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OfflineTemptress
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why investigate prayer in the first place?
    #5510617 - 04/12/06 11:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

why not investigate the throwing of chicken bones, reading coffee grounds or any of an infinite number of other possible 'reality-altering' rituals?

normally, direct observation precedes a scientific investigation. not so with this sort of silliness.


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i have less ego than you do!

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Temptress]
    #5510624 - 04/12/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Lady, yer just lucky I don't yet have a lock of yer hair.

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Offlinejcdangerously
I'll Cut You

Registered: 04/08/06
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Temptress]
    #5510636 - 04/12/06 11:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

why investigate prayer in the first place?




For the same reason you posed this question. It gives people something to talk about. Not that it wouldn't be time better spent elsewhere.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Temptress]
    #5510667 - 04/12/06 11:50 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It's called research that may lead to some kind of evolution, better understanding of our world and probably solution of some problems.


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OfflineTemptress
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5510686 - 04/12/06 11:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

for there to be research; first a phenomenon must be observed - comprende?


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i have less ego than you do!

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5510690 - 04/12/06 11:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

because many people in our society people pray, duh.

Edited by Deviate (04/12/06 11:56 PM)

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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Temptress]
    #5510723 - 04/13/06 12:03 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think I like your tone. Are we fighting here? I am an engineer and I researched whether recycled plastic transfers heat better than virgin material. We didn't know what the answer was but this is what research is for. You don't have to have a phenomenon, it would then be called analysis. You could research on the possibility of one more planet in our solar system. And you'd be right. Travel in the past and tell the people about electricity. Did they knew about it? Anyway I will not continue because I think that you are just playing with words anyway....


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: jcdangerously]
    #5510727 - 04/13/06 12:04 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

say you want to get into line, to get into traffic,
you adjust your rhythm and speed
you shake and dance appropriately.

you blend in, and you proceed.

say you want to learn a new physical manouver, like heelys or rollerblades, you synch up somehow, hard to explain, it is something like rhythms repetition, excercise, you find the "balance point" - a certain target that was invisible.

what I am getting at is that we approximate the "goal" and approach the "goal" by proxy.

we "attain" what was ungrasped, by these proxy methods, or approximating, attuning, and getting in synch.

this includes prayer,

what should be investigated is the order and the process:
prayer is a private synchronization with personal motives towards some goals.
a personal proxy - it should be investigated, so that it is not taken for the goal itself,
it should be analysed so that it may function as attunement rather than as the tune.

investigate to put error aside.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineTemptress
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5510749 - 04/13/06 12:11 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

no, I am not just playing with words - where is the point of origin on which prayer was first based? someone made something up and others took up the practice, but there remains no basis.

as i asked earlier, why NOT investigate smearing spaghetti sauce on walls as a way to alter reality? why would that 'research' be less valid?

should we also investigate three long hops on the right foot vs. four short hops on the left in inducing rain? studies would certainly favor one method over the other.

there is no end to such ridiculous research.


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i have less ego than you do!

Edited by Temptress (04/13/06 12:25 AM)

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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Temptress]
    #5510772 - 04/13/06 12:20 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

So you think the possibilities of prayer working are the same with the possibilities of altering reality by smearing spaghetti on the wall?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Temptress]
    #5510798 - 04/13/06 12:30 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Temptress said:
no, I am not just playing with words - where is the point of origin on which prayer was first based? someone made something up and others took up the practice, but there remains no basis.

as i asked earlier, why NOT investigate smearing spaghetti sauce on walls as a way to alter reality? why would that 'research' be less valid?

shoul we also investigate three long hops on the right foot vs. four short hops on the left in inducing rain? studies would certainly favor one method over the other.

there is no end to such ridiculous research.




as i said, it makes slightly more sense to investigate prayer because it is a common practise on planet earth. for example at one time doctors believed leeching cured disease (who knows why thought this). are you saying it would make as little sense to do a study on leeching, or any other ancient medical practise as it would to do a study on spagetti sauce smearing?

there is no end to such ridiculous research.

note the exaggeration. we can choose to only invesitgate rituals which are extremely widespread. there is no need to begin the investigation with smearing spagetti sauce on the walls for instance, because no one does that. what if studies did show a positive affect from prayer? what then?

Edited by Deviate (04/13/06 12:32 AM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5510805 - 04/13/06 12:32 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

So you think the possibilities of prayer working are the same with the possibilities of altering reality by smearing spaghetti on the wall?

