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some1whoisntme
Stranger

Registered: 09/21/05
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A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them...
#5498123 - 04/09/06 09:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Your government is killing thousands in Iraq.
Would you trust a muderer?
Then why do you take drugs your murderous governmental organization deems acceptable, while doing the ?right thing? and supporting the incarceration of innocent people who use herbs that grow naturally on our planet?
Your government is drugging you.
Everybody should take a look at this URL:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread180090/pg1
-------------------- "Ignore the distortion you're forced to percieve and believe that what supercedes is love, but who agrees?"
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blissedout


Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 22,320
Loc: Yonder
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: some1whoisntme]
#5498139 - 04/09/06 09:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I agree, but I still take an ocassional Xanax, or Valium. I know. It's lame, but I still do it. I totally agree with your post, though.
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some1whoisntme
Stranger

Registered: 09/21/05
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: blissedout]
#5498254 - 04/09/06 10:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I had a very very bad experience with serotonin reuptake inhibition.
I began taking lexapro after I was diagnosed with "anxiety attacks and depression" (I believe the proper diagnosis would be "adolescent male testosterone levels" and thought of it as a benign drug that made me feel normal and balanced.
Then I decided to stop taking it, because I felt like I'd gained the confidence and strength to handle my mind on my own.
I tapered town to a 2.5mg daily dosage ofer 8 weeks, (from 20mg) then stopped completely.
Wow. 3 months of withdrawal HELL. I couldn't sleep, experienced a feeling like electrical shocks originating in my head and spreading through my body about every 30 seconds when it was at its worst. never felt happy, and for some reason felt an almost uncontrollable desire to drink alcohol, which faded away toward the tail end of the withdrawal period (a phenomenon also noted by a friend of my mother's who quit taking SSRIs)
It kind of opened my eyes to the real nature of LEGAL psychotropic drugs. "Chemical imbalance"? Pharmaceutical company marketing bullshit.
-------------------- "Ignore the distortion you're forced to percieve and believe that what supercedes is love, but who agrees?"
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downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: some1whoisntme]
#5498459 - 04/09/06 11:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yea, it is pretty much true but those drugs do help a lot of people, you can't say they don't...
But I do know the drug companies are reaping massive benefits from a highly medicated nation and probably others nations. That is why I am going into that business, money, power, arggggggg.
I honestly think a company that makes synthetic sugar could ban real sugar through a few years, decades of lobbying. Fucked up? Yes, it totaly is, the world is fucked up.
Nothing personal but I am just trying to get by.
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
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some1whoisntme
Stranger

Registered: 09/21/05
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: downforpot]
#5498505 - 04/09/06 11:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Oh I completely agree they help some people, the problem is putting EVERYBODY on these POWERFUL drugs without much thought, along with direct to consumer advertising. They have HOPPERS full of SSRIs at many pharmacies. The direct to market advertising is not just ads in magazines and on TV either. I personally work for a company that does some such advertising, though I am legally obligated not to talk about it, I think... I'll have to look at the contract I signed again.
When I got prescribed lexapro, I think my doctor knew what he was going to do before he saw me. it didn't take him 10 minutes to have me a script for ativan and lexapro. amazing...
-------------------- "Ignore the distortion you're forced to percieve and believe that what supercedes is love, but who agrees?"
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WIZOLZ
Poor with Needs


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 290
Loc: Monte Carlo
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: some1whoisntme]
#5498717 - 04/10/06 01:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wow...Thanks for the perspective smack! This is all very complex and disturbing. Although, its the age old hypocrisy of humanity. Power and control over truth and good will. It becomes a never ending, violent cycle.
It wasnt too long ago I was discussing with my mother about starting medicated treatment for my depression (which has increased dramatically since last year.) I never actually went for it though and I still get depressed, but I find there are o-natural alternatives to re-establishing that positive mainframe...One of them, being reading and learning...
-------------------- ---------o----o----o-------o------------------------o--o-o- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Requim for a Dream - Paul Oakenfold --------------------------------------------------------------- "The mis/abuse of any form of power, is the worst form of ignorance" ------------------------------------------------------------- WIZOLZ - Lover with a Killer's Smile
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Noetical
Flip Horrorshow

Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 9,230
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: some1whoisntme]
#5498780 - 04/10/06 02:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Pharms saved my life by stabilizing it.
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: Noetical]
#5498999 - 04/10/06 06:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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most drugs treat symptoms, not problems. otherwise there would be no money in medicine, if they actually cured their customers.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Andy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
Last seen: 13 years, 3 days
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: kotik]
#5499057 - 04/10/06 07:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There is no denying that they work for some people. The doctors however are too eager to hand them out, in that most post grad medical training is paid for by drug companies. Sometimes depression is as a result of an underlying problem such as a dietary deficiency a lack of excercise, a thyroid disorder or any number of other reasons which do not go away because you are shielded from it. One of my close friends has been suffering from depression for years and got no relief from the multitude of medications she was fed, and then got horrible weird withdrawals when she tried to quit them, a number of which her doctor said 'were all in her head' well duh. She uses a 'lightbox' every morning for like 45 minutes which mimics sunlight and allows her to feel normal. I think like anything medication should be viewed as a tool and a crutch but not a cure, because it really is not a cure. I know plenty of people who are medicated and they are not cured, they get by. There should be less research into new drugs and more research into the causes in my opinion.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
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Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: Andy21]
#5500419 - 04/10/06 04:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Of course they work, they are powerful drugs, and drugs make you forget your problems.
The cause and effect is completely backwards, and illogical. The ends here, are justifying the means, and the slogan "but they help so many people" is the only leg the pro-psych people have to stand on.
1 in 5 americans "have" depression.... compared to the rest of the world, that is grossly high. How is it genetic? how is it not an intrinsic creation of the mind if Americans have it abundantly more than any other country?
It is a by-product of our society, our concepts of health, our unyeilding trust in the theory of psychiatry. We have created an excuse for people to ignore and not confront the problems in their lives by placing blame on external non-existent forces.
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Andy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5500458 - 04/10/06 04:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Very well put.
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: Andy21]
#5500488 - 04/10/06 04:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Here's my abridged story.
Became quiet. Parents: You must be depressed. Me: No I'm really doing fine. (completely true I was doing GREAT) ---------------> counselor Me: I am sleepy. Counselor: Hmm.... a lot? Me: Sure. (who isn't? Perhaps this is chemically induced though but I always wake up tired, generally) Counselor: Well perhaps we can try some zoloft. Me: Okay. Age of being drugged: 13-15 I can't remember exactly.
That's right, 13-15 years old, not depressed, marginal issues with being sleepy....... one session with cousnelor. Zoloft.
The ones who don't know what the fuck they are doing seem to be in the many when it comes to handing out prescriptions.
Yeah, I'd really like to grow some medical marijuana so that you know, if I'm having nausea, I can have some. So if I'm exceptionally stressed.... I can have some. So if I'm feeling down... I can have some. So I can lift my spirits and be introspective.
Nope, gotta take that xanax, valium.... opiates and benzos if you need to CHILL OUT..... need to sleep? Take something that zonks you out the whole night and leaves you waking up dead in the morning......
no cannabis for you! Oh and sad? Take an SSRI for the rest of your life and hope it works.... no cannabis for you.
Ugh.
I can't wait til our medical program goes through, according to the guy spearheading it, it will. Then.... I'll be growing some phat crops and smoking in front of cops. Abuse of the system? Well... the system is abusing US! Plus I have a legit medical disorder that would qualify me to grow some.
I probably wouldn't even use it that much, just make brownies and stuff.
oh yes and ......... SSRI withdrawal = HELL ... oh man. Bad stuff. Cannabis withdrawal? Well paranoia I suppose, but that's because there are cops after you. Not that cannabis is suited for treating depression.... I suppose it could be but I wouldn't advise it.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (04/10/06 05:03 PM)
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NickSoapdish
Hypochondriac


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 690
Last seen: 13 years, 21 days
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5501211 - 04/10/06 08:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said: 1 in 5 Americans "have" depression.... compared to the rest of the world, that is grossly high. How is it genetic? how is it not an intrinsic creation of the mind if Americans have it abundantly more than any other country?
Just because depression is grossly over-diagnosed in this country, doesn't mean that no genetic basis for it exists. Everyone's brain is different, some people have imbalances, deficiencies, neural dysfunction etc. In the same way that an imbalanced brain can cause someone to be schizophrenic, it can cause a person to be depressed.
Of course, many other causes for depression exist. The problem is that too many "psychiatrists" are so quick to throw pills at the problem, mostly for financial gain, that many people do not get the appropriate and most effective treatment for their disorders, usually caused by non-chemical factors. Worst of all, it destroys the credibility of the genetic bases for mental disorders that actually do exist, overshadowing the rare instances of chemical imbalance, which are becoming widely viewed as invalid.
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psilocyberin said: It is a by-product of our society, our concepts of health, our unyeilding trust in the theory of psychiatry. We have created an excuse for people to ignore and not confront the problems in their lives by placing blame on external non-existent forces.
This is so true, to an extent. Just because this drug obsessed attitude that you described is so prevalent, don't make the mistake of assuming that psychiatry is 100% bullshit. It's a valid medical practice like any other, it just happens to be easy to exploit, and therefore widely corrupted.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: some1whoisntme]
#5501322 - 04/10/06 08:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Then why do you take drugs your murderous governmental organization deems acceptable
I don't recall the FDA murdering anyone.
Your government is drugging you.
Should we abolish Medicaid?
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: NickSoapdish]
#5501350 - 04/10/06 08:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brandon said:
Just because depression is grossly over-diagnosed in this country, doesn't mean that no genetic basis for it exists. Everyone's brain is different, some people have imbalances, deficiencies, neural dysfunction etc. In the same way that an imbalanced brain can cause someone to be schizophrenic, it can cause a person to be depressed.
there is no definitive evidence that the CAUSE of depression is chemical imbalance. Also, normalcy is relative, the guy from SHINE had an abnormal brain, so did Einstein.
Quote:
Of course, many other causes for depression exist. The problem is that too many "psychiatrists" are so quick to throw pills at the problem, mostly for financial gain, that many people do not get the appropriate and most effective treatment for their disorders, usually caused by non-chemical factors. Worst of all, it destroys the credibility of the genetic bases for mental disorders that actually do exist, overshadowing the rare instances of chemical imbalance, which are becoming widely viewed as invalid.
there is no definitive scientific proof that depression is genetic. Like I have said many times before, do you really think that 1 out of every 5 people in America is born with the predisposition to enjoying life less than me? The only cause of depression is yourself.
Quote:
This is so true, to an extent. Just because this drug obsessed attitude that you described is so prevalent, don't make the mistake of assuming that psychiatry is 100% bullshit. It's a valid medical practice like any other, it just happens to be easy to exploit, and therefore widely corrupted.
Psychiatry is a "science" based on relative terms like sanity and normalcy. It isnt objective, therefor, it isnt a science IMO.
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NickSoapdish
Hypochondriac


