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Blue Helix
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How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! 1
#5484818 - 04/05/06 10:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The secret to making a liquid culture complete fast is to use liquid culture to inoculate it and keep it stirring constantly (100 to 300 RPM seems to be about right) with a magnetic stirrer. Many don't realize that by keeping a liquid culture constantly stirring they can reduce their completion times from a week or more to only a couple days. Constant stirring rather than daily hand swishing can reduce colonization times in half (easily). Here is an example of a liquid culture of Pan Cyans that was inoculated with 10 ml of starter liquid culture into about a pint of solution ONLY 48 HOURS after inoculation:

The liberal use of starter solution also shaves days. For example if I used only 5ml of starter above, it would likely have taken 3 days to achieve about that same density. If I had added only 2 ml of starter, it might have taken up to five days. Here's a solution that is 5 days old using only 2 ml of starter LC:

And lastly spore inoculations rather than liquid culture inoculations typically add two days to completion times.
Okay, so where do you get a magnetic stirrer? Try Ebay. The best ones are direct drive, totally silent, and produce no heating on the plate when they are not supposed to. Get one from a good company like Fisher and don't mess with ones that look like junk (they probably are). You can figure a good used one will cost $25 to $50 depending on the exact condition, how quiet it runs, and how well the ad is written. Many come with hot plate ability. That is pretty much totally irrelevant for mycology usage, but keep an eye out for those that run hot even with the plate off (generally you don't get that with the name brand ones like Fisher). And when you get one, DON'T FORGET the Teflon-coated stir magnet! Get a stir magnet about 2" long for optimal quart-jar use. And lastly our very own Agar is a good resource for magnetic stirrer information, so maybe he can chime in here!
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Snaggletooth
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5484834 - 04/05/06 10:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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this is so cool, I would love to see this. I have been looking at this one, but just cant commit myself to it.
But this post helps
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tokey666
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Snaggletooth]
#5484892 - 04/05/06 10:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Awesome! Thanks blue. Good stuff there.
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onetime
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: tokey666]
#5484915 - 04/05/06 10:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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--------------------
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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Snaggletooth]
#5484919 - 04/05/06 10:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Snaggletooth, that is a hell of a good deal for a new unit and exactly the type you'd want. I don't think any new unit in that class would be any less no matter where you bought it. The only way you are going to fine less expensive is by spending time to look for a used one, which can be taking a chance to be honest. I got pretty lucky with a Fisher IsoTemp unit on Ebay, but they cost twice as much new even under clearance as the unit you are looking at:
http://www.bestlabdeals.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BLD20161
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HippieChick
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: tokey666] 1
#5484920 - 04/05/06 10:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've been thinking about getting one. Not for this reason, I usually have between 3-5 gallons of LC on hand always, but just because it's a toy I don't have yet 
Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony Hippie Chick
-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5484929 - 04/05/06 10:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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onetime, I bought one that looked like that and it ran pretty hot, so I don't use it. I had to add lots of silver bubble insulation between the quart jar and the surface to keep the liquid under 90F, and I can only imagine the juice it was drawing to make the plate that warm. I wouldn't recommend that one.
Nah, here's more what you want:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Corning-PC310-Magnet...1QQcmdZViewItem
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onetime
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5484935 - 04/05/06 10:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Oh thats sucks good that some one was able to point that out...
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See? Yes, with my own three eyes. Depression, Misspells , wanting everying thing i cant have haveing nothing i want
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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: onetime] 1
#5484954 - 04/05/06 10:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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onetime, remember what I said about if it looks like junk it probably is? Get one that looks sleek and like it was made in the last decade. The old units were loud (if belt driven) or run too warm. The newer units are silent and run cool with a direct drive. To do direct drive with a brushless motor--and that's what they have to use since they are designed to be stirring for years on end--you have to have a brushless speed controller which were not real common until 90s when variable-speed CD drives made them become super cheap and common.
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HippieChick
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5484963 - 04/05/06 10:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Those are nice units . I bought the Corning heat plate that looks exactly like it to run one of my PC's. It has an additional stir plate accessory, just haven't gotten it yet. Top quality equipment though And that's a good price. Might have to keep an eye on that . Thanks I like for my equipment to match,lol.

