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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Killing Truth
    #5508688 - 04/12/06 03:47 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Truth exists. Because, suppose truth does not exist (Suppose it!).

Then, this is true. (The fact that truth does not exist).

Therefore, truth exists.





Okay, so I'm going to claim that this proof for the existence of truth is wrong; even more so, it is outright bullshit. I am going to argue that truth does not exist, that it is not necessary, that it is wrong thinking at the most basic level.

I wonder if anyone is interested in epistomology at the most basic level - that is, I'm going to argue that TRUTH STINKS.

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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Re: Killing Truth [Re: Nomad]
    #5508929 - 04/12/06 04:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

truth is truth..
...even as lies! :p

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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Killing Truth [Re: Nomad]
    #5509159 - 04/12/06 05:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Let's have a discussion about this. I'm interested. I love the original argument. Please refute it. You said you don't agree with it. Why? Back it up.


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Namaste

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InvisibleI_was_the_walrus
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Re: Killing Truth [Re: Nomad]
    #5510207 - 04/12/06 10:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I am going to argue that truth does not exist, that it is not necessary, that it is wrong thinking at the most basic level.





If this statement is true, then youve created and oxymoron. Your going around in circles.

It makes sense, then it doesnt make any sense at all.

What came first...the chicken or the egg?

Heres one for ya..
A rooster is sitting at the top of a barn..the kind that comes to a point at the top. The sun is shining from the east..HOWEVER the wind is blowing from the west. An egg is layed..what side will it go down? The east side or the west side?











Roosters dont lay eggs. Alright, Im done. Sorry for wasting your time.

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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Killing Truth [Re: Nomad]
    #5510231 - 04/12/06 10:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

A good refutation of the argument you posted would be that it tries to pick itself up by its own bootstraps. It's refering to itself. You could use the same argument to say that truth doesn't exist, and it would be just as valid.

If nothing is true, then nothing would be true. If nothing is true, then nothing exists. 'Nothing' like before spacetime. any attempt to prove truth doesn't exist would be nothing more than an attempt at sophistry.

The 'ettiquette' in argumentative reasoning is that there is no true argument, only arguments that are more truthfull than others.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: Killing Truth [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5511423 - 04/13/06 08:17 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Let's have a discussion about this. I'm interested. I love the original argument. Please refute it. You said you don't agree with it. Why? Back it up.

I was quite drunk when I discovered that truth does not exist, and I had some kind of elaborate and beautiful proof, involving the statement that "falsehood does not exist" and an argument of analogy, that is, if one accepts the original proof as valid, one would have to accept another one as valid, too, by which you would end up with the fact that all things are true, which seemed like a good thing to me, but I was quite drunk. I don't get it anymore.

Anyway, there's this "pulling up by its own bootstraps" thing someone else noted. Here's how to refute the original argument, as formal as I can get to.

Assume truth does not exist. Then, this is true. Therefore, truth exists.

The problem is that the second sentence uses an unstated assumption, namely, that truth exists. Stating all assumptions explicitly, the original proof looks like this:

Assume that truth exists. Furthermore, assume that truth does not exist. Then, this is true. Therefore, truth exists.

It doesn't work, because you cannot state that truth does not exist under the assumption that it does. It's like:

Assume x = 2. Look at two cases: Case 1: Assume x = 2 and y = 1. (...) Case 2: Assume x = 3. (...).

That kind of thing is formally wrong. It's nothing, not a proof at all. It's not mathematics or anything.

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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: Killing Truth [Re: Gomp]
    #5511438 - 04/13/06 08:29 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

truth is truth..
...even as lies! :p


Here's the problem. People say: It is true that there is a bottle on this table. But this is just saying that it is true that it is true that there is a bottle on this table. To claim a statement as true is just another statement. The notion of truth involves the idea that there is something else than statements - namely, true statements, but that is just a statement. To say that something is true is to make the statement that it is true that it is true. There is nothing else but statements, statements everywhere. One can do away with truth: There is a bottle on this table.

That is why truth stinks. It is saying that there is something else than what there is (statements). It is losing the Tao.

Better be a Zen Master. The girls love it.

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OfflineNomad
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Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: Killing Truth [Re: David_Scape]
    #5511599 - 04/13/06 09:23 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

A good refutation of the argument you posted would be that it tries to pick itself up by its own bootstraps. It's refering to itself. You could use the same argument to say that truth doesn't exist, and it would be just as valid.

Indeed. That is what I do - claiming that truth does not exist, and that it is valid. Because although the argument seems like a purely logical one, it is not. It takes reference to the world. It is looking at a thing and discerning a quality of it - looking at the assumption "truth does not exist" and saying it is true. This is nothing else than looking at a bottle and saying it is shiny. There is no reason to accept that. It doesn't look shiny to me. I claim that truth does not exist, but I do not claim that this statement is true (or that it is false, for that matter). Truth and Falsehood are nonsensical concepts to me. The statement "truth does not exist" has four words and seventeen letters, it is black symbols on white ground, but it is not true, nor false.

If nothing is true, then nothing would be true. If nothing is true, then nothing exists. 'Nothing' like before spacetime. any attempt to prove truth doesn't exist would be nothing more than an attempt at sophistry.

More exactly, I do not actually claim that truth does not exist, although I must admit that I state that regularly - I can do that, because I am operating under the assumption that truth does not exist, and it is all just words with some loose meaning to me. I claim that the concept of truth is nonsensical. It is like making the statements "Qweghrat exists", or "Qweghrat does not exist". This is silly, because a Qweghrat is just a word I made up. It is nonsensical.