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 690
Last seen: 13 years, 21 days
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5501425 - 04/10/06 09:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said: there is no definitive evidence that the CAUSE of depression is chemical imbalance. Also, normalcy is relative, the guy from SHINE had an abnormal brain, so did Einstein.
Well, I'm certainly no neuro-scientist, but there is definitive evidence for chemicals within the brain, neurotransmitters (such as serotonin), controlling a person's mood. It can therefore be ascertained that an imbalance of certain chemicals, usually a deficit, can cause a variety of disorders, including depression. Certainly I don't believe EVERYTHING I read, but there is support for these "theories" in several peer reviewed medical texts, which comes as close to definitive evidence as a person can provide.
Also, since when does depression hinder genius? Einstein had an abnormal brain, and he also may have been depressed. So?
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psilocyberin said: there is no definitive scientific proof that depression is genetic. Like I have said many times before, do you really think that 1 out of every 5 people in America is born with the predisposition to enjoying life less than me? The only cause of depression is yourself.
No, obviously I don't think 1 out of 5 people in America are born with the predisposition, it's probably more like 1 in 100, or maybe less. Does that mean that it doesn't exist? Like I've said, genetic bases are over diagnosed in this country, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
Do you have definitive evidence that you are the ONLY cause of your own depression?
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psilocyberin said: Psychiatry is a "science" based on relative terms like sanity and normalcy. It isn't objective, therefor, it isn't a science IMO.
Most psychiatrists, at least good ones, don't use terms like sanity and normalcy. They base their conclusions on peer reviewed, scientifically controlled experiments and case studies. It's only misconstrued as subjective because of the many practicing psychiatrists who betray our trust and push pills for profit. This has produced the false image of psychiatry as the crock of shit that you believe it to be. It is, in fact, an objective science like many others, with about as much scientific proof as possible to support it.
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: NickSoapdish]
#5501458 - 04/10/06 09:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Psych(i/o)logy is indeed a science in the sense that it follows all scientific procedures in all research methods.
What makes people dislike it is that the things it investigates are rather asbtract. We can measure depression, and indeed accurately... but what is depression? Is it what we say it is?
We can ascertain the effectiveness of pills (and this is the pharmaceutical industry really) but can we say that just because pills work, that they should be given?
We can tell you that TV increases agression, but isn't that something you should already know? We quantify, empirically, abstract things.
There is no LAW for television, and not necessarily for human behavior, so it goes into abstract classifications and categories.
I mean..... like let's take Erickson's theories of psychosocial development.... yes they are just that, theories..... you can't entirely devise a study to see if infants really go through a trust vs mistrust phase.
But you CAN verify, empirically, that an infant who is regularly attended to when it needs attention becomes more stable and less fussy over time than an infant who is strictly ignored by authoritarian schedule oriented parents.
it's about putting pieces together the best we can based upon what CAN be tested in order to hypothesise and theorize what cannot.
Those of you who hate psychiatry for the pill popping and money making... your enemy is the American way of treating people.... the anti-homoepathy/spirituality and pro quick fix and quick bucks way.
Many psychs will probably just want to make that quick buck.... many doctors will probably want to make that quick buck. But we have great KNOWLEDGE.... it's just how we're trained to use it. We're taught to hand out pills at first, then use therapy...... because it's shown to work.
and it does work. But what does work mean? If you're masking up a problem with pills and you feel better, on average... quantifiably better... that does not mean that you are "cured" and in fact..... therapy is a better option.
In fact I think much discretion should be used. The teenager depressed over a girl doesn't need prozac, he needs someone to help him through his feelings and views on relationships, and someone to help build his self esteem so he doesn't feel like he is worthless if the girl thinks he is worthless.... and just that little bit of therapy would be better than any pills ever would be.
But from the money driven and formulaic perspective, put him on pills so he feels better right away, then talk to him if he wants to. It may "work" but only from the context of a flawed system.... IMO pills are not usually the rigth way to go.
Careful analysis into the multiple causes of any "disorder" need to be looked at. It is never JUST one thing. It is never just chemical, environmental, or social, or whatever. (well maybe it can be environmental, if you are beaten all the time for example)
And let's say you have social problems and are conditioned to hate yourself, that WILL produce chemical imbalances in your brain, but you don't treat the imbalances when the problem originates from social conditioning to feel like you are worthless.....
on the other hand maybe you have a great life and the biggest issues are cognitive and chemical, in that case anti-depressants may be the best option.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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NickSoapdish
Hypochondriac


