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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Pride: The Crown of Virtues
    #5514388 - 04/13/06 11:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

From dictionary.com:

Humility:

n.
The quality or condition of being humble.


Humble:

adj.
1) Marked by meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit; not arrogant or prideful.
2) Showing deferential or submissive respect: a humble apology.
3) Low in rank, quality, or station; unpretentious or lowly: a humble cottage.

tr.v.
1) To curtail or destroy the pride of; humiliate.
2) To cause to be meek or modest in spirit.
3) To give a lower condition or station to; abase. See Synonyms at degrade


Humility is claimed to be a moral virtue in certain ethical systems. Humility is the quality or condition of being meek and submissive. Since virtues are guides to actions, humility as a virtue asks that you act pathetic, lowly, and ignoble. True humility requires you to believe it.

Humility is the opposite of pride. As opposed to the crown of virtues, humility is the poison of virtues. Every act of virtue is cause for scorn, because you are attempting to be good. Instead of accepting yourself as a worm, you are trying to be human. This is a great sin in many ethical systems. If you are happy about who you are, you will want to live for yourself. This is clearly unacceptable in ethical systems, such as altruism, where you are to sacrifice yourself for others. Pride gets in the way of sacrifice. Only humility serves that end.

Humility is hatred of oneself. It is the ultimate self-sacrifice. It is the sacrifice of one's ego. Raising humility to the status of a virtue is the ultimate inversion of morality. It is twisting what should be one's guide to life into a force bent on destroying one's life. By claiming it a virtue, your integrity is turned against you, and your purpose and strength are used to destroy yourself.


Now let's look at Pride:

Dictionary.com:

n.
1) A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.
2) Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.

"Pride, then, seems to be a sort of crown of the virtues; for it makes them greater, and it is not found without them."
Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, c. 350 B.C.

Pride is the virtue of respecting oneself. It is a human need to think highly of oneself. Without it, one would have no reason to trust one's ability to live. One would have no reason to accept that one's life is worthy of living.

Pride is often confused with arrogance. Both seem to evaluate oneself highly. The difference is fundamental, though. Pride is a rational evaluation of oneself. Arrogance is not. Pride requires one to think highly of one's accomplishments and abilities. But the accomplishments and abilities need to be worthy of the praise. Without them matching, the false pride will lead to self-hate when reality undermines the attempted illusion. If one's abilities are not as good as one would like to pretend, it is just a matter of time before they are genuinely tested, and the results will destroy the flimsy self-esteem.

True pride, on the other hand, is rational. It has the secondary consequence of making an person want to improve himself in order to feel greater pride. This secondary effect, though, is not the reason for accepting pride as a virtue. Pride is virtuous because one needs it to live. It is the pillar the supports one's mind. Without it, one would constantly question one's ability to make rational judgments. It would undercut reason, man's primary means of survival.


You hear the mystics all the time raving about how morally superior it is to be meek, submissive, read: humble read: humility.
In reality, there is not ever any earthly reason to live your life like some meek animal, ready to sacrifice oneself at the mercy of another's whims, of another's laziness, of another's malevolence.
You will hear mystics refer to certain communities that hold humility as a virtue, and imply that other communities who hold selfishness, pride and individualism as virtues are evildoers of mankind. Of course, all one needs to do is look at the ultimate repercussions, the ultimate consequences of both sides and see for themselves who are truly the achievers, the builders, the advancers of mankind as we know it.

Look at what has become one of the greatest icons of our American, Capitalist and Individualist society: Bill Gates.
I'm most certainly glad Bill Gates didn't buy into any of that mystic-garbage about humility being morally superior to pride! Bill Gates is admired and criticized by many for his aggressive and competitive approach to business, but look at the phenomenal amount of philanthropic contribution to mankind he has contributed through his nearly unfathomable wealth alone. Some experts even predict that Gates will ultimately be known more for what he's doing to improve world health than for what he does in the computer industry.

Next time you hear a mystic espouse some contradictory, malevolent tripe of humility being morally superior to pride, ask yourself: What would the world be like without the Gates, the Vanderbilts, the Carnegies, the Rockefellers, the Buffets, the Davisons, the Trumps, the Allens, the Dells, the Soros... Ask yourself, what would you accomplish in your life, if you were to destroy the crown of your very virtues? What would your life be like, if you were to be chained down by the solidified weight of meekness, submissivness and humility, like a ball and chain, where the wings of your mind should've flourished?

You only have one brain. You only have one body. You only have one life, and it is an end in itself. What comes from accepting this?

With that said, I'm off to return to my life of productivity and achievement.


:hatsoff:


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5514491 - 04/14/06 12:15 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Bill gates has pride in his work. But he is also humble because even though he is happy to have wealth, he would rather not consider himself before others so he gives it away.

Am I wrong? Isn't it possible to be proud, but humble?

You can be proud and use that as strength to acheive. Then you can also be humble and accept that you are simply a man doing what he does. Paradox or bad logic? =x


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5514563 - 04/14/06 12:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It's true that there can be cases whereby One has conscientously practiced industriousness & thriftiness and as a result, has proudly achieved wealth - yet, feels the irrational need to be apologetic for achieving such greatness and as a result, may often compulsively give away his wealth. In other words, yes, it is possible for One to have conflicting dynamics within their ethical premises.

