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OfflineRedNucleus
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Abortion: is it killing babies?
    #5515735 - 04/14/06 11:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I say yes, abortion is baby killling.
I'm also for abortion. As long as the cord isn't cut I'm A-OK with it. I realize that this position is a sore subject for many (my mom was at an anti-abortion rally on the side of the road yesterday, for instance) but it's really what I feel should be a human right.

Let's please discuss the issue without any heated arguing.


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Namaste


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5515837 - 04/14/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I believe the process of consciousness becoming clothed in form begins early on, so I believe it should be avoided at all costs and should be extremely rare.

At the same time though, it is a complicated issue, that brings up various scenarios, like rape, as well as women's rights, etc. I just don't like the idea of abortions on demand simply because a baby would pose an inconvenience for someone.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinejcdangerously
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5515846 - 04/14/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The way I see it, abortion is the only sensible choice. There is a population problem in the US. I believe we as a society should be focusing on adopting unwanted children out of foster homes and orphanages rather than giving in to the biological urge to have children of our own.

No matter how you look at it, abortion is ending a life. What manner of life, I couldn't say. Regardless, it seems to be a necessary action under certain circumstances.

Quote:

As long as the cord isn't cut I'm A-OK with it.




How are you going to propose we have a civilized discussion and then spit out this retarded garbage?


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InvisibleI_was_the_walrus
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5515874 - 04/14/06 12:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think the only logical explanation for abortion would be population control, being raped and not wanting the child, or being too poor to afford the child. Why else would you need an abortion? You've got future plans for yourself and a child would only complicate things? Well too damn bad. You can only say "oops" to so many things. I dont see "Oops, Ive created a life...Ill just destroy it" as being an acceptable oops. Its not like farting...

The world cant change for the better now, its gone too far down. We have too many people using too much and giving back nothing. Not only that but there's too many opinions on how things should be run and what needs to be done to fix it. So in the end population control is pointless..

Being raped and not wanting the child? If you raped a girl...you should be destroyed, not the child. I would say if I had to pick a reason for abortion being acceptable this would be it.

Being too poor to afford the child? Why didn't you think of that in the first place? Are you an idiot? Abortion is no answer for your irresponsibility. There is a cause and effect for everything. YOU did what YOU did and taking another life you created to save your own is inexcusable. Then you've got the debate: Well then what about the child? Is it to starve to death? Be sick its whole life? Why would you put a child through all that when you can just end it before it happens...you know, do it a favor?

There's too many sides with too many good points on each. I have no side, I'm just discussing the topic as requested.:)


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: jcdangerously]
    #5515893 - 04/14/06 12:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Please refrain from calling my opinion retarded garbage. I have put a lot of thought into it.

The umbilical cord supplies oxygen to the fetus from the mother's circulatory system. Once the umbilical cord is cut, the baby must start using it's own lungs for respiration. It is at this time that I consider the child an individual organism, rather than an organism on developmental life support.


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Namaste


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: I_was_the_walrus]
    #5515913 - 04/14/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I feel that it is irresponsible to allow a child to live if the resources for raising the person to adulthood are not in the parents' possesion.

Yes, I think that many people in the world are, in fact, idiots. I do not say this to be contemptful. I do not think that many people in the world have the self control, education, or intelligence to avoid unwanted pregnancy. Therefore, I support ending the unwanted pregnancy before a child comes into a world and gets neglected or abused.


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Namaste


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Offlinejcdangerously
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5515914 - 04/14/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What is it about the infant breathing on it's own that leads you to make this conclusion? Do you believe that it denotes self-sufficience, and therefore the cutoff point for abortion?

What we should be focusing on here is sentience and self-awareness. The child is clearly self aware by then, which would make the act nothing less than premeditated murder.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5515921 - 04/14/06 12:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Abortion is fetus killing(or in some cases, embryo killing), not baby killing. I think the crux of the issue lies in whether or not a fetus is a human being. If it is a human being, then it deserves all the rights of a human being, including the right to life. If it isn't, then we may dispose of it for the good of the mother. I'm actually still undecided on this issue.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: jcdangerously]
    #5515926 - 04/14/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I do not agree that we should be focusing on sentience and self awareness. I also do not agree that a newborn child is sentient. I think that it is more likely that lower instinctual brain functions are running the newborn child's behavior.


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Namaste


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5515941 - 04/14/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I believe we are at a disagreement about the terminology we are using.

I believe that a zygote, embryo, fetus, and myself are all human beings. You do not. We should both agree on a terminology fast!


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Namaste


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5516534 - 04/14/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
f it is a human being, then it deserves all the rights of a human being, including the right to life.




"The right to live" is not really a right, certainly not a natural right.

