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Offlinestemmer
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For those interested in the more serious or scientific side of hallucinogens/ comments?
    #5530385 - 04/18/06 05:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I wanted to make a thread about this after someone asked me this question in some thread.
----------------------------------------------------------
seeing the ?DNA? pattern/blueprints of the earth was pretty amazing". ---well put.

Time dialation lead to the more incredible things I have experienced, but thats from a more scientific perspective, and what followed should not be discussed in short-hand form.

The answers to my many questions made me stop "coming back for more".


The question: What is IT that yuou cant talk about in short hand
----------------------------------------------------------------
The only thing about "IT" that can be taught is the physics/math behind it all. That can indeed help you avoid hitting a brick wall, and will allow you to make progress/believe......

What I cant talk about in short hand, is how to mold the experience into something stranger than fiction. To become a shaman without ever having any training, and to be able to confirm some of their most outrageous claims. To do these things with an uncontrived effort that allows you to understand things that are almost inhuman, and makes you feel as though you are certainly no longer in the drivers seat. To see god as being one and the same with nature. Like extracting god from religion and science.

To be able to understand how shamans knew about the double helix before any scientist. To allow self conscious neurology show you things/teach you things. Even to realize things that have no words to explain them, some of them being mental processes that are natural, almost magical, and do not arise from your fractal memory, but instead come from somewhere else within the brain.
To believe in synchronicity, and even use it in a way that some people might consider magic(either that or total bullcrap). To realize the synthesis of matter that creates time and to be able to work with it inside of your body aswell as outside the body.
To heal the body using the mind as medicine.

If I were to thoroughly explain any one part of this sort of list, I would have to explain the whole in order to thoroughly explain any small part.
Its the train of logic that is sacred, and it is vast and true. It will always be a secret untill you experience it yourself.

I actually dont feel like I have the right to regurgitate what these substances have gifted to me. To understand the whole it takes a bright mind, and alot of experience with higher doses.
The ideal drugs used to learn these things are lsd, lsa, mushrooms, and most importantly ayahuasca.

Apparently you need to know how to use these substances and a high dose, or many high doses wont necessarily take you there.
But what can be learned that is finite and unbelievable, you can even further confirm after your tripping is over and done with, if you look in the right places, even books about shamanism/physics/math etc etc....
Time dialation........... If you are recording on an old-school tape player/recorder and its running out of batteries, more and more information is put onto each small part of the tape untill it runs out of power. I always found this to be a good analogy for time dialation. It also reminds me of growing old, and even reminds me of what the death and rebirth experience is like with higher doses. All associations you can possibly make make become apparent, and you look at it as a whole rather than a few small parts. That by its self makes these drugs magical.

The cosmic shame is that some people have the wrong approach, and will likely never understand the religious/sacred/secret nature of these illusive teachers.
Kind of like how that guy down the street is not mentally handicapped, but that person might just be too simple to understand fully. Which is not a bad thing, simple people generally seem to be pretty damn happy and content, and can define their emotions and their life in a jiffy. SOme people have no reason to venture into these strange places. Hallucinogens if anything, are one way to atleast get your foot in the door, but there is more to it.

I know alot of this sounds pretty "out there". I just wanted to hear what you all thought about this weirder side of hallucinogens. The side of the fence that is not all fun and games, and would not be considered a simple escape from everyday reality. Instead its more like creating a new reality that stays with you for the rest of your life.


Edited by stemmer (04/18/06 05:49 PM)


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: For those interested in the more serious or scientific side of hallucinogens/ comments? [Re: stemmer]
    #5530498 - 04/18/06 06:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

stemmer said:
It will always be a secret untill you experience it yourself.





I think that about sums it up. I know where you're coming from though. Well I don't "know."


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: For those interested in the more serious or scientific side of hallucinogens/ comments? [Re: palmersc]
    #5530516 - 04/18/06 06:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think the key words would be time-dilation, synchronicity(inside or even outside of the body), and holism/holography.....

They all have factual confines within our seemingly simple nervous system.


