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journeyman Registered: 09/01/03 Posts: 2,537 Last seen: 12 years, 9 months |
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yeah some of them actually do help Alot.
but i agree with cyberin here, that some are created to solve problems which have no real 'drug' solution, and they are just a marketing and $ hype. and when u have both kinds its hard to tell whats real and whats the fake drug. to brandon: whats a brain ABnormality? our bodies are all different , our genetic code is all unique, why should our brain patterns be all the same? ![]() you also have to think , maybe we all [ there are exceptions but stay with me ] start with the same brain yet we create our own brain uptake and devlopment patterns Ourselves, through our own thoughts.
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... Registered: 10/12/05 Posts: 999 Loc: Tx Last seen: 8 years, 3 months |
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i think the state of this country is incredibly saddening, but also not surprising in the least.
look outside of drug companies to how the majority of us live our lives. the easiest and quickest way to solve a problem is deemed the best, and the societal norm. people dont care if they are being exploited, as long as there is a quick fix to their problem. prime example is food, namely fast food. its cheap and it cures the problem of hunger. any consideration outside of that is unnecessary to most people. but this attitude extends to almost every facet of what we do. i cant sleep...ill take a pill. im not happy...ill take a pill. (on a side note, i think happy and sad are just states of mind. being sad isnt necessarily a bad thing, just as being happy isnt necessarily a good thing. they are just emotions.) im overweight...ill take a pill. soon enough most people will take a pill at night and in the morning, conditioning them for the brain-dead monotone lifestyle they have come to know and to love. now of course there are exceptions, the people that really do need some sort of medication to balance what's going on in their head. but i think these people are few and far between. and thanks for posting that article. i'll give it a read through after i get some food in me. -------------------- "Outside of a dog a book is a man's friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read" -Groucho Marx
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Mad Scientist Registered: 03/02/05 Posts: 13,372 |
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Quote: Agreed. In addition, there is little alternative. There are too few psychiatrists available to treat everyone. Even if there were, cost is prohibitive. So it comes down to a choice (in many cases) of: 1. Do nothing and be depressed, OR 2. take a pill which has been clinically proven to help improve mood. -------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Hypochondriac Registered: 04/15/05 Posts: 690 Last seen: 13 years, 21 days |
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Quote: Like I said... Quote: Admittedly, brain abnormality is a poor choice of words. However, the human brain is designed to function a certain way, part of which is to balance and modulate mood and emotion. Someone with depression has a unique brain, just like everybody else, but also may have one that lacks at least one characteristic that is common to the majority of human brains. That is, every brain is different, but undeniably, there are some common characteristics of nearly all human brains, some of which an "abnormal" brain does not possess. Psilocyberin: After thinking about this topic a little more, I'm beginning to see your point more clearly. I concede that there is a lack of conclusive evidence regarding genetic predispositions to depression in particular. However, the thread topic is about psychiatry and pharmaceuticals in general as relating to many disorders, not just depression. As such, my original point was and still is that psychiatry is not complete bullshit. Schizophrenia is a good example of a psychological disorder that is best treated with medication, as it has been more conclusively proven than depression to be caused by genetics. I have some articles you can read if you wish... http://www.journals.uchicago.edu http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/ There are many more scholarly articles with references that you can find by doing a google search. I don't suppose you think someone's environment is solely responsible for shaping their brain to be that of a schizophrenic person's. It is by this same logic that I believe depression, as another psychological disorder, can potentially be caused by purely genetic factors. As to everyone who is expressing their discontent with psychiatry in our society, your point has been well established in this thread, and I agree with it. It's disgusting how reliant most of society is on a pill that they don't really need, and even more disturbing how our psychiatrists, who are supposed to be trusted medical professionals, push these pills for profit or other selfish motivations, further deceiving those who want to be deceived and destroying the credibility of this branch of science. I encourage people in this thread to do some research of your own about neuro-chemistry and neuro-psychology before you make up your mind about the subject in general. Like I've said before, it's unfortunate that this repeated betrayal of trust has, and continues to occur, but don't make the mistake of judging an entire field of medical research based on the greedy individuals who corrupt it on the surface. --------------------
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Once again, drugs have effects, that is a well known fact, they numb or intensify certain aspects of perception and reality. Of course certain drugs are going to "mask" the problem, but Psychiatry has yet to create anything which CURES. interesting huh?
