Home | Community | Message Board

World Seed Supply
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]
Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Nothing gringo on May 1
    #5515252 - 04/14/06 09:28 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/04/14/mexico.boycott.ap/index.html
Quote:

MEXICO CITY, Mexico (AP) -- "The Great American Boycott" is spreading south of the border, as activists call for Mexicans to boycott U.S. businesses on May 1.

The protest is timed to coincide with a May 1 boycott of work and shopping in the United States that also has been dubbed "A Day Without Immigrants." The boycott, which grew out of huge pro-migrant marches across the United States, is designed to pressure Congress to legalize millions of undocumented people.

Mexican unions, political and community groups, newspaper columnists and even some Mexican government offices have joined the call in recent days.

"Remember, nothing gringo on May 1," advises one of the many e-mails being circulated among Internet users in Mexico.

"On May 1, people shouldn't buy anything from the interminable list of American businesses in Mexico," reads another. "That means no Dunkin' Donuts, no McDonald's, Burger King, Starbucks, Sears, Krispy Kreme or Wal-Mart."

For some it's a way to express anti-U.S. sentiment, while others see it as part of a cross-border, Mexican-power lobby.

In some cases, advocates incorrectly identified firms as American -- Sears stores in Mexico, for example, have been owned by Mexican billionaire Carlos Slim since 1997.

And ironically, the protest targets the U.S. business community, which is one of the strongest supporters of legalization or guest-worker programs.

"At the end of the day, boycotting would only hurt corporations that are backing what people want done in the immigration bill," said Larry Rubin, CEO of the American Chamber of Commerce in Mexico. Rubin is encouraging people to write to their legislators instead of boycotting.

Roberto Vigil of the California-based immigrants rights group Hermandad Mexicana said his group has asked some of Mexico's largest labor unions to back the protest. Elias Bermudez, president of the Phoenix-based Immigrants Without Borders, is actively promoting the boycott in interviews with Mexican radio and television stations.

Mexican groups are responding. Pablo Gonzalez, spokesman for one of Mexico's largest labor unions, the Federation of Revolutionary Workers and Farmers, said his organization will support a boycott against "at least four of the most important U.S. firms, among them Wal-Mart," Mexico's largest retailer.

Two other major labor groups -- the telephone workers' and auto workers' unions -- also are expected to join, Vigil said.

Even parts of the Mexican government have signed onto the protest.

"We are not going to be buying any products from the United States on May 1," said Lolita Parkinson, national coordinator for the National Board of State Offices on Attention for Migrants, which represents state government-run migrant aid offices.

For some, the boycott is fueled not just by debate on the immigration bill, but by long-standing resentment over the perceived mistreatment of Mexicans in the United States.

"We want to show the power we have as Mexicans," said Carlos Chavez y Pacho, vice president of the chamber of commerce in Piedras Negras, across from Eagle Pass, Texas. Chavez y Pacho is also urging Mexicans not to shop in U.S. border cities on May 1, in part to protest what he calls arrogant behavior by U.S. customs officials and border officers.

Rafael Ruiz Harrell, who writes a column in the Mexico City newspaper Metro, predicted the boycott could give rise to a broader, pan-Latino movement.

"If we could get all of Latin America, for one day, to leave the U.S. firms without customers, we would be sending the kind of clear message they seem incapable of understanding," he wrote.




Instead of not buying american products, maybe they should just not come to america illegally.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: 1stimer]
    #5515474 - 04/14/06 10:35 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

so basically they won't buy anything!?

it's not like anything is actually made in mexico.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: 1stimer]
    #5515480 - 04/14/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Instead of not buying american products, maybe they should just not come to america illegally.




:thumbup:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Redstorm]
    #5516454 - 04/14/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

We should invade Mexico and annex it to the USA. That way they will all be US citizens.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinewilshire
free radical
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: 1stimer]
    #5516911 - 04/14/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

gringos...

if you want to boycott stuff made by mexicans for a day... don't eat anything.


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: 1stimer]
    #5517713 - 04/15/06 12:34 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That does it.

I'm boycotting Taco Bell.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblealbino_shroom
you say early, Isay already
Male

Registered: 03/26/06
Posts: 461
Loc: everywhere but here
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: wilshire]
    #5517725 - 04/15/06 12:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Brownies.....

how bout they go back to mexico and boycott america from there.


--------------------
"If it wasn't for my white guilt, I'd make you cry."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBasilides
Servent ofWisdom
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: 1stimer]
    #5518189 - 04/15/06 07:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Is "Gringo" a derogatory term for Americans?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Basilides]
    #5518217 - 04/15/06 07:54 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Is "Gringo" a derogatory term for Americans?




I don't know if it is derogatory...but it is a Mexican reference for white people.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletrauma47645
The MushroomKing
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 771
Loc: Somewhere in this place c...
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5518230 - 04/15/06 08:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

screw thme beaners south of the border is that way man.. they dont want to support the american industries that are down there.. lets pull all the american business and industries back into the states and give the jobs to people who really need them (people on welfare and such).. and then see how well the mexican economy does.. they will be begging for aid and us to put the businesses back..


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: albino_shroom]
    #5518494 - 04/15/06 10:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Brownies.....

how bout they go back to mexico and boycott america from there.



:thumbup:


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegregorio
Too Damn Old
Male

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,831
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: 1stimer]
    #5519655 - 04/15/06 10:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't like how they have dubbed this , "A day without immigrants." A deliberate attempt to mislead in my opinion.

I don't know of anybody who has any problems with immigrants; legal, documented immigrants that is.

It is the illegal ones that must be stopped and who are causing so many problems.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebukkake
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Basilides]
    #5519689 - 04/15/06 10:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

For any white American.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: bukkake]
    #5519774 - 04/15/06 11:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Or for any legal immigrant.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekotik
fuckingsuperhero
 User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
Last seen: 4 years, 24 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Redstorm]
    #5520278 - 04/16/06 05:57 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i wasnt aware we had any exports other than military.... so what exactly are they going to boycott? american cars? hah.. electronics? hah...

we get all of our shit from china anyways.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 8 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: 1stimer]
    #5520358 - 04/16/06 07:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

They should stop buying from billionaires. Who cares what color/nationality they are?


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekotik
fuckingsuperhero
 User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
Last seen: 4 years, 24 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5520663 - 04/16/06 11:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i agree. everytime there was a "boycott" day, wouldnt it make more sense to focus not on a boycott, but on setting up a foundation for their own economy. even if that just means they all decide to grow diff types of food and trade / etc.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: kotik]
    #5520805 - 04/16/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

As long as there is a perceived chance to escape to the US Mexicans will never clean up their own country.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEkstaza
stranger than most
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
Last seen: 9 months, 23 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: trauma47645]
    #5521036 - 04/16/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

trauma47645 said:
screw thme beaners south of the border is that way man.. they dont want to support the american industries that are down there.. lets pull all the american business and industries back into the states and give the jobs to people who really need them (people on welfare and such).. and then see how well the mexican economy does.. they will be begging for aid and us to put the businesses back..



Many people on welfare don't want jobs, they want handouts.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5521081 - 04/16/06 01:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
As long as there is a perceived chance to escape to the US Mexicans will never clean up their own country.





thank you. I'm glad someone said this.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5521097 - 04/16/06 01:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Many people on welfare don't want jobs, they want handouts.


Do you have any evidence for this? Or have you just pulled it from your ass?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEkstaza
stranger than most
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
Last seen: 9 months, 23 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5521110 - 04/16/06 02:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Many people on welfare don't want jobs, they want handouts.


Do you have any evidence for this? Or have you just pulled it from your ass?



