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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5982274 - 08/20/06 07:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Makes sense to me. :wink:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Icelander]
    #5982461 - 08/20/06 09:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Oops. Turns out I misread the word selflessness.

Atleast this is a cool thread.. =)


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Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5986448 - 08/22/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It's interesting that this thread was bumped, as my perspective on this has changed slightly since reading Ken Wilber's ideas about the pre/trans fallacy. I still laugh at the idea of pride as the "crown of virtues," but now I do see it as a good thing, but only if one has an awareness that extends beyond one's own pride. One should not avoid pride, but rather transcend it. A truly enlightened person can be proud and humble at the same time.


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Silversoul]
    #5988487 - 08/23/06 12:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

That's how I feel, except that I don't beleive in trancending it. I beleive in understanding it.

It seems to me that you won't fly off the face of the earth for knowing that you are a good person.

So long as you realize that life goes on, you will have to remain humbled. =)


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Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.


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OfflinePed
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5991024 - 08/23/06 09:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

There is pride that is helpful, and pride that is unhelpful. There is humility that is helpful, and humility that is unhelpful.

When a person is at odds with themselves because they are concerned with proving their virtue through meekness and submission, this is unhelpful. It causes us to become self-absorbed, preoccupied with our status, and involved in a constant process of comparing ourself against an elevated external ideal. When a person has inflated view of themselves, exaggerating their own good qualities and conceiving themselves in higher esteem than others, this is unhelpful. It causes us to become self-absorbed, preoccupied with our status, and involved in a constant process of comparing ourself against an inferior external condition. Either of these views is an aspect, or pole, of one state of mind: ego-centricity. It's this ego-centred attitude that leads to problems. Humility or pride by themselves have nothing to do with it.

On the flip side, when a person is gracious toward others, we can say this is humility. We can be gracious with others, and even elevate their good qualities ahead of our own, without behaving in a self-deprecating fashion. This is a helpful sort of humility, because it causes us to become happy, and does not lead to problems. By the same token, we can recognize our own good heart, the good things we've done in our life, and we can feel proud. This is not a contradiction. It is a helpful sort of pride, because it causes us to become happy and does not lead to problems. These two "flavors" of pride and humility are also two different poles of one state of mind: compassion. It's compassion which solves our problems. Humility or pride by themselves have nothing to do with it.

The crown of virtues is compassion. The root of faults is self-preoccupation. Either of these can be expressed in ways interpreted either as "pride" or "humility."


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Ped]
    #5991295 - 08/23/06 11:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
There is pride that is helpful, and pride that is unhelpful. There is humility that is helpful, and humility that is unhelpful.

When a person is at odds with themselves because they are concerned with proving their virtue through meekness and submission, this is unhelpful. It causes us to become self-absorbed, preoccupied with our status, and involved in a constant process of comparing ourself against an elevated external ideal. When a person has inflated view of themselves, exaggerating their own good qualities and conceiving themselves in higher esteem than others, this is unhelpful. It causes us to become self-absorbed, preoccupied with our status, and involved in a constant process of comparing ourself against an inferior external condition. Either of these views is an aspect, or pole, of one state of mind: ego-centricity. It's this ego-centred attitude that leads to problems. Humility or pride by themselves have nothing to do with it.

On the flip side, when a person is gracious toward others, we can say this is humility. We can be gracious with others, and even elevate their good qualities ahead of our own, without behaving in a self-deprecating fashion. This is a helpful sort of humility, because it causes us to become happy, and does not lead to problems. By the same token, we can recognize our own good heart, the good things we've done in our life, and we can feel proud. This is not a contradiction. It is a helpful sort of pride, because it causes us to become happy and does not lead to problems. These two "flavors" of pride and humility are also two different poles of one state of mind: compassion. It's compassion which solves our problems. Humility or pride by themselves have nothing to do with it.

The crown of virtues is compassion. The root of faults is self-preoccupation. Either of these can be expressed in ways interpreted either as "pride" or "humility."



Cool.


--------------------
Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.


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