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Invisibledaussaulit
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: afoaf]
    #5523347 - 04/17/06 01:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:it's not like anything is actually made in mexico.



Ford, GM, Chevrolet, Volkswagon.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5523651 - 04/17/06 07:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Here's a fact for ya.

In America most poor people are poor because they choose to be. Either that or they are mentally handicapped somehow.

Actually, most poor people in America do have a mental handicap. They call it their "culture".


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5523781 - 04/17/06 08:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

In America most poor people are poor because they choose to be. Either that or they are mentally handicapped somehow ... They call it their "culture".




yes, but really, that "culture" is a trendy version of a counter-culture, both which stem (even if by resistance) from actual issues, like minimum wage not being (reasonable) enough to sustain an actual family, that doesnt cheat on taxes or make any undeclared income.  And minimum wage is an accurate model for the rest of the ladder, all the way to the top (well, at least to that glass ceiling  :rolleyes:)

the biggest businesses know that the average guy cant afford to buy all of this shit they are selling us, even with all these payment plans and etc.  if we were to remove just a few of the intrusive methods of advertisement, and changed the laws on credit cards / loans in favor to the customers, than lots of problems would begin to dissolve.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5523849 - 04/17/06 09:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

In America most poor people are poor because they choose to be. Either that or they are mentally handicapped somehow.




I am an American and I am considered poor by annual income standards. I am poor because I cannot find a better paying job despite my excellent education and background and initiative to obtain higher employment. I had no choice but to take a much lesser paying job in order to feed myself, pay rent, pay bills, and all things necessary for living independently. Unlike rich folk, I have no one that could help me out nor am I interested in taking hand-outs from anyone. I have too much pride and I do not want to owe anyone.

To say that I am choosing to be poor or that I am caught in the situation that I am in because I am mentally handicapped, is extremely ignorant of you. I am guessing you've never faced these challenges before, otherwise you would not be making such asinine statements as these.

:rolleyes:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: kotik]
    #5524192 - 04/17/06 10:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
the biggest businesses know that the average guy cant afford to buy all of this shit they are selling us, even with all these payment plans and etc. if we were to remove just a few of the intrusive methods of advertisement, and changed the laws on credit cards / loans in favor to the customers, than lots of problems would begin to dissolve.




That is absurd. People chose what they buy. If they can't afford something and they buy it anyways, that is not the company's fault; it is the fault of the consumer. People need to have a little self-responsibility.


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Vvellum]
    #5524220 - 04/17/06 10:45 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

How old are you? Virtually everyone who works is considered "poor" by the standard government measures for the first several years they are working, simply because it's rare to land a forty grand a year job right out of the box. Odds are you won't remain "poor" much longer.

What is your educational background? When you say you can't find a higher-paying job, is that because you aren't interested in taking a job outside your chosen field, for example? Or that you are not willing to relocate?

I left home with a high school diploma and around a hundred dollars. For the first few years of my working career I was definitely "poor" by any standard government measure. Five years later I no longer fit that definition, and five years after that (age 28) I was doing pretty damn well for myself. If I can do it, you can do it.



Phred


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Phred]
    #5524303 - 04/17/06 11:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I am in my mid-to-late 20s.

Quote:

Virtually everyone who works is considered "poor" by the standard government measures for the first several years they are working, simply because it's rare to land a forty grand a year job right out of the box. Odds are you won't remain "poor" much longer.




Hopefully that is the case.

Quote:

What is your educational background?




Bachelors and currently working a Masters degree.

Quote:

When you say you can't find a higher-paying job, is that because you aren't interested in taking a job outside your chosen field, for example? Or that you are not willing to relocate?




Unable to relocate due to school and lease. Unable to commute outside of the city because I do not drive. I regularly apply to jobs but there is so much competition (everyone has a bachelors degree - it is the new high school diploma) and my availability isnt the easiest to manage due to my education commitments.

I know I will not be poor forever because I am resourceful, independent, and hard-working - but I do not see myself making money for the next several years. Until then I am poor - not out of my own volition nor out of some sort of handicap. I do see a light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel, but I am not going to kid myself - it'll be at least 2 or 3 years more (10+ years since I became independent).


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Invisibleafoaf
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: daussaulit]
    #5524355 - 04/17/06 11:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

ah, yes, I stand corrected.

good thing I don't drive an Exploder.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Vvellum]
    #5524387 - 04/17/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You don't sound poor to me.

What valuable services can you provide with your degree(s)? Did you actually learn a valuable skill in college, or do you have one of those useless degrees like music or art?

Maybe Chicago isn't the best place for you to live financially speaking.

Have you considered your self-employment options?


--------------------
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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5524723 - 04/17/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Here's a fact for ya.

In America most poor people are poor because they choose to be. Either that or they are mentally handicapped somehow.