That's what I think.

Spaghetti Sauce appeals to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, while Prayer appeals to God. Both have an equal chance of working and for the same reasons.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Diploid]
    #5510811 - 04/13/06 12:35 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

No, I don't agree. Prayer does not appeal to god, this is only the outer vail. The point is whether you can use your mind to change matter. And this is a very important field to research.


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OfflineTemptress
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Deviate]
    #5510818 - 04/13/06 12:37 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

we can choose to only invesitgate rituals which are extremely widespread. there is no need to begin the investigation with smearing spagetti on the walls for instance, because no one does that.




so it makes less sense because fewer people do it and more sense if large numbers of ignorant people do something that denies the proven law of cause and effect?

alrighty then. let's investigate why garlic is so efficacious in keeping vampires away.  :rolleyes:


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i have less ego than you do!

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Temptress]
    #5510844 - 04/13/06 12:51 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Temptress said:
Quote:

we can choose to only invesitgate rituals which are extremely widespread. there is no need to begin the investigation with smearing spagetti on the walls for instance, because no one does that.




so it makes less sense because fewer people do it and more sense if large numbers of ignorant people do something that denies the proven law of cause and effect?





if everyone is taking LSD because they believe it will cure their psycholocal problems, it would make more sense to investigate the question of whether LSD is indeed useful for that purpose than to investigate whether skipping stones while singing the national anthem cures psychological problems. since large numbers of people are going to do it anyway (take LSD) , any research pertaining to it has more relevence than research on the same topic pertaining to something which no one does that has the same amount of evidence reguarding its ability to cure. also, you ignored my question for the 4th straight time. what if the study on prayer had found results as others have? what then?

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OfflineTemptress
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Deviate]
    #5510900 - 04/13/06 01:28 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

to investigate whether skipping stones while singing the national anthem cures psychological problems




you may be onto something there. have u thought about applying for a grant?


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i have less ego than you do!

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Temptress]
    #5511177 - 04/13/06 05:36 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Because you don't know something about it's causality, you won't investigate it ?

What's that ? Just silly ignorance ?

If it will help you smearing spaghetti sauce on the walls, and the walls are your 'property', then just do it. Perhaps you will attract the FSM out of its parallel universe. Don't forget the 17 olives.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineTemptress
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5511910 - 04/13/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Don't forget the 17 olives.




which makes as much sense as bowing ones head, kneeling and making the sign of the cross and whispering.

if i am going to pray, i will raise my head and shout: "GIVE ME THE GODDAMN FERRARI ALREADY!" at least one should be bold.


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i have less ego than you do!

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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Temptress]
    #5512774 - 04/13/06 03:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Are people here just answering for the sake of answering? Who disagrees about how important is the control of matter through our minds?


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5512793 - 04/13/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I can't usually control matter using only my mind. But I think I have to give my scientology practitioners more money to do more auditing first.


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Namaste

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Offlinekotik
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5512864 - 04/13/06 04:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I am an engineer and I researched whether recycled plastic transfers heat better than virgin material.




even you must admit that is a far cry from psychokinesis.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: kotik]
    #5512934 - 04/13/06 04:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Of course, but it is very interesting!!! For sure some people would carry out that kind of research especially with all that speculation floating around just to set some things straight. It is a far cry not only from psychokinesis but generally in the way our minds affect matter and not only how our minds can move matter(psychokinesis). If you concentrate hard that when you flip a coin you will get heads and then you flip one million coins, which way would the distribution lie? A very interesting somehow related and well known experiments is Schrodingers Cat Experiment. Is the cat alive or dead? Can we add-on to this experiment the use of our minds to change superposition?


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Offlineleery11
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5513440 - 04/13/06 07:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Four years ago, Ginandes and Daniel Rosenthal, professor of radiology at the Harvard Medical School, published a report on their study of hypnosis to speed up the mending of broken bones. They recruited 12 people with broken ankles who did not require surgery and who received the usual treatment at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston. In addition, Ginandes hypnotized half of them once a week for 12 weeks, while the other half received only normal treatment. The same doctor applied the casts and other care, and the same radiologists took regular X-rays to monitor how well they healed. A radiologist who evaluated the X-rays did not know which patients underwent hypnosis.