In nature, if a cat cannot support the amount of children it has given birth to, it will eat one of its babies. Seen it happen. :lol: The nutrition from eating the kitten will be dispersed to the other kittens, if it even keeps one, thus providing for more life.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5516565 - 04/14/06 04:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"your not a human being, until your in my phone book" - Bill Hicks

1) the issue comes down to a question of consciousness for many. Some people think that the nanosecond a sperm shakes hands with an egg there is consciousness, some take the bible literally and think the first breath is the breath of life, some people think the 49th day is when the soul enters the body. None of the thousands of theories can be combined to come to an agreement on the issue.

2) IMO, it doesnt matter if a fetus has already gotten past "I think , therefor I am", it has still yet to live. How can you take life away from something which has not truly lived?
I just sent all of you million dollar checks, but then cancelled them... does that make you a millionaire?

3) babies die everyday, in the womb, 5 seconds out the womb, 8 months out the womb. Complications arising from known hazardous factors where the mother got pregnant anyway. The only thing that is ended in an abortion, is possibilities, and those could have either been great, or horrible.
What do you think is more unethical: bringing a child into this world which you know you arent ready for, might have to put up for adoption, or grow up in the shittiest of conditions? or wishing to not carry the burden of shame and place it on an innocent?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5516779 - 04/14/06 05:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There is a fuzzy line at which a blob of chemicals becomes a person. Exactly when that happens is different depending on who you ask and varies from case to case. This is why the decision to abort should rest with the woman and her physician, not with the law.

I think the more difficult question would be: is it better to end the misery of an unborn person who has crossed that fuzzy line or to let them come into the world to live a life alone and unwanted?

I try to consider most things functionally. Since we already have more people than we need, and since the child is far more likely to suffer in life than to prosper and be happy, ending its life before it is even aware enough to be afraid is the better choice. :frown:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5516785 - 04/14/06 05:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
some people think the 49th day is when the soul enters the body.




I believe it.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: Diploid]
    #5516798 - 04/14/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"This is why the decision to abort should rest with the woman and her physician, not with the law."

Straight.


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Namaste


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5516799 - 04/14/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It's killing something, but i wouldn't exactly call a fetus a baby. That's like calling a seed a tree.


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Invisiblesever
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: moog]
    #5516852 - 04/14/06 06:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

~


Edited by sever (07/17/06 02:19 PM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: sever]
    #5516872 - 04/14/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

America tries to act like it has a problem with death. It is afflicted with hypocrititis, much like a girl I was talking to once who was going on and on about how dolphins are killed in tuna nets, pretty whales in captivity and panda bears being killed towards extinction..... then let out a shriek and squashed a spider.

thousands of iraqi's - no sweat off our nuts
thousands of american soldiers - (place patriotic sentiment here)
hundreds of "criminals" put to death - fuck em
lump of cells - jesus will destroy you!


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Invisiblesever
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: sever]
    #5516882 - 04/14/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

~


Edited by sever (07/17/06 02:19 PM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: sever]
    #5516913 - 04/14/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

no, but there should be a limit to how many Baby's daddy's you can have. I know it would be devastating to the content of jerry Springeresque talk shows, but it could be a good step forward for all of humanity!


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OfflineToddo
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5516914 - 04/14/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think wording has a lot to due with the matter.

Like you said: lump of cells. Or others say "baby"

I don't think its a lump of cells..its much more complicated then that.


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Shroomery Composition Contest


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: Toddo]
    #5516929 - 04/14/06 07:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

its the difference between trying to sell a house, and trying to sell a home.

whatever spin you would like to place upon it to cater to your argument.

baby:an extremely young child; especially : INFANT (2) : an extremely young animal b : the youngest of a group

fetus:an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually three months after conception to birth
zygote: a cell formed by the union of two gametes; broadly : the developing individual produced from such a cell


depending on whether it is younger or older than three months, the only proper word is either zygote or fetus. However, a lump of cells is closer to the definition of a zygote than a baby is to the definition of a fetus.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5516939 - 04/14/06 07:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I just wanted to jump in mostly to say that I really appreciate the men out there who view it as a woman's personal choice.  :thumbup:


People sometimes forget that pro choice just means pro choice and not pro abortion. There are people who would never have one themselves yet at least respect the rights of others to tend to their own reproductive biology.

If any male out there reading this or yet to post says, "What if I get a female pregnant and I want to keep and raise the baby and she wants an abortion? Don't I have a say?":flowstone:

Yes you do! You have a say in who you have sex with. :smile: If you want children, then have sex with a woman who wants one with you or you have the right and choice not to have sex with her. :wink:

If you go ahead anyway knowing she doesn't want to get pregnant, use double duty birth control, and realize that if she ends up pregnant anyway, you knew going into it that she didn't want to get pregnant. That's where you had your say- before sex, not after.

I'm not saying if it ever happens to you anyway after reading this and you feel that way, that you shouldn't let her know you are willing to take full legal custody. She may then decide to go ahead in such a case. :shrug:

I don't understand where some men believe they should have a right to force a woman to go through an unwanted pregnancy. If he wants to control something so badly, he can take control over his decisions regarding who he has sex with if he's against abortion. He should have sex with women who are against it too. :wink:

Just my opinion.