I was reading some of Kurzweils work, and Im not sure if this is his concept of why the human brain/physiology is far more complex and is a result of far more data than DNA can allow. (stick with me, because this might get long) The best analogy I can give to this theory is those little diamonds that girls play with which have the colors and numbers. A number is picked, then factored to a point, then a random color is picked and factored into something else, repeated in such a way that the end product comes through a complex series of semi-random choices based from the prime choice. Sorry if it isnt a good analogy, I will have to quote Kurzweil when I get home to the book. Now, who is to say what the proper perception of reality is, and what is abnormal perception of reality? I will agree that schitzophrenics have a different type of brain, but I dont believe that we are our brain. IMO, our brains are merely switchboards of communication between perceived reality and the mind. Imagine a movie where everything is either red or green, and a "normal" person and a color blind person watch this movie, dont you think that that slight difference in perception of just colors would cause a completely different perception of the entire movie, its plot and what it was trying to convey? especially if the color blind person has no idea that they are color blind. Schitzophrenia is merely a different perception of reality, which is no more greater or worse than the "normal" perception of reality. Psychiatry's foundation is 100% subjective, in that it bases what a proper perception of reality is according to societal norms. So when it comes down to it, psychiatry is only trying to force a certain perception of reality onto people. So far, the best way they have found to do this, is with drugs- chemicals which alter our perception of reality. This doesnt ever cure a problem, but only numbs us to a point where we dont notice our regular perceptual reality while intensifying other aspects of our normal perception of reality. But... hopefully Merck- the most evil corporation known to man, is going down in flames due to their proven negligence of reporting scientific finds to the FDA in favor of making money.
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Hypochondriac Registered: 04/15/05 Posts: 690 Last seen: 13 years, 21 days |
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How can it cure something which even you state is not curable? Alternate perceptions of reality indeed, so all you can really do is treat symptoms. It is interesting, but not unusual or even suspicious. This ulterior motive you're seeking isn't inherent in psychiatry, but rather in the greedy practitioners who abuse it. Schizophrenia and other psychological disorders are different ways of perceiving reality, as you said, but they cause a great deal of suffering in some people, sometimes completely destroying their ability to function in society, and they wish to alleviate their symptoms.
I wouldn't be so arrogant as to claim that there is a "proper" or abnormal perception of reality. Rather, the point (and I'm doing my best to summarize here) is that some people have irregular brain structures, when compared to the majority of human brains, which have been proven to produce certain symptoms. For some of these people, medicine is the most effective, or only plausible treatment (scientifically supported). If these people, say schizophrenics, wish to alleviate their symptoms, and after (and only after) it has been proven that a certain medicine is the only route for treatment, I believe these people are entitled to that treatment. If a schizophrenic person wishes to treat their symptoms, which understandably cause them to suffer, how else should they go about it? Say you have pain in your chest due to the recovery after surgery, and your doctor prescribes you some pain killers to cope with it, since there is no way to "cure" this chest pain, and you obviously want it to go away. Isn't that just masking the symptoms? How about an AIDS patient, who takes medication to alleviate symptoms, but obviously cannot be cured? Sometimes masking symptoms is a worthy endeavor. For disorders for which there is no known cure, for example. Once again, I agree that masking symptoms is a mistake for many psychologically diagnosed disorders, especially for most cases of depression. Sometimes medication can be used in conjunction with other forms of therapy, sometimes it is the only plausible treatment. Regardless, the goal as I see it is to help people independently achieve the state of mind that they desire. Sometimes medication is a stepping stone to that goal, and a worthy one at that. --------------------