Peace,love,Happiness and Harmony Hippie Chick
-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
Edited by HippieChick (04/05/06 10:55 PM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: HippieChick]
#5484990 - 04/05/06 10:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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HippieChick, you REALLY are a chick (or being more proper a lady). LOL Never saw your face but I know now for sure it's true!
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Snaggletooth
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5484993 - 04/05/06 10:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Damn....I hoped you'd would say it was no good, but now I just had to ordered it...lol...
thanks man, well this should be interesting
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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Snaggletooth]
#5485001 - 04/05/06 11:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Should be a great little unit Snaggletooth. In the long haul it'll be worth every penny if you do any growing at all. I use mine to grow ALL types of mushrooms, not just magic ones. Reshi, Shiitake, oysters - all of them do well using liquid culture techniques and my trusty stir plate.
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IGnosticAbhorI
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5485005 - 04/05/06 11:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said: HippieChick, you REALLY are a chick (or being more proper a lady). LOL Never saw your face but I know now for sure it's true!
...Oh yeh, lol.
Anyways, back on topic :P
How exactly do they work? I've read up on them somewhat and still don't really understand it. Any guidance would be appreciated.
Tc
-Gnostic
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Snaggletooth
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5485016 - 04/05/06 11:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said: Should be a great little unit Snaggletooth. In the long haul it'll be worth every penny if you do any growing at all. I use mine to grow ALL types of mushrooms, not just magic ones. Reshi, Shiitake, oysters - all of them do well using liquid culture techniques and my trusty stir plate.
Yes I have been slowly expanding my horizon...thanks to those who teach
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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5485025 - 04/05/06 11:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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IGnosticAbhorI, basically you have a magnet in the stir plate under the plate that spins. Any magnet (or even piece of magnetic metal like say a paper clip or iron nail) on top will couple with the bottom magnet and spin with the same frequency. The magnet moving in circles in a liquid culture induces motion into the liquid. Additionally, the magnet can slice large blobs of mycelium into smaller pieces so blobs don't form in the liquid or on the surface. This constant motion benefits the liquid culture by promoting rapid gas diffusion at the surface. That means the mycelium can BREATH better.
A LITTLE TIP FOR EVERYONE HERE- You can buy a little silicon or neoprene tubing and stretch a tiny piece over the center of your Teflon magnet to silence the clinking sounds against the glass. It will act like a bumper. I highly recommend it.
Edited by Blue Helix (04/05/06 11:14 PM)
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IGnosticAbhorI
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5485043 - 04/05/06 11:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's what I was wondering, whether or not you actually had something inside of the jar (piece of metal)...
Clears a lot up, lol.
Thanks 
-Gnostic
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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
#5485056 - 04/05/06 11:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes, the most common magnets are Teflon-covered magnets that look something like these (these are 3" long which are little longer than I like):

As Teflon is an amazing plastic that doesn't melt (used to protect astronauts in space even) a magnet like this can be pressure cooked and even heated to several hundred of degrees without any damage to it.
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IGnosticAbhorI
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#5485062 - 04/05/06 11:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Damn those are big, lol.
That's some tough fucking plastic. 
-Gnostic
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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
#5485074 - 04/05/06 11:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, Teflon is a pretty bad ass plastic. It can survive temperatures of up to around 600F without any problem. They coat many cooking pans with it too because oils and water always keep the inside of a pan well below 600F and it's slippery so food just falls off it without sticking to the pan. Yeah, not all plastics are created equal for sure.
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Snaggletooth
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5485085 - 04/05/06 11:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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not to get off topic but isn't it also toxic....like if Teflon was to get in the grow process?
I mean I have learned that with a Macaw I had to get rid of ALL the Teflon coated pans...Cause if they over heat the fumes will kill the bird.
Or is toxicity (if any)not a concern here?
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Solidcell
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5485094 - 04/05/06 11:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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So Blue, can you explain your LC cycle? Do you just use one LC (that you had made with this method) and inoculate all the jars, and then put them on the plate at different times? How many of these stir plates do you have running? Do they stay hot enough on the plate alone or could they be running in a TiT? I really like the idea of this setup, LCs rock and anything that can make them quicker is a big plus.
-------------------- Psychedelic Jar Project "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." -Voltaire "Everything that I accepted as being true up to now I acquired from the senses or through the senses. However, I have occasionally found that they deceive me, and it is prudent never to trust those who have deceived us, even if only once." -Descartes
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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5485125 - 04/05/06 11:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Snaggletooth, if the plastic gets over 600F, it can release fumes that make a person feel sick and kill a bird. That can happen with a pan if you heat it on high without any food in it for several minutes. Having said that, oil also heated to the smoking point and left on high will release chemicals even more toxic than the teflon would have. The pressure cooker interior doesn't even exceed 250F. The teflon won't be anywhere close to 600F no matter what happens.
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agar
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5485139 - 04/05/06 11:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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 I bought this hvy duty one off ebay, a long while back for $35. (by heavy duty, I mean it will spin a table fork)
It was WELL worth the money.
Blue-Helix is right on the money about how fast you can grow out LC's with the aid of a stir plate.
 Day 4 constant stir
 One Gallon starting LC