But in reality, One can be quite prideful, selfish and rational in their motives for philanthropy. Such is often the case with businesses. "Do Good? Do Business? No, Do Both!" Doing good for society helps companies do well for themselves.


I'm reminded of why Batman Begins is one of my favorite movies of all time.
Batman is the antithesis of your entire sick, parasitical, loot&leech-the-productive, blame-the-victim-not-the-criminal, sacrifice-the-individual-to-the-collective-gang view of human nature and society.

In the form of a mythic pop hero, Batman Begins presents a heroic, self-assertive and unapologetic view of human potential, individual self-responsibility and larger-than-life entrepreneurship. Batman is a fantasy archetype of heroic American individualism.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (04/14/06 01:03 AM)


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5514604 - 04/14/06 01:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Great Post Skorpivo
Be Proud : )


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5514620 - 04/14/06 01:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think the only thing more worthless than giving worth to external things, is placing value and worth (or lack of) upon yourself in the abstract sense.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5514969 - 04/14/06 07:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
I think the only thing more worthless than giving worth to external things, is placing value and worth (or lack of) upon yourself in the abstract sense.




Why yes, the fact that we give meaning to the world and to ourselves is worthless. :rolleyes:

Attributing worth is worthless? Now that makes a lot of sense. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5515119 - 04/14/06 08:35 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Pride leads one to be arrogant and post lots of meaningless threads about how wrong other people are.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5515348 - 04/14/06 09:54 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well, someday the passage of time will swallow Gates. If that doesn't make him meek, I don't know what will.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, Skorp, are you saying that being humble, meek, and grateful are problematic traits in people?

Please - if you're going to insist that pride does not equate to arrogance, then don't equate humility with self-hatred.

This is a very black and white view of human qualities.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Basilides]
    #5515627 - 04/14/06 11:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nice reply Bas!

A lot of what is described under the word pride and humble COMBINED is what I would just equate with having a HEALTHY self esteem.

The humble side in the balance is what keeps a healthy self esteem from becoming arrogant, boastful, cocky, and developing superiority complexes, etc.

I can feel really good about passing my last TKD test and in my new belt rank, and yet, I have a long way to go to 9th degree black belt. That keeps me humble and yet I still feel good about achieving something new for myself.

Then I think of the high degree black belts and how the challenge for them is to NEVER have to come into a real life experience, where they would have to use their physical skills.

At first glance that sounds silly. Not really. I think of the obnoxious little kid who taunts the bigger boys and then runs away and the kid who is mild manored, cool to everyone and never once is moved to exercise his ability to wipe their face in the mud (when he easily could if he wanted too).

I'm not to sure where you meant to go with sharing your post Skorp and I am all for people developing healthy self esteems and realizing their potential. :thumbup: Not sure why you don't appreciate how humility tempers pride from becoming something ugly. Without it, it will and I think thats what some are attempting to highlight here and its probably because, they experienced it in themselves like I am going to share.

Like in the examples I gave, sometimes, realizing a potential is being able to realize a life of walking and speaking softly all the while carrying a giant ass stick behind you, that no one ever sees or knows is even there, except for yourself.:yesnod:

Mmmmm that's an ideal I strive to achieve. You'll never know it when I hit the mark, but you all know it when I fail at that. :blush:

I seem to like to walk around with big 2 by 4s and clunk people on the heads with them sometimes. I DON'T feel good about that aspect of myself very much. It's prideful BS is right and even reflective of a weakness, not a strength. Yecch I wish I could wash it all off of me and start fresh and new when I slip and fall in the mud, while pushing others faces in it.

I will continue gathering up 2x4s for myself (achieving) because it comes naturally to me to do that. I'll know I hit a healthy balanced place of being when I NEVER have to pull one out and around from behind me and use it against someone. Until I can realize what that is like, I haven't achieved Squat in the bigger scheme of things.

People with a spirit for life in life seem to achieve naturally and easily. When our SPIRIT is allowed to come through GREAT things can be achieved indeed. HOWEVER, if achievements to be proud of, are NOT tempered with grace and humility, they will turn to the ugliness of arrogance, airs of superiority, and boastful pride.

I think a balance of the two qualities is what is to be strived for as an ideal if our true beauty and strength is ever going to come through and be realized by ourselves and others. Pride without humility is just UGLY.

Ever know that feeling where say some people in a group are going (in other words and actions of course),"Look at me! I can do a summer sault." and you say, "Wonderful!" :smile: Another says, "Look at me! I can do a handstand." And you say, "Thats Awesome! :smile:" and another says, "Look at me! I can do a cart wheel", and you say, "That was Great! :smile:" all the while having ZERO desire to step in and show them you can do a a triple front handspring triple flip running lay up?