I have witnessed many examples of this phenomenon in and around my area. It may be different elsewhere, but here, I know many people who work the system and don't want anything more.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5521128 - 04/16/06 02:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah I know but that's not very reliable is it. It's like some right-winger saying "I've met jews and they're all rich and have hooknoses and I met nigras and they were horrible too".

It means fuck all. You can't generalise about entire groups of people.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5521152 - 04/16/06 02:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

He didn't generalize. He said "many want hand-outs". He didn't a "all of them" or "a majority of them". What he said can not even be argued to be false.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Redstorm]
    #5521162 - 04/16/06 02:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Actually he did generalise. How many has he met? There are millions of people on welfare.

If I say "many nigras are shiftless and stupid" or "many jews are money grabbing bastards" that's acceptable is it?

I don't think so. I think it's an utterly meaningless statement you say when you dislike the group you're trying to label.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5521206 - 04/16/06 02:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It is acceptable.

It's just as acceptable as saying that many whites are racists. It's just a statement, and it's a true one.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebukkake
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5521225 - 04/16/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

About 5% of Americans are composed of the underclass, those entirely dependent upon government funds. I have heard of many who abuse the welfare system because it is so ridiculously structured, but the figure is not as horrible and gut-wrenching as the capitalists would like to make it out to be. The capitalists would like to convince the country everyone depending on government benefits is a lazy person robbing food off their table.

Perhaps this income redistribution would be more adequate if the stealing of funds by those at the head were not existent.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: bukkake]
    #5521241 - 04/16/06 02:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:

Many people do it, but I don't think it's as wide-spread as some people believe it is.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEkstaza
stranger than most
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
Last seen: 9 months, 23 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5521421 - 04/16/06 03:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Actually he did generalise. How many has he met? There are millions of people on welfare.



Actually I didn't!
I used the word "many" because it doesn't mean all. The word choice was deliberate. I do also know welfare recipients that truly need assistance. It's some of them who have helped me to see the ones who abuse the system.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I don't think so. I think it's an utterly meaningless statement you say when you dislike the group you're trying to label.



Thank you for clearing this up for me. I had no idea that I disliked welfare recipients.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5521481 - 04/16/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Perhaps this income redistribution would be more adequate if the stealing of funds by those at the head were not existent. "

Yep, that's right, the rich are rich because they stole from those who have nothing. Took everything they had. That is nothing. They stole all the nothing there was to steal and now the have nots have nothing. Yep, makes perfect sense.

As a personal aside bukkake, do you have any aspirations to work for a living or are you just constantly whining because you want to live off of my titty.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5521789 - 04/16/06 05:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No hay consumar productos de estados unidos sin my esposa. Yo quiero mucho chinga y no palabras
Hasta putos :wink:
WR


--------------------
To old for this place


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebukkake
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5521862 - 04/16/06 05:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That part is accurate. The welfare state for the wealthy your men in office are creating, where social inequality is fabulous and glorious.

The second is not. I work. I also have no idea where you would get the idea I would like to mooch off your labor over the idea of mutualism.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: gregorio]
    #5522006 - 04/16/06 06:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It is the illegal ones that must be stopped and who are causing so many problems.




And what problems would these be? If not for "illegals" the nation would starve and the economy would take a major hit.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinewilshire
free radical
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Vvellum]
    #5522185 - 04/16/06 06:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

people have a strange vague "common sense" idea that illegal workers hurt the US economy. "they take jobs" or something...

bad understanding of economics, plain and simple. it does not hurt the US economy to have people coming here to work.

mexicans come here and they work. they get paid in US dollars. whether they spend those dollars in america immediately, or send them back to mexico, they will support american production and employment in doing so.

by working here for less than americans are willing to, they allow people to buy food for less than they would otherwise spend. this decreases the cost of food, and permits americans to spend more on other things, both good things in themselves, but also increases production and employment in other sectors. then mexicans are paid more here than they are in mexico. everyone wins.

it's just having more producing individuals in the work force. it doesn't hurt. it helps.

mexican workers are good for the united states. i'm not usually one to pull out the race card, but i can't shake the idea that your typical anti-mexican-worker adherent assumes at face value that having dirty, poor mexicans coming into our country (and breaking the law to do so no less) must be a bad thing, and it's obvious they have nothing to offer and are a drain on our social services and pool of available jobs. simply not true. they provide an invaluable service and are good for our economy.

and they aren't going anywhere. even if we didn't need them, which we do, and endeavored to get rid of them, we all know how prohibition works. having an underground economy of people living in the shadows (and moving across our borders in the process) is definitely bad for national security, and it's not very humane, but the solution is not to bar people from coming to america to work. it's legalizing it and letting people travel here to work. as long as they're actually here to work, and they don't place a burden on our schools, prisons, or welfare roles, there's nothing wrong with them being here. it's a good thing.


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTippinthru
contented

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,131
Loc: "The Garden"...
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: wilshire]
    #5522426 - 04/16/06 08:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:congrats: Well said!

As I was reading through this thread I couldn't wait to Post, however, waiting for the opportunity to add  :2cents: was Exciting!

To add to your view in MHO, I would like to add, Most Americans wouldn't take the pay or hard work some of these humbled Immigrants have endured! That's what keeps them here. They have come here and seized an Opportunity to better they're lives.
Don't forget they pay taxes too!
I can surely understand the stand we all feel that Immigration Needs Reformed, however, look who's picking food from the fields We eat, Look at your Gardner, Look who is detailing your ride at the car wash,
Look who is picking up your garbage every Tuesday morning off the curb, Look who is building the house you live in, Look who is cooking your breakfast at your local coffee shop and drive thru. Would you do these jobs?
Someone has too we've become accustomed to it!  :wink:


--------------------
Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time...
[


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5522799 - 04/16/06 09:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I would like to add, Most Americans wouldn't take the pay or hard work some of these humbled Immigrants have endured!



Cheap labor hm?
Lets employ the billions upon billions of people in the world who would work for less than americans would.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: 1stimer]
    #5522967 - 04/16/06 10:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

that's your only response to what wilshire, tippinthru, and myself said..?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 8 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: 1stimer]
    #5522970 - 04/16/06 10:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hells yeah, I'll take three!

Seriously, where can I get me a bunch of LBPs (Little Brown People) to do a bunch of shit for me. Why do all these multinational corporations get to make money hand over fist exploiting these people and I don't?

Does anybody want to go in on a Mexican with me?

What should we make them do?

How would we profit from it?


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5523072 - 04/16/06 11:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Lets make em fight our wars for us since we shouldnt have to risk the lives that americans dont want to risk.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5523281 - 04/17/06 01:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Actually I didn't!


Yes you did.

I used the word "many" because it doesn't mean all. The word choice was deliberate

And I asked you how many you had met. Lets say there are 7 million people on welfare in the US. Lets be generous and say you have met 20 people on welfare. Out of those 20 lets give you the benefit of the doubt and say you know 10 well enough to have a discussion with and for them to tell you that they'd prefer to take welfare than work.

You therefore know 10 people out of 7 million. That isn't "many" in my book. Not even close. When you have met 5 or 6 hundred thousand more then get back to us.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaussaulit
Forgetful

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,894
Loc: Earth
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: afoaf]
    #5523347 - 04/17/06 01:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:it's not like anything is actually made in mexico.



Ford, GM, Chevrolet, Volkswagon.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 8 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5523651 - 04/17/06 07:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Here's a fact for ya.

In America most poor people are poor because they choose to be. Either that or they are mentally handicapped somehow.

Actually, most poor people in America do have a mental handicap. They call it their "culture".