Edited by stemmer (04/18/06 06:40 PM)


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: For those interested in the more serious or scientific side of hallucinogens/ comments? [Re: stemmer]
    #5530570 - 04/18/06 06:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

good post in another forum today:

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
"Here is the definition: -
    Mysticism is the art of union with Reality. The mystic is a person who has attained that union in greater or less degree; or who aims at and believes in such attainment.
        It is not expected that the inquirer will find great comfort in this sentence when first it meets his eye. The ultimate question, 'What is Reality?' - a question, perhaps, which never occurred to him before - is already forming in his mind; and he knows it will cause him infinite distress. Only a mystic can answer it: and he, in terms which other mystics alone will understand. Therefore, for the time being, the practical man may put it on one side....[W]e see that the distinction between the mystic and the non-mystic is not merely that between the rationalist and the dreamer, between intellect and intuition. The question which divides them is really this: What, out of the mass of material offered to it, shall consciousness seize upon - with what aspects of the universe shall it 'unite?'"

- Practical Mysticism by Evelyn Underhill, pp. 3-5, 1915

It is obvious that critics of mysticism, at least at this forum, have no experience which can be deemed mystical. Further, without such a radical intrusion into ordinary consciousness, there is no motivation to acquire knowledge 'about' mysticism either. This is one good reason why phenomena that constitute non-physical representations in consciousness (like psychic or Psi phenomena, televangelism, divination of various types and forms of magical practice) are all lumped together by those critics who are ignorant of the more accurate meanings of mysticism.

Underhill states that "mysticism is the art of union with Reality," and this is a something that happens at various levels, from the 'nature mystic' who may have a particular 'green thumb' and a 'way with animals' to the 'religious mystics' who oftentimes manifest excessive synchronistic phenomena to other observers. The Taoist mystic, for example, described by Sinologist Richard Wilhelm in some of C.G. Jung's works, http://www.ralphmag.org/BN/why.html, is a further development, somewhere on a continuum between the nature mystic and a religious mystic such as Neem Karoli Baba as described by Ram Dass in BE HERE NOW. Of course, there are copious writings of religious mystics in all the religious traditions of the world, from the ancient Hindu Upanishads to the Greek Plato to the Neoplatonists Plotinus, Philo of Alexandria (a contemporary of Jesus), and Dionysus the Areopagite - Pagan, Jewish and Christian, respectively.

It is the unfortunate plight of the rationalist, trapped in linear thought as it were, between two points - sort of like being a two dimensional creature living in Flatland, unable to comprehend a third dimension of up-down. For those unfamiliar with the book Flatland, the effect on a two dimensional being whose world is intruded upon by a third dimension human who inserts a fingertip in the two dimensional plane, is to see a point appear in thin air which broadens across his entire field of vision as a flesh-colored light. The two dimensional plane has been rent by a higher dimension and manifests in a unique phenomena. Thus the mystic, encountering a higher dimension in consciousness, can elicit the Intuition of successive, even Infinite dimensions which merge into a Oneness of consciousness. It is not an idea, it is not a fantasy, it is the Mystic Experience, and it is ineffable.

Those who have tasted the Absolute in some measure need have Compassion for the individual who is so uncompreheding that even the description of a model for approaching the Mystic Experience is lacking.  :confused: Pity is reserved for the individual who is so egocentric that [s]he denies the existence of a Reality simply because [s]he has not experienced it him/herself, and is so fearful or close-mindedly linear that there is not even a possibility of considering the Mystic Experience as a possibility.  :sad:




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Offlinestemmer
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Re: For those interested in the more serious or scientific side of hallucinogens/ comments? [Re: palmersc]
    #5530666 - 04/18/06 07:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"The question which divides them is really this: What, out of the mass of material offered to it, shall consciousness seize upon - with what aspects of the universe shall it 'unite?'"

Thanks for that post. It complimented what I was saying very much.


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Offlinecastaway
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Registered: 06/10/03
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Re: For those interested in the more serious or scientific side of hallucinogens/ comments? [Re: stemmer]
    #5530844 - 04/18/06 08:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

stemmer said:
I wanted to make a thread about this after someone asked me this question in some thread.
----------------------------------------------------------
seeing the ?DNA? pattern/blueprints of the earth was pretty amazing". ---well put.

Time dialation lead to the more incredible things I have experienced, but thats from a more scientific perspective, and what followed should not be discussed in short-hand form.

The answers to my many questions made me stop "coming back for more".


The question: What is IT that yuou cant talk about in short hand
----------------------------------------------------------------
The only thing about "IT" that can be taught is the physics/math behind it all. That can indeed help you avoid hitting a brick wall, and will allow you to make progress/believe......