THAT'S when I think one truly has IT all together and has achieved something to feel good about and no one will ever know it but them.:japsmile:

Good topic for discussion Skorp! :thumbup:

:peace: :heart:


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5515753 - 04/14/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Scorpivo. I ask you to listen to some of this Buckmister Fuller Lecture. He gives his idea, without using the word pride, that pride has the evolutionary function of allowing humans to deal with their own faults. It's toward the beginning, and the entire lecture is so greatly interesting that I just think it good stuff to listen to anyway. There's a transcript and audio.
http://memeticdrift.net/bucky/


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5515772 - 04/14/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So what value is there in staying alive? If you consider external things worthless, why do you own them? Is it all the same to you if you throw out all your stuff and kill yourself?

I doubt it. You say you don't place worth on external things or on yourself, but you're just lying to yourself.


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InvisibleI_was_the_walrus
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5516040 - 04/14/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Scorpivo:

How is a mystic to preach his word toward me regarding humility without having some sense of pride of his own? He'd have to have that pride in is knowledge to preach it confidently.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5516071 - 04/14/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Since you want my opinion, I think this argument is all over an ambiguity of the definition of the word humble. People who oppose humility consider the word humble to mean low in status, deferential, or submissive. People who support humility consider the word humble to mean "not arrogant"

It's pretty much summed up by that, in my opinion. I feel am for "not being arrogant", and against people trying to be low in status, deferential, or submissive. So am I for or against the concept of humility?

Just depends on the usage.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5516100 - 04/14/06 01:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RedNucleus said:
So what value is there in staying alive?



there isn't any value to staying alive. It just is. Why feel the need to place an illusory number or rank to it?

Quote:

If you consider external things worthless, why do you own them?



notice I said external concepts, but I dont personally place value and worth upon them. The worth that we place on these things, only causes stress and worry about loosing that imaginary worth that we have placed there.
Quote:

Is it all the same to you if you throw out all your stuff and kill yourself?




no, because that would be placing a value of worthlessness. Im far from perfect, but I strive towards being free of these imaginary values: as you can see, I used the word "Worthless" in my original post.

Things, life, concepts, just are, and whatever value, spin, belief, or worth we place on them is just a by-product of human perception.

I doubt it. You say you don't place worth on external things or on yourself, but you're just lying to yourself.




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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5516126 - 04/14/06 01:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I need to think.

btw you said external things not external concepts


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Edited by RedNucleus (04/14/06 01:53 PM)


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5516143 - 04/14/06 01:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Value is subjective. Therefore you cannot claim that it is a fact that nothing has value. I understand and agree with your opinion, in a way, but I would phrase it like this: Value does not exist outside of the boundaries of the human mind.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5516244 - 04/14/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RedNucleus said:
I need to think.

btw you said external things not external concepts




yeah, you are right, I could have sworn I had typed "concepts", but it can be things, as long as you dont confuse monetary value and personal value.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5516253 - 04/14/06 02:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RedNucleus said:
Value does not exist outside of the boundaries of the human mind.




Yes, this is exactly what I mean.


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5516729 - 04/14/06 05:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Pride is one sure way to piss people off(obviously you dont care though), Humility is far wiser. Just because someone is humble does not mean that he is weak. Far from it. the humble man knows himself and doesnt need pride. Pride is a crutch for the weak minded, a self esteem booster if you will. Pride is love of the self. if you need that then good for you, but me I tend to save my love for others. I dont need to praise myself to feel happy. Each to his own of course.

blaze2


--------------------
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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5517382 - 04/14/06 10:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Quote:

RedNucleus said:
Value does not exist outside of the boundaries of the human mind.




Yes, this is exactly what I mean.



That is true only for the value which the human tries to utilize for himself :wink:

Self-esteem is is a necessary good which existing in the realm of egoistical truth and love, while pride without humility is a gross ugly sin, existing within the borders of lie and ignorance, based on falseness of others and its own concept.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5517962 - 04/15/06 02:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

self-esteem is needed for people who still compare themselves to other people.


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5517966 - 04/15/06 02:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

self-esteem is needed for anyone who wants to accomplish a Individual task to the best of thier ability. self-doubt would be the antithesis. has nothing to do with competetion becuase if your smart youd realize your only competing aganist yourself.


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5518011 - 04/15/06 04:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I hate to sound like Yoda, but......


Do, or don't. Self-esteem isn't needed. It is for bulemic teenagers and soft journalism. It is an abstract value of self-worth.

I think this is what "Don Juan" meant when he talked about how a warrior acted. Without reference to how one feels, their current state of emotions - Act from beyond yourself.
Funny coincidence: what is the first thing they tell you when you take the ACT/SAT? go with your first instinct!


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5518101 - 04/15/06 06:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fresh313 said:
self-esteem is needed for anyone who wants to accomplish a Individual task to the best of thier ability. self-doubt would be the antithesis. has nothing to do with competetion becuase if your smart youd realize your only competing aganist yourself.





Correct. In reality, self-respect is essential to our survival.