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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Solidcell]
#5485182 - 04/06/06 12:02 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Solidcell, with the LC developing in only a a couple days, there is no need to have several running at the same time even if I were growing mushrooms all the time (which I don't). Instead I just store vacutainers containing 10ml of liquid culture in the refrigerator and a rubber top that I can draw it out when I need it. The liquid culture can stay in those for at least a year (maybe several) and remain viable.
I inoculate my LC using between 2 and 10 ml of starter LC (depending how much I happen to have and how fast I want it to finish). Once it's done, I always store a little bit in a replacement vacutainer. That way there are always vacutainers with fresh LC in them.
In my experience it is not a good idea to incubate LC beyond room temperature, and all the results above were done at room temperature. The main reason I don't increase the LC to ideal mycelium temperatures is because I have had trouble with bacteria when I did. I think that is because more heat tends to encourage bacteria to get the upper hand.
It seems to work like this: bacteria and mycelium are often together. If you are doing things right, the bacteria will die and lose to the mighty mycelium which will bind them up, kill them, and digest them. If you are doing things wrong, the bacteria will be too numerous before the mycelium can grow dense enough to battle. If the bacteria wins the battle, you'll be left with a cloudy mess for a liquid culture that eventually will smell terrible.
Now say bacteria and mycelium were in a battle and just about equally matched to win the gold right at inoculation (in this case the "gold" is the golden LC). If you raise the temperature from say room to 82F, the bacteria might get (and I am making these numbers up) 1.5X as fast while the mycelium only gets 1.2X as fast. That means the bacteria will overwhelm the mycelium and win the battle just because you raised the temperature a couple degrees. And that is why I say don't do it. Sure raising the temperature to optimal for the particular mycelium you are dealing with, _might_ make it develop a little faster, but if your starter isn't totally clean bacterially, it could mean you give the bacteria the chance it needs to beat out the mycelium and then you lose everything.
Edited by Blue Helix (04/06/06 12:11 AM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: agar]
#5485209 - 04/06/06 12:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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agar, I have always wondered why you and everyone else seems to have liquid cultures that look like snot while mine tend to look like snow. I use reverse osmosis water in mine and I wonder if that is what makes the difference. RO water has practically no buffering capacity which means the pH swings whatever way the mycelium drives it (which is probably acidic).
It's funny but sometimes they really look more like blobs than snow. Here was a REALLY weird one. It was Ausi Pan Cyan.

