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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5508076 - 04/12/06 12:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
you dont see anything subjective, or assuming in this? they presume that of these 14 stressful events, they are all equal in stress/reaction as well as inciting equal stress and reaction in every "unique" person.

Does a person with 0 events not have stress? or never had anything traumatic happen to them?




You are correct, but the criteria is the same for both groups. That is, the 14 "Stressors" which were defined; were the same for both groups.

As far as the subjects being "unique" and responding differently to stress (which is true). That is the reason they have 1037 participants. When taken as a whole there is little "uniqueness" in a group of that many people.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: badchad]
    #5508131 - 04/12/06 01:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

it is still subjective. While, it is about as objective as you can get, it still has assumptions disguised as controls, which are no doubt based upon previous "scientific studies" that were partially subjective as well.... that is what I meant by "chasing its own red herring".


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OfflineNickSoapdish
Hypochondriac
Male

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 690
Last seen: 13 years, 21 days
Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5508409 - 04/12/06 02:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
what makes you think that in a few years we will not look back and be abhorred at the thought of drugging people? Do you honestly think that with so many unknowns still even proclaimed by the APA and such, that they can still make intelligent decisions regarding the mental health of people?
I dont see where Psychiatry has made leaps and bounds improvement over the last 30 years since lobotomies and shock therapy were "all the rage". So, can you say that Psychiatry and the practices that it agrees with are now all humane, safe and as effective as possible?




It is my hope that most professionals in the field will look back on this era of pill pushing as a deleterious slander of a concept that has potential for good, much in the same way that we look back on the days of lobotomies and torture of the "insane" today. You don't consider the difference between psychiatry today and psychiatry 30 years ago a drastic improvement? Lobotomies are nonexistent, and although shock therapy and straight jackets are still used in extreme cases, theses methods are used far less frequently used today than they had been in the past. I definitely see the "leaps and bounds" to which you refer, and this outrage (which you seem to be a proponent of) amongst informed individuals as to the current practice of psychiatry is strong evidence of the beginnings of a revolution of sorts. Psychiatry is not as safe, humane, or effective as possible in most cases because of the people who dominate the field. The research and information is still important, and this ever growing knowledge is the only way to improve the shitty deal we have now.

Quote:

If even the advocates of Psychiatry and its practices agree that there is still so much left to understand, then why are we acting with such emphasis upon the supposed efficacy of drugs? especially when anyone in the world can tell you that "yeah, drugs work, they make you feel good, they mask things".... is that all this supreme science can offer us?




I think you know as well as I that the emphasis on drugs is due to the greed of drug companies and/or most psychiatrists in the field. It still doesn't convince me that there's anything wrong with studying the subject further. If anything, it's motivation to for me to help change it some day.



Quote:

yes, we can see that there are deficiencies in neurotransmitters and such, just as I can see that someone is bald, but without further inspection and knowledge of this phenomenon, it is only speculation as to the cause or root of this phenomenon- speculation is not science, and sure as hell not enough to start passing laws, and harmful drugs onto the market.
WHEN THERE IS NO DEFINITIVE EVIDENCE TO SHOW THE CAUSE OR CORRELATION BETWEEN A PHENOMENON AND A PROBLEM, IT IS UNETHICAL TO ACT ON PURE ASSUMPTION! NOR IS IT ETHICAL TO ALLOW THE ENDS TO JUSTIFY THE MEANS.
I can see that someone is bald, but I can only speculate as to how he lost his hair. genetics? possibly. Fire? possibly. did it himself? possibly. chemotherapy? possibly.
see what I mean? If we started seeing all these bald people without being 100% sure of the cause and began acting on our assumptions, we are placing people in harms way under the guise of being able to help them, while we refuse to look at all possibilities and hope our assumption is right.... then we set up shop at a wig store.....




There is definitive evidence to show the causal correlation between instances of schizophrenia and its root in genetics/biological factors. I listed the articles in a previous post. Similar evidence exists for other disorders and their causes.