The result stood out like a sore ankle. Those who were hypnotized healed faster than those who were not. Six weeks after the fracture, those in the hypnosis group showed the equivalent of eight and a half weeks of healing.




http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/05.08/01-hypnosis.html

Quote:

At a hospital in Cleveland, children with chronic, intractable pain from cancer are being taught to escape it by visualizing themselves in a relaxed, happy place.

Such studies are producing an evergrowing body of evidence that portends a sea change in the way health-care professionals and patients are viewing the role of the mind in the treatment of illness. Relaxation, hypnosis, and other mind-body approaches have been used in Western medicine for decades by traditional healers. Two things are different today: these approaches are gaining more respect and interest from researchers in major medical institutions; and evidence is mounting that mind-body techniques may actually affect the course of disease itself.




Quote:

Patients taught hypnotic relaxation techniques before surgery required less medication during their procedures, says Elvira Lang, M.D., associate professor of radiology at Harvard Medical School. Of 161 patients in her study undergoing procedures requiring only local sedation, such as kidney drainage and angioplasty, 82 learned relaxation exercises, including closing one's eyes and breathing deeply, focusing on a floating sensation and imagining a safe, comfortable place. While all patients were offered pain and anxiety medication during surgery, 50% of the relaxed subjects requested no drugs at all, compared to just 18% of the other patients.




Your mind, being connected to the body, can exert tremendously influence over healing processes.

part of spiritual development is negating any attachments that would lead to insincere prayers for ferraris and super models and things like that. Can it heal? It's a lot more likely to if your answer ISN'T "no."

So I don't quite understand your motivations for continuing these threads... were the old ones locked? Studies show this and that from time to time, but it is proven that hypnosis and meditation affect health. I don't know what's going on in your head but PRAYER is just a word... there are people that pray sincerely enough to go into transcendent psychedelic states. There are people who spend 15 seconds asking for something. Forget religion.


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (04/13/06 07:24 PM)

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Offlinekotik
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: leery11]
    #5513564 - 04/13/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If you concentrate hard that when you flip a coin you will get heads and then you flip one million coins, which way would the distribution lie?




i don't understand the analogy, and moreso I don't understand how this would have anything to do with mind over matter. maybe i just lost the topic.

Quote:

A very interesting somehow related and well known experiments is Schrodingers Cat Experiment. Is the cat alive or dead?




the cat experiment is better when describing something, when observation actually affects the experiment. or rather, in order to know one thing, you must remain ignorant of another. This is not necessarily the case in mind over matter, or if it is, I am having trouble drawing the same conclusions as you.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: kotik]
    #5513583 - 04/13/06 08:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If you concentrate hard and pray for heads to come and you toss a million coins will the percentage of heads be more than 50%?

A very interesting somehow related and well known experiments is Schrodingers Cat Experiment. Is the cat alive or dead? Can we add-on to this experiment the use of our minds to change superposition?

Can we add-on to this experiment the use of our minds to change superposition?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5513631 - 04/13/06 08:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
If you concentrate hard and pray for heads to come and you toss a million coins will the percentage of heads be more than 50%?




Even if it was, does that demonstrate that prayer was effective in manipulating physical reality?

I think not. You could flip a million coins and each time get heads. It's a 50% chance each flip between two options, but that doesn't mean that a million flips will get 50%.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5513650 - 04/13/06 08:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

No, mate it's not a 50% chance every time. The second time you throw a coin, the change to get heads again is 25%, the third time is 12.5% and so on...


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5513662 - 04/13/06 08:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
No, mate it's not a 50% chance every time. The second time you throw a coin, the change to get heads again is 25%, the third time is 12.5% and so on...




Bullshit! Each flip, its a 50/50 chance.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5513677 - 04/13/06 08:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Nope. I don't see how you can not understand it. It is normal. You win the lottary. Next time you think you have the same chances? It is a 50-50 when there is no past. Simple statistics.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5513764 - 04/13/06 09:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
Nope. I don't see how you can not understand it. It is normal. You win the lottary. Next time you think you have the same chances? It is a 50-50 when there is no past. Simple statistics.




Do you think the coin and the forces responsible for the action being carried out give a shit what happened in the past? :lol:

Flip a coin, its 50/50%, all the time. Saying that the second time you flip a coin, you only have a 25% chance of getting a heads because you got heads last time, would be the same as putting three tails on the coin and one heads.

Since that isn't what is happening, it is 50/50.

The fact that one has won the lottery before doesn't mean they have less odds of winning next time. Their odds of winning next time are determined by whether or not they pick the right numbers.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5513774 - 04/13/06 09:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Mate, you clearly don't have a single clue about statistics so I will not argue with you. Read a book, search the internet I don't know what else to say.


