BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,733
|
|
So you are saying that it is impossible to lack a belief in a certain thing... like god. What if you where locked in a room and no one ever told you about this thing called "god" would you believe that he does not exist... or would you simply lack belief in him?
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
|
Quote:
well, finding out every known major event to come and or has happened in the bible by applying a mathematical pattern to a book we consider so holy that invokes wisdom and is said every word to be true, definatly does prove that someone/or something did encode it with knowledge beyond man. what prophecy is there in moby dick? you can find in a mathematical pattern in most anything.
Well, I can't seem to find the exact prophecies found in Moby Dick, but here are some coded messages in the Bible that you probably didn't hear about:
--There is no Deliverance/Salavation-- --JESUS IS SATAN-- --Hate Jesus-- --Please drive out Jesus-- --She hastened to hate Jesus-- --Jesu(s) is not God-- --God is not YHWH-- --There is no YHWH-- --There is no God-- --Jehovah is a liar--occurs 8 times in the Torah --Jehovah is dead--occurs hundreds of times in the Torah. --There is no Jehovah--occurs dozens of times in the Torah --There is no God--occurs 5 times in the Torah. --God is dead-- --there is no truth-- --there is no evil-- --there is no good(ness)-- --there is no redemption-- --there is no Messiah-- --Satan is Jehovah -- --Satan is God ['Eloah]--
--------------------
|
KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: BuddahKillah]
#5533333 - 04/19/06 11:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BuddahKillah said: So you are saying that it is impossible to lack a belief in a certain thing... like god. What if you where locked in a room and no one ever told you about this thing called "god" would you believe that he does not exist... or would you simply lack belief in him?
well, thats a hard question to answer. im sure at one point or another you would question, why am i in this room? there must be a reason why im here? what is this wall, who made it, etc, etc, etc. that is unless you found contentness in staring at the floor all your life.
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
|
SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
|
|
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: BuddahKillah]
#5533345 - 04/19/06 11:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BuddahKillah said: So you are saying that it is impossible to lack a belief in a certain thing... like god. What if you where locked in a room and no one ever told you about this thing called "god" would you believe that he does not exist... or would you simply lack belief in him?
You would lack belief relative to a christian or an atheist, but if we are talking true isolation, then it wouldnt be a lack of belief, because there is nothing relative to be considered lacking.
|
BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,733
|
|
Quote:
psilocyberin said: but if we are talking true isolation, then it wouldn't be a lack of belief, because there is nothing relative to be considered lacking.
If it wouldn't be a lack of belief then what WOULD it be? No belief at all? I thought you said this was impossible?
|
KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Silversoul]
#5533371 - 04/19/06 11:50 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Paradigm said:
Quote:
well, finding out every known major event to come and or has happened in the bible by applying a mathematical pattern to a book we consider so holy that invokes wisdom and is said every word to be true, definatly does prove that someone/or something did encode it with knowledge beyond man. what prophecy is there in moby dick? you can find in a mathematical pattern in most anything.
Well, I can't seem to find the exact prophecies found in Moby Dick, but here are some coded messages in the Bible that you probably didn't hear about:
--There is no Deliverance/Salavation-- --JESUS IS SATAN-- --Hate Jesus-- --Please drive out Jesus-- --She hastened to hate Jesus-- --Jesu(s) is not God-- --God is not YHWH-- --There is no YHWH-- --There is no God-- --Jehovah is a liar--occurs 8 times in the Torah --Jehovah is dead--occurs hundreds of times in the Torah. --There is no Jehovah--occurs dozens of times in the Torah --There is no God--occurs 5 times in the Torah. --God is dead-- --there is no truth-- --there is no evil-- --there is no good(ness)-- --there is no redemption-- --there is no Messiah-- --Satan is Jehovah -- --Satan is God ['Eloah]--
if thats so, i'd like to see your references. --Satan is Jehovah -- --There is no Jehovah--occurs dozens of times in the Torah --God is dead-- --Satan is God --There is no God--occurs 5 times in the Torah.
there is NO god, but satan is god. show me the link or tell me the book you read that in.
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
|
SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: BuddahKillah]
#5533396 - 04/19/06 11:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BuddahKillah said:
Quote:
psilocyberin said: but if we are talking true isolation, then it wouldn't be a lack of belief, because there is nothing relative to be considered lacking.
If it wouldn't be a lack of belief then what WOULD it be? No belief at all? I thought you said this was impossible?
Your brain can lack oxygen, but only relative to what is considered normal, healthy amounts of oxygen. How can you lack something that you never at one point had?
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
|
--------------------
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Silversoul]
#5533404 - 04/19/06 12:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
BTW, even if the Bible code was 100% accurate prophecy, that still does not prove the existence of God. It just proves that you can use the Bible to tell the future.
--------------------
|
KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Silversoul]
#5533459 - 04/19/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
|
MellowMood
Dreamin Man
Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 185
Loc: in the vast
|
|
Im an athiest because I put a lot of sense and practical reason into my beliefs. If people need a religion to gain some source of spiritual saitsfaction...thats cool, this world is brutal and around every fucking corner there is deciet and since the day we were born we've all been manipulated and influenced by so many fucked up things...and if you find a little peace or even alot in religion and a belief in god...great...that belief serves a purpose and its helping.
Id just rather believe in things that are purposefull...I believe that eating well will influence my overall well being i believe that meditation, mind clearing, and breathing exercises will influence my overall well being. I even believe in karma based on very strong personal experiences...and this belief serves a good purpose...
so believe...with good purpose...i dont want to try to persude anyone just trying to get ya to understand why
good post skorp, Agnostic
-------------------- "Im a dreamin man yes thats my problem I cant tell when im not being real"
Edited by MellowMood (04/19/06 12:23 PM)
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
|
Yes, I'm aware that the Bible code shows some interesting prophecies. But how do you explain the rather blasphemous things I posted which are also found using the Bible code?
--------------------
|
Octavius
Stranger
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 159
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
|
|
An athiest sees that there is no reason to waste time pondering about something that you cannot see. When I use to smoke pot, I would ponder all day without doing anything, realizing my lazyness had to be changed. People who do believe in God and go to church, are only creating something in there minds that they want to be true. It's like there was a man who invented God and the bible because he saw how many people who follow him. So it has been done.
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
|
have to have belief in something
be?lief n. 1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever. 2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief. 3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.
Quote:
Belief in the traditional sense, or certitude, or dogma, amounts to the grandiose delusion, "My current model" -- or grid, or map, or reality-tunnel -- "contains the whole universe and will never need to be revised."
Abandon certainty and you abandon belief. I think it's possible to live life beyond skepticism, in total unbelief (uncertianty) of everything, not even accepting your own skeptic viewpoint as certian. Off the top of my head: Empiricism, the Scientific Method, and General Semantics all seem to be systems of thought which abolish 'belief' entirely.
|
KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Silversoul]
#5534385 - 04/19/06 05:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Paradigm said: Yes, I'm aware that the Bible code shows some interesting prophecies. But how do you explain the rather blasphemous things I posted which are also found using the Bible code?
see thats the thing, there definatly is a code. but for it to say satan is god, god is dead, there is no god, there is no truth, there is no jehovah, jehovah is satan- thats the greatest blasphemy. what you need to ask yourself is, if there is a true code behind the bible, then why would it contradict itself like that? i think something smells fishy.
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
|
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: see thats the thing, there definatly is a code. but for it to say satan is god, god is dead, there is no god, there is no truth, there is no jehovah, jehovah is satan- thats the greatest blasphemy. what you need to ask yourself is, if there is a true code behind the bible, then why would it contradict itself like that? i think something smells fishy.
I think you're the one that needs to ask that question. Why would the same code claim that there is no god and that Satan is god, if there were anything to it?
--------------------
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Silversoul]
#5534541 - 04/19/06 05:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The only proof of God can come from within, and thus it cannot be objectively verified.
That makes no sense and smacks of wishful thinking and accommodation.
Why in the world would God sorta-kinda expose himself to you in such a way as to absolutely guarantee doubt?
If he wants you to know him, he wouldn't use such a wishy-washy, non-committal form of exposure; and if he doesn't want you to know him, you wouldn't see so much as a hint.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5534552 - 04/19/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: well, finding out every known major event to come and or has happened in the bible by applying a mathematical pattern to a book we consider so holy that invokes wisdom and is said every word to be true
The Bible is just a book, man. 
Quote:
, definatly does prove that someone/or something did encode it with knowledge beyond man. what prophecy is there in moby dick?
Assassinations Foretold In Moby Dick
"Trotsky, executed, ice hammer, the steel head of the lance" is a good one. 
Quote:
you can find in a mathematical pattern in most anything.
Exactly.
Quote:
religion doesnt cause problem, people do. saying religion causes harm is like saying guns kill people. we all know people kill people.
Can a government cause problems? A religion is not an inanimate, physical object, my friend.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5534607 - 04/19/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
When God reveals Himself to a spirit, it is inner knowing and private confirmation for that particular person to treasure. Gnosis is a gift, and it transforms faith into personal knowledge of Real mysteries. It may not even be "revealed" so much as someone might have simply tuned into it, which is likely the case.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
|
That doesn't prove the Bible code is flawed, rather it supports the divine inspiration of Herman Melville! Mree mree mree mree  Thus spaketh Bartleby thine scrivener: "I prefer not to. Amen."
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
#5534625 - 04/19/06 06:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Basilides said: Gnosis is a gift, and it transforms faith into personal knowledge of Real mysteries. It may not even be "revealed" so much as someone might have simply tuned into it, which is likely the case.

