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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Boom]
    #5526817 - 04/17/06 08:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Booooom said:
I don't think that Spanish building had a Boeing flying into it at 500 miles an hour, spilling thousands of gallons of jet fuel. While the buildings withstood the initial impact and explosion, the jet fuel continued to burn.

Steel doesn't have to reach a melting point to be significantly weakened




However, steel does have to reach a melting point if it is to be molten. If you look back at your last post, you specifically used the word 'molten', as if it was a fact that the steel in the WTC Twin Towers was in a molten state as the buildings collapsed.

Supposedly the maximum burning temperature of standard jet fuel, Jet A, is no more than 1500 degree Fahrenheit. I am not going to post a source for this, because most sites that I found which have this information are directly referring to the WTC incident. So it is debatable whether or not this is a valid temperature.

However, I did find a site that does not make reference to the WTC incident, which states that the melting point for steel is 2750 degrees Fahrenheit. http://education.jlab.org/qa/meltingpoint_01.html

This makes it seem very unlikely that the steel in the WTC Twin Towers was molten when the buildings collapsed. It could still be possible that the steel was weakened, but it seems unlikely, seeing as how Jet A (the standard jet fuel), can only burn at a temperature that is approximately 54% of steel's melting point.

Now, if something that burned at a higher temperature than jet fuel was also burning within the WTC Twin Towers prior to their collapse, then it seems highly probable that the steel would be heated to its melting point such that it would be significantly weakened, leading to collapse. The only thing I could think of was thermite, which has a maximum burning temperature of 4500 degrees Fahrenheit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite

So if you do not want to retract your statement that "one floor eventually gave way, slamming 100s of tons (maybe more) of molten steel onto the floor below," then you must admit that something other than jet fuel caused the steel to melt, else you are making claim to what seems like a logical impossibility (and hence a physical impossibility).

My questions for your are:

1) If the steel was in a molten state, then what caused it to to arrive at such a state, since jet fuel is inadequate to cause that state?

2) If the steel was not in a molten state, then is it even possible for a fire that is burning at 54% of the melting point of steel to significantly weaken a buildings structure, causing it to collapse? How can an answer to this question be justified?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Darcho]
    #5526930 - 04/17/06 08:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)



Note that all temperatures are in celcius.

According to BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1540044.stm), the steel core of the buildings reached 800 celcius, which according that that graph would reduce te stability of the structure to under 20% of it's cooled strength. I don't claim to know what happened that day, but to say that a commcercial jet being flown into even a well-built tower wouldn't knock it down is absurd.


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Redstorm]
    #5527581 - 04/17/06 11:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That's a useful graph, perhaps you could source it? I have tried to find similar graphs, but to no avail.

However, I did find an informative article that may be a bit dated and well known to some posters here (you never know):

Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation

It was written by Thomas W. Eagar, and a graduate student. Here are his homepages, in case you are not sure whether to trust him: http://www-dmse.mit.edu/faculty/faculty/tweagar/index.html and http://eagar.mit.edu/.

Even this MIT engineering professor doubts that the steel in the WTC Twin Towers reached a molten state. But why has there been molten steel found in the ruins? Some claim it was the energy of the collapse, others claim it may be thermite. Both seem plausible, and yet both seem suspicious. One thing seems to be for sure: it was not the jet fuel fire.

On another note: it seems to me as if one of the only reasons the nature of the destruction of the WTC Twin Towers (either demolition or honest-to-goodness structural flaws caused by jetliner crashes), comes into question is because of the destruction of the infamous WTC Building 7. This building was not hit by a plane, its structure was not weakened, and it did not have intense fires raging inside of it (albeit there were fires in the building, but not to the extent to cause collapse). Yet, the building collapsed. The mystery behind this, and the fact that it seems as if it was a controlled demolition, seems to lead people to conclude that it is quite possible that the Twin Towers collapsed because of a controlled demolition. Perhaps if the truth behind Building 7 were to come forth, then the truth about the collapse of the Twin Towers could be finalized.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Darcho]
    #5528019 - 04/18/06 01:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I guess the steel question simply boils down to this: plane crashes or not, steel bending when heated or not, why were there puddles of molten steel underneath the rubble up until weeks after the fact? How could those temperatures be reached? We're talking way higher than the melting point of steel, since the puddles remained so hot for so long.

