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nugjug
Wanderer

Registered: 11/07/05
Posts: 703
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5496925 - 04/09/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ok, thanks for the response. I just won't worry about it then.
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mogur
regnartS

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Puget Sound
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: nugjug]
#5498090 - 04/09/06 09:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's called aging, and yes, it is well known to pro growers. Also known as senescence, it has been widely discussed on this and other forums. The way to avoid the resulting loss of vigor is to keep and use a master culture, so that the new culture starts at the same age as the master, instead of increasing the starting age by using subsequent cultures. Pros keep master cultures in liquid nitrogen, to maximize longevity. If a lot of effort has gone into isolating a very productive strain, it is nursed as long as possible by only refreshing the cultures every few propagations (they are not called 'generations' because their is no sexual recombination involved). When a new culture is cloned from existing mycelium, it brings along its chemical history. At a certain point, senescence causes the hyphal cells to lose their ability to divide, and fruiting production drops off markedly.
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 17 days
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: mogur]
#5498382 - 04/09/06 11:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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mogur, I have listened to people who RUN MUSHROOM FARMS totally disagree with almost everything you just said. Before you spout off like the prophet, you might want to talk to more people than just the spawn producers, like Paul Stamets, who have a vested interest in making spawn production seem as complicated as possible to line their own pockets. In case you didn't know, there are single mycelium colonies as large as a thousand acres (one may be even over 2000 acres), so don't tell me about mycelium aging without some hard evidence to back it up. There are, by the way, numerous examples of organisms that do not age, period, and live as long as they have the proper conditions to live.
This whole business of losing mycelium vigor is probably more related to lacking variability in substrates with time and thus promoting highly specific digestive profiles that are to the detriment to the organism. That has been proposed by several people, and I think it is quite likely.
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mogur
regnartS

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Puget Sound
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5498734 - 04/10/06 01:34 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Dude, I'm your biggest fan. No need to slam me with that prophet comment. I didn't try to come off sounding like a guru, if I did, I apologize. I really am uncomfortable with differing from you on anything, but you have to admit that most people are on my side of this argument. There are endless posts that refer to the aging phenomenon of mushrooms. I thought it would be constructive to bring up that point in this thread. Meant no disrespect to your knowledge, experience, and willingness to contribute for our benefit.
[EDIT DELETE: I thought you were saying that Stamets backed your argument, so I quoted from him, but on re-reading your post, I now see you were saying that he is one of the people with a monetary incentive to encourage the (so-called) myth of aging.]
So, now I have to scrounge up something else to back up my position... damn, give me a little time to research.....
Edited by mogur (04/10/06 02:28 AM)
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mogur
regnartS

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Puget Sound
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: mogur]
#5498832 - 04/10/06 04:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There are a lot of scientists that make their living off the study of fungal senescence, and they are definitely not part of the Stamets conspiracy. Here is just one study.
At the risk of spouting off like a prophet, I must quote the concluding paragraph, which is the least incomprehensible of the entire study-Quote:
With respect to aging in filamentous fungi, it appears that the nd mutant conforms to the idea that the senescence syndromes of these organisms involve mitochondrial dysfunction resulting from mutations affecting mtDNA (2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 15, 17). However, the nd mutant is different from all other systems that have been analyzed to date in that the instability in the mtDNA is caused by a recessive mutation in a nuclear gene rather than a mutation in the mitochondrial genome that mediates directly the suppressive accumulation of a specific class of mutant mtDNA molecules. Since the nd locus seems to be involved primarily, if not exclusively, with the metabolism of mtDNA, its molecular and genetic characterization should provide some insights into the role of nuclear genes in the maintenance, replication, repair, and recombination of mitochondrial genetic material, including mitochondrial plasmids, in N. crassa.
You may argue that psilocbyes are not mentioned in most (if any) of these studies, but likewise your example of a huge mass of mycelium is similarly handicapped. I do agree with you, on the other hand, that lack of substrate variability can lead to some form of enzyme production fatigue, and reduced vigor.
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 17 days
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5499206 - 04/10/06 09:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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mogur, I am not a prophet or mycology expert either. I am just presenting the other side of the argument, and I apologize for not presenting BOTH sides at the onset (I should have). Better late than never I suppose...
I have heard arguments on both sides regarding this issue. Some have pointed to the 1000-acre mycelium growths in nature under forests and the genetic testing that has been done at the center and fringes of these huge cultures which show no genetic differences nor fruiting differences. They say that is proof that any mycelium culture does not age in an ideal setting. Others show documented cases where older cultures have lost vigor in practice growing edibles through successive generations, and you can imagine the financial catastrophe that can represent for a spawn production facility if that did happen though a damaged reputation. Still others point out that the way most feed the mushrooms through agar propagation (i.e. the same formula over and over) might cause them to age unnaturally from poor diet, and so one must vary the agar formulation of generations all the time or face declines in vigor (this was the mushroom farm's guy's argument). I don't know. Personally, I never tried to grow out an agar for more than a half dozen generations, and this stuff is supposedly evident a lot later than that.
And one last thing, I don't want to come off sounding like I am against Paul Stamets. I highly respect Stamets for his work in the field of mycology. He hasn't been right on everything in the past--he'd probably be the first to admit it--but he's alway doing and writing about real interesting research in the field. I do, however, feel he is a business man, and if it's in his business interest to advertise that avoiding senescence is a critical aspect of spawn production, I wouldn't put it past him to do just that, even if the mycologist in him isn't sure on the issue. In reality the study of aging in mammals is an emerging field of science that only recently has made great progress in understandings what it even means to age on a cellular level, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that we don't know what's going on in fungus yet.
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Oatman2000
-=Outa Space=-



Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2,877
Loc: Planetary Nebula
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Snaggletooth]
#5554664 - 04/25/06 11:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Snaggletooth said: this is so cool, I would love to see this. I have been looking at this one, but just cant commit myself to it.
But this post helps
Snaggle.... just ordered me one of these. SWEET! NO SHIPPING COST, OR TAX. $76.50 FLAT
--------------------
Spawning to COIR
My Chocolate Recipe
WBS QUART SPAWN JAR PREPERATION ----------------------------
4-PO-DMT; 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethltryptamine
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HippieChick
Chicks can do it too!


Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 5,958
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 3 years, 12 days
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Oatman2000]
#5554974 - 04/25/06 01:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Glad this post made it back . I'm going to be trying mine tonight for the first time 

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony Hippie Chick
-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
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Solidcell
tolerance++;


Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 754
Loc: Memphis & 53rd
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: HippieChick]
#5554983 - 04/25/06 01:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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How do you get something so sweet for under $50? I gotta know where to start looking!
-------------------- Psychedelic Jar Project "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." -Voltaire "Everything that I accepted as being true up to now I acquired from the senses or through the senses. However, I have occasionally found that they deceive me, and it is prudent never to trust those who have deceived us, even if only once." -Descartes
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time2
Stranger
Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 357
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Solidcell]
#5555093 - 04/25/06 02:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Need to find one also... If anyone has one they need to sell PM me.. Under $50 though I'm not that rich lol.
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HippieChick
Chicks can do it too!


Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 5,958
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 3 years, 12 days
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: time2]
#5555099 - 04/25/06 02:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
time2 said: Need to find one also... If anyone has one they need to sell PM me.. Under $50 though I'm not that rich lol.
Good Luck . I watch them on E-Bay and they are quite expensive 
Single stir plates usually go for a minimum of 70-80 dollars .
Don't know how I got so lucky on mine Saw one like it , untested and no guarantee to even work , go for $103 . 
Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony Hippie Chick
-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
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ESanceOfCyan
MushroomMogul


Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 506
Loc: SeaTown
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: HippieChick]
#5555242 - 04/25/06 03:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Mine was under 30$ with shipping via Ebay.com Then again i do kick ass at ebay! You can always check your local Thrift Stores!
-------------------- Save Marc
www.emeryseeds.com Holy dog shit! Texas? Only steers and queers come from Texas, Private Cowboy. And you don't look much like a steer to me so that kinda narrows it down. Do you suck dicks? -Gunnery Sergeant Hartman(Full-Metal Jacket)
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time2
Stranger
Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 357
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: ESanceOfCyan]
#5556055 - 04/25/06 07:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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ok guess I'll get one in a couple weeks. Those damn bills are piling up
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 17 days
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: time2]
#5556585 - 04/25/06 09:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you do the right search on Ebay, you can find them $30 to $60 every single day of the week. Here are some around $30 to $40 at this very minute (ALL of them are Buy It Now):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Toyo-Magnetic-Stirre...1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/Sybron-Thermolyne-Nu...1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/Thermolyne-Nuova-II-...1QQcmdZViewItem
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time2
Stranger
Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 357
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5556649 - 04/25/06 10:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thanks Blue Helix .
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time2
Stranger
Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 357
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: time2]
#5556712 - 04/25/06 10:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Also... when I have a Stir Plate... I take my Liquid Culture and put a magnet in it or what?
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HippieChick
Chicks can do it too!


Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 5,958
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 3 years, 12 days
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Blue Helix]
#5556748 - 04/25/06 10:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Those are some sweet deals Blue . If I still needed one I'd snatch up one of those in a second .
Peace,love,Happiness and Harmony Hippie Chick
-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
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rungi
journeymana

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 212
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: HippieChick]
#9172430 - 11/02/08 01:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Blue helix are the starters, of the pictured liquid culture, multispores germinated in broth, or are the starters mycelium covered agar wedges dropped in broth and then blended?
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Mephistophelian
Quasi Hob-Nobbery




Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 2,527
Loc: Camp Crystal Lake
Last seen: 10 months, 22 days
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: rungi]
#9172449 - 11/02/08 01:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is a 2 1/2 year old thread...
necromancing threads won't get you any answers.
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billycorgan55
Stranger

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 537
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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Re: How to make a liquid cultures FAST (like two days)! [Re: Snaggletooth]
#9300762 - 11/23/08 10:13 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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is there a way to make hoemade agar?
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