In the words of Branden:

"In order to deal with reality successfully - to pursue and achieve the values which his life requires - man needs self-esteem: he needs to be confident of his efficacy and worth.
Anxiety and guilt, the antipodes of self-esteem and the insignia of mental illness, are the disintegrators of thought, the distorters of values and the paralyzers of action.
When a man of self-esteem chooses his values and sets his goals, when he projects the long-range purposes that will unify and guide his actions - it is like a bridge thrown to the future, across which his life will pass, a bridge supported by the conviction that his mind is competent to think, to judge, to value, and that he is worthy of enjoying values.

The sense of control over reality is not the result of special skills, ability or knowledge. It is not dependent on particular successes or failures. It reflects one's fundamental relationship to reality, one's conviction of fundamental efficacy and worthiness. It reflects the certainty that, in essence and in principle, one is right for reality. Self-esteem is a metaphysical estimate."
Indeed, and I add: Pay no attention to those who think otherwise - they are enemies of reason. Live the philosophy for yourself and see where it gets you in the long run.




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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5518106 - 04/15/06 06:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

a soldier with self esteem and confidence in his abilites will always kill the soldier on the other side who has no self esteem. without self esteem u fall into a neutral zone, fumbling between chance and doubt and luck. if u think geronimo had no self esteem u need to re evaluate some things.


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5518132 - 04/15/06 06:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

a soldier with self esteem and confidence in his abilities ... may also see his superiourness to his enemy and may offer him a humble chance of "learning by escaping death" :wink:
Pride will kill.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5518137 - 04/15/06 06:35 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

your not supposed to teach virtues to your enemies in a war...


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5518179 - 04/15/06 07:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Oops, I mixed soldier and warrior.
You talked of a soldier. Very view soldiers are true warriors. Soldiers are intentionally left in the illusion of being a warrior. Soldiers are at best full of pride. They follow other persons concepts. So you are right :wink:
Warriors are full of self-esteem and only are following their own concepts, allying with other warriors who have the same concept and eventually hire soldiers who will fight for them :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5520242 - 04/16/06 04:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fresh313 said:
a soldier with self esteem and confidence in his abilites will always kill the soldier on the other side who has no self esteem. without self esteem u fall into a neutral zone, fumbling between chance and doubt and luck. if u think geronimo had no self esteem u need to re evaluate some things.




this is complete bullshit, and you know it. why you ask? Ill break it down by sentence.

The first sentence is assumption, nothing more, it has no basis, no proof, no bearing on reality.
The second sentence, is assumption as well, but even worse, it is an assumption regardin the right-ness of a certain theory. There is no neutral zone when one surpasses self-esteem. One who has gone beyond the need for self-esteem understands that there is only two results from your own actions: survival, or non-survival. When all choices are categorized into this simplistic taxonomy, lifes decisions become either "Do" or "Dont".

3)
Quote:

He appeared at fairs, including the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis, and selling souvenirs and photographs of himself. However, he was not allowed to return to the land of his birth. He rode in the United States President Theodore Roosevelt's 1905 inaugural parade. He died of pneumonia at Fort Sill




yes, loads of dignity. self-esteem out the wazoo. Atleast pick someone like Quang Duc.....


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5520269 - 04/16/06 05:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

u want proof, well put on the gloves and lets hop in the ring, we'll see how self-esteem vs. no self esteem fairs. then u can have your proof.

if you keep looking for proof in this world ur going to be sadly disappointed more time than not.

i dont know what your trying to say about my boy geronimo except that the white man fucked him over royally and took him out of his native environment by the barrel of a gun... i dont see how him selling trinkets to survive in his non native society has any relevance. please a try and make a little sense.


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5520371 - 04/16/06 08:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

self-esteem knows to forgive -
pride destroys


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5520440 - 04/16/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fresh313 said:
u want proof, well put on the gloves and lets hop in the ring, we'll see how self-esteem vs. no self esteem fairs. then u can have your proof.

if you keep looking for proof in this world ur going to be sadly disappointed more time than not.

i dont know what your trying to say about my boy geronimo except that the white man fucked him over royally and took him out of his native environment by the barrel of a gun... i dont see how him selling trinkets to survive in his non native society has any relevance. please a try and make a little sense.




self-esteem and dignity go hand in hand right? Why doesnt my example of Geronimo not make sense in regards to the discussion?

Self-esteem isnt needed. It is a psychotherapy term which was created to label a certain aspect of human perception of themselves/reality. Just because it has a term, doesnt mean it is neccesssary. Here a little something I found on Wiki regarding self-esteem....

Quote:

Peer-reviewed research undertaken since then has not validated previous assumptions. Recent studies indicate that inflating students' self-esteem in and of itself has no positive effect on any objective aspect of their lives. One study has shown that inflating self-esteem by itself can actually decrease grades




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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5520465 - 04/16/06 09:08 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

For Aristotle, pride is a virtue. A virtue is the median point on a continuum between vices of deficiency and excess. Courage, for example, is the virtue occupying the median point on a continuum between cowardice and rash foolhardiness. The coward achieves little, and the foolhardy man dies in his youth. The man of courage however is effective in his endeavors.

Generosity is another virtue on a continuum between vices of excess and deficiency. The miser hordes his excess, the person who gives too much finds himself unable to provide for his own needs, but the generous man keeps enough for himself and gives from his excess.
Virtue is all about finding the golden middle way.

