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Alex213
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Why hasn't Bush been hanged?
#5511081 - 04/13/06 03:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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At Nuremberg German leaders were hanged for ?the planning, preparation, initiation, or waging of a war of aggression?.
George Bush planned and initiated a war of aggression in Iraq. Same crime so why wasn't Bush hanged like his German counterparts?
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Aldous
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5511108 - 04/13/06 04:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Haha, that reminds me of what Noam Chomsky said about TV news.
It was along these lines: If I'm on the TV news and I say we need a stronger military to defend ourselves against foreign threats [or any other often-heard and 'acceptable' statement], that's all right, I can say it in 2 minutes. But if I say: "If we applied the standards of the Nuremberg trial to the US, every president since WWII should be hanged", it's going to take me a lot more than the 2 minutes allowed to explain what I mean.
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daimyo
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5511550 - 04/13/06 09:14 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Bush should be hanged for authorizing a leak of classified information. That's treason in my book.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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Rono
DSYSB since '01


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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: daimyo]
#5511597 - 04/13/06 09:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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So we all agree that Bush should be hung.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Silversoul
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5511684 - 04/13/06 09:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There was no international law at the time of the Nuremburg trials. The only reason they were held is so that the change from Nazi to Allied rule over Germany would have an air of legitimacy.
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Aldous
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Silversoul]
#5511890 - 04/13/06 10:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well then, let's hope they give the next regime change the same air of legitimacy...
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Aldous]
#5511956 - 04/13/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Aldous said: Well then, let's hope they give the next regime change the same air of legitimacy...
We already have that. It's called an election.
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Asante
Mage


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Posts: 86,795
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5511979 - 04/13/06 11:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think the real question is: Why isn't Bush shot at every day of the week?
Is the world a much safer place, and humanity less evil than alleged.. Or... Is there a secret police that is so thorough that none of these numerous attempts on the President's life have a chance to surface to public awareness?
I think that's the real question. What we are seeing (or rather: not seeing) is completely improbable from a statistic point of view. That's the thought that got me thinking there might be more than meets the eye.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Redstorm
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Asante]
#5511997 - 04/13/06 11:28 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If there was an assassination attempt, odds are it woould be during a public outing. Something like that would be near impossible to cover up.
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Aldous
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Silversoul]
#5512009 - 04/13/06 11:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I was talking about regime change, not a mere change of the ruling party.
It's long overdue...
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
#5512011 - 04/13/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Like tossing a grenade while at an old soviet republic or something....
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5512015 - 04/13/06 11:35 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: At Nuremberg German leaders were hanged for ?the planning, preparation, initiation, or waging of a war of aggression?.
George Bush planned and initiated a war of aggression in Iraq. Same crime so why wasn't Bush hanged like his German counterparts?
Obviously because america is (so far) the victors. If/when the jihads take over america, then he probably will be, if he is still alive by then.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: DieCommie]
#5512202 - 04/13/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex213 Stated:George Bush planned and initiated a war of aggression in Iraq. Same crime so why wasn't Bush hanged like his German counterparts?
To say that the Iraq war is similar to the atrocities of World War 2 is baseless. To even compare the two is foolhardily. For you to imply that American Officers are committing genocide, or allowing it to take place is disgusting.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/meetthedefendants.html
The above men encompass the major defendants of the trial, committed war crimes. This was an INTERNATIONAL MILITARY TRIBUNAL. The trials we just, since it was part of the LONDON AGREEMENT of 1945 and all Allied members agreed.
Since there is no evidence of conspiracy, crimes against peace, war crimes and crimes against humanity (the charges at the Nuremberg Trials) or a push to have a trail to begin with, this will remain a pipe dream for you.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Asante
Mage


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Posts: 86,795
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
#5512264 - 04/13/06 12:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
If there was an assassination attempt, odds are it woould be during a public outing. Something like that would be near impossible to cover up.
Thats the attempt. Perhaps things are snuffed out in the planning stage. We know communication media are tapped (echelon) but we don't know how efficient the information can be utilized.
But perhaps the world is a far safer place than it gets credit for 
Back ontopic:
Quote:
Alex213 Stated: George Bush planned and initiated a war of aggression in Iraq. Same crime so why wasn't Bush hanged like his German counterparts?
Thats an easy one! To quote a nazi who was tried at Nuremberg: "The winners have no war criminals"
Who was hanged for the firebombing of Dresden? Tokyo? The nuclear attacks on Heroshima and Nagasaki? The apathy towards the concentration camps?
"The winners have no war criminals"
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
Edited by Asante (04/13/06 01:03 PM)
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gluke bastid
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Rono]
#5512432 - 04/13/06 01:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rono said: So we all agree that Bush should be hung.
Like a horse
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy

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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5512546 - 04/13/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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because it would make dick cheney POTUS...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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whiterasta
Day careobserver

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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Asante]
#5512617 - 04/13/06 03:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think that's the real question. What we are seeing (or rather: not seeing) is completely improbable from a statistic point of view. That's the thought that got me thinking there might be more than meets the eye.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
This is no joke Wiccan.These people are IN POWER and intend to stay there.IMO this is the fourth Reich resulting from our importation of significant policy wonks from the ww2 german war ministry.What IS apparent is that they have delusions of Empire.They have the backing of immense fiscal resources. The individual is a marketable collateral and Orwells neverending war has begun. paranoid fucker ,eh?  WR
-------------------- To old for this place
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: whiterasta]
#5512628 - 04/13/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Enjoy your wank
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5513229 - 04/13/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Saddam Hussein will be hung and Bush will enjoy his retirement in glorious luxury.
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moog
Stranger

