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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Vvellum]
    #5529464 - 04/18/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

bi0 writes:

Quote:

A teammate of mine was also a pitcher - he was excellent and went on to play in college. Eventually he was drafted to play in the minor leagues. He put his life into baseball and improving his skill in order to break into the major leagues. He traveled the country playing and sacrificed everything. He played AA and AAA ball for 5 years but was never called up despite a wide pitch selection and an impressive ERA and win/loss record. There was intense competition and other circumstances out of his range of control.

My friend do not choose to not play in the major leagues - he made his best attempt but the decisions of others prevented him from being called up.




And how does this relate to Baby_H's contention that the poor are poor due to choices they have made? Are you saying your friend was poor when he was playing AA and AAA ball? I'm not being facetious here, I have no idea what a pitcher in the AAA leagues makes.

Quote:

Yes, I have choosen to be poor at this time so that I can finish a graduate program. However, when I was finished with my bachelors and had zero desire to go back to the academic world, I tried very hard to make a decent living for several years. I did everything I could (besides relocate - I live in one of the largest cities in the world with a strong economy - there are plenty of jobs here - never knew anyone who worked out in the suburbs and lived in the city - I did know plenty of people that lived in the suburbs and worked in the city, though).




Chicago must have plenty of consumer electronics stores, car dealerships, furniture stores, etc. Do they never hire new people? Because it's no trick at all to make $30,000 a year or more as a commissioned sales rep at places like that. Hell, I was making closer to $40,000 than $30,000 a year selling stereo twenty-six years ago. It's true that I rarely took lunch breaks, and usually worked ten hour shifts six days a week, but that too was my choice. What was I going to do in my off hours anyway? Smoke dope and hang out in bars? Some of my colleagues put in the bare minimum the owner required, and even they did okay. They sure weren't "poor" by anyone's standards. $20,000 a year was damn good money for a young single guy in 1980.

And those are the kind of places even hungrier for decent managers than they are for salesmen. Managers of those kind of stores do well. Work a year or two as a sales rep, move up to manager, and away you go.

Quote:

At that time, it was not my choice to be poor - I was affected by the choice of others not to hire me - despite my best intentions, inititiative, decent education and references. I was simply overlooked in favor as others like my friend.




I have no idea how you come across in an interview. All I can tell you is whenever I went for an interview, I took out my earring, trimmed my beard neatly, had a fairly recent haircut, wore clean and tidy clothes appropriate for the position I was interviewing for, and took it from there. Did I get turned down for some of the positions I applied for? Sure did. But I got others. I fail to see how you could be any less attractive a candidate than I was. You have everything I had, and a degree to boot.

Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5529573 - 04/18/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

gluke_bastid writes:

Quote:

The result is that they make bigger profits when they sell the product at home.




Incorrect. The lower cost of labor is not realized as higher profit margin. At least not for any length of time to speak of. Instead businesses lower their prices in order to move more volume, thus gaining greater market share, thus putting the squeeze on their competitors.

Quote:

The poorer the bottom classes of the world are the richer the upper classes are.




That is an arbitrary statement with no foundation. Back it up.

Quote:

And yes, the term middle class does ring a bell. I remember when there was a middle class. Too bad it is shrinking, and more and more people are falling through the cracks into poverty as the ironically the cost of living is getting higher.




The middle class is shrinking? Source, please. Depends which direction it's shrinking in, too, of course. If more are moving from middle income to high income than are moving from middle to low, then there will of course be shrinkage of the middle -- but in the correct direction.

Quote:

I know a lot of people who don't want to be poor but are poor.




Baby_H may have phrased himself a tad ambiguously, but he never said all poor are poor because they want to be, rather they are poor because of the choices they make.

Quote:

So you're telling me that everyone is exactly where they want to be financially by choice?




There's an enormous difference between "wanting" to be at a certain financial position and making the necessary choices to get there. You can "want" with every fiber of your being to be hauling down 300k a year by the time you're fifty, but if you choose to work just forty hours a week and spend the money you do receive on booze, dope, cigarettes, a flashy car and closets full of designer clothes, the odds of you realizing that goal are slim to none.

Quote:

My Dad who is 68 and can't retire yet is there by choice?




Is your dad poor?

Quote:

Every CEO who goes bankrupt does so by choice?