The term "God" doesn't even need to apply to it, either. 
Personally, its all about awareness (or consciousness). Fitting terms that capture the essence of what is being explored/experienced/known without implying anything beyond that exploration/experience/state of knowing. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5534641 - 04/19/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: The only proof of God can come from within, and thus it cannot be objectively verified.
That makes no sense and smacks of wishful thinking and accommodation.
The fact that you cannot make sense of it does not mean it makes no sense.
--------------------
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Silversoul]
#5534730 - 04/19/06 06:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Apparently, believers can make no sense of it either as evidenced by the favorite phrase: "God works in mysterious ways".
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5534743 - 04/19/06 06:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Not all believers have gnosis.
--------------------
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5534752 - 04/19/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Who said that?
Simply because you're unable to experience something doesn't mean that others do not experience it.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
#5534842 - 04/19/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
well, this is obviously a very controversial debate. one thing the bible codes did predict is, atomic holocaust 2006. iran is definatly going to make nuclear bombs. and before this was discovered, none of this was known to be happening by the people who found the code. on top of that, the iranian prime minister said he is going to wipe israel off the face of the earth. america jumped in and said if they attack our ally, we'd jump in. and israel said if they fire one missile, there wont be enough bodies to pick up the dead. only time will tell if its true. if it does happen, and you dont find it compelling enough to believe, then what do you believe?
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
|
I'll believe it when I see it
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
#5534865 - 04/19/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Simply because you're unable to experience something doesn't mean that others do not experience it
I don't deny that people have experiences. I only question whether those experiences are imagined or real.
Since they always seem to occur during states of emotional arousal or while on mind-bending drugs but never while dead sober, in full possession of one's faculties, and in broad daylight, I find the experiences suspect.
Double that when you consider the fact that when trippers fully convinced they can fly jump off buildings, they always fall and die. Obviously, the belief that they could fly was in error. If instead of flying they arrive at some other arbitrary belief that can't so-easily be proved wrong as flying, they clutch it irrationally and usually never let go.
Also, that mystical experiences are usually closely aligned with the believer's cultural background should tell the critical thinker something.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
#5534867 - 04/19/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
you'll probably dead, if its a holocaust. the stage is being set.
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
|
Dr_Gonzo_25
Psychonaut


Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 27
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5534893 - 04/19/06 07:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
There is no evidence whatsoever that there is a god, the bible is no proof at all, it could just as easily be all false as it could be true. If a god and an afterlife could be proven without a doubt there would be no discussion about it.
I am an atheist is for a number of reasons, one I prefer logic over religion, science is real and explainable, religion not so much. I do not think religion would benefit me at all, if anything I think some people use it as a crutch. Some people think ignorance is bliss but I tend to disagree, there has been too much blood spilled over religious issues and I think we'd all be better off without it.
-------------------- All gods are homemade, and it is we who pull their strings, and so, give them the power to pull ours. -Aldous Huxley
|
wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Silversoul]
#5534903 - 04/19/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Depends on the kind of the atheism. Weak atheism is a lack of belief in God. Strong atheism is a belief in the non-existence of God.
i'd be a 'strong' athiest then. not only do i not believe in god, i believe that god does not exist.
by 'god' i mean a diety, mostly, a being as described in the abrahamic faiths.
|
wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
|
|
Theres alot of supporting evidence that god or some higher being is real
there's not a shred, and there's the answer to your question.
and there is an afterlife
i don't know what happens after death.
But what evidence is there that he is not real and there is no afterlife? What logic is there behind athiesm?
you cannot prove a negative.
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5534950 - 04/19/06 07:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The thing about the "experience" is that it's Universal. It's expressed along the same lines in every mystical flavor of every spiritual tradition.
I don't know what to tell you. I suppose you can assume that these experiences are imagined or even delusional. Personally I'd be a little curious why everyone profoundly testifies to the same experience of becoming lost in the Divine Identity.
Is it at all far fetched that Spirit does in fact exist, and that a metaphysical eye of the soul so to speak stumbles upon its underlaying Reality? Moreover with Spirit as a reality, is it far fetched that altered states of consciousness might reveal metaphysical realities?
Gnosis isn't some kind of extra-ordinary vision of an Angel speaking to someone. It is to realize that who we ARE is consciousness/spirit, and that we are sourced from the Ground of Consciousness itself. It is to experience ourselves Pneumatically, as Spirit, as opposed to eye of the body-mind. The self is completely non-existent in gnosis. The gnostic completely disappears and has no sense of self during gnosis, as all that is present is Divine Oneness.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
what evidence is there that he is not real
Let's say, hypothetically, ( there's that word again ) that God in fact really does not exist. This is a fact, hypothetically.
Can you give me an example of what you would accept as proof of that fact?
If you can't give me an example of something you would accept as proof of the hypothetical non-existence of God, then what does that say about your statement when there is nothing you would accept as proof even if it WERE true that he didn't exist?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
#5534974 - 04/19/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The thing about the "experience" is that it's Universal. It's expressed along the same lines in every mystical flavor of every spiritual tradition.
I see.
That must be why the Pope prays to God for peace and suicide bombers pray to God for maximum collateral damage. Alright...
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Dr_Gonzo_25
Psychonaut


Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 27
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
#5534985 - 04/19/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
To say, "Prove God exists" as opposed to "Prove he does not exist" are very different. Even theists use basic logic in thinking, generally everyone assumes things do not exist without some type of evidence of it. It is like saying prove that a unicorn does not exist, technically I cannot prove without a doubt that they do not exist but it is assumed they do not.
-------------------- All gods are homemade, and it is we who pull their strings, and so, give them the power to pull ours. -Aldous Huxley
|
chris92346
Stranger
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 436
Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5535031 - 04/19/06 07:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
First off... there is lots of evidence of existence of God/Afterlife. And virtually no evidence of lack of those things, however that would be expected because you can't prove a negative.
Second... why would somebody be an atheist simply because they don't like religion? Just because most religions you see don't appeal to you does not mean there is no God. Belief in religion and belief in God is two separate things.
When it comes down to it you can NOT use logic/reason to prove or disprove existence in God. It simply does not work. It is simply a matter of faith. I personally believe that it takes just as much faith to not believe. A simple explanation for taking faith to not believe.
Physics (I don't wanna talk about quantum physics right now) tells us that matter/ energy can not be created or destroyed. We look around us and see all kinda stuff. There is just two solutions. Either a higher power created it or it was always there. No granted it may in the distant past taken a much different form, Especially before the supposed big bang, but SOMETHING always had to exist. So... you are faced with two choices and only two choices. Either everything we can see always existed OR it was created. Either side takes faith.
Edited by chris92346 (04/19/06 07:36 PM)
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
#5535040 - 04/19/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
there is lots of evidence of existance of God/Afterlife
For example?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5535048 - 04/19/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Did you read Paradigm's post the other day on Mysticism and Fundamentalism? The later is undeveloped spirituality. No knowledge, just doctrine and dogma.
For every deluded Muslim that straps a bomb to his chest, there is a dervish under a tree nodding off in dhikr. Even Islam, with all its problems with literalism, has an ecstatic mystical flavor. One only needs to read the poetry of Jalaluddin Rumi for a taste of it.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
chris92346
Stranger
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 436
Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5535051 - 04/19/06 07:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I would perfer not to argue about specific evidence expessially since the whole point of the post was to point out that logic/reason is useless when it comes to this argument.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
#5535068 - 04/19/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I would perfer not to argue about specific evidence
Yeah, this is par for the cource around here. Make up some bullshit claim, then when someone askes you to back it up, refuse.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Dr_Gonzo_25
Psychonaut


Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 27
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
#5535071 - 04/19/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
chris92346 said: First off... there is lots of evidence of existence of God/Afterlife. And virtually no evidence of lack of those things, however that would be expected because you can't prove a negative.
Second... why would somebody be an atheist simply because they don't like religion? Just because most religions you see don't appeal to you does not mean there is no God. Belief in religion and belief in God is two separate things.
First off, please post some of this evidence of a higher being you have, we'd all be very intrigued to see some solid proof of it. I don't think there are many people who are atheists because they don't like religion, atheism is a lack of belief in a higher being or a strong belief that there is no god. A lot of people simply do not like religion for the fact of worshipping a god that they think is false.
-------------------- All gods are homemade, and it is we who pull their strings, and so, give them the power to pull ours. -Aldous Huxley
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
#5535079 - 04/19/06 07:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Mysticism and Fundamentalism? The later is undeveloped spirituality
Well, ask any fundie Muslim suicide-bomber-recruiting cleric, and he'll tell you the exact opposite.
I see no reason to give your version any more weight than his. From where I sit, both are made up nonsense backed by exactly the same quantity and quality of evidence.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
chris92346
Stranger
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 436
Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
#5535080 - 04/19/06 07:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
To not believe in God you must believe in a self existing universe. It is only reliant on its self for an eternal existance. Empericaly this makes no sense at all. We can point to no examples of this in the emperical world around us. So to bleive this takes faith. So basicaly you have two choices either you believe in an eternal self existing universe or you believe in God. Both points of view defy logic.
|
barfightlard
tales of theinexpressible