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Quote: Because it isnt a disease. it isnt something you can catch, or be born with. its like trying to cure love.... get my point now? Is there a problem with people being chronically depressed? probably. Are we going about dealing with that problem in the right way? IMO, no. Shouldnt we be pouring millions and billions of dollars and millions of hours on scientific research to find the cause, or root of depression instead of spending/working on creating newer harmful drugs? My whole point is that Psychiatry is way off base. The entire foundation and concepts of Psychiatry are chasing their own red herring that they created! There is no scientific evidence that chemical imbalance in the brain is the CAUSE for depression, but why are people diagnosed on this amazingly false assumption? you would think that with the billions of dollars and federally funded institutes they could atleast come up with some substantial shred of proof and not work on the basis of "the ends justify the means". Quote: Like above, how do you treat the symptoms of Love? Depression is 100% intrinsic, completely based on your reaction and perception of/to reality. Quote: Which leaves who remaining in the field of Psychiatry? Quote: Like I said before, it is a by-product of our society. They are perfectly functioning people, it is our society that is sick and abnormal. Quote: What alternatives do you have? we havent done any research into any other theories upon the human mind. We have been blinded by the Theory of Psychiatry. what? were you going to say Psychotherapy? or maybe Shock therapy? or maybe frontal lobotomies? or maybe straight jackets? what information is 1/10th as much advertised and lobbied as Psychiatric "treatments"? If Psychiatry worked, then the escalating mental problems of America would decrease right? one would think. Or maybe I could find someone who was Cured by the help of Psychiatry. If Psychiatry worked then why would the amount of medicare patients on anti-depressants and anti-psychotics increase, as well as the fact that the drugs get more expensive,eating up an escalating percentage (i think it is about 46% now) of Medicare budget? Quote: i believe you should be able to do whatever you wish with what you ingest into your body, but not when you are under false assumptions and trust of a lying, cheating, and fake science. Quote: You are confusing the subjective, with the objective, as well as assuming that physical anguish is equal to mental anguish, as well as stemming from physical extrinsic factors. If I break my arm, and it hurts like hell, you can actually take an x-ray and see my broken arm, and come to the conclusion that I am in serious pain, as well as see that the cause of my broken arm is not genetic or a disease, and you will then conclude that after proven methods of repairing the broken bone, there will be a period of pain, which will subside eventually, and until that time, we can give you pain pills for it. With "depression" it is like," well, you are probably going to be fucked in the head for life, so here is a pill to mask the problems for the rest of your life..... what was that? alternative methods? well psychotherapy, frontal lobotomies and straight jackets didnt work either, so I guess you are SOL..... what was that? no meditation is a joke, as well as chiropracty, kinesthesiology, and nutritional factors, forget about those and buy the pills, I will see you when you come in my office dribbling on yourself needing more. Have a nice day..... and arent you glad we caught that chronic depression when you came out to see me for a chest cold"? Quote: It isnt the only plausible treatment, just the most popular. Dont you think it is up to you to perceive reality how you wish? Why is happiness considered something everyone should have by default? couldnt everyone be happier? couldnt everyone use more energy? Today, i watched an anti-drug commercial, which was promptly followed by a wellbutrin commercial. We allow kids to drive to school fucked up on xanax, sped up on ritalin, or numbed by paxil, while I would get arrested smoking a joint in my own house. The entire system is backwards, ignorant, and dangerous to the mental and physical health of America. Psychiatry: treating the abstract, subjective minds of people with drugs that give severe physical side-effects.