Pride is said to be the virtue occupying the median point between thinking too highly of oneself and thinking to lowly of one's self. Naturally to make this kind of judgment, one must compare himself to the persons around him and determine his social status. He will compare himself to rulers and wealthy men, to beggars and slaves, and to all in between. The person who accurately judges his status (avoiding excess or deficiency), and acts according to that judgment exercises the virtue of pride; he will defer to those above him, deal confidently with his peer group, and take no caca from his inferiors.

The only difference between the Greek virtue of Pride and the Christian virtue of humility, is that the Christian includes Jesus Christ in the set of persons to whom he compares himself. Being truly man, Jesus is one of those with whom a person must compare himself when judging his position in society. Yet as truly God, Jesus towers so far above that in comparison all other men are as dirt. Hence the term "humility" from the Greek "humus" (dirt).

The God-Man, Jesus the Christ, makes infinitely lopsided the continuum where pride occupies the golden mean. When all other men are as dirt compared to Christ, all men take on a radical equality. When one makes the accurate assessment of himself as radically equal to other men in his radical inferiority to Christ, he exercises the virtue of humility.

Humility and pride booth claim to occupy the virtuous middle point on the same continuum. However, that continuum looks different depending upon who is included in the set of those to whom one must compare himself.


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: shroomydan]
    #5520486 - 04/16/06 09:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

For Aristotle, pride is a virtue. A virtue is the median point on a continuum between vices of deficiency and excess. Courage, for example, is the virtue occupying the median point on a continuum between cowardice and rash foolhardiness. The coward achieves little, and the foolhardy man dies in his youth. The man of courage however is effective in his endeavors.

Generosity is another virtue on a continuum between vices of excess and deficiency. The miser hordes his excess, the person who gives too much finds himself unable to provide for his own needs, but the generous man keeps enough for himself and gives from his excess.
Virtue is all about finding the golden middle way.

Pride is said to be the virtue occupying the median point between thinking too highly of oneself and thinking to lowly of one's self. Naturally to make this kind of judgment, one must compare himself to the persons around him and determine his social status. He will compare himself to rulers and wealthy men, to beggars and slaves, and to all in between. The person who accurately judges his status (avoiding excess or deficiency), and acts according to that judgment exercises the virtue of pride; he will defer to those above him, deal confidently with his peer group, and take no caca from his inferiors.



Exactamente, my well-versed philosopher. :thumbup:




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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5520635 - 04/16/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Perhaps that balance of pride and humility might be described as "accurate self-assessment." I believe it is possible to view one's accomplishments and errors with the intention of understanding, rather than judging.


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Veritas]
    #5520643 - 04/16/06 10:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Perhaps that balance of pride and humility might be described as "accurate self-assessment."  I believe it is possible to view one's accomplishments and errors with the intention of understanding, rather than judging.



Well spoken! :thumbup:

Welcome back, btw!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5520983 - 04/16/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You are simply spiritually inverted - like the pentagram with one point down.
Pride is symbolized by Lucifer in the West, so why not simply affirm the fallen angel that symbolizes your stance? After all, attacking mystics (a spiritual stance) from an apparently secular, worldly, money-acquisition stance is apples-to-oranges. YOUR spiritual position is clearly 'Luciferian,' so try being consistant and clear at the same time. Oh...but that would require a committment to honesty, which means truth...not Luciferian at all.

Humility should not be confused with co-dependence, neither is a dictionary definition very subtle in most cases (e.g., pity and compassion are cross-referenced, but they are quite different). Humility requires love of self as well as others. Neither does a humble spirit prevent achievement in life, unless you are merely responding to ravenously hungry materialists who employ ruthlessness in their business dealings.

Selfishness is the equivalent of pride. It's opposite is selflessness which is the equivalent of love. I though everyone knew that. Happy Easter.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5521577 - 04/16/06 04:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If Lucifer were abolished for being a rationally selfish, rationally prideful person - then mark me down as a card-carrying Luciferian! If advocating self-love as a prime-mover makes me Satan in your eyes, then Satanic I am. If refusing to live like a meek, apologetic animal for the sake of others makes me a Devil, then so be it.


:satansmoking:


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5521627 - 04/16/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You keep associating humility with self-hate. You say you have self-love, but in what sense? When I think of self-love in a meek sense, I think of compassion for one's self when it is duly noted. Nothing wrong with that. I think you're confusing having a healthy self-esteem with some kind of self-styled perma-fortitude (and it's the meek who are supposedly weak?) But what use is pride, when it only produces self-centered actions, but more importantly, self-centered thoughts and world-views?


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Basilides]
    #5521698 - 04/16/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What about having pride in one's compassionate regard for others, eh? :lol:

Those who denounce those with a sense of pride are usually dealing with a sense of lack themselves. Its like the pissed off person who thinks the world is out to get them, and they pass by the grinning optimistic who is creating their own reality and is enjoying the experience of doing so... they want to wipe the smirk right off of their face! How dare you feel good about yourself and go forth and accomplish things when I feel like shit!! :mad:

I think that pretty much sums it up. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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If I should die this very moment
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For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Basilides]
    #5521972 - 04/16/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You say you have self-love, but in what sense?