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekotik
fuckingsuperhero
 User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
Last seen: 4 years, 24 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5523781 - 04/17/06 08:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

In America most poor people are poor because they choose to be. Either that or they are mentally handicapped somehow ... They call it their "culture".




yes, but really, that "culture" is a trendy version of a counter-culture, both which stem (even if by resistance) from actual issues, like minimum wage not being (reasonable) enough to sustain an actual family, that doesnt cheat on taxes or make any undeclared income.  And minimum wage is an accurate model for the rest of the ladder, all the way to the top (well, at least to that glass ceiling  :rolleyes:)

the biggest businesses know that the average guy cant afford to buy all of this shit they are selling us, even with all these payment plans and etc.  if we were to remove just a few of the intrusive methods of advertisement, and changed the laws on credit cards / loans in favor to the customers, than lots of problems would begin to dissolve.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5523849 - 04/17/06 09:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

In America most poor people are poor because they choose to be. Either that or they are mentally handicapped somehow.




I am an American and I am considered poor by annual income standards. I am poor because I cannot find a better paying job despite my excellent education and background and initiative to obtain higher employment. I had no choice but to take a much lesser paying job in order to feed myself, pay rent, pay bills, and all things necessary for living independently. Unlike rich folk, I have no one that could help me out nor am I interested in taking hand-outs from anyone. I have too much pride and I do not want to owe anyone.

To say that I am choosing to be poor or that I am caught in the situation that I am in because I am mentally handicapped, is extremely ignorant of you. I am guessing you've never faced these challenges before, otherwise you would not be making such asinine statements as these.

:rolleyes:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: kotik]
    #5524192 - 04/17/06 10:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
the biggest businesses know that the average guy cant afford to buy all of this shit they are selling us, even with all these payment plans and etc. if we were to remove just a few of the intrusive methods of advertisement, and changed the laws on credit cards / loans in favor to the customers, than lots of problems would begin to dissolve.




That is absurd. People chose what they buy. If they can't afford something and they buy it anyways, that is not the company's fault; it is the fault of the consumer. People need to have a little self-responsibility.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Vvellum]
    #5524220 - 04/17/06 10:45 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

How old are you? Virtually everyone who works is considered "poor" by the standard government measures for the first several years they are working, simply because it's rare to land a forty grand a year job right out of the box. Odds are you won't remain "poor" much longer.

What is your educational background? When you say you can't find a higher-paying job, is that because you aren't interested in taking a job outside your chosen field, for example? Or that you are not willing to relocate?

I left home with a high school diploma and around a hundred dollars. For the first few years of my working career I was definitely "poor" by any standard government measure. Five years later I no longer fit that definition, and five years after that (age 28) I was doing pretty damn well for myself. If I can do it, you can do it.



Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Phred]
    #5524303 - 04/17/06 11:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I am in my mid-to-late 20s.

Quote:

Virtually everyone who works is considered "poor" by the standard government measures for the first several years they are working, simply because it's rare to land a forty grand a year job right out of the box. Odds are you won't remain "poor" much longer.




Hopefully that is the case.

Quote:

What is your educational background?




Bachelors and currently working a Masters degree.

Quote:

When you say you can't find a higher-paying job, is that because you aren't interested in taking a job outside your chosen field, for example? Or that you are not willing to relocate?




Unable to relocate due to school and lease. Unable to commute outside of the city because I do not drive. I regularly apply to jobs but there is so much competition (everyone has a bachelors degree - it is the new high school diploma) and my availability isnt the easiest to manage due to my education commitments.

I know I will not be poor forever because I am resourceful, independent, and hard-working - but I do not see myself making money for the next several years. Until then I am poor - not out of my own volition nor out of some sort of handicap. I do see a light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel, but I am not going to kid myself - it'll be at least 2 or 3 years more (10+ years since I became independent).


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: daussaulit]
    #5524355 - 04/17/06 11:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

ah, yes, I stand corrected.

good thing I don't drive an Exploder.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 8 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Vvellum]
    #5524387 - 04/17/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You don't sound poor to me.

What valuable services can you provide with your degree(s)? Did you actually learn a valuable skill in college, or do you have one of those useless degrees like music or art?

Maybe Chicago isn't the best place for you to live financially speaking.

Have you considered your self-employment options?


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5524723 - 04/17/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Here's a fact for ya.

In America most poor people are poor because they choose to be. Either that or they are mentally handicapped somehow.

Actually, most poor people in America do have a mental handicap. They call it their "culture".




Oh come on, I know you're smarter than this. Most people are poor because they choose to be? So you're telling me that its possible to have an capitalist economic system in which everyone is rich? Who would build houses, who would clean windows, who would fry burgers?

For rich people to exist there needs to be a large number of poor people that they make money off of. Thats part of the way it works. Not everyone can be rich because there is only so much capital out there.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Vvellum]
    #5525076 - 04/17/06 01:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

bi0 writes:

Quote:

Unable to relocate due to school and lease. Unable to commute outside of the city because I do not drive. I regularly apply to jobs but there is so much competition (everyone has a bachelors degree - it is the new high school diploma) and my availability isnt the easiest to manage due to my education commitments.




You prove Baby_H's point. You are poor (at this moment) because of choices you have made. If you valued immediate higher income over deferred (hopefully even higher) income, you'd stop your studies, thus improving your availability, sublet your place, learn to drive, move elsewhere and get a better paying job. Or even stay where you are and get a higher paying job. They're out there.

Instead, you have chosen (wisely, in my opinion) to do the "starving student" routine now so you can be better off down the road with a Master's degree. Always assuming of course the Masters degree is in a field valuable to potential high-paying employers.

Quote:

I know I will not be poor forever because I am resourceful, independent, and hard-working - but I do not see myself making money for the next several years. Until then I am poor - not out of my own volition nor out of some sort of handicap.




So sorry, but you are poor at the moment by your own volition. You didn't have to pursue a Masters. You did that volitionally. For that matter you didn't have to even get a Bachelors. You did that out of your own volition, too.

Again, I am not saying you are following an incorrect path. I'm just saying that if you had started working immediately out of high school, you would likely not be poor at this moment. That's the choice I made -- stop school and get some coin together immediately. Friends of mine went the other route -- be poor for another four or five years, then enter the workforce at a higher salary than I did. The thing is, in my case (and yes, I know it doesn't always work out that way) by the time my friends were done with their schooling, I was making an annual income as good as (and in many cases better than) they were able to land for their first job, plus I had five years of savings to boot. Did some of them pass me some years down the road, to the point where their net worth was greater than mine? Sure. I'm not saying my way of doing things yields the greatest net worth forty or fifty years down the road. But it's a faster way to get out of the "poor" category at a younger age.



Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5525106 - 04/17/06 01:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

gluke_bastid writes:

Quote:

Oh come on, I know you're smarter than this. Most people are poor because they choose to be? So you're telling me that its possible to have an capitalist economic system in which everyone is rich? Who would build houses, who would clean windows, who would fry burgers?




No, he's not saying that. Not everyone need be "rich" in order for there to be very few "poor" (and for those who are poor to remain so only temporarily). Besides, house builders make a pretty decent living. And how many burger flippers stay burger flippers for more than a few years? Not very many.

Quote:

For rich people to exist there needs to be a large number of poor people that they make money off of.




That's about as wrongheaded a statement as it is possible to make. Poor people don't have any money to hand over to the rich. That's why they call them "poor", duh. Tough to make money off people who have none.

Quote:

Thats part of the way it works. Not everyone can be rich because there is only so much capital out there.




Wealth is not static. Wealth is created by productive human effort and as such it increases constantly. And once again, not everyone need be "rich" in order for there to be no (or next to no) "poor". Does the concept "middle class" ring a bell?




Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 8 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5525162 - 04/17/06 01:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Depends on what you mean by "rich" and "poor". If you're going to consider yourself poor as long as there is someone richer than you, then yes you're always going to be poor.

And it will still be your choice.

As for your questions, I'll answer them with more questions.

Who washes your clothes? Who bathes your dog? Who wipes your ass? People can do things for themselves. How much house do you really need? is 300 sq/ft enough? 1000? 10,000?

Are you suggesting that people who build houses necessarily need to be poor? Are you suggesting that in order to be not poor you have to be rich enough not to have to work?

The only way we would ever achieve that kind of society would be if there were some magical kind of technology like the replicators on Star Trek and everybody could have anything they wanted for free.

In this reality not everyone can have as much stuff as Bill Gates. There aren't enough resources to support that kind of world, but then again there aren't enough resources to sustain the world we currently live in either.

If you have enough food, water, shelter and medicine to get by then you are not poor. You might be dissatisfied, but not poor.

Congrats on your 666th post BTW.


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEkstaza
stranger than most
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
Last seen: 9 months, 23 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5526500 - 04/17/06 07:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tippinthru said:
...........Don't forget they pay taxes too!..............;)



Not always. I know lots of farmers who do not take out taxes on there illegals.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTippinthru
contented

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,131
Loc: "The Garden"...
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5528139 - 04/18/06 01:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Whether the Employers take out taxes or not...they shop and buy groceries and buy items that are taxed. May 1st isn't about being rich or poor, it's about Immigration Reform! It's about immigrants, not just Latinos!  :wexican:


--------------------
Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time...
[


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Phred]
    #5528193 - 04/18/06 02:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That's about as wrongheaded a statement as it is possible to make. Poor people don't have any money to hand over to the rich. That's why they call them "poor", duh. Tough to make money off people who have none.


This is about as wrongheaded as you can get. Why do you think business are moving to third world countries with lots of poor people? To lose money? It's because you can employ poor people for less money and thus make bigger profits. Doh!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Phred]
    #5528851 - 04/18/06 10:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I see where you are coming from, but I do not put much stock into such black/white simplistic analysis.

I used to play baseball in high school. I was a pitcher. A teammate of mine was also a pitcher - he was excellent and went on to play in college. Eventually he was drafted to play in the minor leagues. He put his life into baseball and improving his skill in order to break into the major leagues. He traveled the country playing and sacrificed everything. He played AA and AAA ball for 5 years but was never called up despite a wide pitch selection and an impressive ERA and win/loss record. There was intense competition and other circumstances out of his range of control.

My friend do not choose to not play in the major leagues - he made his best attempt but the decisions of others prevented him from being called up.

Yes, I have choosen to be poor at this time so that I can finish a graduate program. However, when I was finished with my bachelors and had zero desire to go back to the academic world, I tried very hard to make a decent living for several years. I did everything I could (besides relocate - I live in one of the largest cities in the world with a strong economy - there are plenty of jobs here - never knew anyone who worked out in the suburbs and lived in the city - I did know plenty of people that lived in the suburbs and worked in the city, though). At that time, it was not my choice to be poor - I was affected by the choice of others not to hire me - despite my best intentions, inititiative, decent education and references. I was simply overlooked in favor as others like my friend.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Vvellum]
    #5528928 - 04/18/06 10:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I see where you are coming from, but I do not put much stock into such black/white simplistic analysis.


Oh come on, you can be a billionaire too if you only "work hard"  :smirk:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5528941 - 04/18/06 10:54 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
That's about as wrongheaded a statement as it is possible to make. Poor people don't have any money to hand over to the rich. That's why they call them "poor", duh. Tough to make money off people who have none.


This is about as wrongheaded as you can get. Why do you think business are moving to third world countries with lots of poor people? To lose money? It's because you can employ poor people for less money and thus make bigger profits. Doh!




Precisely. I'm not a communist but I wholeheartedly agree with Marx's assertion that capitalism is all about exploitation. Factory owners have been moving overseas for decades where they can build factories cheaper and employ labor cheaper. The result is that they make bigger profits when they sell the product at home. The poorer the bottom classes of the world are the richer the upper classes are.

And yes, the term middle class does ring a bell. I remember when there was a middle class. Too bad it is shrinking, and more and more people are falling through the cracks into poverty as the ironically the cost of living is getting higher.

I know a lot of people who don't want to be poor but are poor. Come to Baltimore and you will see what I mean. We are a broke ass city.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5528972 - 04/18/06 11:07 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)


Depends on what you mean by "rich" and "poor". If you're going to consider yourself poor as long as there is someone richer than you, then yes you're always going to be poor.

And it will still be your choice.

So you're telling me that everyone is exactly where they want to be financially by choice? Every homeless person is homeless by choice? My Dad who is 68 and can't retire yet is there by choice? Every CEO who goes bankrupt does so by choice? Pepsi is number two to Coke by choice?

Who washes your clothes?  Who bathes your dog?  Who wipes your ass? People can do things for themselves. How much house do you really need? is 300 sq/ft enough? 1000? 10,000?

What does this have to do with the fact that capitalism is dependent upon cheap labor?

Are you suggesting that people who build houses necessarily need to be poor? Are you suggesting that in order to be not poor you have to be rich enough not to have to work?

I would never suggest either of those things. I am suggesting that in today's job market there is a lot of labor that people are willing to do only because there aren't better jobs out there for them. I see the job market as being very competitive and limited. Many people have to spend their entire lives working jobs in which they barely get by and aren't able to save money. I don't think they are all their by choice.

I do recognize what you are saying though, that anyone has a choice of how far they want to push themselves in terms of financial success. I just don't agree with you that everyone can be relatively succesfull, in fact I think the economy and society in general depends on unsuccesfull people to act as worker ants who do the cheap labor that make the rest of us rich.

If you have enough food, water, shelter and medicine to get by then you are not poor. You might be dissatisfied, but not poor.

This is not my definition of poor. I would define not being poor as getting by plus being able to save money and afford occasional luxuries.

Congrats on your 666th post BTW.

thanks, it's been a long time coming  :grin:


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Vvellum]
    #5529464 - 04/18/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

bi0 writes:

Quote:

A teammate of mine was also a pitcher - he was excellent and went on to play in college. Eventually he was drafted to play in the minor leagues. He put his life into baseball and improving his skill in order to break into the major leagues. He traveled the country playing and sacrificed everything. He played AA and AAA ball for 5 years but was never called up despite a wide pitch selection and an impressive ERA and win/loss record. There was intense competition and other circumstances out of his range of control.

My friend do not choose to not play in the major leagues - he made his best attempt but the decisions of others prevented him from being called up.




And how does this relate to Baby_H's contention that the poor are poor due to choices they have made? Are you saying your friend was poor when he was playing AA and AAA ball? I'm not being facetious here, I have no idea what a pitcher in the AAA leagues makes.

Quote:

Yes, I have choosen to be poor at this time so that I can finish a graduate program. However, when I was finished with my bachelors and had zero desire to go back to the academic world, I tried very hard to make a decent living for several years. I did everything I could (besides relocate - I live in one of the largest cities in the world with a strong economy - there are plenty of jobs here - never knew anyone who worked out in the suburbs and lived in the city - I did know plenty of people that lived in the suburbs and worked in the city, though).




