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sparks8
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9-11, conspiracy?
#5508486 - 04/12/06 03:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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do you think the planes were the sole cause of the three wtc buildings colapse? how about the pentagon, did a plane hit it? did flight 93 crash, or was it shot down as some claim? theres a ton of info out there on this if you look. maybe this has been posted already, if so sorry ignore this post. personally im one of the conspiracy nuts. did you know we knew about the impending attack on pearl harbor before it happened? well certain people in the government did anyway. ok disscus if you wish.
"The reflexive first reaction is incredulity -- how, one asks, could anyone even contemplate, never mind actually do such a barbaric thing? But before you shut your mind, check the resum?s -- these aren't Generation X geeks subsisting on potato chips and PlayStation. Then look at the case they present." -Robert Steinback, Miami Herald
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ -this websites has TONS more information
Scholars Repudiate Official Version of 9/11
Scholars claim government's account violates laws of physics and engineering.
(PRWEB via PR Web Direct) January 27, 2006 -- An influential group of prominent experts and scholars have joined together alleging that senior government officials have covered up crucial facts about what really happened on 9/11. The members of this new non-partisan association, "Scholars for 9/11 Truth" (S9/11T), are convinced their research proves the current administration has been dishonest with the nation about events in New York and Washington, D.C.
These experts contend that books and articles by members and associates have established that the World Trade Center was almost certainly brought down by controlled demolitions and that the available relevant evidence casts grave doubt on the official story about the attack on the Pentagon. They believe that the government not only permitted 9/11 to occur but may even have orchestrated these events to facilitate its political agenda.
The society includes U.S. and international faculty and students of history, science, military affairs, psychology, and even philosophy. According to its spokesmen, S9/11T represents a concerted effort to uphold the standards of truth and justice and to strengthen democracy in this nation, which has taken a terrible hit in the aftermath of 9/11, when "everything changed." Its function is to bring scientific rigor to the study of 9/11 phenomena.
The members of this group are dedicated to exposing falsehoods and to revealing truths behind 9/11, "letting the chips fall where they may." The evidence has become sufficiently strong that they are speaking out. They are actively devoting themselves to reporting the results of their research to the public by means of lectures, articles, and other venues.
The society includes numerous notable professors and scholars, including:
* Morgan Reynolds, Texas A & M Professor Emeritus of Economics, former Chief Economist for the Department of Labor for President George W. Bush, and former Director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis
* Steven E. Jones, Professor of Physics, Brigham Young University, co-chair of S9/11T and the creator of its home page and its forum
* Robert M. Bowman, former Director of the U.S. "Star Wars" Space Defense Program in both Republican and Democratic administrations, a former senior Air Force Colonel with 101 combat missions, who is also a Catholic Archbishop
* Lloyd DeMause, Director of The Institute for Psychohistory, President of the International Psychohistorical Association and Editor of The Journal of Psychohistory
* James H. Fetzer, Distinguished McKnight University Professor of Philosophy at the University of Minnesota, Duluth, author or editor of more than 20 books and co-chair of S9/11T
* Andreas Von Buelow, former assistant German defense minister, director of the German Secret Service, minister for research and technology, and member of Parliament for 25 years
The society, founded by Professors Fetzer and Jones, who serve as its co-chairs, is approaching 50 members to date. Fetzer, a philosopher of science, observed that the government's "official account" is not even physically possible, because it violates laws of nature. "What we have been told is fine," he said, "if you are willing to believe impossible things. Serious scholars don't believe in tooth fairies."
Beyond encouraging its members to vigorously express their concerns on this score through lectures, conferences, symposia, articles, and books as well as other access routes that publicize their findings, the society's initial activities, which are expected to increase in frequency and intensity, include the following projects and endeavors:
* Professor Jones is refining his influential analysis of the physics of the collapse of buildings at the World Trade Center.
* Professor Fetzer is editing a collection of new studies about 9/11 that will include contributions from the members of S9/11T.
* A major conference is being planned for this fall to further inform the American public about the group's most recent findings
Studies by the society's founders and by prominent theologian David Ray Griffin, who has taken a leading role in exposing false claims about 9/11, are accessible from the association's home page, www.ScholarsFor911Truth.org. Information for those who may want to join S9/11T can also be found there.
the following is a press release concerning Scholars for 9/11 Truth. if you don't want to read the whole thing scroll down to the bullet points for the meat of their argument.
EXPERTS CLAIM OFFICIAL 9/11 STORY IS A HOAX
Scholars for 9/11 Truth call for verification and publication by an international consortium.
