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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Pride: The Crown of Virtues
    #5514388 - 04/13/06 11:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

From dictionary.com:

Humility:

n.
The quality or condition of being humble.


Humble:

adj.
1) Marked by meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit; not arrogant or prideful.
2) Showing deferential or submissive respect: a humble apology.
3) Low in rank, quality, or station; unpretentious or lowly: a humble cottage.

tr.v.
1) To curtail or destroy the pride of; humiliate.
2) To cause to be meek or modest in spirit.
3) To give a lower condition or station to; abase. See Synonyms at degrade


Humility is claimed to be a moral virtue in certain ethical systems. Humility is the quality or condition of being meek and submissive. Since virtues are guides to actions, humility as a virtue asks that you act pathetic, lowly, and ignoble. True humility requires you to believe it.

Humility is the opposite of pride. As opposed to the crown of virtues, humility is the poison of virtues. Every act of virtue is cause for scorn, because you are attempting to be good. Instead of accepting yourself as a worm, you are trying to be human. This is a great sin in many ethical systems. If you are happy about who you are, you will want to live for yourself. This is clearly unacceptable in ethical systems, such as altruism, where you are to sacrifice yourself for others. Pride gets in the way of sacrifice. Only humility serves that end.

Humility is hatred of oneself. It is the ultimate self-sacrifice. It is the sacrifice of one's ego. Raising humility to the status of a virtue is the ultimate inversion of morality. It is twisting what should be one's guide to life into a force bent on destroying one's life. By claiming it a virtue, your integrity is turned against you, and your purpose and strength are used to destroy yourself.


Now let's look at Pride:

Dictionary.com:

n.
1) A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.
2) Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.

"Pride, then, seems to be a sort of crown of the virtues; for it makes them greater, and it is not found without them."
Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, c. 350 B.C.

Pride is the virtue of respecting oneself. It is a human need to think highly of oneself. Without it, one would have no reason to trust one's ability to live. One would have no reason to accept that one's life is worthy of living.

Pride is often confused with arrogance. Both seem to evaluate oneself highly. The difference is fundamental, though. Pride is a rational evaluation of oneself. Arrogance is not. Pride requires one to think highly of one's accomplishments and abilities. But the accomplishments and abilities need to be worthy of the praise. Without them matching, the false pride will lead to self-hate when reality undermines the attempted illusion. If one's abilities are not as good as one would like to pretend, it is just a matter of time before they are genuinely tested, and the results will destroy the flimsy self-esteem.

True pride, on the other hand, is rational. It has the secondary consequence of making an person want to improve himself in order to feel greater pride. This secondary effect, though, is not the reason for accepting pride as a virtue. Pride is virtuous because one needs it to live. It is the pillar the supports one's mind. Without it, one would constantly question one's ability to make rational judgments. It would undercut reason, man's primary means of survival.


You hear the mystics all the time raving about how morally superior it is to be meek, submissive, read: humble read: humility.
In reality, there is not ever any earthly reason to live your life like some meek animal, ready to sacrifice oneself at the mercy of another's whims, of another's laziness, of another's malevolence.
You will hear mystics refer to certain communities that hold humility as a virtue, and imply that other communities who hold selfishness, pride and individualism as virtues are evildoers of mankind. Of course, all one needs to do is look at the ultimate repercussions, the ultimate consequences of both sides and see for themselves who are truly the achievers, the builders, the advancers of mankind as we know it.

Look at what has become one of the greatest icons of our American, Capitalist and Individualist society: Bill Gates.
I'm most certainly glad Bill Gates didn't buy into any of that mystic-garbage about humility being morally superior to pride! Bill Gates is admired and criticized by many for his aggressive and competitive approach to business, but look at the phenomenal amount of philanthropic contribution to mankind he has contributed through his nearly unfathomable wealth alone. Some experts even predict that Gates will ultimately be known more for what he's doing to improve world health than for what he does in the computer industry.

Next time you hear a mystic espouse some contradictory, malevolent tripe of humility being morally superior to pride, ask yourself: What would the world be like without the Gates, the Vanderbilts, the Carnegies, the Rockefellers, the Buffets, the Davisons, the Trumps, the Allens, the Dells, the Soros... Ask yourself, what would you accomplish in your life, if you were to destroy the crown of your very virtues? What would your life be like, if you were to be chained down by the solidified weight of meekness, submissivness and humility, like a ball and chain, where the wings of your mind should've flourished?

You only have one brain. You only have one body. You only have one life, and it is an end in itself. What comes from accepting this?

With that said, I'm off to return to my life of productivity and achievement.


:hatsoff:


--------------------
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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5514491 - 04/14/06 12:15 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Bill gates has pride in his work. But he is also humble because even though he is happy to have wealth, he would rather not consider himself before others so he gives it away.

