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SneezingPenis
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The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy
#5524144 - 04/17/06 10:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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You have seen the discussions, and certain people who indirectly claim superior "openness" and "understanding" by defending their POV with the phrase "Well, sorry you aren't open-minded enough to comprehend it".
Not only is this a weak argument, but it is a statement which negates itself and shows the hypocritical ignorance and self-absorption of anyone who uses it.
Obviously, you are having a discussion between two points of view if you need to revert to the "open-mind" defense. If you are negating anothers POV with the mere assumption that they just arent liberal enough to cope with your mountain of hipness, you are the one who is close-minded.
I see this all too often, especially in musicians, who I work with all the time. The catalyst for this cognition was a detroit suckjob named Sister Otis who was a cross between a trustafarian and a wigger. She was going on and on and on (and on) about the hippy PLUR rhetoric, going on about how everyone needs to be open-minded..... she especially kept harping on that issue of open-mindedness and then started talking about ending the war on drugs, marching on the white house and other hippy shit. I dont like GWB, nor do I like the war on drugs, but how can you claim to be open-minded when you are attacking anothers viewpoint based solely on your POV?
seems to me the ones who claim to be so "open" are usually the self-absorbed, close minded people.
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mr_kite
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5524164 - 04/17/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said: If you are negating anothers POV with the mere assumption that they just arent liberal enough to cope with your mountain of hipness, you are the one who is close-minded.
If you are open-minded then you wouldn't "negate" anyone's point of view, unless it was factually inacurate. That's what being truly open-minded means, you accept that other people's opinions are just as valid as your own.
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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SneezingPenis
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: mr_kite]
#5524180 - 04/17/06 10:35 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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sure, in theory, but that is never the case. Even if you acted that role during a discussion regarding opposing views, at the end you still mutter to yourself what a retarded douchebag the other guy was, and call or talk to the next person about how amazingly stupid his arguments and POV was.
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mr_kite
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5524203 - 04/17/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well if you do that then you're not open minded. Has someone pissed you off? ;-)
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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SneezingPenis
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: mr_kite]
#5524266 - 04/17/06 10:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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oh, Im always pissed off when it comes to things like this. I dont know why it bothers me so much, but it does. Im sure at times I am even guilty of such, but atleast I am aware of my possibility of being unaware of it, which mostly keeps my hypocritical blather to a minimum.
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blaze2
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5524421 - 04/17/06 11:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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sure, in theory, but that is never the case. Even if you acted that role during a discussion regarding opposing views, at the end you still mutter to yourself what a retarded douchebag the other guy was, and call or talk to the next person about how amazingly stupid his arguments and POV was. [/qoute]
I assure you that it can be the case man. Everyone has their bad days of course but there are poeple who go through life being honest and open minded all day long everyday.
THe reason you see people who use the defence "hes not open-minded enough" is because believe it or not most poeple arent open minded at all. Its not a crutch its the fucking truth. You just made a post saying the same thing, and you call it flawed logic. You cant have it both ways man. Peace
blaze2
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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SneezingPenis
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: blaze2]
#5524487 - 04/17/06 11:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I never claimed to be "open-minded". lol
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CHyRO
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5525797 - 04/17/06 04:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I know what you mean the pot calling the kettle black. But I think I do the same as everyone when I am pissed off about something I usually run down a particular group of people that I dislike and often point out there short comings which are often attributes in myself that I don't like. ie. the trouble with X people is they are just not as good as me etc. etc.
So all in all it's just a spleen vent by someone who wants someone else to agree with them to make themselves feel better or alternatively have an argument with to make themselves feel better. If I am feeling good and am aware of what I am saying I try to take the piss out of myself. After all most statements of opinion bare no relation to accuracy and are usually riddled with hypocrisy.
Phew I feel better already having vented that bit... now someone can come along and pick holes in my discussion so they can feel better, or wind me up or something then we can really kick off.... funny thing life. Bring on the custard pies that's what I say.
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fireworks_god
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: mr_kite]
#5525933 - 04/17/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mr_kite said: If you are open-minded then you wouldn't "negate" anyone's point of view, unless it was factually inacurate. That's what being truly open-minded means, you accept that other people's opinions are just as valid as your own.
Being receptive to new and different ideas and opinions does not equate into accepting that all ideas and opinions are equally valid. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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mr_kite
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: fireworks_god]
#5525960 - 04/17/06 05:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Never said it did. Where did that come from?
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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fireworks_god
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: mr_kite]
#5525968 - 04/17/06 05:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mr_kite said: That's what being truly open-minded means, you accept that other people's opinions are just as valid as your own.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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SneezingPenis
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: fireworks_god]
#5525974 - 04/17/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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i guess what I am trying to say is that given my idea of the definition of "open-minded" : giving as much weight and personal assesment of point/argument X as your current held belief regarding X....