If he bankrupted his own company, then yes, he made bad choices. He could have sold it to someone else earlier, folded it before it lost too much money, merged with another company, etc. I lost tens of thousands of dollars of my own money in a business venture once. It was entirely due to the decisions I made. I could have walked away down just a few thousand if I had made different decisions.

Quote:

Pepsi is number two to Coke by choice?




You're saying Pepsi is a "poor" company? Uh huh.

Quote:

What does this have to do with the fact that capitalism is dependent upon cheap labor?




Capitalism isn't dependent on cheap labor. It is merely dependent on the participants being left free to make their own uncoerced choices.

Quote:

I am suggesting that in today's job market there is a lot of labor that people are willing to do only because there aren't better jobs out there for them.




Correct. Please explain to us why this means poor people don't stay poor because of the choices they make.

Quote:

Many people have to spend their entire lives working jobs in which they barely get by and aren't able to save money. I don't think they are all their by choice.




People with physical, psychological, and mental handicaps? Sure. Normal folks? Nope. There are very few normal folks who couldn't get a job sufficient to keep them above the poverty level.

Quote:

I do recognize what you are saying though, that anyone has a choice of how far they want to push themselves in terms of financial success. I just don't agree with you that everyone can be relatively succesfull...




baby_H is not talking about being "relatively successful", if I haven't misread him. He's talking about living in poverty.

Quote:

...in fact I think the economy and society in general depends on unsuccesfull people to act as worker ants who do the cheap labor that make the rest of us rich.




That's the flaw in your thinking. No such dependency exists. At least, not if you're talking about America.




Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Vvellum]
    #5530285 - 04/18/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
I see where you are coming from, but I do not put much stock into such black/white simplistic analysis.

I used to play baseball in high school. I was a pitcher. A teammate of mine was also a pitcher - he was excellent and went on to play in college. Eventually he was drafted to play in the minor leagues. He put his life into baseball and improving his skill in order to break into the major leagues. He traveled the country playing and sacrificed everything. He played AA and AAA ball for 5 years but was never called up despite a wide pitch selection and an impressive ERA and win/loss record. There was intense competition and other circumstances out of his range of control.

My friend do not choose to not play in the major leagues - he made his best attempt but the decisions of others prevented him from being called up.

Yes, I have choosen to be poor at this time so that I can finish a graduate program. However, when I was finished with my bachelors and had zero desire to go back to the academic world, I tried very hard to make a decent living for several years. I did everything I could (besides relocate - I live in one of the largest cities in the world with a strong economy - there are plenty of jobs here - never knew anyone who worked out in the suburbs and lived in the city - I did know plenty of people that lived in the suburbs and worked in the city, though). At that time, it was not my choice to be poor - I was affected by the choice of others not to hire me - despite my best intentions, inititiative, decent education and references. I was simply overlooked in favor as others like my friend.




Your friend wasn't good enough. Sports, the ultimate meritocracy.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Phred]
    #5530618 - 04/18/06 07:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think most people realize that they are choosing to be less wealthy. Bill Gates is choosing to be less wealthy in some ways. I'm sure there are some decisions he could have made that would have resulted in him being possibly much much more wealthy than he is today.

But even Bill Gates also is as wealthy today partially because of luck. Both are really factors. It does take more than just perserverence.

Specifically, a lack of bad luck helps to keep one above the poverty line.

Also, it should be pointed out that the poverty line, and the misery line are not the same line. Not all rich people are happy, and not all poor people are unhappy.

Some poor people are taken advantage of by some rich people sometimes. It happens. You really can't deny it. Of course, poor people take advantage of rich people too.

Whaddayagonnadoo? :rolleyes:

Now I'm talking mostly within America, mind you. Globally, I kind of agree with the people who say Capitalism is exploitation... just kind of though.

I mean honestly, imagine for a moment you're a 10 year old Hatian girl. Now formulate a plan to become middle class by age 30.


What is someone in that situation supposed to do?


Some cultures are just retarded too. Some people assume that they are supposed to grow up to be just like their parents. That's a very common theme in the human psyche.  If someone grows up in a culture where people eat sticks and live in trees. They're probably going to do the same.

Also, it sucks when some capitalist comes along and chops down all your trees because he has a little piece of paper and you don't.

Why does he have that piece of paper? Is it because his family has been living on that land for generations, or is it because he's in "the club" and they're not?