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InvisiblePsychoslut
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5513778 - 04/13/06 09:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You HAVE to be a puppet. No person can actually be as dumb as you are acting.


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[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5513784 - 04/13/06 09:11 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
Mate, you clearly don't have a single clue about statistics so I will not argue with you. Read a book, search the internet I don't know what else to say.




Statistics don't mean shit. Flip a coin, you will either get heads or tails. 50/50 chance of either side being chosen. Saying that there is only a 25% chance of getting heads is the same as stating that there are three more tails sides on a coin than heads. :wtf:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5513807 - 04/13/06 09:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Listen, it is very simple. You are wrong. You have just flipped a coin for 5 times and you get heads. The 6th time you think you got 50-50 chances? No. Look, it's all too easy to wright in an agressive way when you don't understand something but please at least search the internet if you are bored to read a book about statistics or fail to understand that flipping a coin 100 times and get all heads does not have the same possibilities to happen with fliping a coin once and get heads.


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5513844 - 04/13/06 09:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Here, if you don't want to believe me,

http://waynesword.palomar.edu/coinflip.htm

this is the simplest I could find...


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5513848 - 04/13/06 09:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Does the coin magically transform after so many flips so that there are more of one side than another?

No? I thought not. Theoretical likelihood does not dismiss the fact that there are only two sides of a coin, only one outcome of a flip, and, thus, each side of the coin has a 50% chance of coming up on top.

Simple, easy.

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5513859 - 04/13/06 09:27 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

That link pertains to tossing five coins at once. D'oh!

Sure, one could still toss the same coin five times, but the point, which the link confirms, is that each toss has a 50/50% chance. The fact that they are multiplying 1/2 should indicate that, eh? :rolleyes:

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5513876 - 04/13/06 09:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The only thing that is simple is the fact that you don't want to understand it.

I will make one final attempt explaining it.

You toss 3 coins. What are the possible outcomes?

Heads-Heads-Heads
Heads-Heads-Tails
Tails-Tails-Tails
Tails-Tails-Heads

So they are all heads, all tails, 2 of them heads and one tails or 2 of them tails and one heads.

These are 4 possible outcomes, 4 possibilities.

Your selection is all heads.

1 possibility out of 4.

1/4 => 25%


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5513884 - 04/13/06 09:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Lol, at once, no it doesn't matter. I explained it to you in detail with my reply above. If you still can't get it you most probably don't want to.


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5514047 - 04/13/06 10:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Each time someone flips a coin, there are how many sides to the coin?

How many possible outcomes?

possible outcomes / sides of coin

Can you do the math?

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5514095 - 04/13/06 10:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I can do lots of math but as you just proved you don't. Can not continue with this. If someone else understands basic statistics or even has common logic please have a go at explaining.

I can't believe that you keep insisting that you have the same possibilities of getting heads 1 time with having already got heads 99 times and go for the 100th. Can't you see? At least accept that it was something you didn't know? I don't know why you are stuck in one coin. One coin has 50-50 but not after you have tossed 10 heads already. Doesn't your common logic say that tossing heads again is not very likely to happen. Listen, if you can't understand it at least accept it by reading some trustworthy material.

Pfffft

If you play roulette and you see that the red color has come up 13 consecutive times, isn't it a relatively safe bet to put your money in black? I have won lots of money doing just that! Only problem is that you need to have a big budjet going into the game so you can always get you money back whatever happens. Even if the lower possibility of 20 red straight comes up.


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5514747 - 04/14/06 03:40 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

lol wow this is getting out of hand.

when you flip a coin, you ALWAYS have a 50% chance.

now if you were to flip a coin 10 times, if you predict you know the outcome of ALL 10 of those flips, then to be right the first time would be 50%.  to be right the second time would be less, all the way to the 10th time.  Of course each time you get it right, your chances at getting them ALL right decreases, but that doesnt change the fact that for each individual coin, the chance is always 50%

you seem to be getting hostile over this, probably because you are having problems understanding it yourself?  :blush:


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5514772 - 04/14/06 04:09 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

That is a very interesting problem and I would like to give right to both of you. FWG is right, that every single chance is 50/50.
And you are right, that the average outcome with unlimited throws will be 50/50.
So, if one experiment goes extremely fluctuated to one side (9 heads out of 10), the chances over a long period are, that a similar occurrence will happen to the other side (9 numbers out of 10), so in all, it will balance it out.
You can not say, when the out-balancing occurrence will happen, but it will :laugh:

Infinity is your friend :heart:


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: kotik]
    #5514914 - 04/14/06 06:59 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I am getting hostile because you are braking my balls over something I have understood while still in school and a lot further in the university. I explained myself correctly and more than I should have. I have no doubt about that.