To answer your question, I personally choose to see abortion as killing the "potential" for human life.

It would be encouraging to see more discussion in the world, especially with teens about "responsible sex" and rape prevention, so abortion will no longer even be an issue, save for extreme medical situations.

Thank's for listening.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5516943 - 04/14/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Scenario A) what about when the two people before having sex, or atleast getting pregnant, talked and agreed upon an abortion, woman gets pregnant, gets some maternal subconscious bond with it, and refuses to have an abortion?

Scenario B) A girl secretly wants to get pregnant, knowing that her boyfriend doesnt want that, stops taking the pill, and even after being asked that she took it, lies to him and gets pregnant?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5516958 - 04/14/06 07:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It is only a sin to kill something if you are not going to eat it. This is what I learned when I used to hunt.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5516967 - 04/14/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Described by executives of Channel 4 as a "thought-provoking film about extreme art in China," the documentary features a man named Zhu Yu, who displays photographs in which he washes a stillborn child in a sink and then consumes it. Just for luck, the program, called "Beijing Swings," also features a man drinking the wine used to preserve an amputated penis and follows hard upon Channel 4's showing last month of a live-action autopsy. Insisting he could not "find any law which prevents us from eating people," Zhu Yu suggests, "I took advantage of the space between morality and the law and based my work on it."




here is the man, the myth, the legend!!!!!



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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5516985 - 04/14/06 07:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think that was very well thought out


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Namaste


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5517039 - 04/14/06 07:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Ooooooh good questions. I'm not a male so, I don't have to be too concerned about that but you guys sure do. Women that deceive guys, really should be on their own with that one. I think that's an extremely LOW and SELFISH thing for a woman to do to a guy. :thumbdown:

How do you get the laws to co-operate in such cases? How do you prove it in court and even if you could, would the laws free you from any obligation to child support? You guys should start making women sign pre-sex contract agreements first.:lol:

I'm making sure to raise my daughter to know better then that. As a matter of fact, floating around the pool today, she asked me what taking advantage of another meant and we had a long heart to heart about it. We'll be sure to have many more such discussions.

If I were to advise my son if I had one, I would tell him that he could avoid the potential problems of both scenarios by "ALWAYS using a condom as well as really getting to know pretty well the character of the person he is having sex with first.

Regarding scenario A, if he is old enough and responsible enough to be having sex and at least cares about her, I think a mature male could work he's way through understanding a woman's potential change of heart. Thats a tougher one though. My heart would go out to Both of them. :frown:)

If a man can not afford potential child support, what is he even doing having sex? He should be out looking for work. :tongue:

What is your solution and how would you enforce a release form obligation legally?

Otherwise, it doesn't matter what I think, the law says, you will help PAY for it, even though the law doesn't force you to help raise it.

No one forces a man to have sex with a woman. Doing so puts him at risk for lots of things beside the potential to end up paying child support. Without wearing a condom, you also put yourself at risk for risk STDs.

Use condoms you guys until you are happily married to someone you fully trust and want to be the mother of your children. If you NEVER want kids, get a vasectomy.

I'm glad you asked those questions psilo. Sexually active men out there need to be thinking about these things. :thumbup:

:heart: :peace:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5517048 - 04/14/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I forgot to add that if a woman ensured a guy she would not go ahead with a pregnancy if she accidentally got pregnant and then, did and had a sincere change of heart, I think the ONLY decent thing for her to do, would be, to not hold him legally obligated to child support. Thats only being fair. :thumbup:
:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5517067 - 04/14/06 08:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I have often thought about harvesting/freezing a few cuploads of semen and just having a vasectomy.

I think a lot of women have children to create a change in themselves, as well as having hopes of making them happier. Kind of selfish, but maybe it is a neccessity for humanity to go on. Up to the point where the umbilical chord is severed, it seems as if the mother is the newborn and the stomach area is regarded as a precious pet. The mother is "showered" with gifts, cards, flowers, attention etc.

Then they wonder why PND sets in..... unsatisfied person gets 9 months of extreme care and attention, then gets dropped back to equivalent status......


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Abortion: is it killing babies? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5517130 - 04/14/06 08:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

And you sound like a mature and understanding male there. Female hormones are complicated :lol: Say a woman didn't want to get pregnant and thought she could abort if she did on accident. Once she is pregnant, a whole new flood of hormones kick in that could effect her emotional state and give cause to a change of heart/mind about going through with one. Like I said, the least she could do then, is take on sole custody and support herself.

Vasectomies I read have a pretty decent success rate with reversal operations. If you think you are sure about not wanting children, yet are just being realistic about a change of mind in the far distant future, that may be a good choice for you.

I use to NEVER want kids and then, met my husband at age 26 and something goofy happened. I wanted kids with him. :confused: That was wild. First time in my life I felt that way. A change of mind can happen if the chemistry is wonderfully goofy enough.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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