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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Dimmy]
    #5535221 - 04/19/06 08:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Do you really think for a second you would be able to comprehend divine will? You believe you could rationalize something that is beyond rational and beyond any finite concepts?

I see.

These things are beyond understanding, but you and your Rabbi somehow understand them enough to comment on them. Alright...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinechris92346
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Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 436
Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
    #5535233 - 04/19/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
The only proof of God can come from within, and thus it cannot be objectively verified.

That makes no sense and smacks of wishful thinking and accommodation.

Why in the world would God sorta-kinda expose himself to you in such a way as to absolutely guarantee doubt?

If he wants you to know him, he wouldn't use such a wishy-washy, non-committal form of exposure; and if he doesn't want you to know him, you wouldn't see so much as a hint.




I also think there is a pretty simple counter to this argument... For some reason, it appears that, God highly values free choice. If God where to prove his existence we would be compelled to submit to him.

So from Gods perspective it seems that it is a greater good for us all to have free will and some not believe than it would be for us all to believe and not have free will.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
    #5535241 - 04/19/06 08:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Okay I don't have time to find references for all this but here goes anyways

Yeah... more bullshit claims, followed by not a shred of supporting evidence.

And the Randi Million Dollar Prize awaits the first person to do one of your bullshit claims under proper observing conditions for 40 years so far and counting.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
    #5535251 - 04/19/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If God where to prove his existence we would be compelled to submit to him.

Then why does he expose himself to believers at all? Is he so incompetent that he doesn't want to be seen, yet believers see him all the time?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinechris92346
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Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 436
Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
    #5535317 - 04/19/06 08:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think God reveals himself to all but just not in emperical ways... and you are asking for an emperical answer.


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OfflineDimmy
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Registered: 08/18/04
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
    #5535415 - 04/19/06 08:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Do you really think for a second you would be able to comprehend divine will? You believe you could rationalize something that is beyond rational and beyond any finite concepts?

I see.

These things are beyond understanding, but you and your Rabbi somehow understand them enough to comment on them. Alright...




wtf are you talking about? i was commenting how there are some things that we know we cannot know and, that was in responce to you trying to rationalize god's logic.

Whats crazier? me saying that there are some things we cannot understand about god. or you trying to pretend that you know what god would be thinking?

My point is this: Just as in infant cannot not understand einstien's theory of relativity, a finite human cannot understand the motives and will of an infinte trancendental force.

in addition chris92346 makes a good point. this world was created in such a way as to indentionaly mask godliness. Indeed if god revealed himelf out right, there would be no choice and no free will.


--------------------
:goose:


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Dr_Gonzo_25]
    #5535509 - 04/19/06 09:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Dr_Gonzo_25 said:
Some people think ignorance is bliss but I tend to disagree, there has been too much blood spilled over religious issues and I think we'd all be better off without it.




blood hasnt really been spilled because of religion, blood has been spilled because of man. islam, christianity, judaism all ultimatley preach the same thing: peace. man generally takes religion and many other philosphies then they twist and misuse them for personal gain. thats not what religion is about. thats what most religions are against.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5535631 - 04/19/06 09:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

iran won't have nuclear weapons by 2006 because they don't make uranium fast enough.

You're just babbling.


--------------------
Namaste


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
    #5535667 - 04/19/06 09:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Personally I'd be a little curious why everyone profoundly testifies to the same experience of becoming lost in the Divine Identity"

all people have realistic dreams. some dreams convince people that they are reality. Some people even come to claim their dreams tell their fortune.

I have had religious experiences on drugs. I do not believe in God. They were dreams. The "everyone" you speak of is not everyone, but instead only consists of those who agree with you.


--------------------
Namaste


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5535681 - 04/19/06 09:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Dreams" don't quite describe experiences where one is Ultra-Conscious


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
    #5535754 - 04/19/06 10:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I visualize complex architecture, furnishings, faces, etc. while dreaming. I can't picture the faces of anyone I know while awake, or such architecture. Dreams give the impression of ultra-consciousness, but they are actually imagination. Your experience of a divine identity is a similar matter.