"One coin has 50-50 but not after you have tossed 10 heads already."

What more can I possibly say? I don't know why people here like to play with words. The original dissagreement was about this:

"You could flip a million coins and each time get heads"

I tried to point out the total possibilities of this happening and got attacked. It's not my fault that some of you people don't know further from the absolute basics. Anyone else would have immidiately understood me and wouldn't get stuck like that.


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5514944 - 04/14/06 07:26 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I completely, immediately understood what it was that you were saying. However, you also said that, after a few throws, each individual flip is no longer 50/50. That is wrong, and my only point, the only one I have addressed, is that each flip of a coin is always 50/50.

As I said before, simple, and easy.

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5515013 - 04/14/06 08:05 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

But why think about the tenth flip as an individual? Ofcourse it is 50-50 but that doesn't matter because the possibilities affecting the outcome of the tenth flip are what they are, which is a lot less than 50%.


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5515064 - 04/14/06 08:19 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

What more can I possibly say? I don't know why people here like to play with words.




wise words  :thumbup:


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5515084 - 04/14/06 08:24 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
But why think about the tenth flip as an individual? Ofcourse it is 50-50 but that doesn't matter because the possibilities affecting the outcome of the tenth flip are what they are, which is a lot less than 50%.




The possibilities affecting the outcome of the flip? Two sides of a coin, one possible outcome.

Your statistics for five, ten flips might predict the chances for each set of outcomes, but it does not specify which flip is going to have which outcome. Each individual flip is only determined by 50/50.

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5515117 - 04/14/06 08:35 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

No, it doesn't predict a set of outcomes it oredicts what the outcome of the tenth flip would be. The possibilities of the flip be heads again as the previous 9 is not 50-50 because you HAVE to take ito consideration the past.


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5516243 - 04/14/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You are mistaking two separate ideas: tossing a single coin once, and tossing a single coin multiple times.

Each time you flip a single coin, there are only 2 possibilities (heads, tails) so each possibility has a 50% chance of coming up.

If you toss a coin multiple times and look for a specific result, say heads, then each time you flip heads the chances will  be smaller. (you multiply the chances of each individual throw to get the chance of throwing heads N number of times)

Say, p = Px^N, where p is the probability of tossing a result x (given by probability Px) a total of N times.

ie:
chances of throwing heads once: 50% (p = .5^1)
chances of throwing heads twice: 25% (p = .5^2)
chances of throwing heads three times: 12.5% (p = .5^3)
chances of throwing heads four times: 6.25% (p = .5^4)

It only does that for repeated tosses where you are looking for a specific result. Each individual toss still has a 50% chance of turning up heads or tails.

Simple probability :wink:


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: trendal]
    #5516319 - 04/14/06 03:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i can't put my disbelief into words. and i still can't believe this has to be spelled out. isnt this material supposed to be covered by 10th grade these days?


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5516355 - 04/14/06 03:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The possibilities of the flip be heads again as the previous 9 is not 50-50 because you HAVE to take ito consideration the past.

What if you replace the coin with a new one that hasn't been flipped yet and which has no history of 9 heads in a row?


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Diploid]
    #5516510 - 04/14/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

lol. true, what if you wiped the coins "karma" or introduced a coin that didnt already have stored karma that somehow defied the laws of probability


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: trendal]
    #5517166 - 04/14/06 08:39 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"You are mistaking two separate ideas: tossing a single coin once, and tossing a single coin multiple times."

I am not mistaking anything ffs. I explained it a million times. The only error I did was that I forgot to multiply the probabilities with the first 50-50 (1/2) when I was analytically showing how the outcome of the 3d coin possibilities can be calculated. A mistake I didn't do the first time. Anyway I still think that a few people here like to stick to things just for the sake of it. And you trendal, having red the entire post how can you possibly think I am mistaking these ideas. Actually I don't even know why I am still discussing it!!