Edited by Blue Helix (04/06/06 12:21 AM)
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hIgHdRoLoVeR
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5485238 - 04/06/06 12:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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i must say blue helix that the magnetic stirrer is a great idea. not to hijack your thread or anything but i must know...what do you use to make your lc liquid? thanks
-------------------- hIgHdRoLoVeR Loving all things hydro since 1989. http://www.gardenscure.com/420/index.php the place to go for (medical) marijuana cultivation advice World of Warcrack...My anti-job!
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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5485262 - 04/06/06 12:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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MY LIQUID CULTURE ISN'T PERFECTLY CLEAR! What should I do?
I know there is this fascination with perfectly clear liquid cultures here on the Shroomery. Well, if you use malt and dextrose solution it ain't going to be clear unless you pressure cook, filter the solids out, and then pressure cook again OR get your hands on some real submicron filter paper. In any case, a perfectly clear solution is pretty but what does it buy you? Answer: pretty pictures. That gunk in the solution at the beginning makes absolutely no difference as long as it is sterilized. And the ironic part is that the solution will become clear if you just let the mycelium grow.
How does that work? If there are pieces of caramelized sugar, or whatever that crap is from the malt, in your liquid culture they just serve as starter surfaces for mycelium growth. I know this to be true because I have looked at liquid cultures under a compound microscope many times and noticed that the mycelium threads often are attached to some piece of solid. That's also why a strong liquid culture will suddenly become clear between the blobs or flakes of mycelium, because the mycelium grabs the solid gunk out of the solution and effectively filters the solution better than any coffee filter could. Mycelium filtration of a turbid or heavily bacterially contaminated solution are well know and well documented phenomenon.
Edited by Blue Helix (04/06/06 12:58 AM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: hIgHdRoLoVeR] 1
#5485275 - 04/06/06 12:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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hIgHdRoLoVeR, I use Agar's receipe. It is 2% malt sugar, 2% dextrose, and 96% reverse osmosis water (percentages measured by weight). I weigh out 2 grams light malt and 2 grams dextrose to about a pint (half quart jar) or a little more of water.
Light malt sugar can be found at any brewer's supply store. Extra light is the best. Dextrose can be found at many brewer supply stores, and I think you can substitue with corn syrup (but you use a little bit more corn syrup because it has water in it--I don't know the exact conversion). They also sell a pound of powdered dextrose as Spore Works last time I checked for about $10.
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agar
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5485336 - 04/06/06 01:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Part of the difference in the look of an LC has to do with PC times.
I tend to overdo PC times. Thus, mine tend to caramelize a bit more, than optimal.
Another factor is amount of gas exchange, rpm speeds, style of stir bar & duration of stirs.
But, no matter the look, color or myc's appearance.
So long as you have lots of aggressive myc, all is good .
A good friend physically visited http://www.magicmushrooms.org/ not long ago & reports they have numerous LC's spinning 24/7 that they use to inoculate all their rye substrates with.
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cappa
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5485346 - 04/06/06 01:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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On your side note:
My LCs look like snow balls too.. go figure. I use pretty heavily clorinated tap water. It taste more acidic than most tap water, so maybe you're onto something there.
Oh well, the myc doesn't seem to care, so I'm not gonna!
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IGnosticAbhorI
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: cappa]
#5485411 - 04/06/06 03:14 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
reverse osmosis water
...
?...No idea what you meant by that ...lol
What kind of water do you use? I usually boil my water for a little bit before I use it in an LC or spore syringe...Our water here isn't to great,so I'd rather buy bottled water if i'm up for spending the $$$, but i usually just boil it...
What kind of water are you talking about? 
-Gnostic
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agar
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
#5485434 - 04/06/06 04:14 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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reverse osmosis The term reverse osmosis comes from the process of osmosis, the natural movement of solvent from an area of low solute concentration, through a membrane, to an area of high solute concentration if no external pressure is applied.
In simple terms, reverse osmosis is the process of pushing a solution through a filter that traps the solute on one side and allows the pure solvent to be obtained from the other side. More formally, it is the process of forcing a solvent from a region of high solute concentration through a membrane to a region of low solute concentration by applying a pressure in excess of the osmotic pressure. The membrane here is semipermeable, meaning it allows the passage of solvent but not of solute.
The membranes used for reverse osmosis have no pores, the separation takes place in a dense polymer layer of only microscopic thickness. In most cases the membrane is designed to only allow water to pass through. The water goes into solution in the polymer of which the membrane is manufactured, and crosses it by diffusion. This process requires that a high pressure be exerted on the high concentration side of the membrane, usually 5 MPa - 20 MPa (50 bar - 200 bar).
This process is best known for its use in desalination (removing the salt from sea water to get fresh water) and has been used in this way since the early 1970s.
Method When two solutions with different concentrations of a solute are mixed together, the total amount of solutes in the two solutions will be equally distributed in the total amount of solvent from the two solutions. This is achieved by diffusion, in which solutes will move from areas of higher concentration to areas of lower concentrations until the concentration in all the different areas of the resulting mixture are the same, a state called equilibrium.
Instead of mixing the two solutions together, they can be put in two compartments where they are separated from each other by a semipermeable membrane. The semipermeable membrane does not allow the solutes to move from one compartment to the other, but allows the solvent to move. Since equilibrium cannot be achieved by the movement of solutes from the compartment with high solute concentration to the one with low solute concentration, it is instead, achieved by the movement of the solvent from areas of low solute concentration to areas of high solute concentration. When the solvent moves away from low concentration areas, it causes these areas to become more concentrated. On the other side, when the solvent moves into areas of high concentration, solute concentration will decrease. This process is termed osmosis. The tendency for solvent to flow through the membrane can be expressed as "osmotic pressure", since it is analogous to flow caused by a pressure differential.
In reverse osmosis, in a similar setup as that in osmosis, pressure is applied to the compartment with high concentration. In this case, there are two forces to consider influencing the movement of water: the pressure caused by the difference in solute concentration between the two compartments (the osmotic pressure) and the externally applied pressure. In the same way as in conventional osmosis, the solute cannot move from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure because the membrane is not permeable to it, only the solvent can pass through the membrane. When the effect of the externally applied pressure is greater than that of the concentration difference, net solvent movement will be from areas of high solute concentration to low solute concentration, and reverse osmosis occurs.
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zoopzoop
Stranger