Duluth, MN (PRWEB) January 30, 2006 -- A group of distinguished experts and scholars, including Robert M. Bowman, James H. Fetzer, Wayne Madsen, John McMurtry, Morgan Reynolds, and Andreas von Buelow, have concluded that senior government officials have covered up crucial facts about what really happened on 9/11.
They have joined with others in common cause as members of "Scholars for 9/11 Truth" (S9/11T), because they are convinced, based on their own research, that the administration has been deceiving the nation about critical events in New York and Washington, D.C.
These experts suggest these events may have been orchestrated by elements within the administration to manipulate Americans into supporting policies at home and abroad they would never have condoned absent "another Pearl Harbor."
They believe that this White House is incapable of investigating itself and hope the possibility that Congress might hold an unaccountable administration accountable is not merely naive or wishful thinking.
They are encouraging news services around the world to secure scientific advice by taking advantage of university resources to verify or to falsify their discoveries. Extraordinary situations, they believe, require extraordinary measures.
If this were done, they contend, one of the great hoaxes of history would stand naked before the eyes of the world and its perpetrators would be clearly exposed, which may be the only hope for saving this nation from ever greater abuse.
They hope this might include The New York Times, which, in their opinion, has repeatedly failed to exercise the leadership expected from our nation's newspaper of record by a series of inexplicable lapses. It has failed to vigorously investigate tainted elections, lies leading to the war in Iraq, or illegal NSA spying on the American people, major unconstitutional events. In their view, The Times might compensate for its loss of stature by helping to reveal the truth about one of the great turning-point events of modern history.
Stunning as it may be to acknowledge, they observe, the government has brought but one indictment against anyone and, to the best of their knowledge, has not even reprimanded anyone for incompetence or dereliction of duty. The official conspiracy theory--that nineteen Arab hijackers under control of one man in the wilds of Afghanistan brought this about--is unsupportable by the evidential data, which they have studied. They even believe there are good reasons for suspecting that video tapes officially attributed to Osama bin Laden are not genuine.
They have found the government's own investigation to be severely flawed. The 9/11 Commission, designated to investigate the attack, was directed by Philip Zelikow, part of the Bush transition team in the NSA sector and the co-author of a book with Condoleezza Rice. A Bush supporter and director of national security affairs, he could hardly be expected to conduct an objective and impartial investigation.
They have discovered that The 9/11 Commission Report is replete with omissions, distortions, and factual errors, which David Ray Griffin has documented in his book, The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions. The official report, for example, entirely ignores the collapse of WTC7, a 47-story building, which was hit by no airplanes, was only damaged by a few small fires, and fell seven hours after the attack.
Here are some of the kinds of considerations that these experts and scholars find profoundly troubling:
# In the history of structural engineering, steel-frame high-rise buildings have never been brought down due to fires either before or since 9/11, so how can fires have brought down three in one day? How is this possible?
# The BBC has reported that at least five of the nineteen alleged "hijackers" have turned up alive and well living in Saudi Arabia, yet according to the FBI, they were among those killed in the attacks. How is this possible?
# Frank DeMartini, a project manager for the WTC, said the buildings were designed with load redistribution capabilities to withstand the impact of airliners, whose effects would be like "puncturing mosquito netting with a pencil." Yet they completely collapsed. How is this possible?
# Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700?F, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800?F under optimal conditions, and UL certified the steel used to 2,000?F for six hours, the buildings cannot have collapsed due to heat from the fires. How is this possible?
# Flight 77, which allegedly hit the building, left the radar screen in the vicinity of the Ohio/Kentucky border, only to "reappear" in very close proximity to the Pentagon shortly before impact. How is this possible?
# Foreign "terrorists" who were clever enough to coordinate hijacking four commercial airliners seemingly did not know that the least damage to the Pentagon would be done by hitting its west wing. How is this possible?
# Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta, in an underground bunker at the White House, watched Vice President Cheney castigate a young officer for asking, as the plane drew closer and closer to the Pentagon, "Do the orders still stand?" The order cannot have been to shoot it down, but must have been the opposite. How is this possible?
# A former Inspector General for the Air Force has observed that Flight 93, which allegedly crashed in Pennsylvania, should have left debris scattered over an area less than the size of a city block; but it is scattered over an area of about eight square miles. How is this possible?
# A tape recording of interviews with air traffic controllers on duty on 9/11 was deliberately crushed, cut into very small pieces, and distributed in assorted places to insure its total destruction. How is this possible?