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5517361 - 04/14/06 09:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

if you have a fair coin, the odds of it being heads or tails are 50% on each flip. the previous history of the coin doesn't affect them. you can prove this yourself by flipping a coin a few times and then making a prediction about the next flip. after repeating this many times you will find that you are right about 50% of the time proving you cannot use a coin's history to predict its future. furthermore, in the real world if you flipped a coin 100 times and got heads each time it would make more sense to bet heads again then to bet tails, not the other way around. this is because 100 consecutative heads would likely indicate the coin wasn't fair and was somehow more likely to land on heads.

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: trendal]
    #5517375 - 04/14/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Each individual toss still has a 50% chance of turning up heads or tails.



Actually, I believe each individual toss has a 100% chance of turning up heads or tails(or 99.9999...%, accounting for the tiny probability that it will land on its side).


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: porcupine]
    #5517380 - 04/14/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If you play roulette and you see that the red color has come up 13 consecutive times, isn't it a relatively safe bet to put your money in black?


this statement shows that you dont understand probability. think about it, if it came up red 13 consecutive times, then wouldn't it make just as much sense to say its likely to come up red again?

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: porcupine]
    #5517679 - 04/15/06 12:19 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Lol, ofcourse not.... well, I will not try to explain it again to you. Probabilities say that it's highly unlikely that red will come up again and it is extremely understandable by common sense. I am sorry that you do not understand this and pretend you do.


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5517693 - 04/15/06 12:25 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

so you're claiming you can predict the outcome of a coin flip based on the previous history of the coin with greater than 50% accuracy?

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: porcupine]
    #5517726 - 04/15/06 12:38 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Nope, I never said that. I only said that the overall posibilities of for example 3 heads in 3 tosses are 12.5%. Each individual coin ofcourse has 50-50 and it doesn't matter if it is the first or the last tossed. Stop trying to prove me wrong. Anyway I don't see this as a game of who is right and wrong. And the only reason you guys get stick in this one coin is 50-50 is most probably because you don't know more about statistics and possibilities.

+Look at what you claimed before:

"If you play roulette and you see that the red color has come up 13 consecutive times, isn't it a relatively safe bet to put your money in black?


this statement shows that you dont understand probability. think about it, if it came up red 13 consecutive times, then wouldn't it make just as much sense to say its likely to come up red again?"

You are confused but it's ok. We are talking about normal conditions here and not whether the ball has been twicked to stay at red. You could add-in that factor but we never talked about that.


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5517739 - 04/15/06 12:44 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Each individual coin ofcourse has 50-50 and it doesn't matter if it is the first or the last tossed.

thats what i think the people dissagreeing with you have been saying all along.


You are confused but it's ok. We are talking about normal conditions here and not whether the ball has been twicked to stay at red. You could add-in that factor but we never talked about that.


but im saying that while its certainly true that the odds of it comming up red 14 consecutive are very slim, once it has already come up red 13 times then the odds of it comming up red or black on the next toss are still 50/50.

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: porcupine]
    #5517778 - 04/15/06 12:58 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The total odds of this happenning are 1/2^14 which are very low. Now, I will not continue this playing with words that you do, you can play all you like on your own. And I have expained myself lots of times, go read all the posts carefully.


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5518047 - 04/15/06 05:40 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
. And the only reason you guys get stick in this one coin is 50-50 is most probably because you don't know more about statistics and possibilities.




Um, no, it is because of the fact that you personally stated that one coin flip isn't always 50/50.

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
No, mate it's not a 50% chance every time. The second time you throw a coin, the change to get heads again is 25%, the third time is 12.5% and so on...




You later on state that it is a 50/50 chance all the time.

Now, I ask you, who is playing with words here? :lol: Don't act as though the people who are debating this with you "simply don't understand probability and statistics". In the beginning of this debate, you assuredly proclaimed that each flip is not a 50/50 chance all of the time.

Instead of writing us all off as being confused, or not understanding, why don't you reread the thread and simply admit that, at first, you were either unintentionally or intentionally wrong?