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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5513311 - 04/13/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's not very nice to wish death upon your fellow human brethren.
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Konnrade
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5513708 - 04/13/06 08:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: At Nuremberg German leaders were hanged for ?the planning, preparation, initiation, or waging of a war of aggression?.
George Bush planned and initiated a war of aggression in Iraq. Same crime so why wasn't Bush hanged like his German counterparts?
Ok, now I understand that a lot of people can't help but blow things out of proportions once they get the idea in their head that they really hate a politician, but that statement is silly. I mean, it's actually folly.
1- In america, we don't kill people unless they've literally killed another person with their own hands. 2- The nuremburg trials had to do with people who were willfull participants in a government that intentionally killed civilians, and went out of their way to commit genocide. 3- George W. Bush is not the worst president in american history. So far, we've had worse presidents, and even they weren't relegated to being executed by an impulsive lynch mob. 4- You, on the other hand, are suggesting the unjust execution of a politician. How are you any better than him, at that point? Even if he actually were as bad a person as you somehow beleive he is, you don't look much better when you say he should be hung.
When you think about politics, you need to be careful to think about things logically, instead of just following your impulses and emotions. I'm sure a lot of Bush's political rivals would like you to beleive in these extremes, because you're more likely to vote for them if you do... but perhaps you should think with a more level head.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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Alex213
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5514613 - 04/14/06 01:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Since there is no evidence of conspiracy, crimes against peace, war crimes and crimes against humanity (the charges at the Nuremberg Trials) or a push to have a trail to begin with, this will remain a pipe dream for you.
No evidence of crimes against peace? What do you call planning and waging aggressive war?
Here's the crimes. Can you tell me which one George Bush hasn't been guilty of in Iraq?
(a) Crimes against Peace: namely, planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances, or participation in a Common Plan or Conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing; (b) War Crimes: namely, violations of the laws or customs of war. Such violations shall include, but not be limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity; (c) Crimes against Humanity: namely, murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war,14 or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of domestic law of the country where perpetrated.
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Alex213
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Konnrade]
#5514625 - 04/14/06 01:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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- The nuremburg trials had to do with people who were willfull participants in a government that intentionally killed civilians, and went out of their way to commit genocide.
As I've pointed out the Nuremberg trials were about people who planned and waged aggressive war. Look at the crimes against peace and tell me where George Bush doesn't qualify for execution.
- You, on the other hand, are suggesting the unjust execution of a politician.
So are you saying the Nuremburg trials were unjust? Read the definition of a crime against peace which german leaders were hanged for. Are you denying George Bush has committed exactly the same crime?
but perhaps you should think with a more level head.
Sit down with your level head and explain to me why George Bush can commit the same crime as his german counterparts and not be hanged as they were.
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Konnrade
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5514681 - 04/14/06 02:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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People have allready explained what you are trying to say... and you also somehow horribly misunderstood part of what I said...
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Konnrade]
#5515365 - 04/14/06 09:59 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex213 likes to revise history to fit his biased viewpoint on the war of Iraq. Keep in mind, that even in jest, referring to the hanging of President Bush, is not in my opinion,protected speech.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (04/14/06 10:05 AM)
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5515374 - 04/14/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Are you sure? I thought all speech was covered other than speech that would lead to immediate lawless action.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5515384 - 04/14/06 10:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wouldn't the new war in Iraq just be the end to a cease-fire created at the end of the first Gulf War? I'm not sure I support this argument, but it is one way to say Bush didn't start a war of aggression. He was just continuing one.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
#5515391 - 04/14/06 10:06 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There was an armistice after the first Gulf War. Saddam broke this, thus the conflict began again.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5515407 - 04/14/06 10:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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He is borderline on a threat, so its a judgment call. It is clear to say however, that it does attract attention to this forum that could be detrimental. You think that no one in the government monitors those types of comments? Not in the days of the Patriot Act.....
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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ACN45
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5516015 - 04/14/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: He is borderline on a threat, so its a judgment call. It is clear to say however, that it does attract attention to this forum that could be detrimental. You think that no one in the government monitors those types of comments? Not in the days of the Patriot Act.....
You are sticking up for a government that you are obviously scared of. I think the Patriot Act is enough of a breach of the constitution for Bush to get hanged. He is setting the standard for corruption that hopefully will be stopped after his departure from office.
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Phred
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: ACN45]
#5516081 - 04/14/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think the Patriot Act is enough of a breach of the constitution for Bush to get hanged.
Even assuming for the sake of argument that parts of the Patriot Act are unconstitutional (and to date we have exactly zero appellate court rulings saying this is the case), why do you believe Bush should be hanged for it? Bush didn't write the act. He didn't introduce the act to Congress. Congress passed -- OVERWHELMINGLY -- the Act.
If you want to advocate hanging all Congressmen who voted for it, that's a different story.
Phred
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
#5516567 - 04/14/06 04:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: Wouldn't the new war in Iraq just be the end to a cease-fire created at the end of the first Gulf War?
This is 100% correct, which cease fire contract was not abided to by Saddam.
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5516747 - 04/14/06 05:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Saddam never was one to abide by... well... anything.
The only rules saddam followed were guidelines about being an efficient dictator.
When it came to international affairs, I think he really enjoyed being a giant pain in the ass. Think about it, didn't he always seem to be TRYING to piss people off?
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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daimyo
Monticello

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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Konnrade]
#5516765 - 04/14/06 05:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't think he was trying to be a pain in the ass by getting rid of all the weapons of mass destruction. Unless he knew Bush wanted war and was just trying to throw a wrench in things.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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bukkake