# The Pentagon conducted a training exercise called "MASCAL" simulating the crash of a Boeing 757 into the building on 24 October 2000, and yet Condoleezza Rice, among others, has repeatedly asserted that "no one ever imagined" a domestic airplane could be used as a weapon. How is this possible?
Their own physics research has established that only controlled demolitions are consistent with the near-gravity speed of fall and virtually symmetrical collapse of all three of the WTC buildings. While turning concrete into very fine dust, they fell straight-down into their own footprints.
These experts and scholars have found themselves obliged to conclude that the 9/11 atrocity represents an instance of the approach--which has been identified by Karl Rove, the President's closest adviser--of "creating our own reality."
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RandalFlagg
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5508578 - 04/12/06 03:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Oh my God...not another one of these posts.
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unbeliever
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: Oh my God...not another one of these posts.
People think they're intellectual thought rebels by regurgitating this crap. Sigh.
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wharfrat12
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: unbeliever]
#5508735 - 04/12/06 04:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Or maybe he just found it interesting and figured some people might want to discuss it. Just maybe.
-------------------- "Tell me the cost, I can pay let me go, tell me love is not lost. Sell everything, without love day to day insanity's king."
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daimyo
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5508790 - 04/12/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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kungpow
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: daimyo]
#5508811 - 04/12/06 04:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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So do you guys above not believe these theories. After looking at all of the evidence I really don't see how somebody could not believe these theories. I was skeptical at first because my dad was all into it. I was just like yeah sure just to make him happy. But the more things he told me the more I believed.
A while back I watched a really good video about this and it convinced me that the government had a big part in 9/11. There are so many things that happened that day that could NOT actually happened unless they were planned.
Try to have an open mind and look at the evidence and you'll see it.
~Peace Out
-------------------- Monotub #3 - check out my best grow to date!!!!
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giz
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: kungpow]
#5508856 - 04/12/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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i will start looking into it the day someone can give a somewhat good reason why al quida would work together with the us goverment on this job. forget us gov motives, i want to hear the terrorists motive..
it just doesnt make any sense.
how much would the us goverment had to pay these terrorists to shut up about it, i mean , what could be better for the terrorists if they could give some indicatinos that us govermetn planned an attack on us land.
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sparks8
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: giz]
#5508870 - 04/12/06 04:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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i say this only as a response to giz's post. bin laden said he had no part in it, he said bush was a liar.
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kungpow
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: giz]
#5508888 - 04/12/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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That's the thing it never was the terrorists. It was the government all along. The whole terrorist thing was just a way to pin it on somebody. I believe that the government had many reasons to plan 9/11. The only way people will allow you to take away their freedoms is with fear. If We as the people of the united states of america are afraid of another terrorist attack then we'll do anything to stop another. That includes taking away our rights just like bush did not too long ago. All they have to do is say that you're a terrosist and they can listen to your phone calls and everything. It's not good. Before anyone goes bashing this theory please open your mind and do some research. Use some common sense. The best thing to do is find a video to watch. Actually hang on a sec and i'll post one.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2023320890224991194&q=9+11+conspiracy
There you go. Watch that and I'm sure that you will find there is no way that terrorists could of done this.
~PEace Out
-------------------- Monotub #3 - check out my best grow to date!!!!
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downforpot
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: kungpow]
#5508892 - 04/12/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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It's like telling an ignorant person that God has a hand in everything and Jesus loves them and Moses made the waters spread. yea
-------------------- http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
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giz
daydreamer
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: downforpot]
#5508924 - 04/12/06 04:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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yeah okey, thanks for pointing that out, i was under the impression that the claim was that the goverment has gotten a terrorist group to do this.
im not gonna investigate too much in this anyways, im not american but i find it intresting
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sparks8
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: giz]
#5508950 - 04/12/06 04:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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america was founded on a conspiracy. for those that think it's out of the question, consider this: we knew about pearl harbor before it happened too, well the right people in the gov did anyway.
Also, Bush said in a speach months before 9-11 he wished there would be another pearl harbor.
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DarkFluFFy
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509061 - 04/12/06 05:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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its true, our government fucked us. There is no way that the twin towers could collapse from jet fuel. That is physically impossible, also the twin towers where constructed in reinforced layers so if there was a bombing or a plain crash the other levels below the explosion could withstand it.
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Adden
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: DarkFluFFy]
#5509141 - 04/12/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
so if there was a bombing or a plain crash the other levels below the explosion could withstand it.
I'll bite... what about the gigantor fucking building falling on the lower levels?
