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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5519161 - 04/15/06 01:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What did the UN accomplish? Nothing. The United States and several other nations did however prevent Iraq from occupying Kuwait.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Alex213]
    #5519230 - 04/15/06 02:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
The UN acted in the first gulf war didn't they?




Yes, yes they did. And they really didn't do anything.

Unfortunately, the UN is impotent by design. The UN is not a sovereign body, and it holds very limited authority, and even more limited powers by which it excercises that authority.

Really, the UN is mostly just a forum to promote diplomacy by bringing leaders together as part of a common association. It really doesn't have the elements in it's design to be an international police force like some people think it should be.

The UN's ability at the moment is to encourage peace. The UN itself cannot defend peace. Rather, the UN tries to motivate world leaders to take that upon themselves. It also gives them some semblance of authority to do so.

Of course, the UN does have a security force, but that security force does not belong to the UN. The UN security force is made up of soldiers from member nations who wear smurf hats. They're still soldiers of the countries they come from, they just happen to wear UN uniforms.

Now, I'll bring this back to Bush just so I'm not wandering too far off topic:

Bush, of course, acted without the approval of the UN. That doesn't in and of itself mean he was wrong (although there are good arguments about why he is wrong based upon other criteria). Acting without approval of the UN means ONLY that the other world leaders who are members of the UN did not approve of what he did. Their reasons may not have been necessarily altruistic. They are powerful politicians, each with their own agenda. Some of them may have disagreed for entirely selfish reasons. For example, perhaps they were afraid that if they supported Bush on this, that they would become subject to the same harsh criticism that has fallen upon Bush. By denying him their approval, they also avoid being associated with his mistakes and with the war in Iraq.

Now, I don't think the war in Iraq was necessarily a good idea. And, I don't think the strategy in Iraq has been the best. However, I don't feel that Bush is a criminal in this case. I think he may well be a bit incompetent, or somewhat impulsive, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he is evil or a criminal.

The war in iraq has created a decent sized mess, but it's not as bad as some previous wars have been. For US soldiers, the mortality seems to be at a record low. The enemy in Iraq is similar in many ways to the enemy that was faced in Vietnam. Many of the OpFor are not a literal military. They are people in civilian clothes who can blend in with innocent civilians. It is not easy to distinguish between the civilians and the enemy.

In vietnam, that scenario led to some truly nasty civilian casualties. It wasn't common for soldiers to get to the point where they started assuming everyone was the enemy. Some soldiers preferred to shoot civilians rather than take the chance of being ambushed.

In Iraq, this doesn't seem to be occurring to any significant extent. If it has, it hasn't been being reported. Back in vietnam, the media ate that sort of thing up. Reporters dug up a lot of dirt in vietnam despite the government's efforts to squelch it. If it was happening in iraq, reporters would find a way to break the news. It's probably safe to say that compared to vietnam the civilian losses have been far less significant.

And, of course, Bush does not want civilians to die. He's not an evil man. His problems stem from bad decisions, and perhaps partly from the bad decisions of some of the people he relies upon. Compare that to the people who were convicted at nuremberg. Many of those people knowingly participated in actions that were solely designed to kill as many civilians as possible. They were also part of a police-state that openly broadcasted an intention to take over the world by whatever means necessary.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5520232 - 04/16/06 03:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, but what did it accomplish?



Getting Saddam out of Kuwait?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5520250 - 04/16/06 04:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

However, I don't feel that Bush is a criminal in this case.

I may not feel someone is a criminal for smoking dope either but if that's what the law says then you are. He's planned and waged an aggressive war. At Nuremberg german leaders were hanged for exactly that.

If it was happening in iraq, reporters would find a way to break the news.

I think the media is a lot less aware of what's happening in Iraq than Vietnam. At least in Vietnam you had journalists with some degree of independence. In Iraq they're all embedded and see only what the US army wants them to see. Look at the articles Phred posts by Ralph Peters - he rides around with US army patrols and thinks he knows what's going on in Iraq.

And, of course, Bush does not want civilians to die

Then he shouldn't have invaded Iraq. Because if you invade a place like Iraq you are going to slaughter and maim thousands upon thousands of innocent people.

He's not an evil man

I don't know if he's evil or not but you couldn't call slaughtering thousands of innocent people on the basis of lies the act of a "good" man could you?

Many of those people knowingly participated in actions that were solely designed to kill as many civilians as possible.


But the crime they were charged with was planning and waging aggressive war. Bush planned and waged a war of aggression. Iraq was no threat to the US whatsoever. He chose to go there.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5520864 - 04/16/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
And, of course, Bush does not want civilians to die. He's not an evil man.



