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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Basilides]
#5521972 - 04/16/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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You say you have self-love, but in what sense?
In the sense that I respect and honor my intellect; my body; my life. I admire my multi-faceted personality, my odd quirks and my sense of humor. I hold in great respect for what I am capable of accomplishing, and high esteems in what I've accomplished, survived through and lived to experience. I have great appreciation for what I've learned through my lessons and mistakes, and for my ability to evolve from such. I greatly appreciate and respect my faculty of reason and it's reasoning ability. I love my natural growth towards greater goals for myself, for betterment and self-improvement. I love my passion for intellectual pursuits and educational absorption. I love my individual, unique physical appearances. I respect my body, and admiration for the mesomorphic build it has and all the potential it offers. I love the multi-cultural life I've lived all over the world, and love myself for choosing to live. All that, and more..
But what use is pride, when it only produces self-centered actions, but more importantly, self-centered thoughts and world-views?
Pride is of a many essential, important roles in individual happiness and success. Read the first post as well as Shroomydan's post.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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The more one embraces and charishes oneself, the more so they are aware and focus upon the present experience that results from oneself. Thus, the more one directly perceives reality. The more one directly perceives reality, the more one builds a perspective of understanding of reality, which means that one is thus more capable of initiating action that benefits oneself/one's environment/reality.
What does one's environment consist of? Others. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fireworks_god]
#5522319 - 04/16/06 07:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: What about having pride in one's compassionate regard for others, eh? 
Those who denounce those with a sense of pride are usually dealing with a sense of lack themselves.
let's see some evidence to support this statement
Quote:
Its like the pissed off person who thinks the world is out to get them, and they pass by the grinning optimistic who is creating their own reality and is enjoying the experience of doing so... they want to wipe the smirk right off of their face! How dare you feel good about yourself and go forth and accomplish things when I feel like shit!! 
I think that pretty much sums it up. 
the roles in your scenario could just as easily be reversed.
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Deviate
newbie
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Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fireworks_god]
#5522326 - 04/16/06 07:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:

The more one embraces and charishes oneself, the more so they are aware and focus upon the present experience that results from oneself. Thus, the more one directly perceives reality. The more one directly perceives reality, the more one builds a perspective of understanding of reality, which means that one is thus more capable of initiating action that benefits oneself/one's environment/reality.
What does one's environment consist of? Others. 
 Peace.
cherishing others goes hand in hand with cherishing your self. once it is understood that we are all interelated and fundnamentally similar, self love naturally extends outward to all people.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Deviate]
#5522354 - 04/16/06 07:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: cherishing others goes hand in hand with cherishing your self. once it is understood that we are all interelated and fundnamentally similar, self love naturally extends outward to all people.
Exactly! That is what it was that I was attempting to express. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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Markos is right.
happy easter
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fresh313
journeyman


Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5522528 - 04/16/06 08:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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lol, we're all going to hell, ohhh mannn im so scared, save me jesus save me plz. alright i must goto church now and repent. peace out sinners.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Humility is not self-hate. It is a recognition of no-self.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fireworks_god]
#5522801 - 04/16/06 09:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Oh, is that what it is?
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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So, really, you're just looking for an inciteful word for good self-esteem
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Thanks for being good...I mean bad enough to come out. You are most confused about the nature of humility. You seem to be confusing humility with timidity. My guess is that you have been victimized at some point in some way, didn't respond forcefully enough, feel self-hatred about the event and have decided to rail against such apparent weakness. But, what do I know. I do know that you're not going to be able to become vulnerable enough for deep love to occur between you and others if you maintain this defensive posture, and your relationships will never attain to the status of 'love relationships.' That will cause people to leave you repeatedly and your bitterness will increase. That is what I know. I feel ya, and your attitude is all to prevalent among counselees that I work with. I recommend that you work with someone yourself before you miss or lose the possibility of finding love. People in love don't have your perspective.
Peace.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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I am quite fine in the romance department, Markos. It is because there are various values and traits which I value within myself, that I can love them in another. If I did not love or respect any values of my own, then there would be little to no basis for a deep-seated love, admiration and respect for another. To say 'I love you' one must know first how to say the 'I.' Just as Pride does not vitiate the love I have for myself, nor does it vitiate the earned love I have for my loved ones. Rather, Pride supports it.
I would not care for the love professed by one who gave it merely out of charity and not from their own selfish expression of admiration of values I hold which they value as well. I would not be flattered by, nor accept, a concept of self-sacrificial, self-less "love" from which the person derives no personal pleasure or happiness from the company and existence of myself.
Love is not self-sacrifice or humility, but the most profound assertion of my own needs and values. It is for my own happiness that I need the person I love, and that is the greatest compliment, the greatest tribute I can pay to that person.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite


Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Aristotle also mentions the three types of friendship; utility friendship, pleasure friendship, and virtue friendship.
The pleasure friend is loved for selfish reasons. One enjoys spending time with the friend. An example would be drinking buddies or the girl you have sex with but wouldn't consider marrying.
The utility friend is also loved for selfish reasons. One loves his utility friends because he benefits socially or financially from the relationship. An example would be the friendly relationship between a salesman and his clients, or the the relationships which unite members of professional organizations and political parties.
Virtue friendship is not selfish. In a pleasure or utility friendship, the friend is loved as a means to a self-serving end, but one loves his virtue friends because they are good in themselves. Virtue friendship is true friendship that can only exist between two virtuous people. Aristotle said it could only exist between two men, but I think the romantic relationship between a man and a woman should be a virtue friendship primarily, even though it is pleasurable and often serves utilitarian ends.
The upshot is that true friendship, true love, is other centered, not self centered.
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blaze2
The Witness


Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: You say you have self-love, but in what sense?
In the sense that I respect and honor my intellect; my body; my life. I admire my multi-faceted personality, my odd quirks and my sense of humor. I hold in great respect for what I am capable of accomplishing, and high esteems in what I've accomplished, survived through and lived to experience. I have great appreciation for what I've learned through my lessons and mistakes, and for my ability to evolve from such. I greatly appreciate and respect my faculty of reason and it's reasoning ability. I love my natural growth towards greater goals for myself, for betterment and self-improvement. I love my passion for intellectual pursuits and educational absorption. I love my individual, unique physical appearances. I respect my body, and admiration for the mesomorphic build it has and all the potential it offers. I love the multi-cultural life I've lived all over the world, and love myself for choosing to live. All that, and more..
You dont need pride to feel this way. You shouldnt need to decide to have these things. They are a natural right, not a choice. The humble man already knows this.
Markos is very right, especially in the love department. You have to understand man, that I had almost all the same thoughts as you 2 years ago, and you know what I was certain I was right, but I obviously wasnt, seeing as how miserable I was. You need to try something new man. Its not like you cant just go back to your old ways if something isnt for you.
Love isnt about pickign peices of people to like/dislike man. Its loving a persons WHOLE. Even the parts you dont agree with. You cant have that until you give up your pride.
Peace
blaze2
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
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Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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If it's all about you, it's not love. Moreover, selflessness on the part of both poles of a love relationship is the only way to effect true Union. Pride is not capable of this Union and is inimical to it. Pride may "assert" your own needs and values, but love 'shares' needs and values. The process is different and so is the result. Love is transcendental, pride is not.
As to "charity,"the Latin 'caritas' has been degraded in English into a pathetic form of pity which is your usage of the word. The caritas synthesis in Catholic theology is a merger of human 'eros' and Divine 'agape.' It is not a colorless reality lacking in pleasure and happiness, but rather partakes both of the yearning of human eros as well as the pure altruism of Divine agape. Pride has nothing of the virtue of love, and you are being Procrustean by attempting to force it to be a vehicle of virtue.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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You are creating an objective meaning to the word, whilst the word differs greatly from context to context, and what is implied on dictionary.com does not equate to the meaning set forth by teachings of spirituality.
Being humble means that you still have a long way to go, that you are still a beginner. Modesty is highly cherished in our culture for the reason that you do not need to boast about your skill in order for it to be shown. Like a Samurai, he will be polite and respectful to no end, but abstain from returning the respect that's given out, and he will respond in action. Action from decapitation with his Katana.

Pride may not be arrogance, but it leads to it. It is the all bark and no bite mentality, and creates the illusion that you are in control, when in reality you are a mere peon. It is a delusionary lifestyle that revolves around stepping on other people's feet in order for you to get through. Offend enough people and one will halt you in your steps.
Putting yourself first will not get you anywhere, because one's status is interdependent of others' support of his basis. Working for the love of others will earn you respect and infinite graditude that will propel you along much farther than your selfish way, by the return of love that you spawned. In retrospect of others on your life, no one will say "Yes, he was a great man, he worked for himself and didn't give a penny back".
Don't be a doormat and give everything that people ask for, but give what you really don't need and your return will be exponential.
As a case in point, I've got a small anecdote. This girl friend of mine's belt broke on her pants, and she asked me if I had another. I said "Sure, you can have my triple-studded belt, it doesn't fit any of my Dickies anyway". She asked me if I wanted any money for it, and I said no.
Now, 3 years later, she still wears it. For my personal gain, I could have charged her $10 she offered me, but I didn't and put sentimental value on the item and put her in my debt. Just because you are modest and generous doesn't mean that you will not profit yourself. Material goods and services aren't the only rate of exchange.
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blaze2
The Witness


Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Fospher]
#5525726 - 04/17/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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great post fospher
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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This seems less like Pride vs Humility and more like Self-acceptance vs Self-denial.
Pride and Humility both seem to be more of an outward expression. It's possible to completely accept yourself and appear humble. It's also possible to appear prideful but live in self-denial.
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fresh313
journeyman


Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: I am quite fine in the romance department, Markos. It is because there are various values and traits which I value within myself, that I can love them in another. If I did not love or respect any values of my own, then there would be little to no basis for a deep-seated love, admiration and respect for another. To say 'I love you' one must know first how to say the 'I.' Just as Pride does not vitiate the love I have for myself, nor does it vitiate the earned love I have for my loved ones. Rather, Pride supports it.
I would not care for the love professed by one who gave it merely out of charity and not from their own selfish expression of admiration of values I hold which they value as well. I would not be flattered by, nor accept, a concept of self-sacrificial, self-less "love" from which the person derives no personal pleasure or happiness from the company and existence of myself.
Love is not self-sacrifice or humility, but the most profound assertion of my own needs and values. It is for my own happiness that I need the person I love, and that is the greatest compliment, the greatest tribute I can pay to that person.
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The_Hobbit
Bilbo Baggins


Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,382
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Selfishness is the equivalent of pride. It's opposite is selflessness which is the equivalent of love. I though everyone knew that. Happy Easter.
Huh?
-------------------- Smoking my hobbit leaf... Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.
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