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Redstorm
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509151 - 04/12/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
america was founded on a conspiracy.
Which one would that be?
Quote:
we knew about pearl harbor before it happened too, well the right people in the gov did anyway.
There's a difference between being negligent and being the one who carried out the plot.
Quote:
Also, Bush said in a speach months before 9-11 he wished there would be another pearl harbor.
Source?
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TheWay
just some dude
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: Redstorm]
#5509178 - 04/12/06 05:50 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm glad to see this topic being discussed here. I'd like to encourage people to google up on the spanish-American war, because it started around a mysterious bombing that was blamed on terrorists.
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some1whoisntme
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509285 - 04/12/06 06:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Here's how I see it
So supposedly a ton of firefighters died that day. What if they were actually bribed by the government to go up and set explosives in exchange for new identities and lots of money...
-------------------- "Ignore the distortion you're forced to percieve and believe that what supercedes is love, but who agrees?"
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sparks8
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: Redstorm]
#5509302 - 04/12/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
america was founded on a conspiracy.
Which one would that be?
are you serious? the one where our fore fathers CONSPIRED to brake away from english rule. ever here of something called the boston tea party???
Quote:
Quote:
we knew about pearl harbor before it happened too, well the right people in the gov did anyway.
There's a difference between being negligent and being the one who carried out the plot.
why dont you read my whole sentance. i said for those who think its out of the question.
Quote:
Quote:
Also, Bush said in a speach months before 9-11 he wished there would be another pearl harbor.
Source?
ok i admit a discrepency here, but you can read the FACTS of the matter yourself:
http://www.americanfreepress.net/12_24_02/America_Pearl_Harbored/america_pearl_harbored.html
or
http://pilger.carlton.com/print/124759
next time, do some research before you blindly contest something someone says.
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sparks8
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Quote:
some1whoisntme said: Here's how I see it
So supposedly a ton of firefighters died that day. What if they were actually bribed by the government to go up and set explosives in exchange for new identities and lots of money...
or better yet, i wonder who was in control of security at the wtc in the months leading up to this. see link: http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm
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Edited by sparks8 (04/12/06 06:37 PM)
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Redstorm
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509326 - 04/12/06 06:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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It's not my job to do your research for you. If you make a claim, you back it up. It's standard debating practice.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509348 - 04/12/06 06:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sparks8 said: ok i admit a discrepency here, but you can read the FACTS of the matter yourself:
next time, do some research before you blindly contest something someone says.
You make a glaring error and then accuse Redstorm of not doing any "research"! It appears as if you are the one who did not do any research.
9/11 conspiracy theorists trot this crap out every week on this site. They point to this defense analysis by "Project for the New American Century" (PNAC) as proof that the government planned or was complicit in the 9/11 plot. In this report it says that a new Pearl Harbor could be a catalyst in bringing the country together. Notice nowhere in the report does it suggest that this Pearl Harbor should be encouraged. It merely makes an off-hand comment and recognizes that a bold and terrible attack perpetrated upon a people would rally them together. Well duh...
This statement shows no proof of a conspiracy. It was merely a statement of fact.
Next please.... Where are the tin foil hats when you need them?
Edited by RandalFlagg (04/12/06 06:42 PM)
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sparks8
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: Redstorm]
#5509355 - 04/12/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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considering the subject of two of your points, thats a pretty lame excuse.
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Redstorm
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509363 - 04/12/06 06:41 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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No, it's really not. You post a link that has been posted hundreds of times on this forum, then back it up with nonsense. Weak stuff.
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sparks8
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
You make a glaring error and then accuse Redstorm of not doing any "research"! It appears as if you are the one who did not do any research.
did you read the link? thats not exactly a glaring error.
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Edited by sparks8 (04/12/06 06:44 PM)
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509371 - 04/12/06 06:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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No offense, but Redstorm would beat the hell out of you in a debate.
Bam! I just earned some brownie points with Redstorm.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509377 - 04/12/06 06:46 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sparks8 said:
Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
You make a glaring error and then accuse Redstorm of not doing any "research"! It appears as if you are the one who did not do any research.
did you read the link? thats not exactly a glaring error.
You claimed that Bush said something about a "new Pearl Harbor" in speeches. He never did. Some political think tank did. There's a big difference. You made a glaring error. End of story.
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sparks8
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: No offense, but Redstorm would beat the hell out of you in a debate.