If one accepts that "truth does not exist" is not a valid statement (because of self-recursion), then it follows that the negation - "truth does exist" - is not a valid statement, too. If the concept of truth makes sense, it must be something which does not have the quality of existance. To claim that truth exists is like claiming that truth is green, in that case.

I don't buy that. Something which does not have the quality of existance is nonsensical to me. We are humans; we hide in caves from lions. There are places where lions exist, and there are places where caves exist. There are also places where lions exist, and caves don't - you better stay away from them.

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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Killing Truth [Re: Nomad]
    #5512539 - 04/13/06 02:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"'truth does not exist' has four words and seventeen letters"

"'truth does not exist' has one word and one letter"

You know one of these phrases has a quality that the other does not. You can't deny that that quality, called "truth", exists for one statement, but not the other.


--------------------
Namaste

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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: Killing Truth [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5514554 - 04/14/06 12:46 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

'truth does not exist' has four words and seventeen letters"

"'truth does not exist' has one word and one letter"

You know one of these phrases has a quality that the other does not. You can't deny that that quality, called "truth", exists for one statement, but not the other.


They are different phrases, they have different qualities. The first phrase has ten words and fifty letters, the second phrase has ten words and thirty-nine letters. If I show you the first phrase, you will say it is true. If I show you the second phrase, you will say it is wrong. That is all to me; it is nothing different from counting the letters. It is taking an object, putting it in the world somewhere, and watching how the world reacts. Does it drown or does it swim? I cannot discern any quality called truth or falsehood in the phrases, it is just that the world reacts differently to them. Mathematics is but the manipulation of symbols.

I do not claim that this post contains any true statement. If I write stuff like "hagdsgfdjsdjdj hgdghf erz hdhd hdgdgh", I will not get replies. That is the only reason why I write this way.

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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: Killing Truth [Re: Nomad]
    #5514565 - 04/14/06 12:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I guess what I am arguiung for is some branch of nihilism, minus the insanity.

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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Killing Truth [Re: Nomad]
    #5514704 - 04/14/06 02:41 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


I do not claim that this post contains any true statement. If I write stuff like "hagdsgfdjsdjdj hgdghf erz hdhd hdgdgh", I will not get replies. That is the only reason why I write this way.





You wouldn't get any replies, because what you just typed was nonsense. It corresponds to nothing. And if it did, what it corresponded to would probably not interest the people of S&P.

However, the actual words you chose to type, corresponds to something in a meaningfull way. If a symbol corresponds to something, the symbol is automatically imbued with meaning. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a symbol.

And, yes, you do write that way just to get replies. But how do you write that way? By using symbols that have meaning. Meaning that you know exists. If you didn't, you wouldn't be able to communicate.

You are trying to prove truth/meaning doesn't exist using the very same concepts to navigate conceptually. You can't attack a self-evident axiom such as this and not fold in on yourself. It can't work.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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Offlinekotik
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Re: Killing Truth [Re: David_Scape]
    #5514766 - 04/14/06 03:58 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i wonder how many groundbreaking theories were created by drunks.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: Killing Truth [Re: David_Scape]
    #5514834 - 04/14/06 05:39 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If a symbol corresponds to something, the symbol is automatically imbued with meaning. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a symbol.

Assuming this is correct, the statement that "a symbol corresponds to something" must correspond to something. But I cannot see anything it corresponds to.

And, yes, you do write that way just to get replies. But how do you write that way? By using symbols that have meaning. Meaning that you know exists. If you didn't, you wouldn't be able to communicate.

I question that meaning is a quality of a statement. There is nothing to lose, for it is not possible to think meaningless - it is not posssible to do this with the faculty of thinking, in the very same way as you cannot walk with your head. It does not work.

You can't attack a self-evident axiom such as this and not fold in on yourself. It can't work.

What I am saying is that it is not a valid axiom. It is using itself as an assumption. Since it has an assumption (itself), it is not an axiom.

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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: Killing Truth [Re: Nomad]
    #5514836 - 04/14/06 05:42 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

When you say that a statement is true, you are really saying something about the world, not the statement. However, the notion of truth entails that it is in the statement. It is not true that the lion eats the antilope - that is, the statement "the lion eats the antilope" is not true (nor false). It is just that the lion eats the antilope.

Unknow truth. And what is unknowing truth? It is the ability to claim that truth does not exist, and claim it with conviction.

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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: Killing Truth [Re: Nomad]
    #5514837 - 04/14/06 05:43 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

This is the beast of rationalism, the oldest enemy of mankind. Slay it.

Kill truth!

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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: Killing Truth [Re: Nomad]
    #5514841 - 04/14/06 05:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

For something to be a quality of something, it must be possible to state that it is not so. White horses exist. Green horses do not exist. That is why white and green are valid qualities of horses.

For truth to be a quality of a statement, it must be possible to at least state that it is not a quality of a statement. This is not possible - it is not possible to state that "true statements do not exist".

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OfflineNomad
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Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: Killing Truth [Re: Nomad]
    #5514843 - 04/14/06 05:52 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The man at the marketplace, shouting out that "Truth does not exist!", will be insane by any of your standards, for he claims a truth (you say). Adopting the concept of truth makes it not debatable. It is, therefore, to be dogmatic, ideological, and ignorant, for you claim something which you will not - you cannot - debate. Your opponent may write a thousand pages of arguments, but he cannot convince you, for you are right in and of yourself. This is to be someone who burns books.

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OfflineNomad
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Re: Killing Truth [Re: Nomad]
    #5514844 - 04/14/06 05:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I will continue forever.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Killing Truth [Re: David_Scape]
    #5514971 - 04/14/06 07:38 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

David_Scape said:
And if it did, what it corresponded to would probably not interest the people of S&P.




What the hell is "S&P"? :wtf:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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