Registered: 01/29/03 
Posts: 8,670
Loc: Canoodia
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
|
|
Many more of Nostradamus's predictions have came true and many failed ones too. Why do you put so much faith in a book tha hasn't shown any?
--------------------
"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks
|
chris92346
Stranger
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 436
Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Dr_Gonzo_25]
#5535097 - 04/19/06 07:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
argg... this happens all the time when I try to make an argument... people totaly miss the thrust of the argument and wanna argue about side issues. What I said and I will try to say it clearer I think there is evidence of God BUT it is pointless. It dosn't matter if there is evidence or not. Evidence can not prove or disprove God.
|
chris92346
Stranger
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 436
Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
#5535108 - 04/19/06 07:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
We are trying to prove or disprove something that would be outside the physical realm of existance... if you want me to give you proof I would have to give you some physical proof. I can not prove something that is non physical by using something that is phsyical, it just dosn't work.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
#5535120 - 04/19/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
people totaly miss the thrust of the argument and wanna argue about side issues
SIDE ISSUES!? Evidence of God's existence is not a side issue. It is the crux of the entire discussion.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
chris92346
Stranger
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 436
Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5535131 - 04/19/06 07:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
When it comes to the existance of God there is NO evidence either way... but when it comes to an afterlife there is some. Let me do some looking, but... even if I could prove there is an after life that still dosnt' prove there is a God.
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5535146 - 04/19/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Well, that doesn't surprise me. Even the materialist take on religious myth is exoteric and literal, even if they do not ascribe to it or are ardently opposed to it. So no, it doesn't surprise me that one would group mystics and literalists together, despite that the two have little in common, and the former is despised as a heretic by the later. 
The line of dialogue isn't even similar. A fatwa-flinging cleric or Bible-thumping fundy will use doctrine and dogma to express their philosophical views (in other words, the experiences of others), while a mystic attempts to relate his own personal experiences as the sole inspiration of their philosophies. More over, they have nothing in common whatsoever! A mystic is meek and compassionate. A fundamentalist is ego-inflated and full of hate.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
Dimmy
Josephacetious


Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 903
Loc: Georgia
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5535186 - 04/19/06 08:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said:
Why in the world would God sorta-kinda expose himself to you in such a way as to absolutely guarantee doubt?
If he wants you to know him, he wouldn't use such a wishy-washy, non-committal form of exposure; and if he doesn't want you to know him, you wouldn't see so much as a hint.
a very simple responce to this would be, how would you know what god wants. Do you really think for a second you would be able to comprehend divine will? You believe you could rationalize something that is beyond rational and beyond any finite concepts?
As my rabbi pointed out to me once, you shouldn't be frustrated when you dont comprend some aspect of god but, instead be thankful that you can understand anything at all.
--------------------
|
chris92346
Stranger
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 436
Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5535193 - 04/19/06 08:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Okay I don't have time to find references for all this but here goes anyways,
There was a recent study done with channelers that would suggest that they have access to some kind of information beyond what chance would suggest that they know.
There was another study done with cardiac patients. Many of them have memories during times that they had no observable heart activity.
There is the case of EVP (electronic voice phenomenon) personally I think it is a weak argument for the afterlife.
We have the testimony of people that have near death experiences. While much of what they describe can be explain through physical means (note, they are *near* death experiences and not death experiences). Some of what these people talk about can not be explained well through physical means.
Also we have people that describe OBEs, while this isn't direct proof of anything, it would suggest that is possible for conciseness to exist outside of the body.
okay let me think of some more
Edited by chris92346 (04/19/06 08:18 PM)
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
#5535206 - 04/19/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
When it comes to the existance of God there is NO evidence either way
Same for the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And the Tooth Fairy for that matter, and Santa Clause.
And that's why I don't believe any of them are real.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (05/03/06 03:12 PM)
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Dimmy]
#5535221 - 04/19/06 08:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Do you really think for a second you would be able to comprehend divine will? You believe you could rationalize something that is beyond rational and beyond any finite concepts?
I see.
These things are beyond understanding, but you and your Rabbi somehow understand them enough to comment on them. Alright...
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
chris92346
Stranger
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 436
Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5535233 - 04/19/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: The only proof of God can come from within, and thus it cannot be objectively verified.
That makes no sense and smacks of wishful thinking and accommodation.
Why in the world would God sorta-kinda expose himself to you in such a way as to absolutely guarantee doubt?
If he wants you to know him, he wouldn't use such a wishy-washy, non-committal form of exposure; and if he doesn't want you to know him, you wouldn't see so much as a hint.
I also think there is a pretty simple counter to this argument... For some reason, it appears that, God highly values free choice. If God where to prove his existence we would be compelled to submit to him.
So from Gods perspective it seems that it is a greater good for us all to have free will and some not believe than it would be for us all to believe and not have free will.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
#5535241 - 04/19/06 08:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Okay I don't have time to find references for all this but here goes anyways
Yeah... more bullshit claims, followed by not a shred of supporting evidence.
And the Randi Million Dollar Prize awaits the first person to do one of your bullshit claims under proper observing conditions for 40 years so far and counting.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
#5535251 - 04/19/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
If God where to prove his existence we would be compelled to submit to him.
Then why does he expose himself to believers at all? Is he so incompetent that he doesn't want to be seen, yet believers see him all the time?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
chris92346
Stranger
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 436
Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5535317 - 04/19/06 08:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I think God reveals himself to all but just not in emperical ways... and you are asking for an emperical answer.
|
Dimmy
Josephacetious


Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 903
Loc: Georgia
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
#5535415 - 04/19/06 08:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Do you really think for a second you would be able to comprehend divine will? You believe you could rationalize something that is beyond rational and beyond any finite concepts?
I see.
These things are beyond understanding, but you and your Rabbi somehow understand them enough to comment on them. Alright...
wtf are you talking about? i was commenting how there are some things that we know we cannot know and, that was in responce to you trying to rationalize god's logic.
Whats crazier? me saying that there are some things we cannot understand about god. or you trying to pretend that you know what god would be thinking?
My point is this: Just as in infant cannot not understand einstien's theory of relativity, a finite human cannot understand the motives and will of an infinte trancendental force.
in addition chris92346 makes a good point. this world was created in such a way as to indentionaly mask godliness. Indeed if god revealed himelf out right, there would be no choice and no free will.
--------------------
|
KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Dr_Gonzo_25]
#5535509 - 04/19/06 09:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Dr_Gonzo_25 said: Some people think ignorance is bliss but I tend to disagree, there has been too much blood spilled over religious issues and I think we'd all be better off without it.
blood hasnt really been spilled because of religion, blood has been spilled because of man. islam, christianity, judaism all ultimatley preach the same thing: peace. man generally takes religion and many other philosphies then they twist and misuse them for personal gain. thats not what religion is about. thats what most religions are against.
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
|
RedNucleus
Causal Observer


Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 4,103
Loc: The Seahorse Valley
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
|
iran won't have nuclear weapons by 2006 because they don't make uranium fast enough.
You're just babbling.
--------------------
Namaste
|
RedNucleus
Causal Observer


Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 4,103
Loc: The Seahorse Valley
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
#5535667 - 04/19/06 09:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
"Personally I'd be a little curious why everyone profoundly testifies to the same experience of becoming lost in the Divine Identity"
all people have realistic dreams. some dreams convince people that they are reality. Some people even come to claim their dreams tell their fortune.
I have had religious experiences on drugs. I do not believe in God. They were dreams. The "everyone" you speak of is not everyone, but instead only consists of those who agree with you.
--------------------
Namaste
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: RedNucleus]
#5535681 - 04/19/06 09:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
"Dreams" don't quite describe experiences where one is Ultra-Conscious
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
RedNucleus
Causal Observer


Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 4,103
Loc: The Seahorse Valley
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
#5535754 - 04/19/06 10:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I visualize complex architecture, furnishings, faces, etc. while dreaming. I can't picture the faces of anyone I know while awake, or such architecture. Dreams give the impression of ultra-consciousness, but they are actually imagination. Your experience of a divine identity is a similar matter.
--------------------
Namaste
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: RedNucleus]
#5536056 - 04/19/06 11:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Exactly how do you know what is experienced? You are calling them "dreams" because you can't verify these experiences yourself. What "I" experienced is not even MY experience, rather the Ultimate Awareness-Reality of all things, which anyone is capable of tuning into, because Consciousness is ultimately One. It is a matter of awakening from a break in the chain of awareness. Not dreams (which are mentally constructed false realities), but awakening from an even greater construction of individual reality - into ONE reality.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
Shroomerious
OO