Simple, and easy. :smirk:

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5518164 - 04/15/06 07:01 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, I also still read you that after the come out of some 'unbalanced' possibilities, a mystical force will pull the next throws to the expected average outcome. That is only true for large, unpredictable numbers, as I said already. If you bring small and large numbers too near together, you will fall for the illusion, that the outbalancing event should follow quite immediately after the occurring imbalance. That is not true.
You know, 10 times throwing head in a row is 0.5^10 = 0.0009767... that means 1/1024 (for a ten time throwing package).
Now you will need (approximately) 1024 more (of ten time packages, that makes 10240 single) throws again to get the outbalancing counterthrow of 10 times throwing numbers. Will you say after 10000 throws, when it occurs "Wow, I have promised that !"
No, because the chances are equally high to get 10 heads again :wink:
The higher the number of throws, the nearer the average sum of chances approximate to .5. Finally, with a number of unlimited throws, it will be exactly .5. Only then it is the same like with one throw :wink:


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5518339 - 04/15/06 09:08 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"Shroomerious said:
No, mate it's not a 50% chance every time. The second time you throw a coin, the change to get heads again is 25%, the third time is 12.5% and so on...
"

I meant the total possibilities and there was absolutely no reason for you to think that I meant the individual coin since it didn't matter at all. You just wanted ta play smart... that's it. Now, I think I had enough of this debate, I'll go on with my work and leave you people to play with words...intentionally or unintentionally


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5519314 - 04/15/06 08:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
"Shroomerious said:
No, mate it's not a 50% chance every time. The second time you throw __a__ coin, the change to get heads again is 25%, the third time is 12.5% and so on..."

I meant the total possibilities and there was absolutely no reason for you to think that I meant the individual coin




Yeah, I wonder where anyone got the idea that you were talking about a single coin... :rolleyes: :smirk:

It's OK to admit you were wrong.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlineporcupine
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: trendal]
    #5519353 - 04/15/06 09:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

howcome you never answered my PMs trendal?

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: porcupine]
    #5519556 - 04/15/06 10:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I just checked and I don't have any PMs from you  :confused:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: trendal]
    #5519667 - 04/15/06 10:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

ok let me send you a test PM and see if it works, alright?

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: porcupine]
    #5519675 - 04/15/06 10:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

ok i sent you a test PM, reply to it and also lemme know if you got it on here in case i dont get your reply or in case you havent gotten it.

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: trendal]
    #5519763 - 04/15/06 11:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

And that is the reason I am pissed off. Why would I ever talk about a single coin? I thought I was talking to people who understand some things but as it turned out lots of people here just want to show off. I have deepened quite a lot in this particular science because of my work and think of some things as self explanatory. Although one does not have to deepen much to understand that I couldn't possibly be talking about an individual coin. As I said before, for some reason some people here like to play with words and it is normal for a spirituality and philosophy forum really...I shouldn't get angry. That is what I want to say and some of you may want to think about it.


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5519840 - 04/15/06 11:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

And that is the reason I am pissed off. Why would I ever talk about a single coin?

I don't know, why wouldn't you?

You said "The second time you throw a coin, the change to get heads again is 25%" which is not correct. You said "a coin". How were we supposed to take it any differently than you meaning one coin?

Exactness in communication is a necessity, if you wish to be understood.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: trendal]
    #5519849 - 04/15/06 11:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I answered already. I meant the overall chance because saying that about a single coin not only is it ridiculous but also besides the point.


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5520090 - 04/16/06 01:18 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

but you didnt say it cleary. its not our fault if you dont express your self clearly. in math it can make all the difference how you word something.

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: porcupine]
    #5520175 - 04/16/06 02:09 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Give the guy a damn break, sheesh.


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[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Psychoslut]
    #5520181 - 04/16/06 02:18 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoslut said:
Give the guy a damn break, sheesh.



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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Psychoslut]
    #5520425 - 04/16/06 08:42 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoslut said:
Give the guy a damn break, sheesh.




Maybe he should give himself a break and understand exactly why everyone was under the impression that he meant something that he (may or may not have) meant. Its one thing to simply say "yeah, I didn't mean to say that, I understand why you have all thought that", and it is an entirely different thing to say "you guys play with words, I didn't mean that, duh, who would mean that, you guys don't understand, blah blah blah blah blah".

Fucking christ, let's not accuse others of playing games with words when it is oneself who isn't even correctly using words, eh? Don't be shocked when people read what you said as being what you said, not as what you actually meant. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5520509 - 04/16/06 09:29 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I take some things as standards. No reason not to. The fact that you tried to make a point out of something so simple shows something about you, not me. For me, it's like saying "I am going for a walk" and you saying "will you use both of your legs?".


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5520521 - 04/16/06 09:35 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
I take some things as standards. No reason not to. The fact that you tried to make a point out of something so simple shows something about you, not me. For me, it's like saying "I am going for a walk" and you saying "will you use both of your legs?".