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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5517515 - 04/14/06 11:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I wonder that myself. Scandal after scandal, lie after lie, and nothing. I am beginning to believe Americans are just fucking stupid. Sheep people.
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5517692 - 04/15/06 12:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex213 likes to revise history to fit his biased viewpoint on the war of Iraq. Keep in mind, that even in jest, referring to the hanging of President Bush, is not in my opinion,protected speech.
Presumably you're dodging the crimes against peace question because you know it's true.
And speaking of people who rewrite history, you're the one who claims there was such a thing as the invasion of Pearl Harbour.
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Alex213
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
#5517714 - 04/15/06 12:34 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wouldn't the new war in Iraq just be the end to a cease-fire created at the end of the first Gulf War? I'm not sure I support this argument, but it is one way to say Bush didn't start a war of aggression. He was just continuing one.
No, the ceasefire at the end of the first Gulf war was a UN resolution. Only the UN can decide whether this has been broken or not and what response they wish to make. They never felt an invasion of Iraq was justified.
Even Bush didn't argue "the ceasefire" angle because he knew no-one would take it seriously. The lies that Iraq had WMD were dreamed up so the war could be theoretically be described as "defensive".
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Alex213
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Konnrade]
#5518083 - 04/15/06 06:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Saddam never was one to abide by... well... anything.
You're missing the point. The invasion of Iraq wasn't a UN operation. It was US. Therefore it is irrelevant whether he abided or not.
Your argument is as silly as saying that because Israel hasn't abided by dozens of UN resolutions that gives any country in the world the right to invade them. Garbage.
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5518361 - 04/15/06 09:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Since Saddam Hussein violated the UN resolutions, it gave the US the right to invade Iraq.
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Alex213
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Luddite]
#5518656 - 04/15/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Are you serious? Israel has violated dozens of UN resolutions. Does that give any country the right to invade Israel?
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Konnrade
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5518663 - 04/15/06 11:14 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: Saddam never was one to abide by... well... anything.
You're missing the point. The invasion of Iraq wasn't a UN operation. It was US. Therefore it is irrelevant whether he abided or not.
Your argument is as silly as saying that because Israel hasn't abided by dozens of UN resolutions that gives any country in the world the right to invade them. Garbage.
I was just making small talk with that comment. It was tongue-in-cheek.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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daimyo
Monticello

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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Konnrade]
#5518673 - 04/15/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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As far as I'm concerned, every country in the world has the "right" to invade any other country they see fit.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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bukkake


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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Luddite]
#5518676 - 04/15/06 11:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Would you support an Iranian nuclear strike on Israel for being the leading violator of UN resolutions? Are the suicide bombings justified?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5518681 - 04/15/06 11:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There's a difference. Saddam agreed to abide by the resolutions levied against Iraq. Israel did not agree to abide by the resolutions levied against it.
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bukkake


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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5518684 - 04/15/06 11:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Is that your argument? I am having difficulty comprehending the logic behind it.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: bukkake]
#5518699 - 04/15/06 11:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
bukkake said: Is that your argument? I am having difficulty comprehending the logic behind it.
Note that I never said that I supported the sanctions against Iraq or that I supported the actions of Israel.
But, there is a difference when one agrees to do something and when one doesn't agree to do something. When one agrees to do something they are more obligated to do it in my opinion.
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Alex213
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5518701 - 04/15/06 11:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There's a difference. Saddam agreed to abide by the resolutions levied against Iraq.
Whatever. It's for the UN to decide if UN resolutions have been broken and what response should follow. Not George Bush.
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Redstorm
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5518737 - 04/15/06 11:35 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you view the matter) UN Resolutions means about as much as the UN does.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5518761 - 04/15/06 11:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: It's for the UN to decide if UN resolutions have been broken and what response should follow. Not George Bush.
Good point. It is stupid to say that "Saddam didn't obey UN resolutions" and then circumvent that same agency when it comes to deciding what to do about it. It does seem kind of hypocritical.
I still stand by my assertion that a person or a nation is more obligated to obey something if they agree to it as opposed to not agreeing to it.
And Redstorm is right. The UN is pathetic.
Edited by RandalFlagg (04/15/06 11:42 AM)
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Alex213
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
#5518762 - 04/15/06 11:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There's got to be some semblance of logic about it this tho. You can't use UN resolutions as an excuse to invade whoever you want. The whole idea of the UN in the first place is to get away from that.
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Redstorm
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5518773 - 04/15/06 11:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't agree with how we use the UN. If it were up to me, it wouldn't even exist.
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Konnrade
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
#5518848 - 04/15/06 12:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Redstorm said: Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you view the matter) UN Resolutions means about as much as the UN does.
Hehe...
this is a good point. The UN has about as much authority to police the world as I do
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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Redstorm
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Konnrade]
#5518858 - 04/15/06 12:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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You actually may have m ore power. At least you you are really determined to take somone out, you could hop on a plane, buy a gun in the foreign country, and pop the target.
In the UN, they have to debate for days and most likely any sort of action will get vetoed in the Security Council. Even if it doesn't, and a Resolution is created, it won't be enforced (or it will be selectively).
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
#5518865 - 04/15/06 12:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Now let's not diss the UN's authority too much. They have written some VERY stern letters before.
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daimyo