Then Nike builds a factory there.

The moral of this story is; It's Nike's fault. :smirk:

Anyways, I want to change my theory about poor people to Most poor people are poor because they don't have a good plan.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5530629 - 04/18/06 07:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Sports are useless. There is no real value in being able to knock a ball around real good.

On the upside, I can't think how sports could oppress someone.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Phred]
    #5532250 - 04/19/06 02:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Capitalism isn't dependent on cheap labor

Of course it is. The whole point of capitalism is not to pay the worker the true worth of his work. Otherwise the boss makes no profit.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Phred]
    #5533569 - 04/19/06 01:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'd like to point out that anyone who has a computer with internet access and enough free time to bitch on the internet about being poor is NOT poor.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5534046 - 04/19/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Capitalism isn't dependent on cheap labor

Of course it is. The whole point of capitalism is not to pay the worker the true worth of his work. Otherwise the boss makes no profit.




I must have missed that chapter.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5534089 - 04/19/06 03:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Don't you understand that selling something for more than you paid for it is theft?

That includes labor, silly. :3stooges:


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Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5534169 - 04/19/06 04:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Another chapter I missed. I gotta go back to school or somethin', this workin's makin' me stupit.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5536327 - 04/20/06 01:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Don't you understand that selling something for more than you paid for it is theft?

That includes labor, silly.


I thought taxation was theft?


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5536586 - 04/20/06 06:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Breathing is theft.

Shitting is charity.


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Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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InvisibleTippinthru
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5536882 - 04/20/06 09:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I'd like to point out that anyone who has a computer with internet access and enough free time to bitch on the internet about being poor is NOT poor.




:grin: LOL! Right On!


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Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time...
[


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5538534 - 04/20/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Sounds like the logic of a mentally incapacitated capitalist.

LOL!

The criteria of "poor" is arbitrary and subject to debate. Simply because I can afford to whine on the internet on Shroomery.org has very little to do with my socioeconomic status, especially in the United States of America, a country in which the wealthy practically live in a paradise, a welfare state for the wealthy where the rich dictate the laws and can easily conduct in tax evasion with their vast amount of lawyers who may exploit all sorts of loopholes.

For instance, in America - Earning $10,000 for a single person means one is not poor or unfit "ENOUGH" for public assistance. If one has ever lived in the United States earning that amount independently, my state especially, one knows living at $10,000 anually is impossible and insane.

Laissez-faire, capitalist, Phred, move to New Jersey with $10,000USD and see if you can survive here at our wondrous federal minimum wage of $5.15 an hour. I will be generous and grant you the state minimum wage of $6.10. I will still guarantee you would not live with your head above water. But by the logic I am presenting, the proposal would insist you not work. Just move here with 10k and see far you get by within a year. See if you can pay your rent, your utilities, your food. The intangibles such as car payments, credit card bills, and car insurance(highest in the country) are negotiable, at your convenience.


Edited by bukkake (04/20/06 05:58 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: bukkake]
    #5538753 - 04/20/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Sounds like the logic of a mentally incapacitated capitalist.

LOL!

The criteria of "poor" is arbitrary and subject to debate. Simply because I can afford to whine on the internet on Shroomery.org has very little to do with my socioeconomic status, especially in the United States of America, a country in which the wealthy practically live in a paradise, a welfare state for the wealthy where the rich dictate the laws and can easily conduct in tax evasion with their vast amount of lawyers who may exploit all sorts of loopholes.




For the impaired: the tax structure in the US is such that 1% pays a third of all federal taxes. 5% pays half and 10% pays 2/3. The top half pays vitually all taxes. The bottom half virtually none. Losers are definitely not exploited by the tax code.
Quote:



For instance, in America - Earning $10,000 for a single person means one is not poor or unfit "ENOUGH" for public assistance. If one has ever lived in the United States earning that amount independently, my state especially, one knows living at $10,000 anually is impossible and insane.