Bam! I just earned some brownie points with Redstorm.
good for you bitch. is redstorm an american? he wasn't aware of the begginings of our country, doesn't seem to bright to me.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509388 - 04/12/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sparks8 said: good for you bitch. is redstorm an american? he wasn't aware of the begginings of our country, doesn't seem to bright to me.
And you don't seem to be too aware of proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation.
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sparks8
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Perle is one of the founders of the Project for the New American Century, the PNAC. Other founders include Dick Cheney, now vice-president, Donald Rumsfeld, defence secretary, Paul Wolfowitz, deputy defence secretary, I Lewis Libby, Cheney's chief of staff, William J Bennett, Reagan's education secretary, and Zalmay Khalilzad, Bush's ambassador to Afghanistan.
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Freeker
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What was that Val Kilmer movie where he was an FBI agent investigating a Native American reservation, some guy named Jimmy. He mingled with the people, until he found out he had native american roots, anyone know that one?
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sparks8
general freak
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
Quote:
sparks8 said: good for you bitch. is redstorm an american? he wasn't aware of the begginings of our country, doesn't seem to bright to me.
And you don't seem to be too aware of proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation.
It's the internet dude, get over it.
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Redstorm
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509403 - 04/12/06 06:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The Revolutionary War was hardly a conspiracy. We can argue semantics all day, but you still aren't an informed citizen just because you watched some silly movie.
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sparks8
general freak
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: Redstorm]
#5509409 - 04/12/06 06:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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my semantics are in line with websters. maybe you should read it.
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chaospilot
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im not certain weather or not the US Govt actualy carried out the 9-11 attacks, but it isnt such a radical idea. Think about it, plenty of times in history governments have done things and blamed it on other people to get what they want. Hitler did it, the Romans did it.
To automaticly dismiss this because it is a conspiracy i think is idiotic. All a conspiracy is anyways is two or more people planning to do something illegal. Our government isnt perfect, and the people who run it arent angels. I would not be surprised for one second if they had something to do with the 9-11 attacks......
Also, the CIA had plans to have a passanger plane shot down by the US airforce over Cuba and to blame it on the Cubans to go to war. Not to mention the Spanish American war. So its not like this isnt in our history allready.
If the government did do it, then it was probaly so they could go to war with Afgan and Iraq for control of the oil. I think that they are also just setting the stage for a totalitarian society, i dont think they will try to do it with the current administration yet though. I think they will try to get to the mid-east and control most of the worlds oil supply. That way we can control China once they rely on more oil, and our oil is secure for our own use.
Although, all it would take to make the US into Oceana would be another huge terrorist attack, maybe a nuke or small nuke in a large city. Or maybe some sort of disease that wipes out a quarter or more of our population, anything that will get the people to willingly sacrafice their Liberties in return for "Security". Isnt Cheny the CEO or was the CEO or something like that of the company that has the vaccine for the Bird Flue?
anyways, i think people should be open to the idea that the government played a part in the 9-11 attacks. Its not that big of a streach to think they did. Its not the same as thinking that our world is run by giant lizards.
and for anyone who wants to point out my spelling mistakes and try to use them against me to discredit me.... piss off
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509415 - 04/12/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sparks8 said: Perle is one of the founders of the Project for the New American Century, the PNAC. Other founders include Dick Cheney, now vice-president, Donald Rumsfeld, defence secretary, Paul Wolfowitz, deputy defence secretary, I Lewis Libby, Cheney's chief of staff, William J Bennett, Reagan's education secretary, and Zalmay Khalilzad, Bush's ambassador to Afghanistan.
Admittedly, a lot of the members and followers of the PNAC are Bush loyalists. That is not the point of contention. We are talking about your blatant error when you claimed Bush talked about a "new Pearl Harbor" in his speeches. He didn't and you were wrong. You then had the gall to yell at Redstorm for not doing any research. This was a pathetic debating tactic.
And, I will say again that I have read this PNAC report. The so-called "damning quote" is not that damning. It is merely a truism that was thrown into a report. Conspiracy theorists grab onto that one quote taken out of context like it is proof of a governmental 9/11 conspiracy. This is complete idiocy.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509418 - 04/12/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
Ok, what does our founding fathers have anything to do with George Bush piloting planes into the towers in NYC? Of course our country was founded by a subversive act. Any elementary school child knows that. You'll have to explain to me how that has any link to your crazy plot to rile up the people for war.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509423 - 04/12/06 06:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sparks8 said:
Quote:
RandalFlagg said: And you don't seem to be too aware of proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation.
It's the internet dude, get over it.