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 690
Last seen: 13 years, 21 days
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: leery11]
#5501508 - 04/10/06 09:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
leery11 said: on the other hand maybe you have a great life and the biggest issues are cognitive and chemical, in that case anti-depressants may be the best option.
This is essentially what I'm trying to say.
I should also mention that I don't believe chemicals are a cure, but a treatment (among many other possible treatments), and ideally, a temporary one.
What is right for some, may not be right for others. I believe non-medicinal therapy should always be a first resort, but at the same time I recognize that occasionally, medicine is the best therapy, such as in the cases of those who have genetic brain dysfunctions.
My point is not to debate what is or is not depression, but rather what is/has been proven to be the most helpful solution for a person who is suffering. What will be the easiest and most effective treatment to implement, while carrying minimal side effects and/or risks of dependancy.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: NickSoapdish]
#5502026 - 04/11/06 12:02 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brandon said:
Quote:
psilocyberin said: there is no definitive evidence that the CAUSE of depression is chemical imbalance. Also, normalcy is relative, the guy from SHINE had an abnormal brain, so did Einstein.
Well, I'm certainly no neuro-scientist, but there is definitive evidence for chemicals within the brain, neurotransmitters (such as serotonin), controlling a person's mood. It can therefore be ascertained that an imbalance of certain chemicals, usually a deficit, can cause a variety of disorders, including depression. Certainly I don't believe EVERYTHING I read, but there is support for these "theories" in several peer reviewed medical texts, which comes as close to definitive evidence as a person can provide.
Just because there are neurotransmitters, doesnt mean that depression is caused by something beyond your control. Is it perhaps possible that after a long period of being in a funk trains your brain to act a certain way? that your actual mental problems, caused by your bad decisions in life, can cause your brain to act or seem "imbalanced"?
Quote:
Do you have definitive evidence that you are the ONLY cause of your own depression?
the burden of proof isnt upon me, it is upon those that claim to have objective, scientific data and research before they allow harmful drugs onto the market based on subjective studies.
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NickSoapdish
Hypochondriac


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 690
Last seen: 13 years, 21 days
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Re: A thought about pharmaceuticals and the people who endorse them... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5502255 - 04/11/06 01:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Just because there are neurotransmitters, doesnt mean that depression is caused by something beyond your control. Is it perhaps possible that after a long period of being in a funk trains your brain to act a certain way? that your actual mental problems, caused by your bad decisions in life, can cause your brain to act or seem "imbalanced"?
Of course that's possible, and probably happens quite often. Isn't it also possible that children can develop depression at a very young age? They're brains haven't really had the time to develop from whatever decisions they've made, yet children with biologically based depression do exist.
It's difficult to find detailed and reliable evidence on this subject on the internet, so all I really have is my book. I can show you scans of a couple pages that illustrate a study supporting my point, if you're willing to read it over. It is crappy quality and a bit of a strain on the eyes, though.

Click on these, read from the bottom section of the 1st page, "Evidence for Brain Abnormalities"
Again sorry for the shit quality, I'm not really sure how to make it any larger.
Basically it's describing the physiological components of depression, and briefly describes a study involving young patients diagnosed with depression who have a "developmental abnormality or degenerative process ocurring early in life."
The study I'm referencing is listed as:
Elkis, H., Friedman, L., Buckley, P. F., Lee, H. S., Lys, C., Kaufman, B., and Meltzer, H. Y. Increased prefrontal sulcal prominence in relatively young patients with unipolar major depression. Psychiatry Research: Neuroimaging, 1996, 67, 123-134. Whether or not you want to look any further into that, I'll leave up to you. I'll try to find something a little more concrete tomorrow
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