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5518870 - 04/15/06 12:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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Alex213
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
#5518931 - 04/15/06 12:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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You actually may have m ore power. At least you you are really determined to take somone out, you could hop on a plane, buy a gun in the foreign country, and pop the target.
I don't think it's quite as easy as that.
Maybe for Sir Tripalot it might be..
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Redstorm
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5518934 - 04/15/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, it may have been a bit of an exaggeration. You get the point, though.
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Konnrade
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5519056 - 04/15/06 01:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: You actually may have m ore power. At least you you are really determined to take somone out, you could hop on a plane, buy a gun in the foreign country, and pop the target.
I don't think it's quite as easy as that.
Maybe for Sir Tripalot it might be..
Well, it's not that easy of course... if it was then Castro would have already been killed 12 times before he hit the ground 
Still though, a rogue individual does technically have more ability to act than the UN does. Not only are they mired in a global-scale bureaucracy, but they were never actually given any real authority anyways. The worst they can do is ask nations to enact an embargo on someone. And the bad thing about that is that often times the embargo is ineffective against the regime, and just makes the general populace of the target nation descend into suffering instead
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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Alex213
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Konnrade]
#5519082 - 04/15/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The UN acted in the first gulf war didn't they?
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Redstorm
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5519143 - 04/15/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, but what did it accomplish?
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zappaisgod
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
#5519161 - 04/15/06 01:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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What did the UN accomplish? Nothing. The United States and several other nations did however prevent Iraq from occupying Kuwait.
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Konnrade
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
#5519230 - 04/15/06 02:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: The UN acted in the first gulf war didn't they?
Yes, yes they did. And they really didn't do anything.
Unfortunately, the UN is impotent by design. The UN is not a sovereign body, and it holds very limited authority, and even more limited powers by which it excercises that authority.
Really, the UN is mostly just a forum to promote diplomacy by bringing leaders together as part of a common association. It really doesn't have the elements in it's design to be an international police force like some people think it should be.
The UN's ability at the moment is to encourage peace. The UN itself cannot defend peace. Rather, the UN tries to motivate world leaders to take that upon themselves. It also gives them some semblance of authority to do so.
Of course, the UN does have a security force, but that security force does not belong to the UN. The UN security force is made up of soldiers from member nations who wear smurf hats. They're still soldiers of the countries they come from, they just happen to wear UN uniforms.
Now, I'll bring this back to Bush just so I'm not wandering too far off topic:
Bush, of course, acted without the approval of the UN. That doesn't in and of itself mean he was wrong (although there are good arguments about why he is wrong based upon other criteria). Acting without approval of the UN means ONLY that the other world leaders who are members of the UN did not approve of what he did. Their reasons may not have been necessarily altruistic. They are powerful politicians, each with their own agenda. Some of them may have disagreed for entirely selfish reasons. For example, perhaps they were afraid that if they supported Bush on this, that they would become subject to the same harsh criticism that has fallen upon Bush. By denying him their approval, they also avoid being associated with his mistakes and with the war in Iraq.
Now, I don't think the war in Iraq was necessarily a good idea. And, I don't think the strategy in Iraq has been the best. However, I don't feel that Bush is a criminal in this case. I think he may well be a bit incompetent, or somewhat impulsive, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he is evil or a criminal.
The war in iraq has created a decent sized mess, but it's not as bad as some previous wars have been. For US soldiers, the mortality seems to be at a record low. The enemy in Iraq is similar in many ways to the enemy that was faced in Vietnam. Many of the OpFor are not a literal military. They are people in civilian clothes who can blend in with innocent civilians. It is not easy to distinguish between the civilians and the enemy.
In vietnam, that scenario led to some truly nasty civilian casualties. It wasn't common for soldiers to get to the point where they started assuming everyone was the enemy. Some soldiers preferred to shoot civilians rather than take the chance of being ambushed.
In Iraq, this doesn't seem to be occurring to any significant extent. If it has, it hasn't been being reported. Back in vietnam, the media ate that sort of thing up. Reporters dug up a lot of dirt in vietnam despite the government's efforts to squelch it. If it was happening in iraq, reporters would find a way to break the news. It's probably safe to say that compared to vietnam the civilian losses have been far less significant.
And, of course, Bush does not want civilians to die. He's not an evil man. His problems stem from bad decisions, and perhaps partly from the bad decisions of some of the people he relies upon. Compare that to the people who were convicted at nuremberg. Many of those people knowingly participated in actions that were solely designed to kill as many civilians as possible. They were also part of a police-state that openly broadcasted an intention to take over the world by whatever means necessary.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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Alex213
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
#5520232 - 04/16/06 03:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, but what did it accomplish?
Getting Saddam out of Kuwait?
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Alex213
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Konnrade]
#5520250 - 04/16/06 04:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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However, I don't feel that Bush is a criminal in this case.
I may not feel someone is a criminal for smoking dope either but if that's what the law says then you are. He's planned and waged an aggressive war. At Nuremberg german leaders were hanged for exactly that.
If it was happening in iraq, reporters would find a way to break the news.
I think the media is a lot less aware of what's happening in Iraq than Vietnam. At least in Vietnam you had journalists with some degree of independence. In Iraq they're all embedded and see only what the US army wants them to see. Look at the articles Phred posts by Ralph Peters - he rides around with US army patrols and thinks he knows what's going on in Iraq.
And, of course, Bush does not want civilians to die
Then he shouldn't have invaded Iraq. Because if you invade a place like Iraq you are going to slaughter and maim thousands upon thousands of innocent people.
He's not an evil man
I don't know if he's evil or not but you couldn't call slaughtering thousands of innocent people on the basis of lies the act of a "good" man could you?
Many of those people knowingly participated in actions that were solely designed to kill as many civilians as possible.
But the crime they were charged with was planning and waging aggressive war. Bush planned and waged a war of aggression. Iraq was no threat to the US whatsoever. He chose to go there.
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bukkake