BTW, I'm still looking for a serious link stating positively that the energy of the collapsing buildings could have made the steel melt into puddles. I've seen this assertion only on this board, or negatively stated by skeptics who said this wasn't possible. If someone has a link to scientists claiming this, I'd be interested.


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InvisibleRogues_Pierre
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Aldous]
    #5528381 - 04/18/06 06:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

When I took metal shop is junior high school, we used to heat pieces of steel red hot using natural gas. When it was red hot, it was soft enough to bend, twist, etc. Its easy for me to see that burning jet fuel can soften steel.


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InvisibleRogues_Pierre
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Rogues_Pierre]
    #5528384 - 04/18/06 06:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)



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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Darcho]
    #5528900 - 04/18/06 10:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

That's a useful graph, perhaps you could source it? I have tried to find similar graphs, but to no avail.




No problem-o.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030818132750/http://www.corusconstruction.com/fire/fr006.htm

It's a page detailing steelwork fire resistance and is published by a steel construction company, so I would definitely say it is legitimate.


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Rogues_Pierre]
    #5528912 - 04/18/06 10:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rogues_Pierre said:
When I took metal shop is junior high school, we used to heat pieces of steel red hot using natural gas. When it was red hot, it was soft enough to bend, twist, etc. Its easy for me to see that burning jet fuel can soften steel.




In this metal shop the flame that was most probably being used to heat the steel was a pre-mixed flame, which has (what could be called), a medium heat intensity. However, in the flame in the Twin Towers would be no such flame, and it would more likely have been a diffusion flame, a flame which has a low heat intensity.

Although, the natural gas flame used in a metal shop may be a diffusion flame, and that being so, it can be said that such a flame is more direct and concentrated than the diffusion flames in the Twin Towers.

The flame from jet fuel may be able to weaken steel, but the type of flame that it is should be factored into consideration.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Rogues_Pierre]
    #5529430 - 04/18/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rogues_Pierre said:
When I took metal shop is junior high school, we used to heat pieces of steel red hot using natural gas.  When it was red hot, it was soft enough to bend, twist, etc.  Its easy for me to see that burning jet fuel can soften steel.


Hey man, you misread me, we actually agree. There's one of the movies explaining the official theory that has very good footage of an office fire bending large steel beams during a test, I think it was in England or so. So yes, the temps from the jet fuel could have softened the steel (even if it has rightly been pointed out that a blue concentrated gas flame is not at all the same as a jet fuel fire).
That is simply not what I was talking about. What I was talking about, is those large puddles of molten metal that were found weeks after the facts under the rubble. Those were not made up, and definitely needed temps way beyond anything jet fuel or an office fire could accomplish in days, let alone in hardly more than an hour.
Read up some, then come back and try again.

Quote:

See this article.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000DA0E2-1E15-128A-9E1583414B7F0000 />


  :rofl2:
Quote:

Conspiricists [sic] argue that the buildings should have fallen over on their sides, but with 95 percent of each building consisting of air, they could only have collapsed straight down.
All the 9/11 conspiracy claims are this easily refuted.


I just love how that guy debunks entire books with a short article and a few sentences like the one above, entirely made out of solid common sense. His medieval logic made me think of Monty Python. Thanks for the laugh!  :heart:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Aldous]
    #5529448 - 04/18/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I may have missed it in this thread, but could you link me to an official source with eye-witness accounts of melted steel at the bottom of the wreakage? I mean a site other than places like Infowar. The only place I've heard that detail from is people on here.