Chicago must have plenty of consumer electronics stores, car dealerships, furniture stores, etc. Do they never hire new people? Because it's no trick at all to make $30,000 a year or more as a commissioned sales rep at places like that. Hell, I was making closer to $40,000 than $30,000 a year selling stereo twenty-six years ago. It's true that I rarely took lunch breaks, and usually worked ten hour shifts six days a week, but that too was my choice. What was I going to do in my off hours anyway? Smoke dope and hang out in bars? Some of my colleagues put in the bare minimum the owner required, and even they did okay. They sure weren't "poor" by anyone's standards. $20,000 a year was damn good money for a young single guy in 1980.

And those are the kind of places even hungrier for decent managers than they are for salesmen. Managers of those kind of stores do well. Work a year or two as a sales rep, move up to manager, and away you go.

Quote:

At that time, it was not my choice to be poor - I was affected by the choice of others not to hire me - despite my best intentions, inititiative, decent education and references. I was simply overlooked in favor as others like my friend.




I have no idea how you come across in an interview. All I can tell you is whenever I went for an interview, I took out my earring, trimmed my beard neatly, had a fairly recent haircut, wore clean and tidy clothes appropriate for the position I was interviewing for, and took it from there. Did I get turned down for some of the positions I applied for? Sure did. But I got others. I fail to see how you could be any less attractive a candidate than I was. You have everything I had, and a degree to boot.

Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5529573 - 04/18/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

gluke_bastid writes:

Quote:

The result is that they make bigger profits when they sell the product at home.




Incorrect. The lower cost of labor is not realized as higher profit margin. At least not for any length of time to speak of. Instead businesses lower their prices in order to move more volume, thus gaining greater market share, thus putting the squeeze on their competitors.

Quote:

The poorer the bottom classes of the world are the richer the upper classes are.




That is an arbitrary statement with no foundation. Back it up.

Quote:

And yes, the term middle class does ring a bell. I remember when there was a middle class. Too bad it is shrinking, and more and more people are falling through the cracks into poverty as the ironically the cost of living is getting higher.




The middle class is shrinking? Source, please. Depends which direction it's shrinking in, too, of course. If more are moving from middle income to high income than are moving from middle to low, then there will of course be shrinkage of the middle -- but in the correct direction.

Quote:

I know a lot of people who don't want to be poor but are poor.




Baby_H may have phrased himself a tad ambiguously, but he never said all poor are poor because they want to be, rather they are poor because of the choices they make.

Quote:

So you're telling me that everyone is exactly where they want to be financially by choice?




There's an enormous difference between "wanting" to be at a certain financial position and making the necessary choices to get there. You can "want" with every fiber of your being to be hauling down 300k a year by the time you're fifty, but if you choose to work just forty hours a week and spend the money you do receive on booze, dope, cigarettes, a flashy car and closets full of designer clothes, the odds of you realizing that goal are slim to none.

Quote:

My Dad who is 68 and can't retire yet is there by choice?




Is your dad poor?

Quote:

Every CEO who goes bankrupt does so by choice?




If he bankrupted his own company, then yes, he made bad choices. He could have sold it to someone else earlier, folded it before it lost too much money, merged with another company, etc. I lost tens of thousands of dollars of my own money in a business venture once. It was entirely due to the decisions I made. I could have walked away down just a few thousand if I had made different decisions.

Quote:

Pepsi is number two to Coke by choice?




You're saying Pepsi is a "poor" company? Uh huh.

Quote:

What does this have to do with the fact that capitalism is dependent upon cheap labor?




Capitalism isn't dependent on cheap labor. It is merely dependent on the participants being left free to make their own uncoerced choices.

Quote:

I am suggesting that in today's job market there is a lot of labor that people are willing to do only because there aren't better jobs out there for them.




Correct. Please explain to us why this means poor people don't stay poor because of the choices they make.

Quote:

Many people have to spend their entire lives working jobs in which they barely get by and aren't able to save money. I don't think they are all their by choice.




People with physical, psychological, and mental handicaps? Sure. Normal folks? Nope. There are very few normal folks who couldn't get a job sufficient to keep them above the poverty level.

Quote:

I do recognize what you are saying though, that anyone has a choice of how far they want to push themselves in terms of financial success. I just don't agree with you that everyone can be relatively succesfull...




baby_H is not talking about being "relatively successful", if I haven't misread him. He's talking about living in poverty.

Quote:

...in fact I think the economy and society in general depends on unsuccesfull people to act as worker ants who do the cheap labor that make the rest of us rich.




That's the flaw in your thinking. No such dependency exists. At least, not if you're talking about America.




Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Vvellum]
    #5530285 - 04/18/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
I see where you are coming from, but I do not put much stock into such black/white simplistic analysis.

I used to play baseball in high school. I was a pitcher. A teammate of mine was also a pitcher - he was excellent and went on to play in college. Eventually he was drafted to play in the minor leagues. He put his life into baseball and improving his skill in order to break into the major leagues. He traveled the country playing and sacrificed everything. He played AA and AAA ball for 5 years but was never called up despite a wide pitch selection and an impressive ERA and win/loss record. There was intense competition and other circumstances out of his range of control.

My friend do not choose to not play in the major leagues - he made his best attempt but the decisions of others prevented him from being called up.

Yes, I have choosen to be poor at this time so that I can finish a graduate program. However, when I was finished with my bachelors and had zero desire to go back to the academic world, I tried very hard to make a decent living for several years. I did everything I could (besides relocate - I live in one of the largest cities in the world with a strong economy - there are plenty of jobs here - never knew anyone who worked out in the suburbs and lived in the city - I did know plenty of people that lived in the suburbs and worked in the city, though). At that time, it was not my choice to be poor - I was affected by the choice of others not to hire me - despite my best intentions, inititiative, decent education and references. I was simply overlooked in favor as others like my friend.




Your friend wasn't good enough. Sports, the ultimate meritocracy.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 8 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Phred]
    #5530618 - 04/18/06 07:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think most people realize that they are choosing to be less wealthy. Bill Gates is choosing to be less wealthy in some ways. I'm sure there are some decisions he could have made that would have resulted in him being possibly much much more wealthy than he is today.

But even Bill Gates also is as wealthy today partially because of luck. Both are really factors. It does take more than just perserverence.

Specifically, a lack of bad luck helps to keep one above the poverty line.

Also, it should be pointed out that the poverty line, and the misery line are not the same line. Not all rich people are happy, and not all poor people are unhappy.

Some poor people are taken advantage of by some rich people sometimes. It happens. You really can't deny it. Of course, poor people take advantage of rich people too.

Whaddayagonnadoo? :rolleyes:

Now I'm talking mostly within America, mind you. Globally, I kind of agree with the people who say Capitalism is exploitation... just kind of though.

I mean honestly, imagine for a moment you're a 10 year old Hatian girl. Now formulate a plan to become middle class by age 30.


What is someone in that situation supposed to do?


Some cultures are just retarded too. Some people assume that they are supposed to grow up to be just like their parents. That's a very common theme in the human psyche.  If someone grows up in a culture where people eat sticks and live in trees. They're probably going to do the same.

Also, it sucks when some capitalist comes along and chops down all your trees because he has a little piece of paper and you don't.

Why does he have that piece of paper? Is it because his family has been living on that land for generations, or is it because he's in "the club" and they're not?

Then Nike builds a factory there.

The moral of this story is; It's Nike's fault. :smirk:

Anyways, I want to change my theory about poor people to Most poor people are poor because they don't have a good plan.


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 8 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5530629 - 04/18/06 07:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Sports are useless. There is no real value in being able to knock a ball around real good.

On the upside, I can't think how sports could oppress someone.


