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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5517962 - 04/15/06 02:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

self-esteem is needed for people who still compare themselves to other people.


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5517966 - 04/15/06 02:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

self-esteem is needed for anyone who wants to accomplish a Individual task to the best of thier ability. self-doubt would be the antithesis. has nothing to do with competetion becuase if your smart youd realize your only competing aganist yourself.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5518011 - 04/15/06 04:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I hate to sound like Yoda, but......


Do, or don't. Self-esteem isn't needed. It is for bulemic teenagers and soft journalism. It is an abstract value of self-worth.

I think this is what "Don Juan" meant when he talked about how a warrior acted. Without reference to how one feels, their current state of emotions - Act from beyond yourself.
Funny coincidence: what is the first thing they tell you when you take the ACT/SAT? go with your first instinct!


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5518101 - 04/15/06 06:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fresh313 said:
self-esteem is needed for anyone who wants to accomplish a Individual task to the best of thier ability. self-doubt would be the antithesis. has nothing to do with competetion becuase if your smart youd realize your only competing aganist yourself.





Correct. In reality, self-respect is essential to our survival.

In the words of Branden:

"In order to deal with reality successfully - to pursue and achieve the values which his life requires - man needs self-esteem: he needs to be confident of his efficacy and worth.
Anxiety and guilt, the antipodes of self-esteem and the insignia of mental illness, are the disintegrators of thought, the distorters of values and the paralyzers of action.
When a man of self-esteem chooses his values and sets his goals, when he projects the long-range purposes that will unify and guide his actions - it is like a bridge thrown to the future, across which his life will pass, a bridge supported by the conviction that his mind is competent to think, to judge, to value, and that he is worthy of enjoying values.

The sense of control over reality is not the result of special skills, ability or knowledge. It is not dependent on particular successes or failures. It reflects one's fundamental relationship to reality, one's conviction of fundamental efficacy and worthiness. It reflects the certainty that, in essence and in principle, one is right for reality. Self-esteem is a metaphysical estimate."
Indeed, and I add: Pay no attention to those who think otherwise - they are enemies of reason. Live the philosophy for yourself and see where it gets you in the long run.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5518106 - 04/15/06 06:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

a soldier with self esteem and confidence in his abilites will always kill the soldier on the other side who has no self esteem. without self esteem u fall into a neutral zone, fumbling between chance and doubt and luck. if u think geronimo had no self esteem u need to re evaluate some things.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5518132 - 04/15/06 06:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

a soldier with self esteem and confidence in his abilities ... may also see his superiourness to his enemy and may offer him a humble chance of "learning by escaping death" :wink:
Pride will kill.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5518137 - 04/15/06 06:35 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

your not supposed to teach virtues to your enemies in a war...


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5518179 - 04/15/06 07:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Oops, I mixed soldier and warrior.
You talked of a soldier. Very view soldiers are true warriors. Soldiers are intentionally left in the illusion of being a warrior. Soldiers are at best full of pride. They follow other persons concepts. So you are right :wink:
Warriors are full of self-esteem and only are following their own concepts, allying with other warriors who have the same concept and eventually hire soldiers who will fight for them :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5520242 - 04/16/06 04:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fresh313 said:
a soldier with self esteem and confidence in his abilites will always kill the soldier on the other side who has no self esteem. without self esteem u fall into a neutral zone, fumbling between chance and doubt and luck. if u think geronimo had no self esteem u need to re evaluate some things.




this is complete bullshit, and you know it. why you ask? Ill break it down by sentence.

The first sentence is assumption, nothing more, it has no basis, no proof, no bearing on reality.
The second sentence, is assumption as well, but even worse, it is an assumption regardin the right-ness of a certain theory. There is no neutral zone when one surpasses self-esteem. One who has gone beyond the need for self-esteem understands that there is only two results from your own actions: survival, or non-survival. When all choices are categorized into this simplistic taxonomy, lifes decisions become either "Do" or "Dont".

3)
Quote:

He appeared at fairs, including the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis, and selling souvenirs and photographs of himself. However, he was not allowed to return to the land of his birth. He rode in the United States President Theodore Roosevelt's 1905 inaugural parade. He died of pneumonia at Fort Sill




yes, loads of dignity. self-esteem out the wazoo. Atleast pick someone like Quang Duc.....


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5520269 - 04/16/06 05:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

u want proof, well put on the gloves and lets hop in the ring, we'll see how self-esteem vs. no self esteem fairs. then u can have your proof.

if you keep looking for proof in this world ur going to be sadly disappointed more time than not.

i dont know what your trying to say about my boy geronimo except that the white man fucked him over royally and took him out of his native environment by the barrel of a gun... i dont see how him selling trinkets to survive in his non native society has any relevance. please a try and make a little sense.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5520371 - 04/16/06 08:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

self-esteem knows to forgive -
pride destroys


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5520440 - 04/16/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fresh313 said:
u want proof, well put on the gloves and lets hop in the ring, we'll see how self-esteem vs. no self esteem fairs. then u can have your proof.

if you keep looking for proof in this world ur going to be sadly disappointed more time than not.

i dont know what your trying to say about my boy geronimo except that the white man fucked him over royally and took him out of his native environment by the barrel of a gun... i dont see how him selling trinkets to survive in his non native society has any relevance. please a try and make a little sense.




self-esteem and dignity go hand in hand right? Why doesnt my example of Geronimo not make sense in regards to the discussion?

Self-esteem isnt needed. It is a psychotherapy term which was created to label a certain aspect of human perception of themselves/reality. Just because it has a term, doesnt mean it is neccesssary. Here a little something I found on Wiki regarding self-esteem....

