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OfflineRedNucleus
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Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted)
    #5529914 - 04/18/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

This quote is from some totally awesome sciences forum I joined today. My nick is Vicarious which is a nod to Tool's single being released today of course!

They were discussing what time is.

"It is a fact that human intelligence is totally isolated from the outside world in the sense that we don't know, a-priori, how any information we have is acquired. The only contact with reality exists via interactions, the real meaning of which simply cannot be known a-priori. Our mental image of the universe is constructed from data received through mechanisms (our senses) which are also part of that image. Any scientist in the world worth his salt should hold it as obvious that one could not possibly model the universe until after some information about that universe were obtained . The fundamental problem with this position is that we cannot possibly model our senses (the fundamental source of that information) until after we have modeled the universe.

Thus, the problem becomes one of constructing a rational model of a totally unknown universe given nothing but a totally undefined stream of data which has been transcribed by a totally undefined process. This is the problem which every human being has solved on an unconscious level by the time they are two. The question is, "is that solution valid?" It should be clear to you that, if you don't know how to solve it, you certainly have no way of analyzing the validity of your solution."

Yeah. So just think about that. You have no idea what reality is. Your senses could skew and defile reality so horrendously and you'll never know the truth about anything unless there is an afterlife.

http://forums.hypography.com/philosophy-science/3650-what-time-19.html
http://forums.hypography.com/

The forum link probably won't work because you're not logged. I also linked the homepage of the forum


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Namaste


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OfflineTheGus
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5530088 - 04/18/06 04:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

thats why we get fucked up here, the more time your senses spend in a confused state, the more sense they are able to make of the absolute insane amount of data (smell, tasts, sight, sound) that we put ourselves through each and every day


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"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5530143 - 04/18/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Indeed, one must assume that the reality that we interact with on a constant basis is in fact real, otherwise we cannot proceed in anything, anywhere. It is also true that our senses take in sensorial data, and it is entirely possible that they distort reality or only take in a limited picture. Our minds certainly act as a reducing valve and focus on only small fragments of the enormous amount of information we receive from moment to moment.

But, if we want to get anywhere, we must assume that what we experience is valid, unless there is some good reason to think otherwise. Then, and only then, may we become capable of perceiving and achieving a greater picture and understanding of reality.


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5530148 - 04/18/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

And to put what the author said more succinctly: our perception of reality is completely subjective. However, and this is the argument that objectivists use: since our subjective experiences are so amazingly similar almost to the point of being identical, we can conclude that there is an objective reality.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: dblaney]
    #5530164 - 04/18/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

People have an obsession with quotes here... I don't say that about this post, my point really is, do you need to se a quote from a scientific forum to accept something which has been said a million times here by other members? Anyway...

...whoever wrote the post is right but did not factored in something. I'll give an example. We can not see infrared light. But seing the effect it is causing on infrared sensible photo paper, makes us kind of see it. What I mean to say is that there are lots of different approaches to a problem and that I don't feel that there is a dead end. Never do.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5530171 - 04/18/06 04:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"and this is the argument that objectivists use: since our subjective experiences are so amazingly similar almost to the point of being identical, we can conclude that there is an objective reality. "

...and it is absolutely wrong. We can not conclude. We can only assume.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5530191 - 04/18/06 04:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

We can not conclude. We can only assume.

I see the distinction you're trying to make, and I agree, BUT when there is very strong evidence to support a claim, such as sensory experience, etc. supporting the claim that "I have a body", then it is reasonable to draw a conclusion based on the data. However, one should never accept a conclusion as an absolute, as new data could emerge and things are in a state of constant flux. In this way, I think it's reasonable to draw conclusions that you are also willing to revise should something suggest otherwise.

Beyond this, I think it's just a matter of semantics.


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5530525 - 04/18/06 06:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Just thought it was well put. I don't have to quote that from there, but there is where I found it.


Shroomerious, the thread I quoted was about our perception of time. The guy's statement was pretty short because time is a more mysterious idea than infrared or something. Also, I chopped some stuff out.

You have to admit, Our perception of time is totally a brain construct. A millisecond feels quick to a person, no matter what. 100 years will feel like a long time to anyone. Most people never get a subjective experience of this amount of time. There's no way to experience time in slow motion or fast motion. A brain cannot switch to experience different speeds of time.

What the hell is time in the first place?

yadda yadda. That's the basis of the thread. Hence the cool quote about being unable to trust one's senses.


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Namaste


Edited by RedNucleus (04/18/06 06:55 PM)


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: dblaney]
    #5532100 - 04/19/06 12:48 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yep, we agree.
Our life is one huge assumption...