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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Konnrade]
#5520864 - 04/16/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Konnrade said: And, of course, Bush does not want civilians to die. He's not an evil man.
Do you really believe so? You believe a wealthy, social Darwinist Christian oil man took into account the mortality of civilians while ordering his war of imperialism?
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zappaisgod
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: bukkake]
#5520883 - 04/16/06 12:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Do you really believe so? You believe a wealthy, social Darwinist Christian oil man took into account the mortality of civilians while ordering his war of imperialism? "

This is why no one will ever have to worry about the cumdrenched having any power to dictate policy. They negate themselves.
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bukkake


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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5521013 - 04/16/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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That made very little sense.
To the competent observer, the war of Iraq had very little to do with threat but much more to do with exploitation and colonialism, and imperialism. What was the point of rushing in again? No one in Europe feared him while our supposed " liberal " media whipped the country into hysteria about a hydrogen bomb landing at our doorstep by noon.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: bukkake]
#5521278 - 04/16/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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bukkake said: That made very little sense.
To the competent observer, the war of Iraq had very little to do with threat but much more to do with exploitation and colonialism, and imperialism.
bullshit
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What was the point of rushing in again?
Over a decade of ceasefire violations is not exactly rushing
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No one in Europe
Britain still stands behind it's assertion he was seeking yellowcake in Niger. France and Russia were bought off. Germany won't do anything and Spain and Italy were with us along with Britiain.
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feared him while our supposed " liberal " media whipped the country into hysteria about a hydrogen bomb landing at our doorstep by noon.
I must have missed that. Nonsense like this is why you and your ilk will remain utterly without influence.
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bukkake