Quote:

Peer-reviewed research undertaken since then has not validated previous assumptions. Recent studies indicate that inflating students' self-esteem in and of itself has no positive effect on any objective aspect of their lives. One study has shown that inflating self-esteem by itself can actually decrease grades




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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5520465 - 04/16/06 09:08 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

For Aristotle, pride is a virtue. A virtue is the median point on a continuum between vices of deficiency and excess. Courage, for example, is the virtue occupying the median point on a continuum between cowardice and rash foolhardiness. The coward achieves little, and the foolhardy man dies in his youth. The man of courage however is effective in his endeavors.

Generosity is another virtue on a continuum between vices of excess and deficiency. The miser hordes his excess, the person who gives too much finds himself unable to provide for his own needs, but the generous man keeps enough for himself and gives from his excess.
Virtue is all about finding the golden middle way.

Pride is said to be the virtue occupying the median point between thinking too highly of oneself and thinking to lowly of one's self. Naturally to make this kind of judgment, one must compare himself to the persons around him and determine his social status. He will compare himself to rulers and wealthy men, to beggars and slaves, and to all in between. The person who accurately judges his status (avoiding excess or deficiency), and acts according to that judgment exercises the virtue of pride; he will defer to those above him, deal confidently with his peer group, and take no caca from his inferiors.

The only difference between the Greek virtue of Pride and the Christian virtue of humility, is that the Christian includes Jesus Christ in the set of persons to whom he compares himself. Being truly man, Jesus is one of those with whom a person must compare himself when judging his position in society. Yet as truly God, Jesus towers so far above that in comparison all other men are as dirt. Hence the term "humility" from the Greek "humus" (dirt).

The God-Man, Jesus the Christ, makes infinitely lopsided the continuum where pride occupies the golden mean. When all other men are as dirt compared to Christ, all men take on a radical equality. When one makes the accurate assessment of himself as radically equal to other men in his radical inferiority to Christ, he exercises the virtue of humility.

Humility and pride booth claim to occupy the virtuous middle point on the same continuum. However, that continuum looks different depending upon who is included in the set of those to whom one must compare himself.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: shroomydan]
    #5520486 - 04/16/06 09:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

For Aristotle, pride is a virtue. A virtue is the median point on a continuum between vices of deficiency and excess. Courage, for example, is the virtue occupying the median point on a continuum between cowardice and rash foolhardiness. The coward achieves little, and the foolhardy man dies in his youth. The man of courage however is effective in his endeavors.

Generosity is another virtue on a continuum between vices of excess and deficiency. The miser hordes his excess, the person who gives too much finds himself unable to provide for his own needs, but the generous man keeps enough for himself and gives from his excess.
Virtue is all about finding the golden middle way.

Pride is said to be the virtue occupying the median point between thinking too highly of oneself and thinking to lowly of one's self. Naturally to make this kind of judgment, one must compare himself to the persons around him and determine his social status. He will compare himself to rulers and wealthy men, to beggars and slaves, and to all in between. The person who accurately judges his status (avoiding excess or deficiency), and acts according to that judgment exercises the virtue of pride; he will defer to those above him, deal confidently with his peer group, and take no caca from his inferiors.



Exactamente, my well-versed philosopher. :thumbup:




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5520635 - 04/16/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Perhaps that balance of pride and humility might be described as "accurate self-assessment." I believe it is possible to view one's accomplishments and errors with the intention of understanding, rather than judging.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Veritas]
    #5520643 - 04/16/06 10:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Perhaps that balance of pride and humility might be described as "accurate self-assessment."  I believe it is possible to view one's accomplishments and errors with the intention of understanding, rather than judging.



Well spoken! :thumbup:

Welcome back, btw!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5520983 - 04/16/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You are simply spiritually inverted - like the pentagram with one point down.
Pride is symbolized by Lucifer in the West, so why not simply affirm the fallen angel that symbolizes your stance? After all, attacking mystics (a spiritual stance) from an apparently secular, worldly, money-acquisition stance is apples-to-oranges. YOUR spiritual position is clearly 'Luciferian,' so try being consistant and clear at the same time. Oh...but that would require a committment to honesty, which means truth...not Luciferian at all.

Humility should not be confused with co-dependence, neither is a dictionary definition very subtle in most cases (e.g., pity and compassion are cross-referenced, but they are quite different). Humility requires love of self as well as others. Neither does a humble spirit prevent achievement in life, unless you are merely responding to ravenously hungry materialists who employ ruthlessness in their business dealings.

Selfishness is the equivalent of pride. It's opposite is selflessness which is the equivalent of love. I though everyone knew that. Happy Easter.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5521577 - 04/16/06 04:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If Lucifer were abolished for being a rationally selfish, rationally prideful person - then mark me down as a card-carrying Luciferian! If advocating self-love as a prime-mover makes me Satan in your eyes, then Satanic I am. If refusing to live like a meek, apologetic animal for the sake of others makes me a Devil, then so be it.


:satansmoking:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5521627 - 04/16/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You keep associating humility with self-hate. You say you have self-love, but in what sense? When I think of self-love in a meek sense, I think of compassion for one's self when it is duly noted. Nothing wrong with that. I think you're confusing having a healthy self-esteem with some kind of self-styled perma-fortitude (and it's the meek who are supposedly weak?) But what use is pride, when it only produces self-centered actions, but more importantly, self-centered thoughts and world-views?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Basilides]
    #5521698 - 04/16/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What about having pride in one's compassionate regard for others, eh? :lol:

Those who denounce those with a sense of pride are usually dealing with a sense of lack themselves. Its like the pissed off person who thinks the world is out to get them, and they pass by the grinning optimistic who is creating their own reality and is enjoying the experience of doing so... they want to wipe the smirk right off of their face! How dare you feel good about yourself and go forth and accomplish things when I feel like shit!! :mad:

I think that pretty much sums it up. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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