Am I wrong? Isn't it possible to be proud, but humble?

You can be proud and use that as strength to acheive. Then you can also be humble and accept that you are simply a man doing what he does. Paradox or bad logic? =x


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5514563 - 04/14/06 12:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It's true that there can be cases whereby One has conscientously practiced industriousness & thriftiness and as a result, has proudly achieved wealth - yet, feels the irrational need to be apologetic for achieving such greatness and as a result, may often compulsively give away his wealth. In other words, yes, it is possible for One to have conflicting dynamics within their ethical premises.

But in reality, One can be quite prideful, selfish and rational in their motives for philanthropy. Such is often the case with businesses. "Do Good? Do Business? No, Do Both!" Doing good for society helps companies do well for themselves.


I'm reminded of why Batman Begins is one of my favorite movies of all time.
Batman is the antithesis of your entire sick, parasitical, loot&leech-the-productive, blame-the-victim-not-the-criminal, sacrifice-the-individual-to-the-collective-gang view of human nature and society.

In the form of a mythic pop hero, Batman Begins presents a heroic, self-assertive and unapologetic view of human potential, individual self-responsibility and larger-than-life entrepreneurship. Batman is a fantasy archetype of heroic American individualism.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (04/14/06 01:03 AM)


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5514604 - 04/14/06 01:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Great Post Skorpivo
Be Proud : )


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: fresh313]
    #5514620 - 04/14/06 01:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think the only thing more worthless than giving worth to external things, is placing value and worth (or lack of) upon yourself in the abstract sense.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5514969 - 04/14/06 07:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
I think the only thing more worthless than giving worth to external things, is placing value and worth (or lack of) upon yourself in the abstract sense.




Why yes, the fact that we give meaning to the world and to ourselves is worthless. :rolleyes:

Attributing worth is worthless? Now that makes a lot of sense. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5515119 - 04/14/06 08:35 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Pride leads one to be arrogant and post lots of meaningless threads about how wrong other people are.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5515348 - 04/14/06 09:54 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well, someday the passage of time will swallow Gates. If that doesn't make him meek, I don't know what will.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, Skorp, are you saying that being humble, meek, and grateful are problematic traits in people?

Please - if you're going to insist that pride does not equate to arrogance, then don't equate humility with self-hatred.

This is a very black and white view of human qualities.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: Basilides]
    #5515627 - 04/14/06 11:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nice reply Bas!

A lot of what is described under the word pride and humble COMBINED is what I would just equate with having a HEALTHY self esteem.

The humble side in the balance is what keeps a healthy self esteem from becoming arrogant, boastful, cocky, and developing superiority complexes, etc.

I can feel really good about passing my last TKD test and in my new belt rank, and yet, I have a long way to go to 9th degree black belt. That keeps me humble and yet I still feel good about achieving something new for myself.

Then I think of the high degree black belts and how the challenge for them is to NEVER have to come into a real life experience, where they would have to use their physical skills.

At first glance that sounds silly. Not really. I think of the obnoxious little kid who taunts the bigger boys and then runs away and the kid who is mild manored, cool to everyone and never once is moved to exercise his ability to wipe their face in the mud (when he easily could if he wanted too).

I'm not to sure where you meant to go with sharing your post Skorp and I am all for people developing healthy self esteems and realizing their potential. :thumbup: Not sure why you don't appreciate how humility tempers pride from becoming something ugly. Without it, it will and I think thats what some are attempting to highlight here and its probably because, they experienced it in themselves like I am going to share.

Like in the examples I gave, sometimes, realizing a potential is being able to realize a life of walking and speaking softly all the while carrying a giant ass stick behind you, that no one ever sees or knows is even there, except for yourself.:yesnod:

Mmmmm that's an ideal I strive to achieve. You'll never know it when I hit the mark, but you all know it when I fail at that. :blush:

I seem to like to walk around with big 2 by 4s and clunk people on the heads with them sometimes. I DON'T feel good about that aspect of myself very much. It's prideful BS is right and even reflective of a weakness, not a strength. Yecch I wish I could wash it all off of me and start fresh and new when I slip and fall in the mud, while pushing others faces in it.

I will continue gathering up 2x4s for myself (achieving) because it comes naturally to me to do that. I'll know I hit a healthy balanced place of being when I NEVER have to pull one out and around from behind me and use it against someone. Until I can realize what that is like, I haven't achieved Squat in the bigger scheme of things.

People with a spirit for life in life seem to achieve naturally and easily. When our SPIRIT is allowed to come through GREAT things can be achieved indeed. HOWEVER, if achievements to be proud of, are NOT tempered with grace and humility, they will turn to the ugliness of arrogance, airs of superiority, and boastful pride.