When I debate people on the internet I expect them to write intelligently. Writing intelligently entails using proper grammar.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: chaospilot]
#5509427 - 04/12/06 06:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Of course it is idiotic to immediately dismiss it. To dismiss it after reading sources on both sides of the aisle for years is not, though. I must say, it is equally as idiotic to embrace a conspiracy theor without looking at both sides of the issue.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: chaospilot]
#5509441 - 04/12/06 06:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
chaospilot said: im not certain weather or not the US Govt actualy carried out the 9-11 attacks, but it isnt such a radical idea. Think about it, plenty of times in history governments have done things and blamed it on other people to get what they want. Hitler did it, the Romans did it.
To automaticly dismiss this because it is a conspiracy i think is idiotic.
I never said that it wasn't possible that the U.S. government was involved or complicit in the attacks. It is quite possible that the U.S. government was involved. But, in order to believe that I need to see proof. I have yet to see anything even remotely resembling proof. All I have seen is half-baked innuendo from absolute loons.
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chaospilot
Ming I
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: Redstorm]
#5509444 - 04/12/06 07:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: Omust say, it is equally as idiotic to embrace a conspiracy theor without looking at both sides of the issue.
i agree with you on that.
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chaospilot
Ming I
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: But, in order to believe that I need to see proof. I have yet to see anything even remotely resembling proof. All I have seen is half-baked innuendo from absolute loons.
the thing is, especialy when a large group of people, like our government, does something illegal, it makes it hard for someone to get the smoking gun. They tend to hide everything, so all we have are little bits here and there that seem suspicous. Until they release things like the videos that taped the attacks on the pentagon, we can never know for sure.
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sparks8
general freak
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: Redstorm]
#5509463 - 04/12/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Ok, what does our founding fathers have anything to do with George Bush piloting planes into the towers in NYC? Of course our country was founded by a subversive act. Any elementary school child knows that. You'll have to explain to me how that has any link to your crazy plot to rile up the people for war.
obviously this conversation has gotten too long for you to follow. Or, you have no argument so you've resorted to nitpicking. It just goes along with the fact that this IS possible.
After failing to turn back the three ships in the harbor, local patriots led by Samuel Adams staged a spectacular drama. On the evening of December 16, 1773, three companies of fifty men each, masquerading as Mohawk Indians, passed through a tremendous crowd of spectators, went aboard the three ships, broke open the tea chests, and heaved them into the harbor.
does that fit YOUR definition of a conspiracy?
-------------------- buy the ticket, take the ride
Edited by sparks8 (04/12/06 07:08 PM)
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: chaospilot]
#5509489 - 04/12/06 07:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
chaospilot said: the thing is, especialy when a large group of people, like our government, does something illegal, it makes it hard for someone to get the smoking gun. They tend to hide everything, so all we have are little bits here and there that seem suspicous. Until they release things like the videos that taped the attacks on the pentagon, we can never know for sure.
Actually, with a large group of people the truth usually comes out very quickly because there are too many individuals to keep shit straight and somebody lets something slip.
Practically every idea put forth by the conspiracy theorists has been thoroughly discredited. The only one that even makes me wonder and holds my interest is how WTC 7 came down.
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chaospilot
Ming I
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what i meant was a large orginization. The word didnt come up when i was typing it, so i just said a large group of people. Only 4 people could of been involved in the attacks. Maybe not four, but you know what i mean, a small amount of people. And if these people are good at keeping secrets, then nothing would get out. If 4 or 5 people planned it, and then the pilots carried it out, who else besides the people who planned it would know? i dont think the president knew.
Edited by chaospilot (04/12/06 07:13 PM)
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novorua
Waterholic
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Let us say even if the 9/11 was not planned, etc.
Why Iraq? Are there sources showing that Al Queda was being sponsored by Sadam Hussien? Are there sources of WMD, like Bush stated? Then he stated about wanting to give freedom to Iraqis by spending BILLIONS of dollars on war just for their freedom!!!
So, do I believe that? I am sorry, I don't.
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sparks8
general freak
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Quote:
Practically every idea put forth by the conspiracy theorists has been thoroughly discredited. The only one that even makes me wonder and holds my interest is how WTC 7 came down.
why were peices of flight 93 found 6 miles away? where was all the aircraft-wrekage at the pentagon? or is discredation whatever the talking heads tell you on TV?
the list of unexplaned facts goes on and on if one cares to research it.