Actually, most poor people in America do have a mental handicap. They call it their "culture".




Oh come on, I know you're smarter than this. Most people are poor because they choose to be? So you're telling me that its possible to have an capitalist economic system in which everyone is rich? Who would build houses, who would clean windows, who would fry burgers?

For rich people to exist there needs to be a large number of poor people that they make money off of. Thats part of the way it works. Not everyone can be rich because there is only so much capital out there.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Vvellum]
    #5525076 - 04/17/06 01:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

bi0 writes:

Quote:

Unable to relocate due to school and lease. Unable to commute outside of the city because I do not drive. I regularly apply to jobs but there is so much competition (everyone has a bachelors degree - it is the new high school diploma) and my availability isnt the easiest to manage due to my education commitments.




You prove Baby_H's point. You are poor (at this moment) because of choices you have made. If you valued immediate higher income over deferred (hopefully even higher) income, you'd stop your studies, thus improving your availability, sublet your place, learn to drive, move elsewhere and get a better paying job. Or even stay where you are and get a higher paying job. They're out there.

Instead, you have chosen (wisely, in my opinion) to do the "starving student" routine now so you can be better off down the road with a Master's degree. Always assuming of course the Masters degree is in a field valuable to potential high-paying employers.

Quote:

I know I will not be poor forever because I am resourceful, independent, and hard-working - but I do not see myself making money for the next several years. Until then I am poor - not out of my own volition nor out of some sort of handicap.




So sorry, but you are poor at the moment by your own volition. You didn't have to pursue a Masters. You did that volitionally. For that matter you didn't have to even get a Bachelors. You did that out of your own volition, too.

Again, I am not saying you are following an incorrect path. I'm just saying that if you had started working immediately out of high school, you would likely not be poor at this moment. That's the choice I made -- stop school and get some coin together immediately. Friends of mine went the other route -- be poor for another four or five years, then enter the workforce at a higher salary than I did. The thing is, in my case (and yes, I know it doesn't always work out that way) by the time my friends were done with their schooling, I was making an annual income as good as (and in many cases better than) they were able to land for their first job, plus I had five years of savings to boot. Did some of them pass me some years down the road, to the point where their net worth was greater than mine? Sure. I'm not saying my way of doing things yields the greatest net worth forty or fifty years down the road. But it's a faster way to get out of the "poor" category at a younger age.



Phred


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5525106 - 04/17/06 01:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

gluke_bastid writes:

Quote:

Oh come on, I know you're smarter than this. Most people are poor because they choose to be? So you're telling me that its possible to have an capitalist economic system in which everyone is rich? Who would build houses, who would clean windows, who would fry burgers?




No, he's not saying that. Not everyone need be "rich" in order for there to be very few "poor" (and for those who are poor to remain so only temporarily). Besides, house builders make a pretty decent living. And how many burger flippers stay burger flippers for more than a few years? Not very many.

Quote:

For rich people to exist there needs to be a large number of poor people that they make money off of.




That's about as wrongheaded a statement as it is possible to make. Poor people don't have any money to hand over to the rich. That's why they call them "poor", duh. Tough to make money off people who have none.

Quote:

Thats part of the way it works. Not everyone can be rich because there is only so much capital out there.




Wealth is not static. Wealth is created by productive human effort and as such it increases constantly. And once again, not everyone need be "rich" in order for there to be no (or next to no) "poor". Does the concept "middle class" ring a bell?




Phred


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5525162 - 04/17/06 01:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Depends on what you mean by "rich" and "poor". If you're going to consider yourself poor as long as there is someone richer than you, then yes you're always going to be poor.

And it will still be your choice.

As for your questions, I'll answer them with more questions.

Who washes your clothes? Who bathes your dog? Who wipes your ass? People can do things for themselves. How much house do you really need? is 300 sq/ft enough? 1000? 10,000?

Are you suggesting that people who build houses necessarily need to be poor? Are you suggesting that in order to be not poor you have to be rich enough not to have to work?

The only way we would ever achieve that kind of society would be if there were some magical kind of technology like the replicators on Star Trek and everybody could have anything they wanted for free.

In this reality not everyone can have as much stuff as Bill Gates. There aren't enough resources to support that kind of world, but then again there aren't enough resources to sustain the world we currently live in either.

If you have enough food, water, shelter and medicine to get by then you are not poor. You might be dissatisfied, but not poor.

Congrats on your 666th post BTW.