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Hypochondriac Registered: 04/15/05 Posts: 690 Last seen: 13 years, 21 days |
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Quote: Regarding depression, I already conceded that I understand your point and largely agree with you. I thought we had moved on to psychological disorders in general, which is why I keep referencing schizophrenia, a disorder that you CAN be born with. Quote: But psychiatry does involve research on causes of depression and other disorders. Again, with depression, the causes aren't all definitive, but it is being researched. There are many studies attempting (and sometimes successfully) to answer the question of what causes each disorder. Is the research imbalanced, in favor of creating new drugs? Yes, and it's unfortunate. However, blame the individuals and not the practice itself. Psychiatry is defined as "the branch of medicine dealing with the diagnosis and treatment of mental disorders." http://www.wordreference.com/definition/psychiatry Drugs aren't an inherent component of psychiatry, they just gain favor because they make people money. They can have merit, however, in the ways I have already explained. Quote: Yes, psychiatry in our society is way off base. Again, blame the individuals and not the practice itself. Science, IMO, is essentially designed to ease man's curiosity about any given observation. Psychiatry attempts to answer the many existing questions regarding the nature and workings of the human brain, it isn't inherently evil or corrupt or greedy. Those are all human qualities, and psychiatry is an intangible concept, it can't have those characteristics. You keep speaking about depression, as if the current findings and treatments for it apply to psychiatry in general. We have come a long way in discovering definitive causes for a multitude of other psychological disorders. Depression is more vague, but it doesn't mean the questions will never be answered. Quote: Like above, that applies only to depression, and loosely at that. Schizophrenia can hardly be compared to love. It is due to the fact that these other existing mental disorders can and have been explained as being caused by inherent brain structure, that I believe inherent brain structure (minus environment) may cause depression, in some cases. However, I won't say that it does because I can't find any evidence supporting it. I just hold it as a possibility due to existing evidence regarding other, somewhat similar disorders. Quote: Quote: Not all practitioners are greedy, malicious, and inconsiderate (to say the least), but most are. I've actually met a couple professionals in the field of psychology/psychiatry who agree with my opinions on the majority of the professionals in their field. There are a few who desire to do what's best for their clients. Quote: Quote: Schizophrenia is a by-product of our society? Whether or not society is sick and/or abnormal (which I don't necessarily disagree with you upon), is strictly opinion. However, many people desire to function within this society (some people cannot survive without it), and I don't think that there's anything wrong with helping them to do so. Quote: Quote: Come on now, none of the things you've listed, with the exception of psychotherapy, are accepted amongst even the most corrupt psychiatrists of today. Theory, in terms of science, means the best explanation we have for a set of observations. Whether or not other potential theories have been explored, I don't know. However, psychiatry is the predominating theory because scientific evidence has proven it to be the most reliable and accurate to date, just like how other fields of medicine are advertised almost exclusively. I think you're confusing psychiatry as "the study of drugs and straight jackets." The definition I mentioned earlier is far more suitable, and speaks volumes about its inherent intentions. Personally, I think alternative methods of therapy should largely include simple conversation. Unfortunately, many people who want help cannot be reached this way. Even more unfortunate is that speaking with clients as a form of therapy is almost disregarded (another fault of the individual and not the practice). Quote: All of these problems are caused by the greed of individuals, not the practice. As we agreed, most (or none) of the mental disorders in question can be "cured" in the true sense of the word. They can only be treated. Schizophrenics have been treated successfully with medication, in that they feel and think more in the way that they wish to, and are better able to adapt to their environment. THAT is the goal. The reason you don't notice a decrease in the amount of mental disorders is because they are so frequently diagnosed incorrectly. This doesn't eliminate the validity of the existing authentic cases or the available treatments for them. Quote: Whoa. Just as you can research what a mushroom does to your brain chemistry and body, you can research what pharms do to/for you. The science/research isn't fake, it's supported by evidence. The deception comes from drug companies and corrupt "doctors." A person should do their own research before agreeing to be medicated. Quote: You can do