Yes, it shows something about you in that you failed to effectively use one's words to convey the precise meaning that you suspossedly intended. The fact that myself and others had to continously repeat this simple point until you eventually admitted that you weren't saying what you actually said is quite revealing.

You continue to subtly attack others who were involved in investigating into the precise meaning instead of simply admitting your mistake. Hey man, no one gives a shit about anyone else's self-held image, so you can just relax and not worry that you made a mistake. Simple.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5520527 - 04/16/06 09:38 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Right, using the same words, with my colleagues I never had a problem because as I said some things are quite obvious. You tried to make a point out of nothing and as it seems you are not going to admit it. I am tired of this, so I say we finish spending our time on it.


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5520540 - 04/16/06 09:46 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
Right, using the same words, with my colleagues I never had a problem because as I said some things are quite obvious. You tried to make a point out of nothing and as it seems you are not going to admit it.




Yes, some things are quite obvious, such as, how you stated that, the second time one tosses a coin, the chance of getting heads is 25%.

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
No, mate it's not a 50% chance every time. The second time you throw a coin, the change to get heads again is 25%, the third time is 12.5% and so on...




Perhaps you are the one who doesn't understand what is so very obvious?


Quote:


I am tired of this, so I say we finish spending our time on it.




This is like the fifteenth time you have stated this. Maybe you should stop arguing with the people who pointed out your mistake, turning it agansit them, instead of simply just saying "you are right, I did say that, as everyone here can see, so i'll just drop it now".

It is your choice, man.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5520545 - 04/16/06 09:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

" Shroomerious said:
No, mate it's not a 50% chance every time. The second time you throw a coin, the change to get heads again is 25%, the third time is 12.5% and so on...



Perhaps you are the one who doesn't understand what is so very obvious?
"

For the 100th time I will say that I meant the overall possibilities and you failed to understand it and made a point out of nothing keep quoting me and I'll keep repeating that.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5520570 - 04/16/06 10:00 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
For the 100th time I will say that I meant the overall possibilities and you failed to understand it and made a point out of nothing keep quoting me and I'll keep repeating that.




:lol:

Why did I, and everyone else, fail to understand what you meant? Hhmm....


Quote:

Shroomerious said:
No, mate it's not a 50% chance every time. The second time you throw a coin, the change to get heads again is 25%, the third time is 12.5% and so on...




Now, if you said this...

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
Each toss of the coin has a 50/50 chance, as there is only two possibillities for an outcome and only one outcome. For five flips, statisticially speaking, the odds of flipping heads every time would be less than 50/50, but those statistics do not specify which flip will be head or tails, nor do they take away from the fact that each individual flip has a 50/50 chance




.. and I were to continue on with my point, as I have, then I would be making a point out of nothing.

However, since, in fact, you did say this:

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
No, mate it's not a 50% chance every time. The second time you throw a coin, the change to get heads again is 25%, the third time is 12.5% and so on...




My point is valid; your refusal to admit this is the reason why this thread continues on in this manner. Stop hiijacking it, alright?  :rolleyes:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5520583 - 04/16/06 10:09 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Right. Here is fireworksgod to save the thread. Lol, same thing again. Your comments on the link I posted you alone indicate that you don't know what you are saying and tried to understand statistics at that instant, just to show that you are able to comment on it and that you are still right. You will not admit it and I will not try to repeat for the 101 time what I have already said. The people who red this post can judge us.


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5520590 - 04/16/06 10:13 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:

I'd comment on how it is that you love to feel right and blame others for not understanding, but that would be crossing the line of what is acceptable discussion for this forum. Have a great day, the sun in the sky knows that you were right! :sun:

:lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5520592 - 04/16/06 10:15 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

What else than irony all the way to the end...


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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5520754 - 04/16/06 11:37 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I do understand shroomie, somehow, at least, in the infinitesimals, the improbable occurrence will be erased, BUT
each improbability creates some kind of 'potential' or 'antipotential' in the momentary context.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5520790 - 04/16/06 11:46 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I know for a fact that there is a 100% probability you should bothe stfu and drop this cause its not going anywhere.


--------------------



[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]

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Re: why investigate prayer in the first place? [Re: Psychoslut]
    #5520806 - 04/16/06 11:54 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoslut said:
I know for a fact that there is a 100% probability you should bothe stfu and drop this cause its not going anywhere.




I think there is a great probability that the issue has already been dropped and you are just dragging it out further. :rolleyes:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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