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Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5526500 - 04/17/06 07:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tippinthru said:
...........Don't forget they pay taxes too!..............;)



Not always. I know lots of farmers who do not take out taxes on there illegals.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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InvisibleTippinthru
contented

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,131
Loc: "The Garden"...
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5528139 - 04/18/06 01:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Whether the Employers take out taxes or not...they shop and buy groceries and buy items that are taxed. May 1st isn't about being rich or poor, it's about Immigration Reform! It's about immigrants, not just Latinos!  :wexican:


--------------------
Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time...
[


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Phred]
    #5528193 - 04/18/06 02:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That's about as wrongheaded a statement as it is possible to make. Poor people don't have any money to hand over to the rich. That's why they call them "poor", duh. Tough to make money off people who have none.


This is about as wrongheaded as you can get. Why do you think business are moving to third world countries with lots of poor people? To lose money? It's because you can employ poor people for less money and thus make bigger profits. Doh!


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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Phred]
    #5528851 - 04/18/06 10:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I see where you are coming from, but I do not put much stock into such black/white simplistic analysis.

I used to play baseball in high school. I was a pitcher. A teammate of mine was also a pitcher - he was excellent and went on to play in college. Eventually he was drafted to play in the minor leagues. He put his life into baseball and improving his skill in order to break into the major leagues. He traveled the country playing and sacrificed everything. He played AA and AAA ball for 5 years but was never called up despite a wide pitch selection and an impressive ERA and win/loss record. There was intense competition and other circumstances out of his range of control.

My friend do not choose to not play in the major leagues - he made his best attempt but the decisions of others prevented him from being called up.

Yes, I have choosen to be poor at this time so that I can finish a graduate program. However, when I was finished with my bachelors and had zero desire to go back to the academic world, I tried very hard to make a decent living for several years. I did everything I could (besides relocate - I live in one of the largest cities in the world with a strong economy - there are plenty of jobs here - never knew anyone who worked out in the suburbs and lived in the city - I did know plenty of people that lived in the suburbs and worked in the city, though). At that time, it was not my choice to be poor - I was affected by the choice of others not to hire me - despite my best intentions, inititiative, decent education and references. I was simply overlooked in favor as others like my friend.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Vvellum]
    #5528928 - 04/18/06 10:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I see where you are coming from, but I do not put much stock into such black/white simplistic analysis.


Oh come on, you can be a billionaire too if you only "work hard"  :smirk:


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Alex213]
    #5528941 - 04/18/06 10:54 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
That's about as wrongheaded a statement as it is possible to make. Poor people don't have any money to hand over to the rich. That's why they call them "poor", duh. Tough to make money off people who have none.


This is about as wrongheaded as you can get. Why do you think business are moving to third world countries with lots of poor people? To lose money? It's because you can employ poor people for less money and thus make bigger profits. Doh!




Precisely. I'm not a communist but I wholeheartedly agree with Marx's assertion that capitalism is all about exploitation. Factory owners have been moving overseas for decades where they can build factories cheaper and employ labor cheaper. The result is that they make bigger profits when they sell the product at home. The poorer the bottom classes of the world are the richer the upper classes are.

And yes, the term middle class does ring a bell. I remember when there was a middle class. Too bad it is shrinking, and more and more people are falling through the cracks into poverty as the ironically the cost of living is getting higher.

I know a lot of people who don't want to be poor but are poor. Come to Baltimore and you will see what I mean. We are a broke ass city.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Nothing gringo on May 1 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5528972 - 04/18/06 11:07 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)


Depends on what you mean by "rich" and "poor". If you're going to consider yourself poor as long as there is someone richer than you, then yes you're always going to be poor.

And it will still be your choice.

So you're telling me that everyone is exactly where they want to be financially by choice? Every homeless person is homeless by choice? My Dad who is 68 and can't retire yet is there by choice? Every CEO who goes bankrupt does so by choice? Pepsi is number two to Coke by choice?

Who washes your clothes?  Who bathes your dog?  Who wipes your ass? People can do things for themselves. How much house do you really need? is 300 sq/ft enough? 1000? 10,000?

What does this have to do with the fact that capitalism is dependent upon cheap labor?

Are you suggesting that people who build houses necessarily need to be poor? Are you suggesting that in order to be not poor you have to be rich enough not to have to work?

I would never suggest either of those things. I am suggesting that in today's job market there is a lot of labor that people are willing to do only because there aren't better jobs out there for them. I see the job market as being very competitive and limited. Many people have to spend their entire lives working jobs in which they barely get by and aren't able to save money. I don't think they are all their by choice.

I do recognize what you are saying though, that anyone has a choice of how far they want to push themselves in terms of financial success. I just don't agree with you that everyone can be relatively succesfull, in fact I think the economy and society in general depends on unsuccesfull people to act as worker ants who do the cheap labor that make the rest of us rich.

If you have enough food, water, shelter and medicine to get by then you are not poor. You might be dissatisfied, but not poor.

This is not my definition of poor. I would define not being poor as getting by plus being able to save money and afford occasional luxuries.

Congrats on your 666th post BTW.

thanks, it's been a long time coming  :grin:


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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