In the sense that I respect and honor my intellect; my body; my life.
I admire my multi-faceted personality, my odd quirks and my sense of humor. I hold in great respect for what I am capable of accomplishing, and high esteems in what I've accomplished, survived through and lived to experience. I have great appreciation for what I've learned through my lessons and mistakes, and for my ability to evolve from such.
I greatly appreciate and respect my faculty of reason and it's reasoning ability. I love my natural growth towards greater goals for myself, for betterment and self-improvement. I love my passion for intellectual pursuits and educational absorption.
I love my individual, unique physical appearances. I respect my body, and admiration for the mesomorphic build it has and all the potential it offers. I love the multi-cultural life I've lived all over the world, and love myself for choosing to live. All that, and more..


But what use is pride, when it only produces self-centered actions, but more importantly, self-centered thoughts and world-views?

Pride is of a many essential, important roles in individual happiness and success. Read the first post as well as Shroomydan's post.




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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5522026 - 04/16/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:

The more one embraces and charishes oneself, the more so they are aware and focus upon the present experience that results from oneself. Thus, the more one directly perceives reality. The more one directly perceives reality, the more one builds a perspective of understanding of reality, which means that one is thus more capable of initiating action that benefits oneself/one's environment/reality.

What does one's environment consist of? Others. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5522319 - 04/16/06 07:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
What about having pride in one's compassionate regard for others, eh? :lol:

Those who denounce those with a sense of pride are usually dealing with a sense of lack themselves.




let's see some evidence to support this statement

Quote:

Its like the pissed off person who thinks the world is out to get them, and they pass by the grinning optimistic who is creating their own reality and is enjoying the experience of doing so... they want to wipe the smirk right off of their face! How dare you feel good about yourself and go forth and accomplish things when I feel like shit!! :mad:

I think that pretty much sums it up. :lol:





the roles in your scenario could just as easily be reversed.


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5522326 - 04/16/06 07:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
:thumbup:

The more one embraces and charishes oneself, the more so they are aware and focus upon the present experience that results from oneself. Thus, the more one directly perceives reality. The more one directly perceives reality, the more one builds a perspective of understanding of reality, which means that one is thus more capable of initiating action that benefits oneself/one's environment/reality.

What does one's environment consist of? Others. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




cherishing others goes hand in hand with cherishing your self. once it is understood that we are all interelated and fundnamentally similar, self love naturally extends outward to all people.


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Deviate]
    #5522354 - 04/16/06 07:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
cherishing others goes hand in hand with cherishing your self. once it is understood that we are all interelated and fundnamentally similar, self love naturally extends outward to all people.




Exactly! :thumbup: That is what it was that I was attempting to express. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5522357 - 04/16/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Markos is right.

happy easter


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5522528 - 04/16/06 08:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

lol, we're all going to hell, ohhh mannn im so scared, save me jesus save me plz. alright i must goto church now and repent. peace out sinners.


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5522721 - 04/16/06 09:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Humility is not self-hate. It is a recognition of no-self.


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5522801 - 04/16/06 09:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Oh, is that what it is?


--------------------


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5522856 - 04/16/06 10:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So, really, you're just looking for an inciteful word for good self-esteem :shrug:


--------------------


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5523516 - 04/17/06 05:06 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for being good...I mean bad enough to come out. You are most confused about the nature of humility. You seem to be confusing humility with timidity. My guess is that you have been victimized at some point in some way, didn't respond forcefully enough, feel self-hatred about the event and have decided to rail against such apparent weakness. But, what do I know. I do know that you're not going to be able to become vulnerable enough for deep love to occur between you and others if you maintain this defensive posture, and your relationships will never attain to the status of 'love relationships.' That will cause people to leave you repeatedly and your bitterness will increase. That is what I know. I feel ya, and your attitude is all to prevalent among counselees that I work with. I recommend that you work with someone yourself before you miss or lose the possibility of finding love. People in love don't have your perspective.

Peace.


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5523551 - 04/17/06 06:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I am quite fine in the romance department, Markos. It is because there are various values and traits which I value within myself, that I can love them in another. If I did not love or respect any values of my own, then there would be little to no basis for a deep-seated love, admiration and respect for another. To say 'I love you' one must know first how to say the 'I.' Just as Pride does not vitiate the love I have for myself, nor does it vitiate the earned love I have for my loved ones. Rather, Pride supports it.

I would not care for the love professed by one who gave it merely out of charity and not from their own selfish expression of admiration of values I hold which they value as well. I would not be flattered by, nor accept, a concept of self-sacrificial, self-less "love" from which the person derives no personal pleasure or happiness from the company and existence of myself.

Love is not self-sacrifice or humility, but the most profound assertion of my own needs and values. It is for my own happiness that I need the person I love, and that is the greatest compliment, the greatest tribute I can pay to that person.




