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OfflineAldous
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: fredyjenkins]
    #5498841 - 04/10/06 04:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, that would be very credible, especially since everyone, even the Bush administration, agreed Iraq had no operational nukes.

Shooting oneself in the foot had the advantage of conveniently destroying a few rotten spots (google "WTC7" and "tenants"). Besides, even before the attacks, in the opinion of the Bush mob, "'a new Pearl Harbor" was the best way to speed up the evolution they desired. How would they have passed the Patriot Act following a (very) foreign event? It's not all about foreign policy, there are domestic aspects as well.
And finally, do you really think those people give a damn as long as they stand to profit?

My question goes out to you as well: what allows you to discard those dozens of consistent witness accounts?


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Aldous]
    #5499054 - 04/10/06 07:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

http://www.silversteinproperties.com/worldtrade.htm

Silverstein has to rebuild the trade center towers.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Aldous]
    #5502347 - 04/11/06 03:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Aldous said:
Why do you remain completely deaf to the mass of eyewitness accounts, recorded on tape and included in several movies (I know, you've got a steam-driven modem, but that's no excuse), that consistently mention numerous heavy secondary explosions? Those accounts are from anonymous eyewitnesses, from TV reporters sent in live, from firefighters (I think they know what they're talking about), etc. Lots and lots of people who were there give very specific and consistent details of explosions that seem to match controlled demolition (bright flashes, crackling detonations, all just before collapses). Those are interesting accounts, because they were made on the spot, when no official version was available to influence, warp or censor said accounts. It's not because they haven't been rebroadcast as often as the Twin Towers' collapses (did you notice the near absence of WTC7 rebroadcasts?) that they no more exist or aren't worth looking at.

So, when will you acknowledge those eyewitness accounts?




I'd like this to be answered as well...


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Invisibletak
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: exclusive58]
    #5502357 - 04/11/06 03:48 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It is hard for some people to think for themselves. They need to let the box in their living room do it for them.


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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: tak]
    #5503549 - 04/11/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well, Phred, where are you when we need you?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Aldous]
    #5507123 - 04/12/06 08:57 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Aldous asks:

Quote:

But then, why do you remain completely deaf to the mass of eyewitness accounts, recorded on tape and included in several movies (I know, you've got a steam-driven modem, but that's no excuse), that consistently mention numerous heavy secondary explosions?




In a fire the size of the WTC fires it would be absolutely astonishing if no one reported any explosions. What were those explosions? Who knows? Could have been anything from buckets of cleaning solvent to water coolers blowing up. News flash for you -- a LOT of things will explode if set in the middle of a lake of burning jet fuel.




Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Aldous]
    #5507158 - 04/12/06 09:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Aldous replies:

Quote:

The planes could have been guided by beacons, so maybe they knew exactly where they would impact.




The planes were guided by "beacons"? Umm... just who do you think was piloting the airplanes anyway?

Quote:

But anyhow, no-one can deny that a plane impact represents a substantial burden on the structural integrity of a building.




Well, the tinfoil beanie crowd does. At least they deny it is significant enough to cause (in conjunction with a massive and widespread high intensity fire) the towers to collapse without the assistance of planted explosives.

Quote:

If they blew up the central core at ground level...




But they didn't blow up the central core at ground level. Mother of god, man, did you not watch the coverage on television the first few days? Or look at the still photos later available all over the web?





Phred


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Phred]
    #5507940 - 04/12/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
In a fire the size of the WTC fires it would be absolutely astonishing if no one reported any explosions. What were those explosions? Who knows? Could have been anything from buckets of cleaning solvent to water coolers blowing up. News flash for you -- a LOT of things will explode if set in the middle of a lake of burning jet fuel.


1. We're talking big time explosions here, not just little buckets of solvent. Explosions that shake the ground, that are heard outside the buildings above the general noise of panic and evacuation. Listen to those reports again and try to be honest about it.

2. Where was the lake of burning jet fuel underneath the impact points? Yes, there are reports of an initial cascade down the elevator shafts, but where was the sea of fire after that? ALL of the footage shows heavy smoke from the impact points UPwards. MOST of those reports of heavy explosions are from between ground level and impact points, where there was NO fire worth mentioning. So were those explosions spontaneous? You can't just discard those witness accounts because they don't match your beliefs.

Really, try again.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Phred]
    #5508220 - 04/12/06 01:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The planes were guided by "beacons"? Umm... just who do you think was piloting the airplanes anyway?


I don't know. Do you? Have you seen the man in the cockpit? Why would you be allowed to speculate while I wouldn't be?

Quote:

Well, the tinfoil beanie crowd does. At least they deny it is significant enough to cause (in conjunction with a massive and widespread high intensity fire) the towers to collapse without the assistance of planted explosives.


We agree on that. The skeptics don't think it was significant enough to allow for that kind of collapse, i.e. that early, that straight, that thorough and complete.

Quote:

But they didn't blow up the central core at ground level. Mother of god, man, did you not watch the coverage on television the first few days? Or look at the still photos later available all over the web?


