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Invisiblefigment
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why sterilze LCs?
    #5492754 - 04/08/06 12:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I just had thought the other day.
Why do you need to sterilize LCs when the Karo bottle has no growth in it? I have never seen mold grow in Karo, or the in grocery store, so why would one think that it would harbor and produce foreign matter? I know it harbors myc., but what the hell. Anyone ever thought of this before? I have had an uninoculated jar with Karo in it WITHOUT being sterilized for about a week and I see NOTHING. Almost seems like a waste if time to me. Any suggestions?


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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: figment]
    #5492776 - 04/08/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

because once you inoculate you could be sucking up some bactiria or something you can't see and it will contem the substrate?


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Invisiblemusher_420
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: figment]
    #5492874 - 04/08/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It is quite possible that when the Karo jars are filled from the factory they MIGHT be 100% sterile, UNOPENED. And it MIGHT also be possible that if you bought bottled water it MIGHT be 100% sterile, UNOPENED.

In theory, you could use a sterile syringe to suck about 10cc of Karo out of the bottle (you'd have to pull the plunger back extremely slow, microwaving it a bit might reduce the viscosity a bit.) You could then inject this into a small 8oz bottle of water (the syringe needle though the lid) mix it up then inject spores.

Of course you have practically zero gas exchange with this method. But I don't think there is much gas exchange with the baby bottle tek either and it seems to work for people.


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Invisiblefigment
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: musher_420]
    #5493258 - 04/08/06 02:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, but once you open the bottle and wait for even a year you see now growth of ANYTHING. So whats the deal? It almost seems like that sterilization is a waste of time concerning LCs. Maybe sterilization has become such a part of our counterculture that we sterilize EVERYTHING. Huh....whatever, I guess.


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OfflineDelusionz
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: figment]
    #5493476 - 04/08/06 03:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

well, along this topic, i just recently made a new LC as sort of an experiment. I just poured a little Karo into an old baby food jar, and then poured in some boiling water. I figured the boiling water would kill any contams that got in the jar. So far myceliums doing fine with no signs of contam =] but i might just have a clean-ass house, who knows.


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Offlineshroomsynergy
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: Delusionz]
    #5493504 - 04/08/06 03:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i'd rather waste an hour sterilizing than waste a week before i figure out that my LC is in fact contaminated. wouldn't you agree that this small step is WELL WORTH IT?


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: figment]
    #5493518 - 04/08/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

When Karo or honey is bottled, every mold spore and its mother lands on the work surface. Tons of spores are lying dormant, waiting to activated in your new LC. When you make the LC in your kitchen, even more spores join the party. By the time your LC is prepared, it's overflowing with bad stuff. Just PC it and be done. I've spent a long time attempting half-assed methods of no-pc LC's, with little success. You may get away with boiling for 30 mins, but that's about as close to no sterilization that can be had.

As always with this hobby, just do the job right the first time and sterilize your LC's.


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To find a place to live between the negatives and positives.


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: figment]
    #5493648 - 04/08/06 04:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Holydiver is right, but he didn't answer the question entirely. The reason that mold and bacteria don't attack honey or karo is because they are both far too low in water to sustain either. Once you add water, everything changes. The mold spores that are there will germinate and the bacteria will begin to multiple and thrive. That is why you need to sterilize LCs which have a little sugar and a lot of water.


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Invisibleagar
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: figment]
    #5493655 - 04/08/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

>>>>>why sterilze LCs?<<<<<

For the same reason you wipe your ass. :rolleyes:


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: agar]
    #5493704 - 04/08/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

agar said:
>>>>>why sterilze LCs?<<<<<

For the same reason you wipe your ass. :rolleyes:




Because it feels good :wink:LMAO

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
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OfflineDaCultivater
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: HippieChick]
    #5493730 - 04/08/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

and also

holy and agar i'm sure are right

however the karo is sterile and full of preserves and what not so potentially it could work, i think.