We keep going in circles here, and I believe its because you misunderstand my intentions or opinions. I view this issue as having two extremes: on the one side, call it the left, psychiatry is demonized as being nothing but pill pushing maniacs who are so money hungry and evil that their clients could shit their intestines out from their medication for all they care, as long as they profit. On the other side, the right, psychiatrists are viewed as completely trustworthy professionals who help people "overcome" their problems by giving them the proper medicine they need. In this extreme, medicine is always the best answer.

It seems to me like you fall in the left extreme, while I am somewhere in the middle. You're arguing as if I were at the opposite end, but obviously that isn't true because we agree on many of the issues at hand. I used to have an extremist point of view as well, but I realized it's a far wiser decision to give this (and almost anything) a fair objective chance. Like most issues, when viewed objectively, you will see that there are both pros and cons associated with it. Admittedly, psychiatry is tilted towards the cons side right now, but it is through no fault of the study. We can agree on who is to blame.


--------------------


Edited by NickSoapdish (04/12/06 02:52 PM)


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OfflineNickSoapdish
Hypochondriac
Male

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 690
Last seen: 13 years, 21 days
Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: Noetical]
    #5508450 - 04/12/06 02:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Noetical - I'm not sure if your post was directed at psilocyberin or open for discussion, but I'll offer a brief response anyway. I'm also unsure if your first "riddle" was a rhetorical question, but as I've mentioned already, my opinion is, simply put, that a person who desires treatment deserves to receive it. If you wanna get your car fixed, you should be able to see a mechanic, you know? They also deserve an honest analysis, and the most efficient and beneficial form of therapy available to them. Therapy "by any means necessary" is usually worse than no therapy at all. A mechanic robbing you blind to replace a fuse, while he does solve the problem, usually creates many more.

As for riddle number two, a person who cannot care for him/herself yet does not desire any sort of treatment for their "disorder," should not be forced into treatment. Even a homeless guy mumbling to himself on the street should be allowed to do so if that is his desire, so long as he does not present an immediate threat to anyone else. The moment he does, some sort of isolation from society should be implemented. Even still, treatment should not be forced if he does not want it.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5508582 - 04/12/06 03:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

take away your genetics, your environment, and your psychological factors (emotions), and what are you left with?

Well gee... Take away genetics and you're just left with a pile of crap.
And, to clarify, the psychological factors address the ways experiences are handled.

A - Activating experience (environment)
B - Belief(s) [about the experience]
C - Consequential emotion(s)

The psychological factors would be "B". If a person has irrational, self-defeating beliefs, such as "I must be economically successful, or else I'm a worthless, awful person", then they will suffer persistent negative emotions.

There is no definitive proof that the three factors above, combined in some inexplicable complex union, are a result of anything except LIFE

Psychologically, the union is incredibly simple. Identical twin studies suggest that vulnerability to depression can be inherited. If a person has inherited this trait, is in a poor environment, and doesn't rationally interpret their negative experiences, then it seems reasonable to assume this person will become clinically depressed.
Neurologically, it isn't clear how stress atrophies nerve endings or how it effects the production of serotonin, but study after study has shown that it does.
Since psychology has yet to be reduced to neurology, its uncertain whether depression can be 'fixed' bottom-up rather than top-down, but most psychiatrists seem to think so.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5508648 - 04/12/06 03:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If a person has inherited this trait, is in a poor environment, and doesn't rationally interpret their negative experiences, then it seems reasonable to assume this person will become clinically depressed.





If that is true, and the true cause of clinical depression, then someone would need all these factors to be truly depressed right? A perceived shitty life, a neurotransmitter defeciency, and other external/internal psychological factors?
if not all three of these are combined, then the person is just sad? or can one of these factors cause clinical depression?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5508689 - 04/12/06 03:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nah.
"A perceived shitty life" can cause depression on its own and if someone had an excessive neurotransmitter defeciency, they'd practically be hardwired for sadness.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5508725 - 04/12/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

hmmm... lets think about this amazing scientific breakthrough in the fight against rampant depression.
So far..... our scientists have discovered that genetics, environment, and psychological factors, in any combination, that is perceived in any shitty way personally, can be the cause of depression.

well, now that we have covered anything which is possible to be perceived in a shitty way, we now know the cause of depression!: shitty stuff! and these pills we have, makes it not seem so shitty. Dont worry about attempting to change the shitty stuff though, these pills are a lot easier.


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