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malt sugar and dextrose? Expensive? at pharmacies? [Re: agar]
#5485475 - 04/06/06 05:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Im wondering if I can through in a coupla lentil sprouts in a jar of water, sterilize it, toss in some colonizd CC, and have that colonized (all under sterile procedure, of course...) My jar would not have any AIRHOLES AT ALL is this vital in liquid inoculant too couldn't i get away with making a liquid innoc jar without airholes?
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Blue Helix
bold hand


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Re: malt sugar and dextrose? Expensive? at pharmacies? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
#5485968 - 04/06/06 10:06 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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A full blown typical home reverse osmosis unit is around $150 from Sam's Club or Costco and produces as much drinking water as a family could consume in a day every day. You just draw the water you want from a special little faucet that you install at your kitchen sink. The water that comes out has around 95% or more of all dissolved solids removed and, thus, is much cleaner than the majority of expensive bottled waters but at probably a hundredth or less the cost of bottled water (the only cost is that you lose 3 gallons of fresh water per gallon reverse osmosis produced... and even this cost is gone with some really fancy units). In fact, some bottled waters are made via reverse osmosis like Coca Cola's Dasani. For those who have saltwater reef tanks or high-end fresh water fish tanks, reverse osmosis units are nearly a must-have item because tap water just isn't clean enough and will promote algae growth even if you dechlorinate it. Here is a company sells NSF-certified reverse osmosis units for a decent price for the home (see "The Water Cop" unit under drinking water for a typical home drinking set up):
http://www.airwaterice.com/
Edited by Blue Helix (04/06/06 10:26 AM)
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Babo911
Pooper Scooper


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Re: malt sugar and dextrose? Expensive? at pharmacies? [Re: Blue Helix]
#5486082 - 04/06/06 10:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I like to use 94cc h20 6cc kero w/ agar's moded plastic jar lids. For the tek i am using do you think a sturer will be nessary for me, i would love to get one if it will make my LC grow that faster, and with you guys said i have no need to keep in my TiT?
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Ronhero on the Growery is me
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Blue Helix
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Re: malt sugar and dextrose? Expensive? at pharmacies? [Re: Babo911]
#5486646 - 04/06/06 02:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Babo911, not only do you not need a TiT setup, I recommend no special incubation for safe and consistent results.
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IGnosticAbhorI
Stranger-er

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Re: malt sugar and dextrose? Expensive? at pharmacies? [Re: Blue Helix]
#5486959 - 04/06/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hey BH, I found quite a few, any brands in particular I should look for?
Whenever I come into some $ i'll get one 
Thanks
-Gnostic
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nugjug
Wanderer

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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
#5490824 - 04/07/06 06:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I was wondering how often you can start a new liquid culture from an old one before you run into problems. I thought I remembered reading that you only want to do 3 stages of grain to grain transfers before you started to get quality loss.
I was wondering if this was a problem with LCs. Can I just take a little bit from a colonized LC and use it to start a new LC and then take a little bit from that one when it is done to start another one, so on and so forth?
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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: nugjug]
#5491548 - 04/08/06 12:13 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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nugjug, this is not a well known thing. No one can answer you question because no definite data has been collected. I seriously doubt you'd run into problems for several hundred jars of LC. Many mushroom farms have done this without problem.
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nugjug
Wanderer

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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5496925 - 04/09/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ok, thanks for the response. I just won't worry about it then.
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mogur
regnartS

