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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5534963 - 04/19/06 07:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

what evidence is there that he is not real

Let's say, hypothetically, ( there's that word again :wink: ) that God in fact really does not exist. This is a fact, hypothetically.

Can you give me an example of what you would accept as proof of that fact?

If you can't give me an example of something you would accept as proof of the hypothetical non-existence of God, then what does that say about your statement when there is nothing you would accept as proof even if it WERE true that he didn't exist?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
    #5534974 - 04/19/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The thing about the "experience" is that it's Universal. It's expressed along the same lines in every mystical flavor of every spiritual tradition.

I see.

That must be why the Pope prays to God for peace and suicide bombers pray to God for maximum collateral damage. Alright...  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineDr_Gonzo_25
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Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 27
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
    #5534985 - 04/19/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

To say, "Prove God exists" as opposed to "Prove he does not exist" are very different. Even theists use basic logic in thinking, generally everyone assumes things do not exist without some type of evidence of it. It is like saying prove that a unicorn does not exist, technically I cannot prove without a doubt that they do not exist but it is assumed they do not.


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All gods are homemade, and it is we who pull their strings, and so, give them the power to pull ours.

-Aldous Huxley


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Offlinechris92346
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Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
    #5535031 - 04/19/06 07:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

First off... there is lots of evidence of existence of God/Afterlife. And virtually no evidence of lack of those things, however that would be expected because you can't prove a negative.

Second... why would somebody be an atheist simply because they don't like religion? Just because most religions you see don't appeal to you does not mean there is no God. Belief in religion and belief in God is two separate things.

When it comes down to it you can NOT use logic/reason to prove or disprove existence in God. It simply does not work. It is simply a matter of faith. I personally believe that it takes just as much faith to not believe. A simple explanation for taking faith to not believe.

Physics (I don't wanna talk about quantum physics right now) tells us that matter/ energy can not be created or destroyed. We look around us and see all kinda stuff. There is just two solutions. Either a higher power created it or it was always there. No granted it may in the distant past taken a much different form, Especially before the supposed big bang, but SOMETHING always had to exist. So... you are faced with two choices and only two choices. Either everything we can see always existed OR it was created. Either side takes faith.


Edited by chris92346 (04/19/06 07:36 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
    #5535040 - 04/19/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

there is lots of evidence of existance of God/Afterlife

For example?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineBasilides
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Posts: 7,059
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
    #5535048 - 04/19/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Did you read Paradigm's post the other day on Mysticism and Fundamentalism? The later is undeveloped spirituality. No knowledge, just doctrine and dogma.

For every deluded Muslim that straps a bomb to his chest, there is a dervish under a tree nodding off in dhikr. Even Islam, with all its problems with literalism, has an ecstatic mystical flavor. One only needs to read the poetry of Jalaluddin Rumi for a taste of it.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinechris92346
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Registered: 09/10/05
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
    #5535051 - 04/19/06 07:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I would perfer not to argue about specific evidence expessially since the whole point of the post was to point out that logic/reason is useless when it comes to this argument.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
    #5535068 - 04/19/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I would perfer not to argue about specific evidence

Yeah, this is par for the cource around here. Make up some bullshit claim, then when someone askes you to back it up, refuse.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineDr_Gonzo_25
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Registered: 04/09/06
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Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
    #5535071 - 04/19/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

chris92346 said:
First off... there is lots of evidence of existence of God/Afterlife. And virtually no evidence of lack of those things, however that would be expected because you can't prove a negative.

Second... why would somebody be an atheist simply because they don't like religion? Just because most religions you see don't appeal to you does not mean there is no God. Belief in religion and belief in God is two separate things.





First off, please post some of this evidence of a higher being you have, we'd all be very intrigued to see some solid proof of it. I don't think there are many people who are atheists because they don't like religion, atheism is a lack of belief in a higher being or a strong belief that there is no god. A lot of people simply do not like religion for the fact of worshipping a god that they think is false.


--------------------
All gods are homemade, and it is we who pull their strings, and so, give them the power to pull ours.

-Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Posts: 19,274
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Basilides]
    #5535079 - 04/19/06 07:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Mysticism and Fundamentalism? The later is undeveloped spirituality

Well, ask any fundie Muslim suicide-bomber-recruiting cleric, and he'll tell you the exact opposite.