I dont think anyone can honestly do this. Your beliefs are your beliefs because you have deliberated (most likely) on the subject for many hours and even investigated opinions for and against this topic you find to be true or correct, and while you can unbiasedly take another POV into consideration, it seems near impossible to truly give it the same consideration as your currently held beliefs.
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fireworks_god
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5526011 - 04/17/06 05:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said: I dont think anyone can honestly do this. Your beliefs are your beliefs because you have deliberated (most likely) on the subject for many hours and even investigated opinions for and against this topic you find to be true or correct, and while you can unbiasedly take another POV into consideration, it seems near impossible to truly give it the same consideration as your currently held beliefs.
Certainly.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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mr_kite
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: mr_kite]
#5526035 - 04/17/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah but I never equated anything to anything.
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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fireworks_god
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: mr_kite]
#5526075 - 04/17/06 05:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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You state that being open-minded means that one accepts that all opinions are as valid as one's own.
I stated that open-minded means being receptive to new and different ideas, but that it does not mean that one accepts that all opinions are as valid as one's own.
To define a term as something is to equate the term with something, which is exactly what you did. "being open-minded means that one accepts all opinions as equal to one's own".
Eh?
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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SneezingPenis
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: mr_kite]
#5526086 - 04/17/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Technicality foul! 10 yard penalty! Number 36 hiding behind semantics when inference was obvious.
Penalty Declined. Repeat/rephrase first statement.
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fireworks_god
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5526100 - 04/17/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think it is obvious that we do need refeerees ( ) here. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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SneezingPenis
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: fireworks_god]
#5526118 - 04/17/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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yes, this forum needs an official debate refeeree (was the pun intended?).
"Can I get a ruling on this tactic?"
i wonder if we can swing that..... vote and give someone that position.
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mr_kite
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: fireworks_god]
#5526135 - 04/17/06 06:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: You state that being open-minded means that one accepts that all opinions are as valid as one's own.
I stated that open-minded means being receptive to new and different ideas, but that it does not mean that one accepts that all opinions are as valid as one's own.
To define a term as something is to equate the term with something, which is exactly what you did. "being open-minded means that one accepts all opinions as equal to one's own".
Eh?
 Peace.
OK, well I said that being truly open minded means that one accepts that all opinions are as valid as one's own (opinions on unprovable subjects), as opposed to merely being receptive to new and different ideas.
ie if you are open minded then you're not just receptive, you actually never think you are more correct than other people if you have no proof.
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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fireworks_god
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: mr_kite]
#5526160 - 04/17/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mr_kite said: OK, well I said that being truly open minded means that one accepts that all opinions are as valid as one's own (opinions on unprovable subjects), as opposed to merely being receptive to new and different ideas.
Opinions on subjects that cannot be presently confirmed, denied, or investigated into are meaningless.
Quote:
ie if you are open minded then you're not just receptive, you actually never think you are more correct than other people if you have no proof.
First and foremost, your definition of open-minded is not the common definition of the term. Secondly, I was refering to ideas and opinions within the realm of proof. 
If I am of the opinion that my dog is the grand wizard of an Interstellar Union of Suns, but I have absolutely nothing to take into consideration that pertains to the opinion, then of what worth is the opinion?
I would state that such is equally unvalid. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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mr_kite
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: fireworks_god]
#5526197 - 04/17/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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its a bit pointless to reduce the argument to something that asurd. id just like to say, you have to give people who have faith the respect they're due. even though they have no proof, their faith in it means something. obviously not faith that their dog is a sun deity, but for example faith in the resurrection. its both insulting and mistaken to say that their belief is meaninless; the mere fact that they have faith makes it incredibly meaninful to them. Not to you maybe, you have no such faith in anything, but that doesnt mean you can say their belief is meaningless.their faith makes their life meaninful and i guess thats great for them.
anyways my girlfriends here so im gonna have to pay her some attention.
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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fireworks_god
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: mr_kite]
#5526233 - 04/17/06 06:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mr_kite said: id just like to say, you have to give people who have faith the respect they're due. even though they have no proof, their faith in it means something.
It means that, for whatever reason, they have been brought to adopt a delusion and to fervently hold onto it. The simple fact that they hold faith in such a belief does not mean that the belief is justified, or that having faith in such a belief is to be accepted.
Quote:
obviously not faith that their dog is a sun deity, but for example faith in the resurrection.
What is the difference? Both have the same amount of evidence to support the belief, and the only possible difference is the meaning that the one who holds the belief grants it, right?
Quote:
its both insulting and mistaken to say that their belief is meaninless; the mere fact that they have faith makes it incredibly meaninful to them.
Yes, it is true that existance is empty of inherent meaning, and that it is us who create meaning for ourselves. The fact that someone blindly holds faith in something might make it meaningful to them, but it does not mean that the belief is of any relevance to reality or their experience. It is, in effect, delusion.
Delusion is never beneficial, in any way, shape, or form.