x-rays, EEG's, CT scans or whatever to diagram a person's brain and diagnose it. It can and is easy enough to definitively conclude that a person has a deficiency or abundance of a certain type of neuron, just like you can definitively conclude that a person is in physical pain. In the same manner, one could conclude that a person is suffering a great deal from their resulting symptoms of abnormal brain structure, most likely from personal testimony. In the same manner, proven techniques for alleviating the symptoms of the problem can be implemented by attacking the disorder at its root, the neural structure. Whether or not the mental pain will subside isn't as conclusive, so it's not a completely fair comparison. However, as drugs are not the only possible treatment for mental disorders, there is a good chance that a person can "heal" while gradually phasing them out. Your perception of a typical visit to the psychiatrist seems like the worst case scenario to me. Not all psychiatrists are like that. Quote: Most definitely. A patient can refuse treatment, and a well-informed patient would do so when appropriate. Quote: Society sucks, what can I say? Psychiatry is not "the study of happiness and all cures for it." Pill pushers do not represent the true nature of the field, only its current trend. Hopefully it'll change someday soon. The hypocrisy of the war on drugs is obvious enough. Basically, I equate psychiatry to neuro-chemistry, only with added emphasis on the disorders associated with it. You keep citing it as what you see on TV and magazines. This is not what the study of psychiatry is (what I'm defending) but rather the practice of it in our society (what I'm opposed to). My only point is to try to demonstrate the difference between the two. --------------------
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Since the dual quoting is getting quite long, im going to just list in order responses/statements
1) I agree that Schitzo's are born with a different brain than your average person, but I want you to understand that we are drugging them so that they can function in our society. it is our society that doesnt agree with schitzophrenia, not the individual. We have an abnormal institute and urging people to adhere to it in the pursuit of "normalcy" and "happiness". 2) I have met ONE psychiatrist who actual puts efforts towards the problem of overdiagnosing and over drugging. Him, I like. 3) Schitzophrenia isnt some new age sickness, it has been around as long as man probably has. people functioned, and usually became great artists or mathematicians. From personal experience with 2 different schitzophrenics, once they were on their medication they both independantly claimed that "I feel like i am in a box now, and my creativity is in here with me". 4)Wiki: Although once common, with advances in psychiatric drugs, shock therapy is now reserved for only severe cases of depression and bipolar disorder that do not respond to other kinds of therapies, such as psychotherapy or drug-based treatment. Although once used for the treatment of schizophrenia, it is now generally regarded as being ineffective for that purpose. shock therapy straight jackets are still used. lobotomies are no longer used because it is considered inhumane. Of all the sciences, Psychiatry has had to eat more crow, and damaged more peoples lives physically and mentally in the pursuit of "helping". How many drugs have been pulled in the last 5 years because they were dangerous? up til 1992, the APA considered homosexuality to be a mental disorder. How many more times are we going to allow Psychiatry to screw up completely before we realize it is more harmful to humanity than helpful? 5) in most states it is considered negligence and is punishable by law, as well as possible for your children to be taken away from you if you do not put your child on ritalin (or such) after being diagnosed with it. I know this for a fact, because it almost happened to me in Florida. Grown adults, sure, they should educate themselves on it, but children, toddlers, pubescent teens, dont have that burden of research, yet are placed on harmful drugs all the time. 1 in 4 kids in the united states are on amphetamine salts.... yes, that is what ritalin and that ilk are, amphetamines... dont see that advertised much do you? "Ask your doctor about how you too can get a dose of amphetamines.". 6) you seriously believe we have machines that can assess an emotional state of someone? the equipment out there right now can tell brain activity. 7) basically, I just dont see how a science can be considered as such when it is purely subjective. How do act objectivly when dealing with mental health?
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Hypochondriac Registered: 04/15/05 Posts: 690 Last seen: 13 years, 21 days |
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1) I see the problems with inflicting standards of normalcy on schizophrenics, it's inaccurate and unfair to conclude that there is something wrong with them. I support the cultivation of information, and applying this knowledge only to people who understand the implications of it and still want some kind of correctional procedure induced, drugs being a last resort.