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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5521386 - 04/16/06 03:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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bullshit
Drunk? Intoxicated? Pissed? Iraq is America's new satellite in the Middle East.
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Over a decade of ceasefire violations is not exactly rushing
Always convenient to not acknowledge the spying and meddling within the borders of sovereign states.
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Britain still stands behind it's assertion he was seeking yellowcake in Niger. France and Russia were bought off. Germany won't do anything and Spain and Italy were with us along with Britiain.
And Britain has always been as full of shit as America has been. And? They were all wrong or lying. What are you getting at?
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I must have missed that. Nonsense like this is why you and your ilk will remain utterly without influence.
You must not have ever turned on your television or read a newspaper to see masses of bloodthirsty warmongering Americans pre-invasion with vengeance on the brain for 9-11 and destroying AQ.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: bukkake]
#5521464 - 04/16/06 03:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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1. Sure it is. Whatever you say. Yep, Iraq's a satellite. Whatever works for you.
2. They lost most of the rights of a "sovereign state" when they invaded another one and acquiesced to a cease fire agreement. Or were you getting at something else. It's hard to tell what your absurd assertions are in reference to.
3. You said "no one in Europe". I said you lie and proved it. Or has Great Britiain wisely relocated itself to a continent with a future?
4. I saw some TV and read lots of newspapers. Your characterization is absurd nonsense. Just because you'd be happy to bend over and keep taking it in the ass from these nutjobs doesn't mean that those of us who won't are bloodthirsty psychopaths. Nor was there much hysteria mongering over this issue.
It's pretty clear who the bloodthirsty psychopaths are and it's pretty clear who the apologists and cowards who would take it are. Which is why, to get back to my original point, you and your ilk will never be more than an annoyance at most.
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bukkake


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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5521834 - 04/16/06 05:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
They lost most of the rights of a "sovereign state" when they invaded another one and acquiesced to a cease fire agreement.
I must consult dictionary.com for this one to prove your ridiculous assertions wrong.
Self-governing; independent
Of or relating to a body politic or to an internally autonomous territorial or political unit constituting a federation under one government
By this definition, Iraq was most certainly a sovereign state. And, if we are to go by your definition, America is no longer a sovereign state for invading Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Haiti, and whoever else I cannot mention in the same breathe due to lack of oxygen, though the list is paramount. If you would like a more expansive definition of state or sovereignty, I will gladly mail you one of my dated Political Science textbooks.
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You said "no one in Europe". I said you lie and proved it. Or has Great Britiain wisely relocated itself to a continent with a future?
I was referring to the populations of European countries. I would not define this country as having a future, either.
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I saw some TV and read lots of newspapers. Your characterization is absurd nonsense. Just because you'd be happy to bend over and keep taking it in the ass from these nutjobs doesn't mean that those of us who won't are bloodthirsty psychopaths. Nor was there much hysteria mongering over this issue.
I never felt a phallus, then or now. The country, then, was overwhelmingly in support of a nonsensical war. It is no coincidence the outrageous for-profit media we have whipped the country into a warmongering fervor. The drumming of support was irrational and still is.
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it's pretty clear who the apologists and cowards who would take it are.
What is it we were taking from Saddam Hussein and Iraq from this side of the Atlantic while he was conducting his authoritarianism?
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Luddite
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: bukkake]
#5522364 - 04/16/06 07:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Luddite]
#5522400 - 04/16/06 08:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Luddite]
#5522421 - 04/16/06 08:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Luddite]
#5522434 - 04/16/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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COUNTRY .... AVERAGE IQ
Bahrain................. 83 Egypt ................... 83 Iran .................... 84 Iraq .................... 87 Israel .................. 94 Jordan ................. 87 Kuwait ................ 83 Lebanon .............. 86 Oman .................. 83 Qatar .................. 78 Saudi Arabia ......... 83 Syria ................... 87 Turkey ................. 90 United Arab Emirates 83
http://baconeatingatheistjew.blogspot.com/2006/02/middle-east-literacy-and-iq-rates.html
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Redstorm
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Luddite]
#5522690 - 04/16/06 09:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Great Satan?
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
#5523749 - 04/17/06 08:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: Great Satan?
It has to be him.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: bukkake]
#5525984 - 04/17/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
bukkake said:
Quote:
They lost most of the rights of a "sovereign state" when they invaded another one and acquiesced to a cease fire agreement.
I must consult dictionary.com for this one to prove your ridiculous assertions wrong.
Self-governing; independent
Of or relating to a body politic or to an internally autonomous territorial or political unit constituting a federation under one government
By this definition, Iraq was most certainly a sovereign state. And, if we are to go by your definition, America is no longer a sovereign state for invading Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Haiti, and whoever else I cannot mention in the same breathe due to lack of oxygen, though the list is paramount. If you would like a more expansive definition of state or sovereignty, I will gladly mail you one of my dated Political Science textbooks.
You are once again exposing your reading comprehension skills for what they are. I said they signed away some of their rights as a sovereign nation in the cease fire agreement, which is 100% correct. Please illustrate for us where the US has done so. Thank you.
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You said "no one in Europe". I said you lie and proved it. Or has Great Britiain wisely relocated itself to a continent with a future?
I was referring to the populations of European countries. I would not define this country as having a future, either.
You said "no one". Tony Blair is a person. Tony Blair is in Europe. Ergo, your statement is a lie. And a foolish one at that.
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I saw some TV and read lots of newspapers. Your characterization is absurd nonsense. Just because you'd be happy to bend over and keep taking it in the ass from these nutjobs doesn't mean that those of us who won't are bloodthirsty psychopaths. Nor was there much hysteria mongering over this issue.
I never felt a phallus, then or now. The country, then, was overwhelmingly in support of a nonsensical war. It is no coincidence the outrageous for-profit media we have whipped the country into a warmongering fervor. The drumming of support was irrational and still is.
For various reasons I do not think that you are in any position to determine rationality or nonsense. You have devolved into the "anyone who disagrees with me is brainwashed" fallacy. This is why you will never be of any influence. I wanted this war and I wanted it finished in 1990. Marys said "no, give him a chance." Not me. I think it is you who doesn't read the papers, or at least not the NYTimes and the WaPo and the LATimes, because they sure didn't beat the drum for Bush and his policy
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it's pretty clear who the apologists and cowards who would take it are.
What is it we were taking from Saddam Hussein and Iraq from this side of the Atlantic while he was conducting his authoritarianism?
Him specificly, threats. From someone with a history of acting on them, and the wherewithal to continue and to further assist those who would do us harm. He was on probation and he violated his probation. Further, as has been shown many times by their own statements, we are perceived as pussies unwilling to do the tough work to protect ourselves (I do believe you have ranted about fat American pussies elsewhere). This by itself makes us a target. Unfortunately the out of power pussies are still barking and emboldening those who would do us harm. Oh well. We'll have to get hit again and then kick their ass again and you and your ilk still won't learn.
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Rogues_Pierre
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5528395 - 04/18/06 06:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Bush obviously believed there were WMD in Iraq. Every country in the world including Iraq believed they had WMD. When the WMD was moved to Syria with the help of the Russians the leftists took the opportunity to attack what they thought was the leader of the capitalist world and claimed Bush lied. In reality, the communists want more slave laborers for their gullags and attacking the US was their means to achieve their evil goals.
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Edited by Rogues_Pierre (04/18/06 06:43 AM)
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Rogues_Pierre
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Rogues_Pierre]
#5528402 - 04/18/06 06:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Redstorm = RandalFlagg? It has to be.
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Alex213
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Rogues_Pierre]
#5528925 - 04/18/06 10:48 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Bush obviously believed there were WMD in Iraq
I doubt it. Note how his language was phrased very carefully by lawyers to make sure he had an escape route if they wern't there.
Every country in the world including Iraq believed they had WMD
Nah. The intelligence was always very shaky. That's when the UN didn't go along with Bush.
When the WMD was moved to Syria with the help of the Russians
Come again? Where did you get this one from? Even Bush and Blair have admitted there wern't any WMD and the intelligence was wrong.
In reality, the communists want more slave laborers for their gullags and attacking the US was their means to achieve their evil goals.
Russia stopped being communist a very long time ago.
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Asante
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Luddite]
#5529727 - 04/18/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Country -- City -- Mean IQ Holland -- Amsterdam -- 109.4 Germany -- Hamburg -- 109.3 Poland -- Warsaw -- 108.3 Sweden -- Stockholm -- 105.8 Yugoslavia -- Zagreb -- 105.7 Italy -- Rome -- 103.8 Austria -- Vienna -- 103.5 Switzerland -- Zurich --102.8 Portugal -- Lisbon -- 102.6 Great Britain -- London -- 102.0 Norway -- Oslo -- 101.8 Denmark -- Copenhagen -- 100.7 Hungary -- Budapest -- 100.5 Czechoslovakia -- Bratislava -- 100.4 Spain -- Madrid -- 100.3 United States average -- 100
pwn3d.
source
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Asante]
#5529830 - 04/18/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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No fair! The South is dragging down the grading curve.
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 13,833
Loc: LA Suburbs
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Silversoul]
#5532310 - 04/19/06 03:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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To be fair, people everywhere are generally retards.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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quillini
one meanmotorscooter


Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 255
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Konnrade]
#5533697 - 04/19/06 01:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Honestly, I can't fathom how anybody could be so deluded as to still support GWB. I don't mean this in a partisan way; how can Republicans/conservatives still be so in love with him? My theory is that he fucks up so often it's beginning to look like business-as-usual. If he goes a day without fucking up, it's like an extraodinary achievement.
-------------------- No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility. Only connect...
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Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Konnrade]
#5533815 - 04/19/06 02:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Konnrade said: To be fair, people everywhere are generally retards.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Asante]
#5533983 - 04/19/06 03:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said: Country -- City -- Mean IQ Holland -- Amsterdam -- 109.4 Germany -- Hamburg -- 109.3 Poland -- Warsaw -- 108.3 Sweden -- Stockholm -- 105.8 Yugoslavia -- Zagreb -- 105.7 Italy -- Rome -- 103.8 Austria -- Vienna -- 103.5 Switzerland -- Zurich --102.8 Portugal -- Lisbon -- 102.6 Great Britain -- London -- 102.0 Norway -- Oslo -- 101.8 Denmark -- Copenhagen -- 100.7 Hungary -- Budapest -- 100.5 Czechoslovakia -- Bratislava -- 100.4 Spain -- Madrid -- 100.3 United States average -- 100
pwn3d.
source
So you're comparing selected European cities to the whole US. I want to see a comparison of the average IQ of each entire European country to the US.
Edited by Luddite (04/19/06 03:24 PM)
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Luddite]
#5533999 - 04/19/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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THE EFFECT OF URBAN FLIGHT ON IQ DISTRIBUTION
A violation of the fundamental law of sociology is unearthed, pointing the way to an appraisal of inner-city and suburban IQs, and the characterization of cognitive discontinuities caused by urban migratory patterns. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are very few moments in a man's existence when he experiences so much hostility, or meets with so little benevolence, as when he challenges fashionable perceptions of race. -- La Griffe du Lion, 2002
The fundamental law of sociology If, as he begins this essay, the reader finds himself unacquainted with the fundamental law of sociology, he should not be reproached, for the law is first about to be articulated. It is a difficult task that we undertake, though in fact it is undemanding and straightforward. It is difficult because those who will welcome our results eagerly are among the most perfidious of our species, while those who reject them will do so out of antipathy not discernment. Sandwiched between the devil and the fuzzy-minded are the learned and sagacious readers of La Griffe du Lion, to whom we address our remarks.
The fundamental law of sociology is a summary of hundreds of observations. It asserts that:
On large-scale tests of reasoning ability, the observed mean difference between non-Hispanic whites and African Americans is 1.1 + 0.2 standard deviation.
The observation is so unerringly reproducible, it justly earns the appellation, law. Appropriately, we call 1.1 SD the fundamental constant of sociology. Table 1 illustrates.
Table 1. The Fundamental Law of Sociology Illustrated
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- B/W Mean Difference (SD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 0.99 Math SAT, U.S. average 1998 1.11 NY bar exam first attempts 1985 - 1988 1.13 National bar exam first attempts of every U.S. law student first enrolled in fall 1991 1.19 1986, 1987, 1988 results of National Board of Medical Examiners Exam Part I (required of all U.S. medical students) 1.21 Armed Forces Qualifications Test (from National Longitudinal Survey of Youth)
The anomaly There being no more reliable indicator of racial cognitive differences than the standardized math exam, we were surprised recently by a puzzling anomaly -- an apparent violation of the fundamental law. Anomalies are sometimes swept aside because, after all, they are just anomalies. Sometimes, however, they fit into another design not immediately apparent, in which they are not aberrations, but rather the norm. So it was with this exception. The irregularity turned up on Maryland's usually reliable standardized 8th grade math test, part of the Maryland School Performance Assessment Program (MSPAP).
Like many standardized-exam programs, MSPAP is a huge repository of cognitive information waiting to be extracted. Each May, all Maryland public school 3rd, 5th and 8th graders take these tests. Results are reported in exceptional detail, fully disaggregated by race and ethnicity, and reported down to the level of individual school.
While browsing MSPAP pass rates looking for patterns, we happened upon something extraordinary -- a black-white math gap of 0.55 SD, half that predicted by the fundamental law. The anomaly showed up in data from Baltimore, Maryland's largest city. Almost seven-thousand Baltimore 8th graders contributed to this result, a sample too big to write off as a statistical aberration. There was, of course, the chance that pass rates were erroneously reported, so we went back and looked at results from each of the last nine administrations of this test (1993 to 2001). Over nine years we found an average gap of 0.61 + 0.07 SD. The anomaly was confirmed! We had found a reproducible violation of the fundamental law.
The irregularity was confined to Baltimore. Statewide, the gap on the same test over nine years was a remarkably constant 1.11 + 0.05 SD, in perfect accord with the fundamental law. What had Baltimore done to so reduce the racial gap? It was not education reform or inspired pedagogy that cut the gap. It was demography.
Urban migration in the twentieth century When John and Mack Rust invented the first reliable cotton picking machine in 1936, they could not have imagined the sociological impact it was to have. Perfected in the 1940s, the machine could pick as much as fifty men at one-eighth the cost. It gradually replaced Southern, mostly black field hands. Out of work, they turned northward to earn a living. Three-quarters of the 6.5 million blacks who migrated north between 1910 and 1970 left the South after the cotton picking machine came into widespread use. Jim Crow may have started the great migration, but it was the emergence of this new technology that fueled it.
Black migrants settled mostly in Northern and Midwestern cities where they found work in low-skilled jobs. Barred from most residential areas, their neighborhoods hardened into overcrowded crime-plagued ghettos. Whites, facing an inhospitable intrusion into their lives, began a migration of their own to more remote parts of the city and eventually to the suburbs.
With the passage of civil rights legislation in 1964, new residential opportunities opened for blacks. They began their own urban exodus, following whites to the suburbs. By the end of the twentieth century, most whites with the means to leave the central city had already done so. Black flight, however, was alive and well. Starting from near zero in 1960, by 1990 32 percent of metro-area blacks lived in suburbia, 39 percent by 2000.
But escape from the inner city is a highly selective enterprise. It is an option open mostly to the right half of the bell curve. Consequently, urban flight creates a cognitive discontinuity where the city meets the suburbs. Left behind in the city is a human residue wanting in human capital. Unemployment, welfare dependency, drug addiction, coarseness and incivility are its hallmarks, low IQ its nub. Below we characterize the discontinuity, closely estimating mean IQs of inner-city and suburban dwellers, black and white.
Methodology In December 2000, La Griffe du Lion introduced the method of thresholds. Designed to assess group differences in "fuzzy," i.e., poorly-defined, variables like aggressiveness, criminality and sex drive, the method works as well for precisely defined variables like IQ. Though the calculations are performed analytically (Appendix A) we will take a graphical walk-through to reveal their underpinnings as we assess the mean IQ of African Americans in Maryland.
The method of thresholds employs surrogate variables. Here, we use MSPAP test scores as a stand-in for IQ. Input is the proportion of each of two groups that attains a "satisfactory" score, i.e., reaches the threshold. (MSPAP pass rates are reported at two levels of performance, "satisfactory" and "excellent." )