Quote:
their faith makes their life meaninful and i guess thats great for them.
I don't think it is great for them that they have to derive meaning through meaningless bullshit when the simple fact that they are a living, human being who is having an experience is enough. Any kind of belief that seperates oneself from the fact that we need not rely on any bullshit to have meaning is harmful to oneself and one's wellbeing.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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David_Scape
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: fireworks_god]
#5526298 - 04/17/06 06:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Opinion ceases to be opinion when a person gives reasoning to back it up. It becomes an argument at that point. "I like blue" is an opinion, "I like blue, because..." is an argument (albeit a poor one), and if someone takes up a contradictory position, then one of you are wrong, or both of you are.
Just thought that should be stated in this already interesting thread.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: David_Scape]
#5526329 - 04/17/06 06:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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good point. You get a gold star.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5526334 - 04/17/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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from the city of sausalito.....
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blaze2
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5526403 - 04/17/06 07:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Yes, it is true that existance is empty of inherent meaning, and that it is us who create meaning for ourselves. The fact that someone blindly holds faith in something might make it meaningful to them, but it does not mean that the belief is of any relevance to reality or their experience. It is, in effect, delusion.
Delusion is never beneficial, in any way, shape, or form. "
And what in your opinion is of any relevance to reality?
as far as their experiance id say it can be very relevent to many many people, otherwise we wouldnt even be talking about it at all right now. The fact that we are is proof of is relevence. Peace
blaze2
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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SneezingPenis
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: blaze2]
#5526425 - 04/17/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Descartes would disagree.
If by the same logic that we are is proof enough to validate our experiences then it would validate pure existentialism, which therefor invalidates personal experience.
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PhanTomCat
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: David_Scape]
#5527041 - 04/17/06 09:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
David_Scape said: Opinion ceases to be opinion when a person gives reasoning to back it up. It becomes an argument at that point. "I like blue" is an opinion, "I like blue, because..." is an argument (albeit a poor one), and if someone takes up a contradictory position, then one of you are wrong, or both of you are.
How is stating a personal preference and the reasons for it, considered an argument....? 
If I say "I like blue because blah blah blah", and you say "you like green because blah blah blah", nobody is wrong, and it is what **I** would consider a discussion.... ---Or a simple sharing of personal preferences.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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David_Scape
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: PhanTomCat]
#5527269 - 04/17/06 10:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It was a horrible example of an argument. Anybody trying to take up a contradictory position on another's personal preferences is a prick, and would annoy me. It's definately not a mature discussion as far as I'm concerned, either. But, technically, as long as you've stated your position beyond an emotional reaction, you've stated an argument. That's all I was trying to say.
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CHyRO
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: David_Scape]
#5528704 - 04/18/06 09:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well it's about how really open minded you really are and weather there is a true distinction between absurdity and seriousness. If both parties to a discussion intuitively agree that the object of discussion is a serious point then all well and good after a period of consolidation of individual POV, some degree of "widening of scope" might very well ensue. However to an outside observer each POV may hold no weight what so ever as any degree of seriousness at all and in fact the very discussion it's self may seem absurd from that outside observer. How would you judge the consensus of weather the discussion is serious or absurd, possibly by taking a vote in which case it might be two to one in favor of seriousness, but by that point the minority group member may then be able to swing the vote by further discussion in pointing out the fact that the discussion has now indeed entered the realms of absurdity by the very fact that a vote was taken. An so the debate could continue and at length with the group widening it's scope and increasing it's number, until such point that elections would need to be held for serious vs non serious parliamentary candidates.
At this point in the discourse I urge you to click on the following link for some light relief before returning to the analysis of the debate at hand.
http://www.yeeguy.com/freefall/georgerag.swf
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RedNucleus
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5529942 - 04/18/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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yo. first of all. you need to open your mind to see that you are under the control of Satan. Then, you need to accept Jesus Christ into your heart, so that the sacred heart of Jesus will open your heart.
--------------------
Namaste
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CHyRO
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: RedNucleus]
#5536486 - 04/20/06 03:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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LMAO Like the avitar
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Ettin
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: RedNucleus]
#5538201 - 04/20/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
RedNucleus said: yo. first of all. you need to open your mind to see that you are under the control of Satan. Then, you need to accept Jesus Christ into your heart, so that the sacred heart of Jesus will open your heart.
lol, thats the funniest thing ive heard in quite a while.
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EmptySpace
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: RedNucleus]
#5539167 - 04/20/06 09:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I love it how people insist that opening one's mind means that you have found Jesus Christ. That is just typical narrow-mindedness at its finest.
-------------------- We can't stop here - This is bat country. -Duke--Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
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RedNucleus
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Re: The close-mind of the open-minded philosophy [Re: EmptySpace]
#5540465 - 04/21/06 09:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'll forgive you for your insolence as you are but a n00b.
lolzorz
--------------------
Namaste
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