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Phred]
    #5532250 - 04/19/06 02:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Capitalism isn't dependent on cheap labor

Of course it is. The whole point of capitalism is not to pay the worker the true worth of his work. Otherwise the boss makes no profit.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Phred]
    #5533569 - 04/19/06 01:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'd like to point out that anyone who has a computer with internet access and enough free time to bitch on the internet about being poor is NOT poor.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5534046 - 04/19/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Capitalism isn't dependent on cheap labor

Of course it is. The whole point of capitalism is not to pay the worker the true worth of his work. Otherwise the boss makes no profit.




I must have missed that chapter.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 8 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5534089 - 04/19/06 03:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Don't you understand that selling something for more than you paid for it is theft?

That includes labor, silly. :3stooges:


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5534169 - 04/19/06 04:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Another chapter I missed. I gotta go back to school or somethin', this workin's makin' me stupit.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5536327 - 04/20/06 01:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Don't you understand that selling something for more than you paid for it is theft?

That includes labor, silly.


I thought taxation was theft?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 8 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5536586 - 04/20/06 06:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Breathing is theft.

Shitting is charity.


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTippinthru
contented

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,131
Loc: "The Garden"...
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5536882 - 04/20/06 09:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I'd like to point out that anyone who has a computer with internet access and enough free time to bitch on the internet about being poor is NOT poor.




:grin: LOL! Right On!


--------------------
Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time...
[


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebukkake
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5538534 - 04/20/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Sounds like the logic of a mentally incapacitated capitalist.

LOL!

The criteria of "poor" is arbitrary and subject to debate. Simply because I can afford to whine on the internet on Shroomery.org has very little to do with my socioeconomic status, especially in the United States of America, a country in which the wealthy practically live in a paradise, a welfare state for the wealthy where the rich dictate the laws and can easily conduct in tax evasion with their vast amount of lawyers who may exploit all sorts of loopholes.

For instance, in America - Earning $10,000 for a single person means one is not poor or unfit "ENOUGH" for public assistance. If one has ever lived in the United States earning that amount independently, my state especially, one knows living at $10,000 anually is impossible and insane.

Laissez-faire, capitalist, Phred, move to New Jersey with $10,000USD and see if you can survive here at our wondrous federal minimum wage of $5.15 an hour. I will be generous and grant you the state minimum wage of $6.10. I will still guarantee you would not live with your head above water. But by the logic I am presenting, the proposal would insist you not work. Just move here with 10k and see far you get by within a year. See if you can pay your rent, your utilities, your food. The intangibles such as car payments, credit card bills, and car insurance(highest in the country) are negotiable, at your convenience.


Edited by bukkake (04/20/06 05:58 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: bukkake]
    #5538753 - 04/20/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Sounds like the logic of a mentally incapacitated capitalist.

LOL!

The criteria of "poor" is arbitrary and subject to debate. Simply because I can afford to whine on the internet on Shroomery.org has very little to do with my socioeconomic status, especially in the United States of America, a country in which the wealthy practically live in a paradise, a welfare state for the wealthy where the rich dictate the laws and can easily conduct in tax evasion with their vast amount of lawyers who may exploit all sorts of loopholes.




For the impaired: the tax structure in the US is such that 1% pays a third of all federal taxes. 5% pays half and 10% pays 2/3. The top half pays vitually all taxes. The bottom half virtually none. Losers are definitely not exploited by the tax code.
Quote:



For instance, in America - Earning $10,000 for a single person means one is not poor or unfit "ENOUGH" for public assistance. If one has ever lived in the United States earning that amount independently, my state especially, one knows living at $10,000 anually is impossible and insane.





Minimum wage pays more than that for a 2,000 hr year. A single, non- disabled person better fucking work 50 40 hr weeks. Just like everybody else. As to your state, which I am somewhat familiar with, illegal workers get $100 cash plus lunch per day to mow lawns and blow leaves. 200 work days a year equates to $20,000 a year. Cash. Just what is your malfunction that you can't meet the wage of the most unskilled labor in your state?
Quote:



Laissez-faire, capitalist, Phred, move to New Jersey with $10,000USD and see if you can survive here at our wondrous federal minimum wage of $5.15 an hour. I will be generous and grant you the state minimum wage of $6.10. I will still guarantee you would not live with your head above water. But by the logic I am presenting, the proposal would insist you not work. Just move here with 10k and see far you get by within a year. See if you can pay your rent, your utilities, your food. The intangibles such as car payments, credit card bills, and car insurance(highest in the country) are negotiable, at your convenience.




You cut your own dick off with this stuff. Shut the fuck up and go to work. Minimum wage? You don't GET a car. Or cable . Or internet. Or credit cards. You get rent and food and electric. Or not. But nobody makes minimum wage in NJ. Nobody full time. Only the disabled. And they're subsidized.

You really are working on PinocchiAl delusion territory here. Maybe Oklahoma believes your bullshit about wages in NJ but I know better.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 8 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: bukkake]
    #5539319 - 04/20/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Shit, I can live pretty good on $10,000 a year.

If you can't afford to live in New Jersey then move.


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5539864 - 04/21/06 01:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

illegal workers get $100 cash plus lunch per day to mow lawns and blow leaves. 200 work days a year equates to $20,000 a year.

If this was even remotely true why do you think people would work for minimum wage?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5539872 - 04/21/06 01:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If you can't afford to live in New Jersey then move.

Some people have lives and are unable to move from state to state whenever they want.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebukkake
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5539996 - 04/21/06 02:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Just what is your malfunction that you can't meet the wage of the most unskilled labor in your state?



I meet above the minimum wage. My argument is, even at this wage, if I lived alone, it would be impossible to survive without hearing the landlord's knock at my door every other month, nevermind if I wanted to eat biweekly or have running hot water. Or maybe you would suggest I live at a shelter and withdraw from college or work full-time at a menial, despical job until I retire in my 60s? Perhaps two full-time jobs?

Quote:

Minimum wage? You don't GET a car. Or cable . Or internet. Or credit cards. You get rent and food and electric. Or not. But nobody makes minimum wage in NJ. Nobody full time. Only the disabled. And they're subsidized.



How does one go to work without a car? *Mandatory car insurance, by law. Cable, internet, credit cards are negotiable. Nobody in NJ makes minimum wage. They make $7 if they are lucky, and that is still far too low. $7 is still far too low in most, if not all states. The majority of the population agrees, but it appears the only thing the idiots in power ever agree on is giving themselves pay raises, not their subjects.

By your terrible argument, piss poor college students are shacking together in cramped, rented apartments because they are lazy or not working hard enough.

Quote:

If you can't afford to live in New Jersey then move.



"If a man doesn't like his job, he can just quit." Both are wonderful ideas in theory.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: bukkake]
    #5540190 - 04/21/06 06:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I meet above the minimum wage. My argument is, even at this wage, if I lived alone, it would be impossible to survive without hearing the landlord's knock at my door every other month, nevermind if I wanted to eat biweekly or have running hot water.




Key phrase there is "if I lived alone". Why do you believe sharing accomodations makes one "poor"? I lived with roommates or girlfriends for the first fifteen years after leaving school. Many people live at home for their first several years after entering the workforce. Hell, in Italy, the norm is for younguns to live with their parents until they get married. The average Italian male lives at home till he is past thirty.

Quote:

By your terrible argument, piss poor college students are shacking together in cramped, rented apartments because they are lazy or not working hard enough.




"Rented apartments"? Now you are saying one is poor if one rents? And yes, college students often meet the definition of "poor", duh. That's because they are not working full time. The point is that college students don't stay poor.

You have some really weird criteria as to what qualifies one to call himself "poor". None of my friends from high school went straight from school to living all by themselves in even a rented apartment, let alone an apartment they had bought. Not one. As a matter of fact, of the friends I knew, none of them went straight from college to living all by themselves either -- let alone an apartment they had bought.