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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: nugjug]
#5498090 - 04/09/06 09:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's called aging, and yes, it is well known to pro growers. Also known as senescence, it has been widely discussed on this and other forums. The way to avoid the resulting loss of vigor is to keep and use a master culture, so that the new culture starts at the same age as the master, instead of increasing the starting age by using subsequent cultures. Pros keep master cultures in liquid nitrogen, to maximize longevity. If a lot of effort has gone into isolating a very productive strain, it is nursed as long as possible by only refreshing the cultures every few propagations (they are not called 'generations' because their is no sexual recombination involved). When a new culture is cloned from existing mycelium, it brings along its chemical history. At a certain point, senescence causes the hyphal cells to lose their ability to divide, and fruiting production drops off markedly.
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Blue Helix
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: mogur]
#5498382 - 04/09/06 11:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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mogur, I have listened to people who RUN MUSHROOM FARMS totally disagree with almost everything you just said. Before you spout off like the prophet, you might want to talk to more people than just the spawn producers, like Paul Stamets, who have a vested interest in making spawn production seem as complicated as possible to line their own pockets. In case you didn't know, there are single mycelium colonies as large as a thousand acres (one may be even over 2000 acres), so don't tell me about mycelium aging without some hard evidence to back it up. There are, by the way, numerous examples of organisms that do not age, period, and live as long as they have the proper conditions to live.
This whole business of losing mycelium vigor is probably more related to lacking variability in substrates with time and thus promoting highly specific digestive profiles that are to the detriment to the organism. That has been proposed by several people, and I think it is quite likely.
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mogur
regnartS

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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5498734 - 04/10/06 01:34 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Dude, I'm your biggest fan. No need to slam me with that prophet comment. I didn't try to come off sounding like a guru, if I did, I apologize. I really am uncomfortable with differing from you on anything, but you have to admit that most people are on my side of this argument. There are endless posts that refer to the aging phenomenon of mushrooms. I thought it would be constructive to bring up that point in this thread. Meant no disrespect to your knowledge, experience, and willingness to contribute for our benefit.
[EDIT DELETE: I thought you were saying that Stamets backed your argument, so I quoted from him, but on re-reading your post, I now see you were saying that he is one of the people with a monetary incentive to encourage the (so-called) myth of aging.]
So, now I have to scrounge up something else to back up my position... damn, give me a little time to research.....
Edited by mogur (04/10/06 02:28 AM)
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mogur
regnartS

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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: mogur]
#5498832 - 04/10/06 04:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There are a lot of scientists that make their living off the study of fungal senescence, and they are definitely not part of the Stamets conspiracy. Here is just one study.
At the risk of spouting off like a prophet, I must quote the concluding paragraph, which is the least incomprehensible of the entire study-Quote:
With respect to aging in filamentous fungi, it appears that the nd mutant conforms to the idea that the senescence syndromes of these organisms involve mitochondrial dysfunction resulting from mutations affecting mtDNA (2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 15, 17). However, the nd mutant is different from all other systems that have been analyzed to date in that the instability in the mtDNA is caused by a recessive mutation in a nuclear gene rather than a mutation in the mitochondrial genome that mediates directly the suppressive accumulation of a specific class of mutant mtDNA molecules. Since the nd locus seems to be involved primarily, if not exclusively, with the metabolism of mtDNA, its molecular and genetic characterization should provide some insights into the role of nuclear genes in the maintenance, replication, repair, and recombination of mitochondrial genetic material, including mitochondrial plasmids, in N. crassa.
You may argue that psilocbyes are not mentioned in most (if any) of these studies, but likewise your example of a huge mass of mycelium is similarly handicapped. I do agree with you, on the other hand, that lack of substrate variability can lead to some form of enzyme production fatigue, and reduced vigor.
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Blue Helix
bold hand


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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5499206 - 04/10/06 09:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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mogur, I am not a prophet or mycology expert either. I am just presenting the other side of the argument, and I apologize for not presenting BOTH sides at the onset (I should have). Better late than never I suppose...
I have heard arguments on both sides regarding this issue. Some have pointed to the 1000-acre mycelium growths in nature under forests and the genetic testing that has been done at the center and fringes of these huge cultures which show no genetic differences nor fruiting differences. They say that is proof that any mycelium culture does not age in an ideal setting. Others show documented cases where older cultures have lost vigor in practice growing edibles through successive generations, and you can imagine the financial catastrophe that can represent for a spawn production facility if that did happen though a damaged reputation. Still others point out that the way most feed the mushrooms through agar propagation (i.e. the same formula over and over) might cause them to age unnaturally from poor diet, and so one must vary the agar formulation of generations all the time or face declines in vigor (this was the mushroom farm's guy's argument). I don't know. Personally, I never tried to grow out an agar for more than a half dozen generations, and this stuff is supposedly evident a lot later than that.
And one last thing, I don't want to come off sounding like I am against Paul Stamets. I highly respect Stamets for his work in the field of mycology. He hasn't been right on everything in the past--he'd probably be the first to admit it--but he's alway doing and writing about real interesting research in the field. I do, however, feel he is a business man, and if it's in his business interest to advertise that avoiding senescence is a critical aspect of spawn production, I wouldn't put it past him to do just that, even if the mycologist in him isn't sure on the issue. In reality the study of aging in mammals is an emerging field of science that only recently has made great progress in understandings what it even means to age on a cellular level, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that we don't know what's going on in fungus yet.
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Oatman2000
-=Outa Space=-