What do you mean? It's perfectly possible to blow up the central core at ground level or even below with a hardly visible explosion. Have you ever watched videos of controlled demolitions?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Aldous]
    #5508284 - 04/12/06 02:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I say again, in a fire of that magnitude there are going to be explosions going off all over the place. Are you trying to say these explosions were pre-planted bombs going off before they were supposed to?

I also say again, the buildings did NOT collapse from the bottom up. They collapsed from the impact points downwards. Therefore if you are going to argue the collapse was assisted by preplanted explosives, you have to give a plausible explanation as to how these preplanted explosives were placed precisely at or within one or two floors of the impact points. Impact points that were different for each tower, remember -- the plane hit higher up on one tower than the other.

How could ANY pilot -- let alone a "pilot" who had never FLOWN an actual airliner before, but had only taken lessons at a flight school -- target the crash precisely within a floor of the preplanted explosives? Even IF he knew his target was say the 82nd floor on one tower and the 94th floor on the other, just how the hell is he supposed to COUNT unmarked floors from the outside of the building while approaching at over two hundred miles an hour, then make the exceedingly fine corrections required to hit that floor?

Your entire premise is absurd on the face of it. The idea is that somehow the government arranged this whole thing for some reason. And that the government decided that it wouldn't be sufficient to just crash the planes into the buildings, killing hundreds and hundreds of people in the impact. No.... in order to make it serious enough for them to pass the Patriot Act and get the UN to authorize invading Afghanistan, the towers had to actually collapse. This is utter nonsense. Even if the towers had NOT collapsed, the Patriot Act would have been passed and Afghanistan would have been invaded.

Then let's look at what would have been required to pull this off --

1 -- Recruit twenty or so Jihadis willing to co-operate with the Great Satan.

2 -- Indetectably plant sufficient explosives in EACH tower to ensure their collapse. Some of the busiest office buildings in the world.

3 -- Find a foolproof method of getting the jihadis to impact the planes within a floor or two of the planted explosives -- on differing floors for each tower.

Check the voice recordings from flight 93. The hijackers spoke in Arabic. Therefore it is logical to presume the hijackers of the two WTC planes also spoke Arabic. Seeing as how there are few people in the world who both speak Arabic and are willing to commit suicide in groups other than Jihadis, then yes, I do know who was in the cockpits -- freaking muslim Jihadis.

So here's yet another question for you to answer -- just how the hell was the US government able to procure the co-operation of people who aren't famous for following the directions of minions of the Great Satan?

Look, every couple of weeks for almost five years now, someone opens yet another thread referencing yet another moonbat website or moonbat video. Often we have up to a dozen different threads all referring to the SAME video.

None of the "evidence" presented ever holds up to scrutiny. It's all the same recycled, unsupported, unscientific and illogical speculations.

For some reason that escapes me (apart from attributing this delusion to a near-pathological hatred of Bush) these moonbats are unable to accept the mountains of evidence that what happened that day wasn't some insanely complex and convoluted plot carefully timed so that all the many actors and subplots meshed perfectly to present some believable illusion that four hijacked planes crashed into buildings (and one field), but exactly what it appeared to be -- four planes hijacked by religious nutbars did an awesome amount of damage. It's just that simple. The damage would still have been immense and the loss of life almost as high if the two towers hadn't collapsed but had remained standing. And the "excuse" for the US government to retaliate against the perpetrators would have been every bit as strong had the towers remained standing.

You are of course free to continue to believe whatever loony theory comes down the road. That is your right. Hell, there are still a BUNCH of people who insist fourteen US citizens never walked on the moon, either.

But the reason I (and all rational people) reject this moonbat gibberish isn't because we are close-minded or brainwashed by Bush, it's because we are able to reason and understand logic. Did some weird things happen on that day? Of course. Will every weird report from ear witnesses and eye witnesses ever be explained? Nope. That doesn't change the fact that a bunch of religious nutbars crashed planes into buildings. That's it, that's all.





Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Aldous]
    #5508378 - 04/12/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If there were explosive that were powerful enough to bring down the towers, this would show up in some sort of seismograph machine. There has to some sort of this kind of data somewhere.


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Redstorm]
    #5508741 - 04/12/06 04:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

To my friend Phred

"say again, in a fire of that magnitude there are going to be explosions going off all over the place. Are you trying to say these explosions were pre-planted bombs going off before they were supposed to? "
=I'm not sure but to say a small explosion such as a water cooler can create a huge "EXPLOSION" as said by many eye-witness acounts. But how do you explain the readings on the sesmographs that recorded the explosion. When the truck bombs went off in the basement floor of the world trade center back in 1991?(I think), nothing was recorded. Now, how do you explain a plane hitting the building 80 stories in the air causeing a seismograph to record ground vibrations from miles away. An no, this was not because of the towers hitting the floor, it was when the planes hit.

I also say again, the buildings did NOT collapse from the bottom up. They collapsed from the impact points downwards. Therefore if you are going to argue the collapse was assisted by preplanted explosives, you have to give a plausible explanation as to how these preplanted explosives were placed precisely at or within one or two floors of the impact points. Impact points that were different for each tower, remember -- the plane hit higher up on one tower than the other."