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5532120 - 04/19/06 12:59 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
I didn't have the time to read all the replies so forgive me if I say something that has already been said.

You asked if it is possible to travel back in time.

Theoretically to do that you must go beyond the speed of light, but as you approach the speed of light, your mass gets bigger and bigger and when you are at the speed of light, theoretically, your mass should be infinite. Einstein proved that, with a little help from a mathematician because he was a bit crap in maths. But that can not be the only way. There are many dimensions that our mind, in its current state, can not perceive. If you didn't have the sense of height for example and you were surrounded by a new 5 meter wall moving continually as you moved you would think that you could never go back where you were before. This is what we think with time. Time passes and we can never go back, But that is judged by only the few dimensions that we perceive. If we were to perceive 10 more dimensions who knows? We could be loao(laughing our asses off) for not being able to understand it. Artificial Intelligence may take us there in the future.

Another thing that I think of is this. Pick a moment in present and its gone. Take a picture and it will only record a very very slight movement in time, so that which we see was not the present either. So if no presence exists means that there is only past and future and consequently we have no choice over matters and our future and past is predetermined. Or for example with the theory of the parallel universes, which all exist at one time but when we actually see something with our eyes, a flower for example, we force matter to make a choice of for example what color it is, or take Schrodinger's cat experiment. Matter makes the choice, not us. And this is predetermined. So generally I think that what the answer to many paradoxes could be, is increasd perception.

Conclusion------------>WE NEED TO PERCEIVE MORE DIMENSIONS!!!! :shrug:

:kodama: :kodama: :kodama: <------------------->This is what we are.




This is a past post of mine. See if you agree or think it's crap.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5532811 - 04/19/06 08:50 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Take a picture and it will only record a very very slight movement in time, so that which we see was not the present either. So if no presence exists..."

This is just like saying "Take a measurement of where the point one inch away from the wall is. With your tape measure, you cannot measure one point. You will really be measuring a range of a few hundred micrometers near that point. Therefore, that which you see is not one inch. So if no inch exists...."

Not solid logic IMO.


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Namaste


Edited by RedNucleus (04/19/06 09:24 AM)


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5532934 - 04/19/06 09:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hmmm...not exactly... An inch represents a way of measuring length and as it is a human mind produced concept, it is bound to be extremely subjective. The fact that "infinity" applies to both of these occasions is what is common, but time,I think, is something which........no. You are absolutely right. And all that time I thought I was right...I never thought of it that way. Because time as we know it is a human interpretation right? So again it is bound to be subjective and assumed objective under standard conditions.

Yes...you are definately right. My thinking was inside the box. Wrong. But setting that aside, look at this concept of infinity,,,it is our most important problem I think..it could be solved by understanding more dimensions though.

Nice. Cheers for that mate! :thumbup:


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5532956 - 04/19/06 09:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You're a fine thinker. I really didn't mean to sound condescending at all, but I did. Sorry


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Namaste


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5533050 - 04/19/06 10:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If I said "no worries" a gazilion times it wouldn't show how much I mean it.

Really now, no worries mate!! :thumbup:


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OfflineZenith
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5533353 - 04/19/06 11:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Representationalism


Its always interesting to find something that you have been wondering and find out that someone else have been wondering it bit more.

I think its just this kind information that makes people mad.


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I?m not very sure where does the rug start and I end.


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InvisibleDarkcloud
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5533405 - 04/19/06 12:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Another somewhat related philosophy:
Quote:

Mereological nihilism: (also called compositional nihilism, or what some philosophers just call nihilism) is the position that objects with parts do not exist (not only objects in space, but also objects existing in time do not have any temporal parts, and thus only exist in the present moment), and only basic building blocks without parts exist (e.g., electrons, quarks), and thus the world we see and experience full of objects with parts is a product of human misperception (if we could see clearly, we'd not see compositive objects).




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mereological_Nihilism


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:poison: :poison: :poison:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5534052 - 04/19/06 03:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah. So just think about that. You have no idea what reality is. Your senses could skew and defile reality so horrendously and you'll never know the truth about anything unless there is an afterlife.

Luckily, I've defined "reality" as my apparent interaction with existence, thusforthly sidestepping this entirely problem. :grin: "What is REALLY going on" seems like mere speculation and doesn't concern me.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5534335 - 04/19/06 05:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I like this problem
and I reccommend starting at both ends and hanging loose in the middle.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: Zenith]
    #5535689 - 04/19/06 09:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i'm a little confused. are you thinking i'd be mad about this idea of representationalism? I don't get it


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Awesome observation on the limitations of human understanding (Quoted) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5535703 - 04/19/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

lol. I love this question. It's just like when I was a kid and I wondered what heaven was like. There's no way to know!


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Namaste


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