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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Snaggletooth]
#5554664 - 04/25/06 11:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Snaggletooth said: this is so cool, I would love to see this. I have been looking at this one, but just cant commit myself to it.
But this post helps
Snaggle.... just ordered me one of these. SWEET! NO SHIPPING COST, OR TAX. $76.50 FLAT
--------------------
Spawning to COIR
My Chocolate Recipe
WBS QUART SPAWN JAR PREPERATION ----------------------------
4-PO-DMT; 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethltryptamine
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HippieChick
Chicks can do it too!


Registered: 02/20/05
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Oatman2000]
#5554974 - 04/25/06 01:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Glad this post made it back . I'm going to be trying mine tonight for the first time 

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony Hippie Chick
-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
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Solidcell
tolerance++;


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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: HippieChick]
#5554983 - 04/25/06 01:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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How do you get something so sweet for under $50? I gotta know where to start looking!
-------------------- Psychedelic Jar Project "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." -Voltaire "Everything that I accepted as being true up to now I acquired from the senses or through the senses. However, I have occasionally found that they deceive me, and it is prudent never to trust those who have deceived us, even if only once." -Descartes
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time2
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Solidcell]
#5555093 - 04/25/06 02:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Need to find one also... If anyone has one they need to sell PM me.. Under $50 though I'm not that rich lol.
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HippieChick
Chicks can do it too!


Registered: 02/20/05
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: time2]
#5555099 - 04/25/06 02:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
time2 said: Need to find one also... If anyone has one they need to sell PM me.. Under $50 though I'm not that rich lol.
Good Luck . I watch them on E-Bay and they are quite expensive 
Single stir plates usually go for a minimum of 70-80 dollars .
Don't know how I got so lucky on mine Saw one like it , untested and no guarantee to even work , go for $103 . 
Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony Hippie Chick
-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
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ESanceOfCyan
MushroomMogul


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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: HippieChick]
#5555242 - 04/25/06 03:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Mine was under 30$ with shipping via Ebay.com Then again i do kick ass at ebay! You can always check your local Thrift Stores!
-------------------- Save Marc
www.emeryseeds.com Holy dog shit! Texas? Only steers and queers come from Texas, Private Cowboy. And you don't look much like a steer to me so that kinda narrows it down. Do you suck dicks? -Gunnery Sergeant Hartman(Full-Metal Jacket)
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time2
Stranger
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: ESanceOfCyan]
#5556055 - 04/25/06 07:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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ok guess I'll get one in a couple weeks. Those damn bills are piling up
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Blue Helix
bold hand


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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: time2]
#5556585 - 04/25/06 09:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you do the right search on Ebay, you can find them $30 to $60 every single day of the week. Here are some around $30 to $40 at this very minute (ALL of them are Buy It Now):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Toyo-Magnetic-Stirre...1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/Sybron-Thermolyne-Nu...1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/Thermolyne-Nuova-II-...1QQcmdZViewItem
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time2
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5556649 - 04/25/06 10:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thanks Blue Helix .
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time2
Stranger
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: time2]
#5556712 - 04/25/06 10:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Also... when I have a Stir Plate... I take my Liquid Culture and put a magnet in it or what?
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HippieChick
Chicks can do it too!