2) As I've said, those types of psychiatrists are incredibly rare, but their mere existence, even in small numbers, proves my point to a degree. Psychiatry is not inherently evil, it's left up to the influence of the individual. Can you imagine the potential accomplishments if in depth knowledge of neural mechanisms was applied positively (i.e., minimal drug therapies) on a large scale? 3) I know schizophrenia has been around for a long time, and that some schizophrenics have been able to function in the past. I'm sure many schizophrenics can still function in today's society, independent of any sort of treatment. Neither they nor anybody else should be subjected to it against their will. However, I think the study of psychiatry could offer some insight for them to better understand themselves (as it could for most of us, disorders or no) based on their own voluntary research. However, some people simply cannot function in society, and this can cause much further distress, anxiety, etc. At some point, logically this type of person will weigh the pros and cons of psychiatric treatment, and decide for or against it. Their choice. As for the people you mentioned who felt like "they were put in a box," this story saddens me. It sounds like the most worthwhile part of their lives was taken from them. Can you elaborate on what kind of treatment they received (I'm guessing drugs), for what reasons (i.e., by their own choice), and their current state, if you know any of this? 4) Psychiatry has a dark history, no doubt. Do you not see, however, that most of these barbaric practices were engaged in out of ignorance? Stupid people trying to right the wrongs of something they knew little to nothing about. With more knowledge, comes more humane treatment. Psychiatry still has so many issues to be resolved (and much to be discovered). Restraining someone with a straight jacket and/or shocking the hell out of them are not part of what I would consider psychiatric practice. I didn't think they did that anymore, but regardless it has almost nothing to do with studying the brain or helping anybody, and is more about getting the symptoms to disappear while disregarding the consequences. It's irresponsible at best, and it's just another example of how an inherently positive (or neutral even) practice can be tarnished in the wrong hands. A doctor can lob off your arm to make the rash go away and call it medicine, but I think you can tell the difference between that and authentic medical practice designed for healing. Psychiatry is just another quest for knowledge, knowledge cannot do harm. 5) Putting children on medication should be done even less often than putting adults on it. Children should almost never be medicated for their "psychological disorders" because they are more often misdiagnosed than anyone else, and their brains haven't had time to develop. I can see it being done in very extreme cases. I agree that society is fucked up. Laws demanding your children to be medicated are even more fucked up. None of this can be blamed on information, though. Rather, it's due to ignorance. It is because people in general are so uneducated on this subject as well as many others, and laws get passed that seem good to the layman, but are really fucked up in actuality. Don't blame the study of the human brain, blame those who know nothing about it passing these ass backwards laws. Blame those who do know about it turning a blind eye to the morally reprehensible actions of themselves and/or their peers. 6) All I ever intended to claim it was capable of was measuring brain activity. Some symptoms can be causally related to that activity, such that the brain patterns and structure cause the symptoms and not the other way around. 7) The study of the human brain is not subjective! Independent researchers universally agree and support a common location and function for many of the brain's structures. It is an objective observation to view a person's brain to be abundant with or deficient of a particular neurotransmitter, to have a structural composition deviant from the average brain. These characteristics are what make psychiatry a science. The choice of which treatment to implement is the subjective part. Clearly most psychiatrists' judgement cannot be trusted with this choice (which has destroyed the practice's credibility as of late), because it's so easy to exploit. And why? Ignorance. People do not know that they don't really need paxil, or at least the refuse to believe it and remain ignorant by choice. Liken it to the mechanic that knows that all you need is an oil change, yet tells you that you need a new transmission. You have the choice to trust him, get a second opinion, or just leave the car how it is. Only from an educated standpoint will you be able to tell if you're being ripped off. Like mechanics, honest psychiatrists are hard to find, because the field is so easy to exploit. If you're educated on the subject, the subjectivity of the mechanic won't matter because you'll know what's wrong with your car, if anything, and how to fix it. Just because mechanics rip people off left and right, just because honest mechanics are few and far between, just because you don't know that much about cars, you don't consider that field to be fake, do you? So... choose knowledge, learn the brain from a scientific standpoint. Help fix this fucked up trend rather than disregard an entire field of science as "fake" due to the said trend. -------------------- Edited by NickSoapdish (04/11/06 11:03 PM)
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Stranger ![]() Registered: 04/21/05 Posts: 4,587 |
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there is no definitive evidence that the CAUSE of depression is chemical imbalance.