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Redstorm]
    #5529532 - 04/18/06 01:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

This one has some pictures of the molten hot steel and has quite a bit written on it. I am sure you have seen this paper by now.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Redstorm]
    #5529576 - 04/18/06 01:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

From http://www.physics911.net/stevenjones.htm :
Quote:

There are several published observations of molten metal in the basements of all three buildings, WTC 1, 2 (?Twin Towers?) and 7. For example, Dr. Keith Eaton toured Ground Zero and stated in The Structural Engineer,
?They showed us many fascinating slides? [Eaton] continued, ?ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster?. (Structural Engineer, September 3, 2002, p. 6; emphasis added.)
The observation of molten metal at Ground Zero was emphasized publicly by Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for the design of the World Trade Center Towers, who reported that ?As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running.? (Williams, 2001, p. 3; emphasis added.)
Sarah Atlas was part of New Jersey's Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue and was one of the first on the scene at Ground Zero with her canine partner Anna. She reported in Penn Arts and Sciences, summer 2002,
?Nobody's going to be alive.' Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet. (Penn, 2002; emphasis added.)
Dr. Allison Geyh was one of a team of public health investigators from Johns Hopkins who visited the WTC site after 9-11. She reported in the Late Fall 2001 issue of Magazine of Johns Hopkins Public Health, "In some pockets now being uncovered they are finding molten steel.?


There are some credible sources in the quote above.

I know I've seen a few good pics of bulldozers digging up red hot and orange hot pieces of metal from the rubble weeks after, but I can't find them in the few minutes I have now (maybe in the next few days). I also saw a thermic satellite pic showing the three spots (WTC1, 2 & 7) where the metal was still red hot, they also gave estimated temps. Hope I can find it again soon.
.
.
.
.
Well, here are some, actually: http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a091601hotspots


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Darcho]
    #5530196 - 04/18/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks, you guys. I got some reading to do.


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Offlineke1n
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Redstorm]
    #5544877 - 04/22/06 06:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Phred, you're in denial man. You don't want to watch the video because you have already deemed it false.

Watch it before judging it or the ideas it proposes. There is more scientific evidence and eye-witness accounts (including firemen) than footage being played at slow speeds


--------------------



Everything that is posted, including pictures and text, are a result of fictional storytelling using images found online and/or created using the latest graphics software. I am a fictional writer who likes to explore the internet world.
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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: ke1n]
    #5544904 - 04/22/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Can you not read plain English? He is on a 56k dial-up connection. I'm not sure if you've ever been subject to such torture, but I can guarantee it would be damn near impossible to watch a 1-hr long streaming video.

If there's anything you want to argue about it, you should be able to do so without him having to see the movie.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: ke1n]
    #5546983 - 04/23/06 10:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ke1n said:
Phred, you're in denial man. You don't want to watch the video because you have already deemed it false.

Watch it before judging it or the ideas it proposes. There is more scientific evidence and eye-witness accounts (including firemen) than footage being played at slow speeds




Let's recap what has been said in this thread several times....

1. Phred lives in a third world country with spotty electricity and telephone service.
2. Phred has an old computer.
3. Phred has a dial-up connection.

That's why Phred is unable to watch video off of the internet.


Edited by RandalFlagg (04/23/06 10:05 AM)


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Offlinetwiggedoubt
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5555722 - 04/25/06 06:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It doesn't really matter who did it, only a few people know for sure and even if it was the government, unless the news reported it noone would believe it. People thought Saddam had something to do with it, at least the people that think the government did it have some theories to back up their ideas. Almost just as many troops in Iraq died as in the WTC, and many more arabs, its obvious our administration has little care for human lives, so why would it be hard to believe that they would blow up the WTC for profit.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5555876 - 04/25/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

twiggedoubt said:
so why would it be hard to believe that they would blow up the WTC for profit.




It's not hard to believe. I just have yet to see any proof whatsoever.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5557933 - 04/26/06 09:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What kind of proof did you see for the official story?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Aldous]
    #5558682 - 04/26/06 01:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Aldous said:
What kind of proof did you see for the official story?




A thorough congressional investigation. Absolutely no experts with any credibility refuting the official story. Every 9/11 conspiracy theory I have seen so far has not stood up to scrutiny.


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