Registered: 02/20/05
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5556748 - 04/25/06 10:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Those are some sweet deals Blue . If I still needed one I'd snatch up one of those in a second .
Peace,love,Happiness and Harmony Hippie Chick
-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
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rungi
journeymana

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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: HippieChick]
#9172430 - 11/02/08 01:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Blue helix are the starters, of the pictured liquid culture, multispores germinated in broth, or are the starters mycelium covered agar wedges dropped in broth and then blended?
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Mephistophelian
Quasi Hob-Nobbery




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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: rungi]
#9172449 - 11/02/08 01:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is a 2 1/2 year old thread...
necromancing threads won't get you any answers.
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billycorgan55
Stranger

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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Snaggletooth]
#9300762 - 11/23/08 10:13 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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is there a way to make hoemade agar?
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billycorgan55
Stranger

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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#9431911 - 12/14/08 06:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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what medium did you use?
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veda_sticks
Cultivator




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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: billycorgan55]
#9432104 - 12/14/08 07:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Im glad this post got resurfaced, there is a hell of a lot of good information in there.
Yes theres a way to make agar, using agar agar.
use the search feature.
-------------------- PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666 Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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scubabuddha
friend of a friend of a friend



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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: veda_sticks]
#9433250 - 12/14/08 09:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
veda_sticks said: Im glad this post got resurfaced, there is a hell of a lot of good information in there.
Yes theres a way to make agar, using agar agar.
use the search feature.
yeah, there is. i didn't realize a stir plate would increase LC performance so much.
can you use a stir plate for more than one container at a time?
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HippieChick
Chicks can do it too!



Registered: 02/20/05
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: scubabuddha]
#9433292 - 12/14/08 10:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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You can buy stir plates with more than one place to place jars
 
but if the plate is made for one jar , you can't put more than one on it.
Peace,Love and Happiness HC
-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
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scubabuddha
friend of a friend of a friend



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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: HippieChick] 1
#9433349 - 12/14/08 10:13 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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so... if i were planning to make a stir plate, i'd need a spot for each jar?
i feel like there's gotta be a way to make a stir plate for however many jars you could fit on it...
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Shroominit
Part Time Mycologist



Registered: 11/29/08
Posts: 4,662
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: scubabuddha]
#9434178 - 12/15/08 12:18 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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scubabuddha, maybe you should look at how they work then.
You take a magnet with N and S poles like (N ========= S) and you put it in the jar (and sterilize and whatever) then put it on the plate. Under the plate you have an electromagnet I'm pretty sure that is a circle O and the electricity creates a magnetic field that circles around it, dragging one pole of the magnet with it, while pushing the other away. Putting two on it would just make them both shake in place, or jump up the side of a jar (and probably stick to the lid).
Now if you're making one with the computer fan method, you definitely need to use that many fans, etc. If you plan to make an electromagnetic one, it would be awesome and I want the plans, but you could definitely fit a stir spot per jar width on it.
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scubabuddha
friend of a friend of a friend



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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Shroominit]
#9434249 - 12/15/08 12:31 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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i've been thinking about it since i posted that and it's definitely do-able. (warning: nerd talk) you need to run inductors in a snaking pattern under the entire plate you plan to use and drive an AC current through them. if you switch the turn direction of every other inductor (so first one is clockwise, the next is counter clockwise, back to CW, etc.) you'll get a uniderictional, alternating magnetic field on the top side... if you put a jar with a stir bar in it anywhere within this field it should work. (end nerd talk)
--------------------
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MadR13d
Stranger

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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: scubabuddha]
#18324228 - 05/26/13 05:09 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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I got 3 jars with water and Kayro syrup, mycelium showing growth. The strains are Reishi, King Oyster, and Pearl Oyster.
Concerning the proper sterile procedure for this when I get these self-healing plugs in the mail...
After you flame heat the syringe till red hot, you just let it cool in the air in front of your hood?
Then do jar to jar/grain transfers?
Also, where can you order the filter screw in things?
Thanks,
MadR13d
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MadR13d
Stranger

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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: MadR13d]
#18324242 - 05/26/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Oh yeah, and is there some method in Mycology, where they can date how old mycelium is? Like, one of these really large ones growing in the wild?
Thanks again, MadR13d
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Jman420
MagicJ



Registered: 12/23/12
Posts: 866
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Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: MadR13d]
#18324247 - 05/26/13 05:12 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
MadR13d said: I got 3 jars with water and Kayro syrup, mycelium showing growth. The strains are Reishi, King Oyster, and Pearl Oyster.
Concerning the proper sterile procedure for this when I get these self-healing plugs in the mail...
After you flame heat the syringe till red hot, you just let it cool in the air in front of your hood?
Then do jar to jar/grain transfers?
Also, where can you order the filter screw in things?
Thanks,
MadR13d
Here ya go bro, Check out our Sponsors page.
Bunch of different places to find materials. All from reputable vendors too.
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