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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5523652 - 04/17/06 07:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Aristotle also mentions the three types of friendship; utility friendship, pleasure friendship, and virtue friendship.

The pleasure friend is loved for selfish reasons. One enjoys spending time with the friend. An example would be drinking buddies or the girl you have sex with but wouldn't consider marrying.

The utility friend is also loved for selfish reasons. One loves his utility friends because he benefits socially or financially from the relationship. An example would be the friendly relationship between a salesman and his clients, or the the relationships which unite members of professional organizations and political parties.

Virtue friendship is not selfish. In a pleasure or utility friendship, the friend is loved as a means to a self-serving end, but one loves his virtue friends because they are good in themselves. Virtue friendship is true friendship that can only exist between two virtuous people. Aristotle said it could only exist between two men, but I think the romantic relationship between a man and a woman should be a virtue friendship primarily, even though it is pleasurable and often serves utilitarian ends.

The upshot is that true friendship, true love, is other centered, not self centered.


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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5524530 - 04/17/06 11:48 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
You say you have self-love, but in what sense?

In the sense that I respect and honor my intellect; my body; my life.
I admire my multi-faceted personality, my odd quirks and my sense of humor. I hold in great respect for what I am capable of accomplishing, and high esteems in what I've accomplished, survived through and lived to experience. I have great appreciation for what I've learned through my lessons and mistakes, and for my ability to evolve from such.
I greatly appreciate and respect my faculty of reason and it's reasoning ability. I love my natural growth towards greater goals for myself, for betterment and self-improvement. I love my passion for intellectual pursuits and educational absorption.
I love my individual, unique physical appearances. I respect my body, and admiration for the mesomorphic build it has and all the potential it offers. I love the multi-cultural life I've lived all over the world, and love myself for choosing to live. All that, and more..







You dont need pride to feel this way. You shouldnt need to decide to have these things. They are a natural right, not a choice. The humble man already knows this.

Markos is very right, especially in the love department. You have to understand man, that I had almost all the same thoughts as you 2 years ago, and you know what I was certain I was right, but I obviously wasnt, seeing as how miserable I was. You need to try something new man. Its not like you cant just go back to your old ways if something isnt for you.

Love isnt about pickign peices of people to like/dislike man. Its loving a persons WHOLE. Even the parts you dont agree with. You cant have that until you give up your pride.

Peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5525268 - 04/17/06 02:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If it's all about you, it's not love. Moreover, selflessness on the part of both poles of a love relationship is the only way to effect true Union. Pride is not capable of this Union and is inimical to it. Pride may "assert" your own needs and values, but love 'shares' needs and values. The process is different and so is the result. Love is transcendental, pride is not.

As to "charity,"the Latin 'caritas' has been degraded in English into a pathetic form of pity which is your usage of the word. The caritas synthesis in Catholic theology is a merger of human 'eros' and Divine 'agape.' It is not a colorless reality lacking in pleasure and happiness, but rather partakes both of the yearning of human eros as well as the pure altruism of Divine agape. Pride has nothing of the virtue of love, and you are being Procrustean by attempting to force it to be a vehicle of virtue.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5525678 - 04/17/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You are creating an objective meaning to the word, whilst the word differs greatly from context to context, and what is implied on dictionary.com does not equate to the meaning set forth by teachings of spirituality.

Being humble means that you still have a long way to go, that you are still a beginner. Modesty is highly cherished in our culture for the reason that you do not need to boast about your skill in order for it to be shown. Like a Samurai, he will be polite and respectful to no end, but abstain from returning the respect that's given out, and he will respond in action. Action from decapitation with his Katana.

:cool:

Pride may not be arrogance, but it leads to it. It is the all bark and no bite mentality, and creates the illusion that you are in control, when in reality you are a mere peon. It is a delusionary lifestyle that revolves around stepping on other people's feet in order for you to get through. Offend enough people and one will halt you in your steps.

Putting yourself first will not get you anywhere, because one's status is interdependent of others' support of his basis. Working for the love of others will earn you respect and infinite graditude that will propel you along much farther than your selfish way, by the return of love that you spawned. In retrospect of others on your life, no one will say "Yes, he was a great man, he worked for himself and didn't give a penny back".

Don't be a doormat and give everything that people ask for, but give what you really don't need and your return will be exponential.

As a case in point, I've got a small anecdote. This girl friend of mine's belt broke on her pants, and she asked me if I had another. I said "Sure, you can have my triple-studded belt, it doesn't fit any of my Dickies anyway". She asked me if I wanted any money for it, and I said no.

Now, 3 years later, she still wears it. For my personal gain, I could have charged her $10 she offered me, but I didn't and put sentimental value on the item and put her in my debt. Just because you are modest and generous doesn't mean that you will not profit yourself. Material goods and services aren't the only rate of exchange.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Fospher]
    #5525726 - 04/17/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

great post fospher


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5526156 - 04/17/06 06:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

This seems less like Pride vs Humility and more like Self-acceptance vs Self-denial.

Pride and Humility both seem to be more of an outward expression. It's possible to completely accept yourself and appear humble. It's also possible to appear prideful but live in self-denial.