--------------------
Namaste


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5536056 - 04/19/06 11:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Exactly how do you know what is experienced? You are calling them "dreams" because you can't verify these experiences yourself. What "I" experienced is not even MY experience, rather the Ultimate Awareness-Reality of all things, which anyone is capable of tuning into, because Consciousness is ultimately One. It is a matter of awakening from a break in the chain of awareness. Not dreams (which are mentally constructed false realities), but awakening from an even greater construction of individual reality - into ONE reality.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
    #5536208 - 04/20/06 12:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"If God where to prove his existence we would be compelled to submit to him."

I wouldn't be compelled to submit to anyone and if he is all-knowing he'd understand why and let me be.


--------------------


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Registered: 05/30/05
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5536350 - 04/20/06 02:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RedNucleus said:
iran won't have nuclear weapons by 2006 because they don't make uranium fast enough.

You're just babbling.




maybe they will, maybe they wont. if they announced they did, what would the rest of the world do? ask yourself that. from a broader perspective on bible codes; the ancient jews believe that every letter in the torah was a part of the code. maybe some things were left out when it said atomic holocaust 2006. maybe the god is satan and false god claims are not blasphemey, just misunderstood or incomplete truths. the mathematical sequence cold just be incomplete. so on my behalf it was kind of naive to go as far to say that bible codes is evidence of god, although it did say at one point "I am god". but for my intuition, which i've found to be right on every in deep felt situations, (where i can atleast understand the basics of what i am trying to understand); that is enough evidence to confirm it for me.

but i still do believe the majority of what ive learned from reading about it. but i hold one thing above approval or dismissal, every letter of the torah was believed by the ancient jews to be part of the code. so until we crack the code, we can only speculate with logic and ituition. i go by both, mainly intuition though. i guess to conclude what i wanted to say is that there is alot of evidence that there is a god or some higher being and a spiritual after life. the evidence is to listen to peoples encounters saying theyve seen ghosts of dead family members. on many seperate accounts there are claimed divine or spiritual sitings and happenings. is it super natural to see your dog a week after he died in the blink of an eye? I have had my personal experiences as im sure many of you have had yours. the personal phenomena you cannot explain. so many people have claimed similar things and even more mind boggling.

however, when it comes to the media, i dont believe many of the reports i read because i think alot of them area attempts to get attention or make money. so exclude those from what im saying unless you can show me a true enigma.

but hypothetically, if you could speak to every sane or intellectual person in the world how many people would say they do believe in a spiritual after life or god? how many people would claim they believe they had a spiritual experience or belief if you were talking to them as a friend? i am sure the numbers would greatly out number those who advocate there is no god or there is no after life. and the statistics in itself should be evidence to question your disbelief. but that is not enough always, because statistics are not always 100% right. none the less it should raise a question, and that question is the advocater of gods evidence. is god real? it is not that we can't find a logic to explain it? is it just that our perception in this day and age can only go so far, so we don't know what to ask? i believe that is the case.

but whether you like or not, where would we be if we did not have a bible? if we never had belief in god? no after life. we live and we die? that would be the casem, and to some still is. but that is unproven just assumed by logic of nothing else being the answer. but we know so little about anything and the only thing that truely guides us is our intuition. what would logic be if we had no question to ask? what makes us ask questions? it is not our "natural curioisty", our intuition does. curiosity is aroused. the definition of curiosity is "A desire to know or learn." What causes our desire? is it the same thing that makes us lust? knowing what makes us feel good, the experience? is it addiction? but what causes addiction? experience, right? so what would the experience be without desire? just another experience we would pass on or be subtle about if it were to happen to us, right? just something we percieve. why would we question the experience? because of our intuition for desire, that is why we ask questions and know what we know. but what is our intuition? i would define it as our 6th sense of blind perception. our opinion. opinion is the medium between ignorance and fact. but when debating a two sided issue with an answer unkown for sure, we can only go by statistics and speculation for sure. and statistics would point out a larger mass of people being spiritual. with good reason too. what makes us up is what we know, and what we know is what we have experienced here, in this realm of life. the physical world.