What I cant talk about in short hand, is how to mold the experience into something stranger than fiction. To become a shaman without ever having any training, and to be able to confirm some of their most outrageous claims. To do these things with an uncontrived effort that allows you to understand things that are almost inhuman, and makes you feel as though you are certainly no longer in the drivers seat. To see god as being one and the same with nature. Like extracting god from religion and science.

To be able to understand how shamans knew about the double helix before any scientist. To allow self conscious neurology show you things/teach you things. Even to realize things that have no words to explain them, some of them being mental processes that are natural, almost magical, and do not arise from your fractal memory, but instead come from somewhere else within the brain.
To believe in synchronicity, and even use it in a way that some people might consider magic(either that or total bullcrap). To realize the synthesis of matter that creates time and to be able to work with it inside of your body aswell as outside the body.
To heal the body using the mind as medicine.

If I were to thoroughly explain any one part of this sort of list, I would have to explain the whole in order to thoroughly explain any small part.
Its the train of logic that is sacred, and it is vast and true. It will always be a secret untill you experience it yourself.

I actually dont feel like I have the right to regurgitate what these substances have gifted to me. To understand the whole it takes a bright mind, and alot of experience with higher doses.
The ideal drugs used to learn these things are lsd, lsa, mushrooms, and most importantly ayahuasca.

Apparently you need to know how to use these substances and a high dose, or many high doses wont necessarily take you there.
But what can be learned that is finite and unbelievable, you can even further confirm after your tripping is over and done with, if you look in the right places, even books about shamanism/physics/math etc etc....
Time dialation........... If you are recording on an old-school tape player/recorder and its running out of batteries, more and more information is put onto each small part of the tape untill it runs out of power. I always found this to be a good analogy for time dialation. It also reminds me of growing old, and even reminds me of what the death and rebirth experience is like with higher doses. All associations you can possibly make make become apparent, and you look at it as a whole rather than a few small parts. That by its self makes these drugs magical.

The cosmic shame is that some people have the wrong approach, and will likely never understand the religious/sacred/secret nature of these illusive teachers.
Kind of like how that guy down the street is not mentally handicapped, but that person might just be too simple to understand fully. Which is not a bad thing, simple people generally seem to be pretty damn happy and content, and can define their emotions and their life in a jiffy. SOme people have no reason to venture into these strange places. Hallucinogens if anything, are one way to atleast get your foot in the door, but there is more to it.

I know alot of this sounds pretty "out there". I just wanted to hear what you all thought about this weirder side of hallucinogens. The side of the fence that is not all fun and games, and would not be considered a simple escape from everyday reality. Instead its more like creating a new reality that stays with you for the rest of your life.




Nice post. I'm going to rate you 5 for it.


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InvisibleStickyWater
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Registered: 06/09/05
Posts: 1,680
Re: For those interested in the more serious or scientific side of hallucinogens/ comments? [Re: castaway]
    #5531175 - 04/18/06 09:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Not many people know this but I have a hidden (not hidden, but just not fully expressed) dessire to pack up, leave this country, and put myself under the guide of a shaman so I can also learn what they already know and perhaps become a shaman myself... (While I haven't read too far into shamans and the like, I at least realize that this is by no means an easy task, but it's something I'm actually pashionate about and psychedelics have taken on great meaning to me and have kind of found a special place in my life right from my first experience with shrooms)

Hmmm... now that I think about it can anyone recommend any good books for me to pick up? Particularily anything that will help me understand my experiences and just tripping in general? Something that I can actually apply during my trips. I'm not a very fast reader (well, I read fast, just not often) so try to keep the list short and make some effort to highlight the ones you'd recommend most if you could


Edited by StickyWater (04/18/06 09:22 PM)


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OfflineHerbus
...

Registered: 10/19/04
Posts: 1,477
Loc: Reading the map...
Last seen: 10 years, 23 days
Re: For those interested in the more serious or scientific side of hallucinogens/ comments? [Re: StickyWater]
    #5531476 - 04/18/06 10:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeap.


For me, it has been about being the "nexus" between the "Other" reality and the objective reality...

To temporarily turn off the biological filtration unit, and to become very receptive to the conceptions of an 'undefined' Universe.

Needless to say, I was tripping hard one day and my temperance found the state quite agreeable with my established goals...

I've got nothing but time... I hope.


--------------------
...


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