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5526941 - 04/17/06 08:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
I am quite fine in the romance department, Markos. It is because there are various values and traits which I value within myself, that I can love them in another. If I did not love or respect any values of my own, then there would be little to no basis for a deep-seated love, admiration and respect for another. To say 'I love you' one must know first how to say the 'I.' Just as Pride does not vitiate the love I have for myself, nor does it vitiate the earned love I have for my loved ones. Rather, Pride supports it.

I would not care for the love professed by one who gave it merely out of charity and not from their own selfish expression of admiration of values I hold which they value as well. I would not be flattered by, nor accept, a concept of self-sacrificial, self-less "love" from which the person derives no personal pleasure or happiness from the company and existence of myself.

Love is not self-sacrifice or humility, but the most profound assertion of my own needs and values. It is for my own happiness that I need the person I love, and that is the greatest compliment, the greatest tribute I can pay to that person.







:mushroom2: :heart: :mushroom2:


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5982264 - 08/20/06 07:53 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Selfishness is the equivalent of pride. It's opposite is selflessness which is the equivalent of love. I though everyone knew that. Happy Easter.



Huh?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5982274 - 08/20/06 07:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Makes sense to me. :wink:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Icelander]
    #5982461 - 08/20/06 09:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Oops. Turns out I misread the word selflessness.

Atleast this is a cool thread.. =)


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Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5986448 - 08/22/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It's interesting that this thread was bumped, as my perspective on this has changed slightly since reading Ken Wilber's ideas about the pre/trans fallacy. I still laugh at the idea of pride as the "crown of virtues," but now I do see it as a good thing, but only if one has an awareness that extends beyond one's own pride. One should not avoid pride, but rather transcend it. A truly enlightened person can be proud and humble at the same time.


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Silversoul]
    #5988487 - 08/23/06 12:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

That's how I feel, except that I don't beleive in trancending it. I beleive in understanding it.

It seems to me that you won't fly off the face of the earth for knowing that you are a good person.

So long as you realize that life goes on, you will have to remain humbled. =)


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OfflinePed
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5991024 - 08/23/06 09:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

There is pride that is helpful, and pride that is unhelpful. There is humility that is helpful, and humility that is unhelpful.

When a person is at odds with themselves because they are concerned with proving their virtue through meekness and submission, this is unhelpful. It causes us to become self-absorbed, preoccupied with our status, and involved in a constant process of comparing ourself against an elevated external ideal. When a person has inflated view of themselves, exaggerating their own good qualities and conceiving themselves in higher esteem than others, this is unhelpful. It causes us to become self-absorbed, preoccupied with our status, and involved in a constant process of comparing ourself against an inferior external condition. Either of these views is an aspect, or pole, of one state of mind: ego-centricity. It's this ego-centred attitude that leads to problems. Humility or pride by themselves have nothing to do with it.

On the flip side, when a person is gracious toward others, we can say this is humility. We can be gracious with others, and even elevate their good qualities ahead of our own, without behaving in a self-deprecating fashion. This is a helpful sort of humility, because it causes us to become happy, and does not lead to problems. By the same token, we can recognize our own good heart, the good things we've done in our life, and we can feel proud. This is not a contradiction. It is a helpful sort of pride, because it causes us to become happy and does not lead to problems. These two "flavors" of pride and humility are also two different poles of one state of mind: compassion. It's compassion which solves our problems. Humility or pride by themselves have nothing to do with it.

The crown of virtues is compassion. The root of faults is self-preoccupation. Either of these can be expressed in ways interpreted either as "pride" or "humility."


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Ped]
    #5991295 - 08/23/06 11:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
There is pride that is helpful, and pride that is unhelpful. There is humility that is helpful, and humility that is unhelpful.

When a person is at odds with themselves because they are concerned with proving their virtue through meekness and submission, this is unhelpful. It causes us to become self-absorbed, preoccupied with our status, and involved in a constant process of comparing ourself against an elevated external ideal. When a person has inflated view of themselves, exaggerating their own good qualities and conceiving themselves in higher esteem than others, this is unhelpful. It causes us to become self-absorbed, preoccupied with our status, and involved in a constant process of comparing ourself against an inferior external condition. Either of these views is an aspect, or pole, of one state of mind: ego-centricity. It's this ego-centred attitude that leads to problems. Humility or pride by themselves have nothing to do with it.

On the flip side, when a person is gracious toward others, we can say this is humility. We can be gracious with others, and even elevate their good qualities ahead of our own, without behaving in a self-deprecating fashion. This is a helpful sort of humility, because it causes us to become happy, and does not lead to problems. By the same token, we can recognize our own good heart, the good things we've done in our life, and we can feel proud. This is not a contradiction. It is a helpful sort of pride, because it causes us to become happy and does not lead to problems. These two "flavors" of pride and humility are also two different poles of one state of mind: compassion. It's compassion which solves our problems. Humility or pride by themselves have nothing to do with it.

The crown of virtues is compassion. The root of faults is self-preoccupation. Either of these can be expressed in ways interpreted either as "pride" or "humility."



Cool.


--------------------
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