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as they said in some movie(i don't remember which one);

a belief is a dangerous thing, people will kill over it; instead of believing you need to find your facts and then have an opinionated idea that you are willing to change in light of new evidence


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InvisibleRoadkillM
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: agar]
    #5493741 - 04/08/06 04:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

agar said:

>>>>>why sterilze LCs?<<<<<

For the same reason you wipe your ass. :rolleyes:




lolzz

f#cker...you made me spit coke all over my monitor and keyboard!~

I'll get you my little pretty...and your little dog too!~

:grin:

~


--------------------
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You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



Edited by Roadkill (04/08/06 04:56 PM)


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Invisiblecappa
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: Roadkill]
    #5493871 - 04/08/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The thick syrup has alot of surface tension. This surface tension 'suffocates' or 'traps' contams. Just like honey in the wild, it has bacteria and spores in it, but they are unable to germinate or grow because the environment isn't right. Their aren't any anti-biotic, anti-micobial chemicals or compounds in honey and karo.

They simply aren't needed until the solution is diluted and the surface tension of the solution is lowered, bringing much needed oxygen and giving the microbe room to 'breath' and 'streth out'.


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Their are 10 types of people. Those that understand binary, and those who don't.
~Cappa.


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Offlinemaxpower210
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: cappa]
    #5493919 - 04/08/06 05:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i've never pc'ed LC before. ive never had an LC contaminated before. am i lucky? dunno. also my LCs have been mistreated. not very sterile with em. i do not cover the hole in the top. i assumed they were cool. maybe i will start to PCing them.
can you drop some verm/brf cake in karo/water and create a usable LC?
recently tried this, worked but with less then steller results.


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OfflineMycoCat
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: maxpower210]
    #5494439 - 04/08/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

My live culture method has always been 1 tablespoon of honey in a small (jello cup sized) tupperware of water. I microwave the water on high until it boils (a few minutes) then put it in the freezer. It usually takes about ten minutes to cool. Then I inject the spores. I've never had contamination and it takes fifteen minutes max to do. I figure it's worth it.


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No question is so difficult to answer as that to which the answer is obvious.

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InvisibleDexter_Morgan
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: cappa]
    #5495118 - 04/08/06 11:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cappa said:
Their aren't any anti-biotic, anti-micobial chemicals or compounds in honey...





I think there is!

EDIT: this addition; Having said that, I definitely think you do need a PC for LC's! That quoted statement, is incorrect though.


Edited by ShroomDr (04/09/06 01:45 AM)


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InvisibleDexter_Morgan
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: cappa]
    #5499157 - 04/10/06 08:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)



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Uncleluke, getting his assbeat, then he tries to delete it
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469
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Offlineblackout
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: Dexter_Morgan]
    #5499174 - 04/10/06 08:57 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Too high a sugar content will not allow anything to grow in it. Thats why you cannot brew beer or wine to very high %, if you add yeast to a high sugar % solution it just dies. This is one reason many peoples LC fail, they put too much sugar in thinking it is going to be faster or thicker, and the spores never grow in it.
Thats why sugared fruit is called preserve, the sugars perserve it by stopping growth.

It you buy liquid malt extract it comes in a jar and is probably sterile, once you open the jar it is exposed to new contams, when you put it in the new jar with water it is open to contams.

If you got a carton of apple juice it is probably sterile, if you sucked juice out with a sterile syringe and injected a sealed bottle of mineral water it will probably work for an LC.

Hippie did something similar, injecting ready sealed drinks with a low sugar %.


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: blackout]
    #5499291 - 04/10/06 09:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I had a similar idea but to use Manuka honey (this is a special type of honey with standardized antimicrobial properties, used to dress wounds and such)... the idea was to NOT sterilize, and let the honey slowly generate its H2O2 and other compounds to ward of contams. Probably couldn't germinate spores in this type of culture, but it seemed like a good way to set up a long term "master culture" - start it with myc from another liquid culture, refrigerate and use drops from time to time to start new working LC's.

I finally found a gaping hole in my logic, and its what cappa mentioned above. We can only observe "vegetative" contams, that is, ones that are growing. Mold spores and bacterial endospores are invisible to the eye, and won't give any other tell tale signs of contamination like smells. When you have an LC that hasn't been sterilized, its quite possible that its harboring tons of these contaminating spores. They might not be able to germinate in that environment while the myc thrives. That doesn't mean they "die" though, they could just be laying dormant until they do end up in an environment where they can germinate. So what you have is a nice clean looking LC, just loaded with these invisible invaders waiting to take their revenge... shoot up your cake or grains, and guess what? They're now in an environment where they CAN germinate, and germinate they almost certainly will.