Here's the way things work -- when one first enters the work force, one normally has little to no savings and (obviously) no work experience or job-specific skill set which would convince a first-time employer to pay very much, so accumulation of capital for the first few years isn't rapid. Knowing that to be the case, most people wisely opt not to spend more of their limited capital on accomodations than they absolutely have to. The majority of young workers choose to either stay at home with their parents for the first few years, or to share accomodations.




Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Phred]
    #5540231 - 04/21/06 07:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You have some really weird criteria as to what qualifies one to call himself "poor".

Can you state your criteria for being poor? All you seem to do is deny they exist.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Phred]
    #5540606 - 04/21/06 10:34 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I have no idea how you come across in an interview. All I can tell you is whenever I went for an interview, I took out my earring, trimmed my beard neatly, had a fairly recent haircut, wore clean and tidy clothes appropriate for the position I was interviewing for, and took it from there. Did I get turned down for some of the positions I applied for? Sure did. But I got others. I fail to see how you could be any less attractive a candidate than I was. You have everything I had, and a degree to boot.


Incidentally you sound incredibly out of date with all of this. Back in the 70's you could walk out of one well paid job in the morning and have another well paid job by the afternoon. After 20 years of free market economics that is certainly no longer the case.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRogues_Pierre
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 99
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5540729 - 04/21/06 11:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The US has the richest poor people in the world.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Rogues_Pierre]
    #5540745 - 04/21/06 11:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That's the after effect of workers fighting for their rights and better pay for the last hundred years tho.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRogues_Pierre
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 99
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5540824 - 04/21/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRogues_Pierre
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 99
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Rogues_Pierre]
    #5540854 - 04/21/06 12:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Only The Rich Pay Taxes
Top 50% of Wage Earners Pay 96.03% of Income Taxes
October 10, 2003

There is new data for 2001. The share of total income taxes paid by the top 1% fell to 33.89% from 37.42% in 2000. This is mainly because their income share (not just wages) fell from 20.81% to 17.53%. However, their average tax rate actually rose slightly from 27.45% to 27.50%.



This proves that it was not the tax cut that caused revenues from the rich to fall, but the recession and the stock market crash. In other words, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. If you are going to benefit from the rich paying more taxes, due to progressivity, on the upside, you are going to lose more revenue from these people on the downside. This is a good argument for reducing progressivity.

Think of it this way: less than four dollars out of every $100 paid in income taxes in the United States is paid by someone in the bottom 50% of wage earners. Are the top half millionaires? Noooo, more like "thousandaires." The top 50% were those individuals or couples filing jointly who earned $26,000 and up in 1999. (The top 1% earned $293,000-plus.) Americans who want to are continuing to improve their lives - and those who don't want to, aren't. Here are the wage earners in each category and the percentages they pay:

Top 5% pay 53.25% of all income taxes (Down from 2000 figure: 56.47%). The top 10% pay 64.89% (Down from 2000 figure: 67.33%). The top 25% pay 82.9% (Down from 2000 figure: 84.01%). The top 50% pay 96.03% (Down from 2000 figure: 96.09%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.97% of all income taxes. The top 1% is paying more than ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%! And who earns what? The top 1% earns 17.53 (2000: 20.81%) of all income. The top 5% earns 31.99 (2000: 35.30%). The top 10% earns 43.11% (2000: 46.01%); the top 25% earns 65.23% (2000: 67.15%), and the top 50% earns 86.19% (2000: 87.01%) of all the income.
The Rich Earned Their Dough, They Didn't Inherit It (Except Ted Kennedy)

The bottom 50% is paying a tiny bit of the taxes, so you can't give them much of a tax cut by definition. Yet these are the people to whom the Democrats claim to want to give tax cuts. Remember this the next time you hear the "tax cuts for the rich" business. Understand that the so-called rich are about the only ones paying taxes anymore.

I had a conversation with a woman who identified herself as Misty on Wednesday. She claimed to be an accountant, yet she seemed unaware of the Alternative Minimum Tax, which now ensures that everyone pays some taxes. AP reports that the AMT, "designed in 1969 to ensure 155 wealthy people paid some tax," will hit "about 2.6 million of us this year and 36 million by 2010." That's because the tax isn't indexed for inflation! If your salary today would've made you mega-rich in '69, that's how you're taxed.

Misty tried the old line that all wealth is inherited. Not true. John Weicher, as a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and a visiting scholar at the Federal Reserve Bank, wrote in his February 13, 1997 Washington Post Op-Ed, "Most of the rich have earned their wealth... Looking at the Fortune 400, quite a few even of the very richest people came from a standing start, while others inherited a small business and turned it into a giant corporation." What's happening here is not that "the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer." The numbers prove it.

I have made an executive decision as the owner and ultimate editor of this website that this table and these numbers stay on this website forever - or until next year's numbers come out. In order to get these facts, you have to see them each and every day. This story, along with a link to the IRS chart, will stay somewhere on the RushLimbaugh.com homepage so everyone can see and find these numbers at any time. It's crucial that people get this, so please, share it with a friend now!


http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/menu/top_50__of_wage_earners_pay_96_09__of_income_taxes.guest.html


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Rogues_Pierre]
    #5541180 - 04/21/06 02:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Why the rich should pay more tax

For more than a century it's been generally recognized that the best taxes (admittedly this is an expression reminiscent of "the most pleasant death" or "the funniest Family Circus cartoon") are progressive-- that is, proportionate to income.

Lately, however, it's become fashionable to question this. Various Republican leaders have trotted out the idea of a flat tax, meaning a fixed percentage of income tax levied on everyone. And in their hearts they may be anxious to emulate Maggie Thatcher's poll tax-- a single amount that everyone must pay.

Isn't that more fair? Shouldn't everyone pay the same amount?

In a word-- no. It's not more fair; it's appallingly unfair. Why? The rich should pay more taxes, because the rich get more from the government.

Consider defense, for example, which makes up 20% of the budget. Defending the country benefits everyone; but it benefits the rich more, because they have more to defend. It's the same principle as insurance: if you have a bigger house or a fancier car, you pay more to insure it.

Social security payments, which make up another 20% of the budget, are dependent on income-- if you've put more into the system, you get higher payments when you retire.

Investments in the nation's infrastructure-- transportation, education, research & development, energy, police subsidies, the courts, etc.-- again are more useful the more you have. The interstates and airports benefit interstate commerce and people who can travel, not ghetto dwellers. Energy is used disproportionately by the rich and by industry.

As for public education, the better public schools are the ones attended by the moderately well off. The very well off ship their offspring off to private schools; but it is their companies that benefit from a well-educated public. (If you don't think that's a benefit, go start up an engineering firm, or even a factory, in El Salvador. Or Watts.)

The FDIC and the S&L bailout obviously most benefit investors and large depositors. A neat example: a smooth operator bought a failing S&L for $350 million, then received $2 billion from the government to help resurrect it.

Beyond all this, the federal budget is top-heavy with corporate welfare. Counting tax breaks and expenditures, corporations and the rich snuffle up over $400 billion a year-- compare that to the $1400 budget, or the $116 billion spent on programs for the poor.

Where's all that money go? There's direct subsidies to agribusiness ($18 billion a year), to export companies, to maritime shippers, and to various industries-- airlines, nuclear power companies, timber companies, mining companies, automakers, drug companies. There's billions of dollars in military waste and fraud. And there's untold billions in tax credits, deductions, and loopholes. Accelerated depreciation alone, for instance, is estimated to cost the Treasury $37 billion a year-- billions more than the mortgage interest deduction. (Which itself benefits the people with the biggest mortgages. But we should encourage home ownership, shouldn't we? Well, Canada has no interest deduction, but has about the same rate of home ownership.)