so perhaps we can't prove exsitence of god just yet. but remember, logic is a sytem of valid reasoning. and were trying to ask what is valid. so we can only rely on personal experience and/or statisticts to prove our logic. until we actually meet god, what we know about him is only speculation. but i still advocate there is a god. i feel ultimatley, our intuition is what fuels our souls dialectic reasoning, not our egos need to be in a nutshell.

idk, if this pretty high, so im a little bit scatter brained, but i know what im saying. i just need to revise it. happy 420 everyone  :bigblunt:


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5536870 - 04/20/06 09:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No. There is an article on the front page of the April 12'th New York Times that describes the state of Iran's nuclear program. Iran does not even have enough enriched uranium to use nuclear power. Iran has 164 enrichment centrifuges and it would take years to make one weapon.

From an even broader perspective on bible codes, I posted a link above where mathemeticians analyzed them. That site is the reason I don't believe in that stuff.

In what universe does the fact that most people are religious mean I should be too? At one time, most people in Europe believed that the earth was the center of the solar system. Truth cannot be decided by popular vote!


--------------------
Namaste


Edited by RedNucleus (04/20/06 09:24 AM)


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OfflineDr_Gonzo_25
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5536919 - 04/20/06 09:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
blood hasnt really been spilled because of religion, blood has been spilled because of man. islam, christianity, judaism all ultimatley preach the same thing: peace. man generally takes religion and many other philosphies then they twist and misuse them for personal gain. thats not what religion is about. thats what most religions are against.




Yes most religions are against that, but you still cannot deny the fact that a lot of blood has been spilled over religious issues, because were it not for these religions such a thing would not of happened in the first place. It is really just another way people find discrimination against others. Religion is for man, and it has been used in many bad ways regardless of whose actions it was.


--------------------
All gods are homemade, and it is we who pull their strings, and so, give them the power to pull ours.

-Aldous Huxley


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OfflineOctavius
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
    #5537021 - 04/20/06 10:14 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What makes a man different? For God to choose to only show some people and not others. I have had a personal experience with jesus christ but to me this experience shows me nothing for it leaves me babeled. I was down at the beach with a friend when I couldn't keep up with my friend and my friend says what are you soul searching? And there it was jesus stood over me and I could see that he exists and that jesus was real for he came to me. But at others times I have been a demon that doesn't wish to believe in God. Nor do as God wishes. I was born and raised Christian, but why me. For aliens have come to me as well.

Jesus, God, Satan and Aliens all mixed together to leave me stunned with no meaning behind them whatsoever. Just plain out visions of things that leave me pondering all day to as what their meaning is...

Leaves me stunned. As I feel I have tapped into things before. I have also been stupified by them my thoughts are paralyzing me.

If you want to know more let me know,
Octavius

PS: My first post still I'm an athiest, because this info I receieved has not led me to believe that I am agnostic.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Octavius]
    #5537042 - 04/20/06 10:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

wow. I'm sorry this stuff happens to you. It must be hard holding together. I used to be a little crazy because I have a real high sensitivity to marijuana. I'm not making such a judgement about you! I'm just saying I know how it feels to be in such confusion as to what your mind is telling you.


--------------------
Namaste


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OfflineOctavius
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 159
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5537104 - 04/20/06 10:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hey this is Droz by the way I changed my nick for sake of sanity and the likes of people not viewing me so differently.

I've had more visions, I had one during Easter where Jesus was crucified, a very disturbing image. All I can say is that these are simple and plain out open-eye hallucinations.


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OfflineOctavius
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Registered: 03/22/06
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Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Octavius]
    #5537110 - 04/20/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

And yes it is deep deep utter confusion. I'm at the libraries computer for my comp is totally fucked. Otherwise i'd be in chat but this comp doesn't allow me to access it.

LOL, i signed up for 1 oclock but have been on it since 12. Nobody notices and no one has come to take my seat.

Anyway,
Droz


Edited by Octavius (04/20/06 10:45 AM)


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