Do you really believe so? You believe a wealthy, social Darwinist Christian oil man took into account the mortality of civilians while ordering his war of imperialism?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: bukkake]
    #5520883 - 04/16/06 12:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Do you really believe so? You believe a wealthy, social Darwinist Christian oil man took into account the mortality of civilians while ordering his war of imperialism? "

:rolleyes:

This is why no one will ever have to worry about the cumdrenched having any power to dictate policy.  They negate themselves.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5521013 - 04/16/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That made very little sense.

To the competent observer, the war of Iraq had very little to do with threat but much more to do with exploitation and colonialism, and imperialism. What was the point of rushing in again? No one in Europe feared him while our supposed " liberal " media whipped the country into hysteria about a hydrogen bomb landing at our doorstep by noon.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: bukkake]
    #5521278 - 04/16/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
That made very little sense.

To the competent observer, the war of Iraq had very little to do with threat but much more to do with exploitation and colonialism, and imperialism.



bullshit
Quote:


What was the point of rushing in again?




Over a decade of ceasefire violations is not exactly rushing
Quote:


No one in Europe



Britain still stands behind it's assertion he was seeking yellowcake in Niger. France and Russia were bought off. Germany won't do anything and Spain and Italy were with us along with Britiain.
Quote:


feared him while our supposed " liberal " media whipped the country into hysteria about a hydrogen bomb landing at our doorstep by noon.




I must have missed that. Nonsense like this is why you and your ilk will remain utterly without influence.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5521386 - 04/16/06 03:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bullshit



Drunk? Intoxicated? Pissed? Iraq is America's new satellite in the Middle East.

Quote:

Over a decade of ceasefire violations is not exactly rushing



Always convenient to not acknowledge the spying and meddling within the borders of sovereign states.

Quote:

Britain still stands behind it's assertion he was seeking yellowcake in Niger. France and Russia were bought off. Germany won't do anything and Spain and Italy were with us along with Britiain.



And Britain has always been as full of shit as America has been. And? They were all wrong or lying. What are you getting at?

Quote:

I must have missed that. Nonsense like this is why you and your ilk will remain utterly without influence.



You must not have ever turned on your television or read a newspaper to see masses of bloodthirsty warmongering Americans pre-invasion with vengeance on the brain for 9-11 and destroying AQ.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: bukkake]
    #5521464 - 04/16/06 03:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

1. Sure it is. Whatever you say. Yep, Iraq's a satellite. Whatever works for you.

2. They lost most of the rights of a "sovereign state" when they invaded another one and acquiesced to a cease fire agreement. Or were you getting at something else. It's hard to tell what your absurd assertions are in reference to.

3. You said "no one in Europe". I said you lie and proved it. Or has Great Britiain wisely relocated itself to a continent with a future?

4. I saw some TV and read lots of newspapers. Your characterization is absurd nonsense. Just because you'd be happy to bend over and keep taking it in the ass from these nutjobs doesn't mean that those of us who won't are bloodthirsty psychopaths. Nor was there much hysteria mongering over this issue.

It's pretty clear who the bloodthirsty psychopaths are and it's pretty clear who the apologists and cowards who would take it are. Which is why, to get back to my original point, you and your ilk will never be more than an annoyance at most.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5521834 - 04/16/06 05:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

They lost most of the rights of a "sovereign state" when they invaded another one and acquiesced to a cease fire agreement.



I must consult dictionary.com for this one to prove your ridiculous assertions wrong.

Self-governing; independent

Of or relating to a body politic or to an internally autonomous territorial or political unit constituting a federation under one government

By this definition, Iraq was most certainly a sovereign state. And, if we are to go by your definition, America is no longer a sovereign state for invading Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Haiti, and whoever else I cannot mention in the same breathe due to lack of oxygen, though the list is paramount. If you would like a more expansive definition of state or sovereignty, I will gladly mail you one of my dated Political Science textbooks.

Quote:

You said "no one in Europe". I said you lie and proved it. Or has Great Britiain wisely relocated itself to a continent with a future?



I was referring to the populations of European countries. I would not define this country as having a future, either.

Quote:

I saw some TV and read lots of newspapers. Your characterization is absurd nonsense. Just because you'd be happy to bend over and keep taking it in the ass from these nutjobs doesn't mean that those of us who won't are bloodthirsty psychopaths. Nor was there much hysteria mongering over this issue.



I never felt a phallus, then or now. The country, then, was overwhelmingly in support of a nonsensical war. It is no coincidence the outrageous for-profit media we have whipped the country into a warmongering fervor. The drumming of support was irrational and still is.

Quote:

it's pretty clear who the apologists and cowards who would take it are.