Minimum wage pays more than that for a 2,000 hr year. A single, non- disabled person better fucking work 50 40 hr weeks. Just like everybody else. As to your state, which I am somewhat familiar with, illegal workers get $100 cash plus lunch per day to mow lawns and blow leaves. 200 work days a year equates to $20,000 a year. Cash. Just what is your malfunction that you can't meet the wage of the most unskilled labor in your state?
Quote:



Laissez-faire, capitalist, Phred, move to New Jersey with $10,000USD and see if you can survive here at our wondrous federal minimum wage of $5.15 an hour. I will be generous and grant you the state minimum wage of $6.10. I will still guarantee you would not live with your head above water. But by the logic I am presenting, the proposal would insist you not work. Just move here with 10k and see far you get by within a year. See if you can pay your rent, your utilities, your food. The intangibles such as car payments, credit card bills, and car insurance(highest in the country) are negotiable, at your convenience.




You cut your own dick off with this stuff. Shut the fuck up and go to work. Minimum wage? You don't GET a car. Or cable . Or internet. Or credit cards. You get rent and food and electric. Or not. But nobody makes minimum wage in NJ. Nobody full time. Only the disabled. And they're subsidized.

You really are working on PinocchiAl delusion territory here. Maybe Oklahoma believes your bullshit about wages in NJ but I know better.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: bukkake]
    #5539319 - 04/20/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Shit, I can live pretty good on $10,000 a year.

If you can't afford to live in New Jersey then move.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5539864 - 04/21/06 01:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

illegal workers get $100 cash plus lunch per day to mow lawns and blow leaves. 200 work days a year equates to $20,000 a year.

If this was even remotely true why do you think people would work for minimum wage?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5539872 - 04/21/06 01:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If you can't afford to live in New Jersey then move.

Some people have lives and are unable to move from state to state whenever they want.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5539996 - 04/21/06 02:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Just what is your malfunction that you can't meet the wage of the most unskilled labor in your state?



I meet above the minimum wage. My argument is, even at this wage, if I lived alone, it would be impossible to survive without hearing the landlord's knock at my door every other month, nevermind if I wanted to eat biweekly or have running hot water. Or maybe you would suggest I live at a shelter and withdraw from college or work full-time at a menial, despical job until I retire in my 60s? Perhaps two full-time jobs?

Quote:

Minimum wage? You don't GET a car. Or cable . Or internet. Or credit cards. You get rent and food and electric. Or not. But nobody makes minimum wage in NJ. Nobody full time. Only the disabled. And they're subsidized.



How does one go to work without a car? *Mandatory car insurance, by law. Cable, internet, credit cards are negotiable. Nobody in NJ makes minimum wage. They make $7 if they are lucky, and that is still far too low. $7 is still far too low in most, if not all states. The majority of the population agrees, but it appears the only thing the idiots in power ever agree on is giving themselves pay raises, not their subjects.

By your terrible argument, piss poor college students are shacking together in cramped, rented apartments because they are lazy or not working hard enough.

Quote:

If you can't afford to live in New Jersey then move.



"If a man doesn't like his job, he can just quit." Both are wonderful ideas in theory.


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OfflinePhred
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Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: bukkake]
    #5540190 - 04/21/06 06:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I meet above the minimum wage. My argument is, even at this wage, if I lived alone, it would be impossible to survive without hearing the landlord's knock at my door every other month, nevermind if I wanted to eat biweekly or have running hot water.




Key phrase there is "if I lived alone". Why do you believe sharing accomodations makes one "poor"? I lived with roommates or girlfriends for the first fifteen years after leaving school. Many people live at home for their first several years after entering the workforce. Hell, in Italy, the norm is for younguns to live with their parents until they get married. The average Italian male lives at home till he is past thirty.

Quote:

By your terrible argument, piss poor college students are shacking together in cramped, rented apartments because they are lazy or not working hard enough.




"Rented apartments"? Now you are saying one is poor if one rents? And yes, college students often meet the definition of "poor", duh. That's because they are not working full time. The point is that college students don't stay poor.

You have some really weird criteria as to what qualifies one to call himself "poor". None of my friends from high school went straight from school to living all by themselves in even a rented apartment, let alone an apartment they had bought. Not one. As a matter of fact, of the friends I knew, none of them went straight from college to living all by themselves either -- let alone an apartment they had bought.

Here's the way things work -- when one first enters the work force, one normally has little to no savings and (obviously) no work experience or job-specific skill set which would convince a first-time employer to pay very much, so accumulation of capital for the first few years isn't rapid. Knowing that to be the case, most people wisely opt not to spend more of their limited capital on accomodations than they absolutely have to. The majority of young workers choose to either stay at home with their parents for the first few years, or to share accomodations.




Phred


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