I think a balance of the two qualities is what is to be strived for as an ideal if our true beauty and strength is ever going to come through and be realized by ourselves and others. Pride without humility is just UGLY.

Ever know that feeling where say some people in a group are going (in other words and actions of course),"Look at me! I can do a summer sault." and you say, "Wonderful!" :smile: Another says, "Look at me! I can do a handstand." And you say, "Thats Awesome! :smile:" and another says, "Look at me! I can do a cart wheel", and you say, "That was Great! :smile:" all the while having ZERO desire to step in and show them you can do a a triple front handspring triple flip running lay up?

THAT'S when I think one truly has IT all together and has achieved something to feel good about and no one will ever know it but them.:japsmile:

Good topic for discussion Skorp! :thumbup:

:peace: :heart:


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5515753 - 04/14/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Scorpivo. I ask you to listen to some of this Buckmister Fuller Lecture. He gives his idea, without using the word pride, that pride has the evolutionary function of allowing humans to deal with their own faults. It's toward the beginning, and the entire lecture is so greatly interesting that I just think it good stuff to listen to anyway. There's a transcript and audio.
http://memeticdrift.net/bucky/


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5515772 - 04/14/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So what value is there in staying alive? If you consider external things worthless, why do you own them? Is it all the same to you if you throw out all your stuff and kill yourself?

I doubt it. You say you don't place worth on external things or on yourself, but you're just lying to yourself.


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InvisibleI_was_the_walrus
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5516040 - 04/14/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Scorpivo:

How is a mystic to preach his word toward me regarding humility without having some sense of pride of his own? He'd have to have that pride in is knowledge to preach it confidently.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5516071 - 04/14/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Since you want my opinion, I think this argument is all over an ambiguity of the definition of the word humble. People who oppose humility consider the word humble to mean low in status, deferential, or submissive. People who support humility consider the word humble to mean "not arrogant"

It's pretty much summed up by that, in my opinion. I feel am for "not being arrogant", and against people trying to be low in status, deferential, or submissive. So am I for or against the concept of humility?

Just depends on the usage.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5516100 - 04/14/06 01:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RedNucleus said:
So what value is there in staying alive?



there isn't any value to staying alive. It just is. Why feel the need to place an illusory number or rank to it?

Quote:

If you consider external things worthless, why do you own them?



notice I said external concepts, but I dont personally place value and worth upon them. The worth that we place on these things, only causes stress and worry about loosing that imaginary worth that we have placed there.
Quote:

Is it all the same to you if you throw out all your stuff and kill yourself?




no, because that would be placing a value of worthlessness. Im far from perfect, but I strive towards being free of these imaginary values: as you can see, I used the word "Worthless" in my original post.

Things, life, concepts, just are, and whatever value, spin, belief, or worth we place on them is just a by-product of human perception.

I doubt it. You say you don't place worth on external things or on yourself, but you're just lying to yourself.




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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5516126 - 04/14/06 01:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I need to think.

btw you said external things not external concepts


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Namaste


Edited by RedNucleus (04/14/06 01:53 PM)


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5516143 - 04/14/06 01:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Value is subjective. Therefore you cannot claim that it is a fact that nothing has value. I understand and agree with your opinion, in a way, but I would phrase it like this: Value does not exist outside of the boundaries of the human mind.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5516244 - 04/14/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RedNucleus said:
I need to think.

btw you said external things not external concepts




yeah, you are right, I could have sworn I had typed "concepts", but it can be things, as long as you dont confuse monetary value and personal value.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5516253 - 04/14/06 02:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RedNucleus said:
Value does not exist outside of the boundaries of the human mind.




Yes, this is exactly what I mean.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5516729 - 04/14/06 05:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Pride is one sure way to piss people off(obviously you dont care though), Humility is far wiser. Just because someone is humble does not mean that he is weak. Far from it. the humble man knows himself and doesnt need pride. Pride is a crutch for the weak minded, a self esteem booster if you will. Pride is love of the self. if you need that then good for you, but me I tend to save my love for others. I dont need to praise myself to feel happy. Each to his own of course.

blaze2


--------------------
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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Pride: The Crown of Virtues [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5517382 - 04/14/06 10:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Quote:

RedNucleus said:
Value does not exist outside of the boundaries of the human mind.




Yes, this is exactly what I mean.



That is true only for the value which the human tries to utilize for himself :wink:

Self-esteem is is a necessary good which existing in the realm of egoistical truth and love, while pride without humility is a gross ugly sin, existing within the borders of lie and ignorance, based on falseness of others and its own concept.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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