Registered: 07/27/03
Posts: 534
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
#5536208 - 04/20/06 12:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
"If God where to prove his existence we would be compelled to submit to him."
I wouldn't be compelled to submit to anyone and if he is all-knowing he'd understand why and let me be.
--------------------
|
KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: RedNucleus]
#5536350 - 04/20/06 02:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
RedNucleus said: iran won't have nuclear weapons by 2006 because they don't make uranium fast enough.
You're just babbling.
maybe they will, maybe they wont. if they announced they did, what would the rest of the world do? ask yourself that. from a broader perspective on bible codes; the ancient jews believe that every letter in the torah was a part of the code. maybe some things were left out when it said atomic holocaust 2006. maybe the god is satan and false god claims are not blasphemey, just misunderstood or incomplete truths. the mathematical sequence cold just be incomplete. so on my behalf it was kind of naive to go as far to say that bible codes is evidence of god, although it did say at one point "I am god". but for my intuition, which i've found to be right on every in deep felt situations, (where i can atleast understand the basics of what i am trying to understand); that is enough evidence to confirm it for me.
but i still do believe the majority of what ive learned from reading about it. but i hold one thing above approval or dismissal, every letter of the torah was believed by the ancient jews to be part of the code. so until we crack the code, we can only speculate with logic and ituition. i go by both, mainly intuition though. i guess to conclude what i wanted to say is that there is alot of evidence that there is a god or some higher being and a spiritual after life. the evidence is to listen to peoples encounters saying theyve seen ghosts of dead family members. on many seperate accounts there are claimed divine or spiritual sitings and happenings. is it super natural to see your dog a week after he died in the blink of an eye? I have had my personal experiences as im sure many of you have had yours. the personal phenomena you cannot explain. so many people have claimed similar things and even more mind boggling.
however, when it comes to the media, i dont believe many of the reports i read because i think alot of them area attempts to get attention or make money. so exclude those from what im saying unless you can show me a true enigma.
but hypothetically, if you could speak to every sane or intellectual person in the world how many people would say they do believe in a spiritual after life or god? how many people would claim they believe they had a spiritual experience or belief if you were talking to them as a friend? i am sure the numbers would greatly out number those who advocate there is no god or there is no after life. and the statistics in itself should be evidence to question your disbelief. but that is not enough always, because statistics are not always 100% right. none the less it should raise a question, and that question is the advocater of gods evidence. is god real? it is not that we can't find a logic to explain it? is it just that our perception in this day and age can only go so far, so we don't know what to ask? i believe that is the case.
but whether you like or not, where would we be if we did not have a bible? if we never had belief in god? no after life. we live and we die? that would be the casem, and to some still is. but that is unproven just assumed by logic of nothing else being the answer. but we know so little about anything and the only thing that truely guides us is our intuition. what would logic be if we had no question to ask? what makes us ask questions? it is not our "natural curioisty", our intuition does. curiosity is aroused. the definition of curiosity is "A desire to know or learn." What causes our desire? is it the same thing that makes us lust? knowing what makes us feel good, the experience? is it addiction? but what causes addiction? experience, right? so what would the experience be without desire? just another experience we would pass on or be subtle about if it were to happen to us, right? just something we percieve. why would we question the experience? because of our intuition for desire, that is why we ask questions and know what we know. but what is our intuition? i would define it as our 6th sense of blind perception. our opinion. opinion is the medium between ignorance and fact. but when debating a two sided issue with an answer unkown for sure, we can only go by statistics and speculation for sure. and statistics would point out a larger mass of people being spiritual. with good reason too. what makes us up is what we know, and what we know is what we have experienced here, in this realm of life. the physical world.
so perhaps we can't prove exsitence of god just yet. but remember, logic is a sytem of valid reasoning. and were trying to ask what is valid. so we can only rely on personal experience and/or statisticts to prove our logic. until we actually meet god, what we know about him is only speculation. but i still advocate there is a god. i feel ultimatley, our intuition is what fuels our souls dialectic reasoning, not our egos need to be in a nutshell.
idk, if this pretty high, so im a little bit scatter brained, but i know what im saying. i just need to revise it. happy 420 everyone
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
|
RedNucleus
Causal Observer


Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 4,103
Loc: The Seahorse Valley
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
|
No. There is an article on the front page of the April 12'th New York Times that describes the state of Iran's nuclear program. Iran does not even have enough enriched uranium to use nuclear power. Iran has 164 enrichment centrifuges and it would take years to make one weapon.
From an even broader perspective on bible codes, I posted a link above where mathemeticians analyzed them. That site is the reason I don't believe in that stuff.
In what universe does the fact that most people are religious mean I should be too? At one time, most people in Europe believed that the earth was the center of the solar system. Truth cannot be decided by popular vote!
--------------------
Namaste
Edited by RedNucleus (04/20/06 09:24 AM)
|
Dr_Gonzo_25
Psychonaut


Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 27
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
|
|
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: blood hasnt really been spilled because of religion, blood has been spilled because of man. islam, christianity, judaism all ultimatley preach the same thing: peace. man generally takes religion and many other philosphies then they twist and misuse them for personal gain. thats not what religion is about. thats what most religions are against.
Yes most religions are against that, but you still cannot deny the fact that a lot of blood has been spilled over religious issues, because were it not for these religions such a thing would not of happened in the first place. It is really just another way people find discrimination against others. Religion is for man, and it has been used in many bad ways regardless of whose actions it was.
-------------------- All gods are homemade, and it is we who pull their strings, and so, give them the power to pull ours. -Aldous Huxley
|
Octavius
Stranger
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 159
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
#5537021 - 04/20/06 10:14 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
What makes a man different? For God to choose to only show some people and not others. I have had a personal experience with jesus christ but to me this experience shows me nothing for it leaves me babeled. I was down at the beach with a friend when I couldn't keep up with my friend and my friend says what are you soul searching? And there it was jesus stood over me and I could see that he exists and that jesus was real for he came to me. But at others times I have been a demon that doesn't wish to believe in God. Nor do as God wishes. I was born and raised Christian, but why me. For aliens have come to me as well.
Jesus, God, Satan and Aliens all mixed together to leave me stunned with no meaning behind them whatsoever. Just plain out visions of things that leave me pondering all day to as what their meaning is...
Leaves me stunned. As I feel I have tapped into things before. I have also been stupified by them my thoughts are paralyzing me.
If you want to know more let me know, Octavius
PS: My first post still I'm an athiest, because this info I receieved has not led me to believe that I am agnostic.
|
RedNucleus
Causal Observer


Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 4,103
Loc: The Seahorse Valley
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Octavius]
#5537042 - 04/20/06 10:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
wow. I'm sorry this stuff happens to you. It must be hard holding together. I used to be a little crazy because I have a real high sensitivity to marijuana. I'm not making such a judgement about you! I'm just saying I know how it feels to be in such confusion as to what your mind is telling you.
--------------------
Namaste
|
Octavius
Stranger
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 159
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: RedNucleus]
#5537104 - 04/20/06 10:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Hey this is Droz by the way I changed my nick for sake of sanity and the likes of people not viewing me so differently.
I've had more visions, I had one during Easter where Jesus was crucified, a very disturbing image. All I can say is that these are simple and plain out open-eye hallucinations.
|
Octavius
Stranger
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 159
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Octavius]
#5537110 - 04/20/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
And yes it is deep deep utter confusion. I'm at the libraries computer for my comp is totally fucked. Otherwise i'd be in chat but this comp doesn't allow me to access it.
LOL, i signed up for 1 oclock but have been on it since 12. Nobody notices and no one has come to take my seat.
Anyway, Droz
Edited by Octavius (04/20/06 10:45 AM)
|
KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Dr_Gonzo_25]
#5538939 - 04/20/06 07:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Dr_Gonzo_25 said:
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: blood hasnt really been spilled because of religion, blood has been spilled because of man. islam, christianity, judaism all ultimatley preach the same thing: peace. man generally takes religion and many other philosphies then they twist and misuse them for personal gain. thats not what religion is about. thats what most religions are against.
Yes most religions are against that, but you still cannot deny the fact that a lot of blood has been spilled over religious issues, because were it not for these religions such a thing would not of happened in the first place. It is really just another way people find discrimination against others. Religion is for man, and it has been used in many bad ways regardless of whose actions it was.
not really, religion is full of wisdom that applies to life. with many things that are iffy, all it takes is one under educated public and a shitty leader to cause trouble. and thats just what happened through the middle ages and all through out history.
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
|
EmptySpace
Stranger
Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 69
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
|
|
I am a Roman Catholic turned Curious Philosopher. The point is that religion does not apply to life. It is a means by which people stop pursuing the unknown. Religion in essence is a way to to explain unexplained things at surface level, without looking deeper and allowing yourself to find the truly unexplainable miracles of life. It is when these deeper thoughts come out that members of religions start to get scared, as a result of an emotional reaction. Emotions are what cause bloodshed due to religion, and not the under educated public. This is not an angry refute, but a means to communicate ideas.
-------------------- We can't stop here - This is bat country. -Duke--Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
|
RedNucleus
Causal Observer


Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 4,103
Loc: The Seahorse Valley
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
|
"religion is full of wisdom that applies to life"
1 being gay is evil and dirty 2 sex before marriage is evil and dirty 3 choosing any other way than jesus christ is evil and damning (don't tell me it's not in there. it's in the "narrow way good/go up another way evil" story) 4 birth control is going against god's ability to choose when you have babies 5 abortion sends souls to god before they get a chance to live 6 stem cell research does the same 7 the environment and animals are gifts from god and abusing them is ok (ask GWB) 8 masturbation is evil, of all the ridiculous shit 9 nakedness in public is naughty, and the idea that it is ingrained in us to feel that way, which I was taught was truth (adam and eve) 10 be meek and humble. turn both cheeks to those who abuse you. greeeat.... come on in terrorists. bomb the fuck out of america. let me turn my cheek.
bottom line is that christianity is twisted and blind and full of fake wisdom that does not apply to anything.
I was actually taught in Confirmation class, quote, "blind faith" is a virtue we should strive for.
--------------------
Namaste
|
OmEgAx1
Stranger
Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 120
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: RedNucleus]
#5541021 - 04/21/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
If every completely psychopathic genius understand a higher power, while every athiest seems to be somehow mentally lacking, thats good enough for me
|
monamine
dork


Registered: 04/28/06
Posts: 1,089
Loc: Florida, US
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: OmEgAx1]
#5584555 - 05/03/06 05:32 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I am an agnostic because I think humans are not smart enough to fully grasp the concept of ultimate reality (or god or whatever you want to call it). Beyond faith, I think it's simply impossible for anyone to prove nor disprove the existence of god in any kind of objective fashion (I think the fact that most cosmologists are agnostics is proof of this).
You athiests can call me a fence riding pussy all you want for not making the leap, but I think you are stupid for being so sure of something you can't prove in any way.
Frankly, I don't know if there is a God and I don't care. That is all.
|
|