Over nine years and roughly half a million test scores, 58.8% of white and 19.1% of black 8th graders passed at the satisfactory level. Figure 1 shows the white test score distribution, assumed Gaussian. (See Appendix B for a justification of the use of Gaussian functions.) The distribution is normalized to make the area under the curve unity. The passing score is marked on the score axis (abscissa) as "satisfactory pass." It is placed to make the area under the curve to the right of it (shaded in the figure) equal to 0.588, the white passing fraction.
Figure 1. Normalized distribution of MSPAP math scores for white 8th graders statewide. The satisfactory-level passing score is located so as to make the shaded area equal to the passing fraction, 0.588.
Next we locate the black distribution on the same axes (Figure 2). This is accomplished by shifting the (white) distribution left until the area under the curve to the right of the passing score equals the black passing fraction, 0.191. The mean difference is the distance separating the two curves, measured here to be 1.1 SD.
Figure 2. Without changing the passing score, shift the white distribution left until the area under the curve to the right of the passing score equals 0.191, the black passing fraction. The black-white mean difference is the distance separating the two curves.
Conversion to IQ units is straightforward. Customarily, the mean IQ of non-Hispanic whites is set to 100, with a standard deviation of 15. A gap of 1.1 SD then corresponds to a mean black IQ in Maryland of 83.5, i.e., 100 - (1.1)(15).
The method of thresholds, as illustrated above, yields a statewide black-white cognitive gap of 1.1 SD, in agreement with the fundamental law. To dispel any suspicion of fortuity, we divided the data into nine independent parts corresponding to the nine administrations of the test between 1993 and 2001. Each year's data was analyzed separately. Table 2 shows the result of this computation. The average of the nine values was 1.106 SD with a standard error of 0.045, ruling out fortuity.
Table 2. Statewide Black and White Satisfactory-Level Pass Rates and Gaps MSPAP Eighth-grade Math
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- year pass rate (%) black pass rate (%) white B/W gap (SD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 11.4 15.3 19.0 17.2 19.5 21.3 22.2 24.7 21.5 48.2 53.1 54.8 57.8 60.7 61.8 64.5 65.3 62.6 1.160 1.101 0.999 1.143 1.131 1.096 1.137 1.077 1.110
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- average gap = 1.106 + 0.045
Effects of urban flight on IQ distribution Maryland's big city, Baltimore, saw its population peak just short of a million in 1950. It has been declining for nearly half a century, 17% in the last twenty years alone. Today it numbers about 651,000. White flight followed by black has drained the city of inhabitants. As its population dwindled, Baltimore like many other Northern and Midwestern cities without significant recent foreign immigration became blacker. Today, Baltimore is 65% African American, and 32% non-Hispanic white.
Baltimoreans who fled the city moved mostly to neighboring Baltimore County. The County, which surrounds the city, is the first stop on the way out. Thirty years ago Baltimore County was lily white. Today, African Americans are 17 percent of its 726,000 inhabitants. And they keep coming.
Table 3 illustrates the effect that urban flight has had on IQ distribution. We computed mean differences between Maryland's non-Hispanic white population and each of four local groups: inner-city and suburban blacks and whites. From these, we computed mean IQs, assigning a value of 100 to Maryland's non-Hispanic white population with a standard deviation of 15. (Affluent whites and blacks inside the city are not represented in these data. They neither live in slums nor send their kids to public schools.)
Table 3 Mean Differences (SD) with Respect to Maryland Non-Hispanic Whites Corresponding Mean IQs
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- year Baltimore City blacks Baltimore County blacks Baltimore City whites Baltimore County whites
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 1.68 1.51 1.38 1.72 1.69 1.54 1.62 1.52 1.47 0.945 0.847 0.886 1.031 0.975 0.865 1.018 0.918 0.949 1.120 0.909 0.808 0.956 0.984 0.962 1.015 0.979 0.916 0.048 0.063 0.068 0.058 -0.010 0.070 0.106 0.019 -0.019
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- avg 1.57 + 0.11 0.937 + 0.061 0.961 + 0.080 0.045 + 0.038
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IQ 76 86 86 99
Conclusions Baltimore is typical of many Midwestern and Northern cities, whose demographics were forever changed by the great black migration of the twentieth century. Not unexpectedly we found a cognitive discontinuity at the city line. Surprising, however, was its magnitude. Whereas suburban mean IQs (86 for blacks, 99 for whites) conform more or less to national norms, city IQs are dreadfully low. With a mean IQ of 76, inner-city blacks fall about 0.6 SD below the African American average nationally. More than a third have death-penalty immunity on grounds of mental retardation. The inner-city white mean of 86 is nearly a full standard deviation below the national white average. By this measure, whites fared worse than blacks. Both groups are seriously deficient in human capital. Neither is very employable. To compound matters, we almost certainly have overstated urban IQs. City residents constitute a low-IQ group extracted from a more cognitively representative population. Their kids, whose test scores we analyzed, should have regressed toward their racial means, i.e., toward higher IQs. That is, inner city kids are smarter than their parents. Accordingly, our estimates of inner-city IQs are best regarded as upper bounds to adult values.
IQ hardens early in life, locking in the urban deficit. With few prospects for improvement, cities must look elsewhere for amelioration. While we all are aware of the advantages that accrue to the brightest among us, we also know that other qualities carry with them inestimable benefits. Traits like honesty, reliability, perseverance and self-discipline, when cultivated contribute to employability and to a more productive life in general. Indeed, for low-skilled jobs these latter qualities are more important than intellect. Unfortunately, casual observation finds such virtues also wanting.
Finally, we note that a problem cannot be solved until it is defined. This we have done. But where we see cognitive inadequacy, some will find only abject, hopeless misery. As for our efforts, we can be certain of only one thing -- vilification. It could drive a man to pseudonymity
###
APPENDIX A. THE METHOD OF THRESHOLDS Let PA(x) and PB(x) be the normalized probability distributions of the group property, x, measured in units of standard deviation, for members of group A and B, respectively. The distribution functions for the two groups are assumed related by the translation, PB(x) = PA(x + D).
Let fA be the fraction of A's who reach or surpass some threshold value of x, say l. That is,
The fraction, fB, of B's who reach or surpass l is:
where D is the mean difference, <xA> - <xB>.
Equation A.2 is conveniently transformed as follows:
From the known fractions, fA and fB , both the mean difference, D, and threshold, l, may be obtained by simultaneous solution of (A.1) and (A.3). Reader Ken Hirsch shows how, using Gaussian distribution functions, this may be simply accomplished with a spreadsheet. (Appendix B justifies the use of Gaussians in the analysis of MSPAP data.)
###
APPENDIX B. A NOTE ON THE USE OF GAUSSIAN DISTRIBUTION FUNCTIONS To apply the method of thresholds, we assumed Gaussian test-score distributions. A word justifying their use is in order.
MSPAP provides two passing-score thresholds, "satisfactory" and "excellent," which fall on widely separated parts of the score axis. If Gaussians apply, the two thresholds should, within reasonable bounds, yield the same value for the mean difference.
Above, we computed statewide black-white mean differences from satisfactory-level pass rates. We repeated the calculation for each of nine years, this time using excellent-level pass rates. Table B.1 shows the result. The average gap was 1.136 SD + 0.053 compared to 1.106 + 0.045 obtained from satisfactory-level thresholds. Within the standard errors indicated, the two thresholds yield the same gap, validating the use of Gaussians in this context.
Table B.1 Statewide Black and White Excellent-Level Pass Rates and Gaps MSPAP Eighth-grade Math
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- year pass rate (%) black pass rate (%) white B/W gap (SD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 0.260 0.463 0.868 0.942 1.29 1.80 2.56 2.93 2.41 5.94 7.42 8.96 11.7 13.0 16.6 22.1 21.7 19.4 1.23 1.16 1.04 1.16 1.10 1.13 1.18 1.11 1.11
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- average gap = 1.136 + 0.053
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Luddite]
#5534005 - 04/19/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Luddite]
#5534020 - 04/19/06 03:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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