-------------------- buy the ticket, take the ride
Edited by sparks8 (04/12/06 07:19 PM)
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509531 - 04/12/06 07:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sparks8 said:
Quote:
Redstorm said:
Ok, what does our founding fathers have anything to do with George Bush piloting planes into the towers in NYC? Of course our country was founded by a subversive act. Any elementary school child knows that. You'll have to explain to me how that has any link to your crazy plot to rile up the people for war.
obviously this conversation has gotten too long for you to follow. Or, you have no argument so you've resorted to nitpicking. It just goes along with the fact that this IS possible.
After failing to turn back the three ships in the harbor, local patriots led by Samuel Adams staged a spectacular drama. On the evening of December 16, 1773, three companies of fifty men each, masquerading as Mohawk Indians, passed through a tremendous crowd of spectators, went aboard the three ships, broke open the tea chests, and heaved them into the harbor.
does that fit YOUR definition of a conspiracy?
What does this have anything to do with what the thread is actually about?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Posts: 15,608
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509532 - 04/12/06 07:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sparks8 said: why were peices of flight 93 found 6 miles away?
Source please. And please make that source a reliable one. www.Bushdidit.com or some shit like that is not reliable.
Quote:
sparks8 said: where was all the aircraft-wrekage at the pentagon?
The engine was found at the Pentagon.
Quote:
sparks8 said: or is discredation whatever the talking heads tell you on TV?
Are your opinions formed by wacky conspiracy theory sites on the internet that have absolute no credibility?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: novorua]
#5509539 - 04/12/06 07:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
novorua said: Why Iraq? Are there sources showing that Al Queda was being sponsored by Sadam Hussien? Are there sources of WMD, like Bush stated? Then he stated about wanting to give freedom to Iraqis by spending BILLIONS of dollars on war just for their freedom!!!
So, do I believe that? I am sorry, I don't.
I have a bunch of reasons as to why I think Iraq was invaded. I don't believe that is really relevant to this discussion however.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: Redstorm]
#5509541 - 04/12/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: What does this have anything to do with what the thread is actually about?
I'm going to say absolutely nothing.
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509551 - 04/12/06 07:27 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I fell for all that crap too man. What set me straight was a popular mechanics article that actually attempted to seriously and scientifically go over some of the claims. Article
You probably just watched one of those scary 911 conspiricy movies.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
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Quote:
adjust said: You probably just watched one of those scary 911 conspiricy movies.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Is that the kid that hot blonde teacher fucked? Lucky kid....
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever
Registered: 03/03/06
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There was one of these threads yesterday in which I posted why conspiracy theories actaully disempower those who believe in them, but all that aside
claiming that the revolutionary-federal period was a "conspiracy" is just plain false; its simply tacking a term one likes onto an historical process. the revolutionary/federal period is one of my areas of specialization for my phd. the revolutionary ferment was openly debated, discussed, disagreed with, publicized, preached about...ok i'll ask you one question, ever hear of the hutchinson letter affair? know what a committee of correspondence is? the republic of letters? consensual writing? /sigh
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/04
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Loc: Texas
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He didn't just fuck her, he also got blowjobs on multiple occasions at her house and in the back room at school. And this is a crime
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sparks8
general freak
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your debate consists of nothing but calling people crazy, redstorm and randall. and now your talking yourselves in circles.
-------------------- buy the ticket, take the ride
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
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Quote:
adjust said: He didn't just fuck her, he also got blowjobs on multiple occasions at her house and in the back room at school. And this is a crime
Damn! How did such a goofy looking kid get that?
If only I had been so lucky at that age.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509588 - 04/12/06 07:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sparks8 said: your debate consists of nothing but calling people crazy, redstorm and randall. and now your talking yourselves in circles.
Bwahahaha!
Let's recap shall we:
1. You made a false claim. You were called on it.
2. You attempted to make points and provided no evidence to back it up.
3. You accuse Redstorm and I of "talking in circles", yet you have provided absolutely nothing of substance in your debate.
Edited by RandalFlagg (04/12/06 07:48 PM)
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Freeker
jackaroe
Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,225
Loc: buffalo
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Quote:
Damn! How did such a goofy looking kid get that?
If only I was so lucky at my age.
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minesstudent
Who knows?
Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 400
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: DarkFluFFy]
#5509592 - 04/12/06 07:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Jet fuel could bring down the towers. The towers were designed using the outer walls for support and an inner collumn of support. The steel inside was fireproofed but the impact most likely blew it off. Jet fuel burns hot as hell (don't know exactly how hot). The plane were full of jet fuel. Heating steel to high temps makes it weak. When the planes crashed into the buildings it ripped huge holes in one side and out the other. This took away an awful lot of structual support. The weight that those supports support has to be shifted to the remaining supports. Now these remaining supports are in a raging inferno, holding more weight. The steel is weakened and other supports start giving out, shifting more weight to other supports. Eventually the rest reach their breaking point and the floor above crashes down on the one below. Like dominos it all falls down. Personally I'm suprised the towers stood at all after the planes hit in the first place, let alone as long as they did.
-------------------- "The universe is the way it is because if it wasn't we wouldn't be here to talk about it"
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger
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Loc: Texas
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509608 - 04/12/06 07:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Seriously go give that article a read. You owe it to yourself. Popular Mechanics Debunking 911 myths
Quote:
FROM THE MOMENT the first airplane crashed into the World Trade Center on the morning of September 11, 2001, the world has asked one simple and compelling question: How could it happen?
Three and a half years later, not everyone is convinced we know the truth. Go to Google.com, type in the search phrase "World Trade Center conspiracy" and you'll get links to an estimated 628,000 Web sites. More than 3000 books on 9/11 have been published; many of them reject the official consensus that hijackers associated with Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda flew passenger planes into U.S. landmarks.
Healthy skepticism, it seems, has curdled into paranoia. Wild conspiracy tales are peddled daily on the Internet, talk radio and in other media. Blurry photos, quotes taken out of context and sketchy eyewitness accounts have inspired a slew of elaborate theories: The Pentagon was struck by a missile; the World Trade Center was razed by demolition-style bombs; Flight 93 was shot down by a mysterious white jet. As outlandish as these claims may sound, they are increasingly accepted abroad and among extremists here in the United States.
To investigate 16 of the most prevalent claims made by conspiracy theorists, POPULAR MECHANICS assembled a team of nine researchers and reporters who, together with PM editors, consulted more than 70 professionals in fields that form the core content of this magazine, including aviation, engineering and the military.
In the end, we were able to debunk each of these assertions with hard evidence and a healthy dose of common sense. We learned that a few theories are based on something as innocent as a reporting error on that chaotic day. Others are the byproducts of cynical imaginations that aim to inject suspicion and animosity into public debate. Only by confronting such poisonous claims with irrefutable facts can we understand what really happened on a day that is forever seared into world history.--THE EDITORS
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sparks8
general freak
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i dont have the time or patience to type this shit out twice for you randall.
minestudent, do the research on jetfuel temps and steals ridgedity at high temps.
additionally the jet fuel burned off in an instant, after that it was nothing more than office supplys burning.
-------------------- buy the ticket, take the ride
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509620 - 04/12/06 07:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sparks8 said: i dont have the time or patience to type this shit out twice for you randall.
You didn't even type shit out once. First, you referenced a blatantly biased site that has no credibility. Then you made some assertions and I asked you to provide proof of them. You didn't.
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sparks8
general freak
Registered: 10/22/05
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adjust, i'll definitely give that article the once-over twice. thanks.
-------------------- buy the ticket, take the ride
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debianlinux
Myconerd - DBK
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Posts: 8,334
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509650 - 04/12/06 08:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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this thread has met the same demise as all threads of this ilk.
the PM article was about the most worthwhile thing brought out.
why do we waste our time so?
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minesstudent
Who knows?
Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 400
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: 9-11, conspiracy? [Re: sparks8]
#5509924 - 04/12/06 09:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sparks8 said: i dont have the time or patience to type this shit out twice for you randall.
minestudent, do the research on jetfuel temps and steals ridgedity at high temps.
additionally the jet fuel burned off in an instant, after that it was nothing more than office supplys burning.
Even if the jet fuel burnt off quickly (it could have I'm not sure, but I have see a pool of gasoline burn for a while.) The towers obviously burnt the whole time that they stood. Where there's smoke there's fire. They were office buildings, imagine how much paper, desks, chairs, ect. was in those floors. Even if they chairs and such were fire resistant it means just that. Fire resistant, that doesn't mean they can't burn. As for steel ridgedity at 1000 C it loses half its strength. I got that from some conspiricy site didn't get the site's name though. After a hour and fifteen minutes of flame I'm sure the steel got hot enough to lose some of its strength. I don't know how hot but hot enough.
-------------------- "The universe is the way it is because if it wasn't we wouldn't be here to talk about it"
Edited by minesstudent (04/12/06 09:19 PM)
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Geomancer
Seeker of Wisdom
Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 1,733
Loc: the shadows of your mind
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Hi kimbo!
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