I still want to do the manuka honey experiments, its possible that they do actually die in that type of antibiotic environment, but I'm not counting on it anymore. I get the feeling that the only protection it will offer is against already vegetative contams, while still harboring the dormant ones...


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Invisiblefigment
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: creamcorn]
    #5499871 - 04/10/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Cool...makes sense...high surface tension and high sugar content are what stalls germination. I guess.


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Invisiblecappa
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: figment]
    #5500293 - 04/10/06 03:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In my previous post I was explaining 'high osmolality'. Which is the primary reason why honey and other syrups aren't just covered in contams.
see:
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/osmolality
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/osmotic
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/osmosis

The interaction with the available water leaves non for the contams to germinate.

Apparently 'some' honey has Antibacterial phytochemicals that stay active in the honey for a long time. 'Some' being the operative word. As said in a previous post 'Manuka' honey is the current focal point in the medical industry. I have my doubts that your average clover honey contains these chemicals in enough quantity or purity, or that they last long enough, to be effective on their own.
From what I understand:
When the bees are making the honey, hydrogen peroxide and some other anti-microbial enzymes are produced that kill the contams while the moisture is being taken away. Then the high osmolality effect comes into play, keeping the honey free of contams.

Medically their are a few different ways they are using it to dress wounds. Of particular interest to us is the use of hydrogen peroxide with honey to induce the release of some anti-microbiotic enzymes:
http://dermnetnz.org/treatments/honey.html
Apparently this process happens naturally when the honey is being formed originally by the bees.

That has definitely got me thinking, as we readily have these materials available in our hobby: H202 & honey.

Apparently, the Chinese feel it necessary to add preservatives to their honey as seen here:
http://www.beesource.com/news/article/dumping.htm

Our honey industry here in the USA warns about certain spores, found in raw honey, being toxic to children, botulism is found as well in raw honey. Apparently, liquid forms of honey also need to be pasteurized as seen here:
http://waltonfeed.com/grain/faqs/iid2.html

And finally, 'how do bees make honey' seen here:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question300.htm

So I guess it's a combination of processes and factors that help keep honey relatively contam free. Sorry for being too 'short winded' before in my previous post, and being too 'long winded' in this post.


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Their are 10 types of people. Those that understand binary, and those who don't.
~Cappa.


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Invisiblefigment
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: cappa]
    #5500355 - 04/10/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Damn dude! Thanks for the info. I'm gonna check it out.


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OfflineJSshroom
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: figment]
    #5500388 - 04/10/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I put my jar full of water in the Wave for a minute till it boils however long that takes. Then add the Karo and stick the lid back on with a 1/4 turn open. Cook on high till it boils then turn to defrost for a total cycle of 15 Minutes. Let cool in the Wave and reach in and tighten the lid. Knock it up No big deal, but if I am already using the PC I just throw them in there for 20-30 minutes.


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First Grow No more carpet tek


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Offlineskeletor
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: JSshroom]
    #5500623 - 04/10/06 05:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i did a test when thias first came up. made a honey water LC without PCing or other sterilization. never added spores and i had crap floating around a 2 days ish that definetly was not cube myc haha.


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Offlinexaxphaanes
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: skeletor]
    #5934384 - 08/05/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Too high a sugar content will not allow anything to grow in it. Thats why you cannot brew beer or wine to very high %



uhh that's not correct unless you add a shit load of sugar i use for my darkest porter 5 cups brown sugar 4 cups white sugar + malt which is suagr about 2 cans of that..and my beer still ferments just fine just makes the alcohol content much higher


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"Anything i say is fictional"
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InvisibleTippinthru
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: xaxphaanes]
    #5934436 - 08/05/06 12:29 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

A LC, and beer are 2 differing things.
They operate differently.
What works for one, doesn't always work best for the other.

LC should be under 4% sugars.
Higher will sometimes work.
But, why fool with a proven recipe.
If you want a decent LC.


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Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time...
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Offlineoutlawimmortal
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Re: why sterilze LCs? [Re: xaxphaanes]
    #5934625 - 08/05/06 01:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

xaxphaanes said:
Too high a sugar content will not allow anything to grow in it. Thats why you cannot brew beer or wine to very high %




sorry but gotta disagree. you can only ferment up to 12.5% alcohol by volume because the ethanol produced kills off the yeast cells.

please do correct me if i'm wrong


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...i just got thrown out of a bakery for asking if they sold lambs bread


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