What is it we were taking from Saddam Hussein and Iraq from this side of the Atlantic while he was conducting his authoritarianism?


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InvisibleLuddite
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Registered: 03/23/06
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: bukkake]
    #5522364 - 04/16/06 07:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)



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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Luddite]
    #5522400 - 04/16/06 08:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)



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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Luddite]
    #5522421 - 04/16/06 08:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)



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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Luddite]
    #5522434 - 04/16/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

COUNTRY .... AVERAGE IQ

Bahrain................. 83
Egypt ................... 83
Iran .................... 84
Iraq .................... 87
Israel .................. 94
Jordan ................. 87
Kuwait ................ 83
Lebanon .............. 86
Oman .................. 83
Qatar .................. 78
Saudi Arabia ......... 83
Syria ................... 87
Turkey ................. 90
United Arab Emirates 83

http://baconeatingatheistjew.blogspot.com/2006/02/middle-east-literacy-and-iq-rates.html


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Luddite]
    #5522690 - 04/16/06 09:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Great Satan?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5523749 - 04/17/06 08:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Great Satan?




It has to be him.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: bukkake]
    #5525984 - 04/17/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

They lost most of the rights of a "sovereign state" when they invaded another one and acquiesced to a cease fire agreement.



I must consult dictionary.com for this one to prove your ridiculous assertions wrong.

Self-governing; independent

Of or relating to a body politic or to an internally autonomous territorial or political unit constituting a federation under one government

By this definition, Iraq was most certainly a sovereign state. And, if we are to go by your definition, America is no longer a sovereign state for invading Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Haiti, and whoever else I cannot mention in the same breathe due to lack of oxygen, though the list is paramount. If you would like a more expansive definition of state or sovereignty, I will gladly mail you one of my dated Political Science textbooks.




You are once again exposing your reading comprehension skills for what they are. I said they signed away some of their rights as a sovereign nation in the cease fire agreement, which is 100% correct. Please illustrate for us where the US has done so. Thank you.
Quote:



Quote:

You said "no one in Europe". I said you lie and proved it. Or has Great Britiain wisely relocated itself to a continent with a future?



I was referring to the populations of European countries. I would not define this country as having a future, either.




You said "no one". Tony Blair is a person. Tony Blair is in Europe. Ergo, your statement is a lie. And a foolish one at that.
Quote:



Quote:

I saw some TV and read lots of newspapers. Your characterization is absurd nonsense. Just because you'd be happy to bend over and keep taking it in the ass from these nutjobs doesn't mean that those of us who won't are bloodthirsty psychopaths. Nor was there much hysteria mongering over this issue.



I never felt a phallus, then or now. The country, then, was overwhelmingly in support of a nonsensical war. It is no coincidence the outrageous for-profit media we have whipped the country into a warmongering fervor. The drumming of support was irrational and still is.




For various reasons I do not think that you are in any position to determine rationality or nonsense. You have devolved into the "anyone who disagrees with me is brainwashed" fallacy. This is why you will never be of any influence. I wanted this war and I wanted it finished in 1990. Marys said "no, give him a chance." Not me.
I think it is you who doesn't read the papers, or at least not the NYTimes and the WaPo and the LATimes, because they sure didn't beat the drum for Bush and his policy
Quote:



Quote:

it's pretty clear who the apologists and cowards who would take it are.



What is it we were taking from Saddam Hussein and Iraq from this side of the Atlantic while he was conducting his authoritarianism?




Him specificly, threats. From someone with a history of acting on them, and the wherewithal to continue and to further assist those who would do us harm. He was on probation and he violated his probation. Further, as has been shown many times by their own statements, we are perceived as pussies unwilling to do the tough work to protect ourselves (I do believe you have ranted about fat American pussies elsewhere). This by itself makes us a target. Unfortunately the out of power pussies are still barking and emboldening those who would do us harm. Oh well. We'll have to get hit again and then kick their ass again and you and your ilk still won't learn.


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InvisibleRogues_Pierre
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5528395 - 04/18/06 06:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Bush obviously believed there were WMD in Iraq. Every country in the world including Iraq believed they had WMD. When the WMD was moved to Syria with the help of the Russians the leftists took the opportunity to attack what they thought was the leader of the capitalist world and claimed Bush lied. In reality, the communists want more slave laborers for their gullags and attacking the US was their means to achieve their evil goals.


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Edited by Rogues_Pierre (04/18/06 06:43 AM)


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InvisibleRogues_Pierre
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Re: Why hasn't Bush been hanged? [Re: Rogues_Pierre]
    #5528402 - 04/18/06 06:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Redstorm = RandalFlagg?
It has to be.


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