How about social spending? Well, putting aside the merely religious consideration that the richest nation on the planet can well afford to lob a few farthings at the hungry, I'd argue that it's social spending-- the New Deal-- that's kept this country capitalistic. Tempting as it is for the rich to take all the wealth of a country, it's really not wise to leave the poor with no stake in the system, and every reason to agitate for imposing a new system of their own. Think of social spending as insurance against violent revolution-- and again, like any insurance, it's of most benefit to those with the biggest boodle.

http://www.zompist.com/richtax.htm


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebukkake
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Rogues_Pierre]
    #5541256 - 04/21/06 02:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Why do you believe sharing accomodations makes one "poor"?



That is the reason the majority of the time.

Quote:

"Rented apartments"? Now you are saying one is poor if one rents? And yes, college students often meet the definition of "poor", duh. That's because they are not working full time. The point is that college students don't stay poor.



One is not poor if one rents. You are advocating the poverty of future productive members of society. What are your thoughts on children born into poverty and the fact they are more likely to remain in poverty than those not born into poverty?

Quote:

You have some really weird criteria as to what qualifies one to call himself "poor".



Poor in the United States is an annual income of $9-10,000 dollars, a figure frighteningly low.

Quote:

Only The Rich Pay Taxes



http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/01/nation...agewanted=print

Rush must have been on one of his downers. Those are the wealthy who even bother to file.

And people are puzzled as to why the wealthy are becoming wealthier and the poor are becoming poorer. Poor people are not falling out of the sky.

http://www.cfo.com/printable/article.cfm/2986633

And why is income redistribution to your own citizens considered socialism, but tax breaks and corporate welfare handouts considered "subsidies?"


Edited by bukkake (04/21/06 02:45 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: bukkake]
    #5541301 - 04/21/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Newscorp Investments is Rupert Murdoch's main British holding company. Although the group's profits over the past 11 years add up to ?1.4 billion ($2.1 billion), it has paid no net British corporation tax.

RUPERT MURDOCH is an exceptional businessman in many ways - in the risks he has taken to build News Corporation, in the global reach of his empire, in the way he has changed the rules of the game for other media companies. But one of his most remarkable achievements is his tax bill. In keeping with his anti-statist philosophy, Mr Murdoch hands very little of his profits to governments.

Investigating News Corporation's tax affairs is made especially hard by accounting standards in Australia, where the company is incorporated. They are among the most lax of the developed economies. In America, too, many of the unlisted subsidiaries of Mr Murdoch's listed companies are incorporated in Delaware, where there is no obligation on them to file publicly available accounts.

In Britain, however, the laws require Mr Murdoch to publish at least a few facts. That has enabled The Economist to go through 11 years'-worth of financial results of the 101 British companies listed in the latest set of News Corporation accounts as subsidiaries of Mr Murdoch's main British holding company, Newscorp Investments, to find out how much tax they paid.

The answer is that since June 1987, although the group has made ?1.4 billion in profits, it has paid no net British corporation tax at all

http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/politics/economist_murdoch.htm


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5541528 - 04/21/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There shouldn't be any corporate taxes at all. Profits disbursed to shareholders are then taxed as shareholder income. Less wealthy individuals would thus pay a smaller percentage in taxes than they do now. Example:

Company X has 1,000 shares out. 1 investor owns 500 shares (big boy) and is in the top tax bracket (35%)
Another 2 investors own 200 shares each but one has other income that puts him in the top tax bracket (Fat Cat)while the other is an elderly retiree with no other income (10%) (Grandpa).
Finally, the last 100 shares are owned by 10 people who have 10 shares each and are in the middle tax bracket (20%). (Joes)

Company X makes a pretax profit of $10,000. Thats $10 per share. We now have two scenarios for taxes paid:

No corporate income tax;
Big Boy pays 35% of $5,000... $1,750 and nets... $3,250
Fat Cat pays 35% of $2,000.... $700 and nets... $1,300
Grandpa pays 10% of $2,000... $200 and nets... $1,800
Each Joe pays 20%of $100... $20 and nets... $80


Now lets see what happens when there is a 25% corporate tax. which knocks the profit down to $7,500;
Big Boy pays 35% of $3,750... $1,312 and nets... $2,438
Fat Cat pays 35% of $1,500... $525 and nets... $975
Grandpa pays 10% of $1,500 ... $150 and nets... $1,350
Each Joe pays 20%of $75... $15 and nets... $60

Looks fair right? Everybody takes the same hit. But I thought we were trying to be progressive. So let's look a little closer

Big Boys shares made a profit of $5,000 total taxes $2,562 or 51%
Fat Cats shares..................$2,000..............$1,125 or 56%
Grandpas shares..................$2,000................$650 or 32%
Joes shares........................$100................ $40 or 40%

Now look at the change in the ratios. Previously the really rich guy was paying the same rate as the Fat Cat. Now he pays less. Grandpa's tax rate is more than half of each of theirs whereas previously it was 2/7ths. Joe gets fucked too.

A little more math. I made the tax rates add up to hundred earlier just for this. The next set of tax rates add up to 180. thus the new progressive rates are:

51%/1.80 28% (35%)
56%/1.80 31% (35%)
32%/1.80 18% (10%)
40%/1.80 22% (20%)

Notice the compression. The bottom share went up, the top share went down. Corporate taxation partially negates the progressive structure of income taxes. Why are you lefty loons continuing to argue that corporations should pay more taxes when it has the exactly opposite effect that you want? People own corporations. Look at how Grandpa is getting cornholed. His tax rate almost doubled. Average shmuck pension funds are heavily invested in corporations. They in fact are the largest shareholder demographic.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebukkake
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5541797 - 04/21/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:smile2:

What? The system already in place is for the benefit of the wealthy, and you would like to make it worse and abolish the taxation system entirely or reform it more to the benefit of the rich? Do you despise your own country's high literacy rate?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: bukkake]
    #5541826 - 04/21/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Are you dyslexic?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebukkake
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5541847 - 04/21/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No, but I believe you may be. I found your post had very little to do with what Alex and I were talking about.

Dyslexic or a comedian. "There shouldn't be any corporate taxes at all."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Many Troops Dissatisfied, Iraq Poll Finds
( 1 2 all )
PsiloKitten 1,860 27 10/18/03 12:59 PM
by wingnutx
* Biting The Hand That Feeds
( 1 2 all )
gregorio 1,560 28 05/05/06 08:46 PM
by Konnrade
* Trump
( 1 2 3 4 ... 131 132 )
DividedQuantumM 76,247 2,635 01/19/21 07:19 AM
by STPLSD25
* Where do you stand on prenatal testing?
( 1 2 3 all )
LloydChristmas 2,446 49 03/04/12 05:08 AM
by fireworks_god
* Latest attempt to ban confederate flag
( 1 2 3 4 ... 24 25 )
Stonehenge 18,078 480 07/22/15 10:07 AM
by sweeper54
* London terrorist attack.
( 1 2 3 4 ... 26 27 )
Litto 7,676 528 07/07/17 09:51 AM
by The Ecstatic
* DISABLED WOMAN SET ABLAZE IN PARIS RIOTS!
( 1 2 all )
lonestar2004 1,665 35 11/05/05 10:10 AM
by RandalFlagg
* Feminism vs. Female Chauvinism and Male Bashing
( 1 2 all )
Veritas 5,169 26 04/03/07 10:29 PM
by gluke bastid

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
2,233 topic views. 2 members, 6 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.065 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 14 queries.