I see no reason to give your version any more weight than his. From where I sit, both are made up nonsense backed by exactly the same quantity and quality of evidence.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinechris92346
Stranger
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 436
Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
    #5535080 - 04/19/06 07:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

To not believe in God you must believe in a self existing universe. It is only reliant on its self for an eternal existance. Empericaly this makes no sense at all. We can point to no examples of this in the emperical world around us. So to bleive this takes faith. So basicaly you have two choices either you believe in an eternal self existing universe or you believe in God. Both points of view defy logic.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5535084 - 04/19/06 07:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Many more of Nostradamus's predictions have came true and many failed ones too. Why do you put so much faith in a book tha hasn't shown any?


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Offlinechris92346
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Dr_Gonzo_25]
    #5535097 - 04/19/06 07:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

argg... this happens all the time when I try to make an argument... people totaly miss the thrust of the argument and wanna argue about side issues. What I said and I will try to say it clearer I think there is evidence of God BUT it is pointless. It dosn't matter if there is evidence or not. Evidence can not prove or disprove God.


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Offlinechris92346
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Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 436
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
    #5535108 - 04/19/06 07:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

We are trying to prove or disprove something that would be outside the physical realm of existance... if you want me to give you proof I would have to give you some physical proof. I can not prove something that is non physical by using something that is phsyical, it just dosn't work.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Posts: 19,274
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
    #5535120 - 04/19/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

people totaly miss the thrust of the argument and wanna argue about side issues

SIDE ISSUES!? Evidence of God's existence is not a side issue. It is the crux of the entire discussion.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinechris92346
Stranger
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 436
Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
    #5535131 - 04/19/06 07:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

When it comes to the existance of God there is NO evidence either way... but when it comes to an afterlife there is some. Let me do some looking, but... even if I could prove there is an after life that still dosnt' prove there is a God.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
    #5535146 - 04/19/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well, that doesn't surprise me. Even the materialist take on religious myth is exoteric and literal, even if they do not ascribe to it or are ardently opposed to it. So no, it doesn't surprise me that one would group mystics and literalists together, despite that the two have little in common, and the former is despised as a heretic by the later. :shrug:

The line of dialogue isn't even similar. A fatwa-flinging cleric or Bible-thumping fundy will use doctrine and dogma to express their philosophical views (in other words, the experiences of others), while a mystic attempts to relate his own personal experiences as the sole inspiration of their philosophies. More over, they have nothing in common whatsoever! A mystic is meek and compassionate. A fundamentalist is ego-inflated and full of hate.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineDimmy
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
    #5535186 - 04/19/06 08:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:

Why in the world would God sorta-kinda expose himself to you in such a way as to absolutely guarantee doubt?

If he wants you to know him, he wouldn't use such a wishy-washy, non-committal form of exposure; and if he doesn't want you to know him, you wouldn't see so much as a hint.





a very simple responce to this would be, how would you know what god wants. Do you really think for a second you would be able to comprehend divine will? You believe you could rationalize something that is beyond rational and beyond any finite concepts?

As my rabbi pointed out to me once, you shouldn't be frustrated when you dont comprend some aspect of god but, instead be thankful that you can understand anything at all.


--------------------
:goose:


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Offlinechris92346
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: Diploid]
    #5535193 - 04/19/06 08:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Okay I don't have time to find references for all this but here goes anyways,

There was a recent study done with channelers that would suggest that they have access to some kind of information beyond what chance would suggest that they know.

There was another study done with cardiac patients. Many of them have memories during times that they had no observable heart activity.

There is the case of EVP (electronic voice phenomenon) personally I think it is a weak argument for the afterlife.

We have the testimony of people that have near death experiences. While much of what they describe can be explain through physical means (note, they are *near* death experiences and not death experiences). Some of what these people talk about can not be explained well through physical means.

Also we have people that describe OBEs, while this isn't direct proof of anything, it would suggest that is possible for conciseness to exist outside of the body.

okay let me think of some more


Edited by chris92346 (04/19/06 08:18 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why are you an athiest? [Re: chris92346]
    #5535206 - 04/19/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

When it comes to the existance of God there is NO evidence either way

Same for the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And the Tooth Fairy for that matter, and Santa Clause.

And that's why I don't believe any of them are real.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (05/03/06 03:12 PM)


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