The cause of depression is a currently unknown complex interaction between genetics, environment, and psychological factors which usually results in a shortage of neurotrophins, hyperactivity of the hippocampus, disturbance in the levels of seratonin, or a combination of these. Clinical depression is characterized by a neuro-endocrine imbalance and weak nerve endings in the limbic system. Studies have shown Prozac does not only help restore the imbalance of the brain's chemistry, but also promotes the growth of new nerve axons. But, non-chemical therapy still seems just as effective, if not more. Due to hazardous side effects, antidepressants should be used as a last resort and only in combination with psychotherapy. The problem is that too many "psychiatrists" are so quick to throw pills at the problem Most people seem to want the effortless quick fix they assume anti-depressants will give them, and not have to deal with the possibly stressful 'talk therapy', CBT, REBT, or other effective models of psychotherapy. The moral of the story: Psychiatrists are for those individuals who need a mental straight-jacket to prevent harm to themselves or others. If you feel unable to overcome depression, seek psychotherapy.
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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here are the two points that bothered me about your post.
Quote: what makes you think that in a few years we will not look back and be abhorred at the thought of drugging people? Do you honestly think that with so many unknowns still even proclaimed by the APA and such, that they can still make intelligent decisions regarding the mental health of people? I dont see where Psychiatry has made leaps and bounds improvement over the last 30 years since lobotomies and shock therapy were "all the rage". So, can you say that Psychiatry and the practices that it agrees with are now all humane, safe and as effective as possible? If even the advocates of Psychiatry and its practices agree that there is still so much left to understand, then why are we acting with such emphasis upon the supposed efficacy of drugs? especially when anyone in the world can tell you that "yeah, drugs work, they make you feel good, they mask things".... is that all this supreme science can offer us? Quote: yes, we can see that there are deficiencies in neurotransmitters and such, just as I can see that someone is bald, but without further inspection and knowledge of this phenomenon, it is only speculation as to the cause or root of this phenomenon- speculation is not science, and sure as hell not enough to start passing laws, and harmful drugs onto the market. WHEN THERE IS NO DEFINITIVE EVIDENCE TO SHOW THE CAUSE OR CORRELATION BETWEEN A PHENOMENON AND A PROBLEM, IT IS UNETHICAL TO ACT ON PURE ASSUMPTION! NOR IS IT ETHICAL TO ALLOW THE ENDS TO JUSTIFY THE MEANS. I can see that someone is bald, but I can only speculate as to how he lost his hair. genetics? possibly. Fire? possibly. did it himself? possibly. chemotherapy? possibly. see what I mean? If we started seeing all these bald people without being 100% sure of the cause and began acting on our assumptions, we are placing people in harms way under the guise of being able to help them, while we refuse to look at all possibilities and hope our assumption is right.... then we set up shop at a wig store.....
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Quote: so, take away your genetics, your environment, and your psychological factors (emotions), and what are you left with? There is no proof genetics play a role. It is only speculation that environment can play a role. It is only subjective assumption that psychological factors can play a role. There is no definitive proof that the three factors above, combined in some inexplicable complex union, are a result of anything except LIFE (not birth life, but day to day life). Cant a person hope that after all these years, and all these dollars, and all this research, that someone could come up with some definitive proof one way or the other? "we now know that there is a completely unknown set of combinations of factors which result in an unknown set of combinations of chemical imbalance in your brain, which was enough for us to start giving people drugs". Like I have said thousands of times before here. There is a ludicrous amount of assumption in regards to cause and effect here. They are only able to observe certain physical phenomenon in the stages of either a happy person, or a depressed person, they have not studied a transition, because the actual study of such a transition would ruin the experiment. So all they have is seeing a "healthy" brain, and a "depressed" brain, and claiming that the physical difference must be the cause of the mental difference, and refusing to acknowledge that it could be the other way around. because, if it was the other way around, then YOU the person would be fully responsible for your own happiness and would have no extrinsic factors to blame it on, thus you would no longer pursue a cure in the form of drugs, meaning that you would have no people handing over wads of cash for a product they dont need.
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Flip Horrorshow Registered: 11/28/04 Posts: 9,230 |
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Interesting evolution of this thread. There are alot of well laid out and presented arguments on both sides. It seems the very heart of this argument is an ethical enigma wrapped up in a philosophical puzzle.
Riddle the First: If an individual notices the obvious beginnings of mental deterioration (say the onset of schizophrenia) and it has begun to negatively affect said individuals stability what is wrong with the the person seeking treatment (likely involving medication) because of their desire to be a 'functional' 'normal' citizen? Is there something wrong with an individuals will to be sedated into society? Riddle the Second: An individuals perceptions of normalcy, reality, rationality, and morality vary drastically from societal norms. Due to this the individual cannot or will not meat his necessary needs within society. Current treatment methods would allow the individual to function and meet his needs in society. The individual chooses not to be treated. Where and with whom does the burden of responsibility lie to ensure the survival of this individual in society? How will this be accomplished?
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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1) If Schitzophrenics are so "crazy" that they are maladjusted to society, and all their choices lead them to despair or frustration, then why do we consider their choice to "be normal" to be a sane and rational one, while all others come from some distorted idea box?
2) a vague question. is this persons survival in danger? like a severly mentally retarded person living on their own? the term Social needs is very subjective.
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Flip Horrorshow Registered: 11/28/04 Posts: 9,230 |
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1) why do we consider their choice to "be normal" to be a sane and rational one, while all others come from some distorted idea box?
Non issue. Do we allow someone who wants to sedate themselves into "normalacy" the chance to do so. 2) Without traditional treatment the person is a homeless vagrant delusional of his surroundings.
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Mad Scientist Registered: 03/02/05 Posts: 13,372 |
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Quote: The fact remains, however that one can cite study after study showing all these factors contribute to schizophrenia. Look the concordance rate for schizophrenia in monozygotic twins. It's approximately 50%. Even twins separated at birth have a similar rate. There's another recent study showing genetic differences in the serotonin transporter effect a person's response to stress (and development of depression). That is, you can inherit the genetic allele and be predisposed to depression. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...9766&query_hl=5 All in all it comes down to fact of objective evidence. Controlled and peer review studies support the assertions of neurotransmitters, genetics and environment playing roles in psychotic disorders. Controlled, scientific studies. And the only response people muster is: I disagree. It's all in your head. -------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Ok, so how does one have a control group which is able to have a precise amount of "relation to stressful life events" and still remain entirely objective?
It is like the term "traumatic" when referring to mental trauma. How do you measure that? or is it "on" or "off", or are there layers to trauma? each person reacts differently, perceives differently, and thinks differently about any given event/phenomenon/experience. Ever thought that maybe people who have made themselves more depressed are the ones that bitch about and lay blame on external factors that stress them out? I am interested in this study, I would like to see more about it. Did everyone fill out a questionaire regarding "how stressed out they felt they were", or did they pull out the Stressometer?
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Mad Scientist Registered: 03/02/05 Posts: 13,372 |
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In a nutshell, this was a study containing 1037 children all of the same cohort.
The researches identified 14 "stressful life events". Every single person in the group experienced between 0 and 4 of these events (over the first 21 years of life). Thus, when looking at the group, they all experienced similar events, and served at their own controls. After data was collected they divided the participants into two groups based upon genotype. About half had the "short allele" for the serotonin transporter, half had the "long allele" (the allele effects serotonin uptake and function). What they found, was that the allele affected a persons response to these stressful events. For example, there was no difference amongst depression rates in people experiencing 0 stressful events. Conversely, those experiencing a high number of stressful event AND inheriting a particular allele had higher rates of depression. In sum: the combination of inheriting the genetic factor AND experiencing adverse life events resulted in higher rates of depression than either trait alone. -------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Quote: you dont see anything subjective, or assuming in this? they presume that of these 14 stressful events, they are all equal in stress/reaction as well as inciting equal stress and reaction in every "unique" person. Does a person with 0 events not have stress? or never had anything traumatic happen to them?
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