-as what was said before, have you ever seen a controled explosion? Check one out, eeeerily similar.

And by the way phred, have you watched the documentary yet? If not please stop posting on this thread which is about it.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5508773 - 04/12/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Exactly Redstorm.

And by the way Phred, how do you explain the puddles of still molten steel at the bottom on the rubble found days after the collapeses. It has been said many times by professors and others with credentials, such as a spokesman for the company which tested the steel used in the world trade centers, that the steel used would withstand at least 3000 degrees of heat (AT LEAST, it was tested at this temperature for hours and it passed). So how do you explain jet fuel which burns at around 2000 degrees causing the steel to melt after only burning for about 1 hour?


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5508839 - 04/12/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not sure but to say a small explosion such as a water cooler can create a huge "EXPLOSION" as said by many eye-witness acounts.




Define "huge", please. Then show that every person in the world uses the same word to describe exactly the same magnitude -- especially people who had just been through the most emotionally searing experiences in their entire lives.

I have no doubt there were explosions of many different sizes. Do you have any idea how big an explosion is made when a five gallon drum of paint or cleaning fluid explodes? In a confined space?

Quote:

Now, how do you explain a plane hitting the building 80 stories in the air causeing a seismograph to record ground vibrations from miles away. An no, this was not because of the towers hitting the floor, it was when the planes hit.




So you're saying the seismographs show activity at the precise moments the planes hit? Think it through, my friend David. If the seismographs didn't record the impact of the planes, then what were they recording? If you're going to say, "Why, the preset demolition charges, of course," then what is your answer to the following questions --

1) If the charges went off at the moment of impact, why didn't the towers fall right then?

2) If the charges went off at the moment of impact, what were all the rest of these "huge explosions" reported by ear witnesses AFTER the planes hit?

Quote:

as what was said before, have you ever seen a controled explosion?




In person? Nope. Have you? In films and on TV? Sure. Quite a few. And I've NEVER seen one in which the building collapsed from the top down. They're not "eerily similar" in the slightest.

Quote:

And by the way phred, have you watched the documentary yet? If not please stop posting on this thread which is about it.




There is nothing argued in that video that hasn't been argued countless times vefore in other articles and videos. Nothing new at all. If there was, someone would have pointed it out. From every description given of this video so far it is just another re-mix of the same half-assed speculation, just edited in a slightly different manner. No new evidence, no new arguments.

This may all be shiny new to you. It isn't new to the rest of us. Same old bollocks we've been hearing for over four years.



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5508881 - 04/12/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And by the way Phred, how do you explain the puddles of still molten steel at the bottom on the rubble found days after the collapeses.




That has been asked and answered many times in this forum. Most scientists say it was the energy released by the collapse that heated the already hot steel past the melting point.

Your basic grasp of science is weak indeed. An EXPLOSION doesn't turn girders into puddles of steel... the explosion blasts them apart. The explosion lasts a fraction of a second, with the heat of the explosion radiating outward in a sphere at incredible velocity. The time the girder (at the center of the explosion) is exposed to heat is a small fraction of a second indeed.




Phred


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Phred]
    #5508952 - 04/12/06 04:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

so you obviously haven't seen the video, please watch it and critique it for me, or get off the thread.

"Define "huge", please. Then show that every person in the world uses the same word to describe exactly the same magnitude -- especially people who had just been through the most emotionally searing experiences in their entire lives."
- huge = a maintnace worker in the basement thinking the generator blew up a few floors BELOW HIM. then subsequently heard the explosion above him.

So what exactly is your explanation for the trade towers falling? How do all the towers fall perfectly straight down into piles?
No skyscraper has ever colapsed before those two, followed by tower 7 which makes the first three building collapses from fire in history. A B52 Bomber crashes into the empire state building in 1942. Why doesn't it fall? and if you are going to argue that a B52 is smaller than a comercial plane here is a picture.http://images.military.com/Data/EQG/b52-6.jpg



"Your basic grasp of science is weak indeed. An EXPLOSION doesn't turn girders into puddles of steel... the explosion blasts them apart. The explosion lasts a fraction of a second, with the heat of the explosion radiating outward in a sphere at incredible velocity. The time the girder (at the center of the explosion) is exposed to heat is a small fraction of a second indeed. "
-if you are going to argue this then why didn't the buildings colapse immediatly?


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5508962 - 04/12/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

by the way, there is a reason why everyone on the board is saying this is the best documentary out there on the subject. If you are going to argue everything so much, can you please atleast watch it so you can see both sides of the arguement.

And also, in the video they show planned building colapses and the colapses of 9/11 and saying that they are not similar in the slightest is a complete joke, they look almost identicle.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5509504 - 04/12/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

by the way, there is a reason why everyone on the board is saying this is the best documentary out there on the subject. If you are going to argue everything so much, can you please atleast watch it so you can see both sides of the arguement.




Not everyone on the board is saying that. Even if they were, the best moonbattery in the world is nonetheless still nothing more than moonbattery.

I don't know how to make it any plainer to you -- I am not going to waste hours and hours of my time watching something in ten second spurts followed by eighty second pauses for buffering followed by another ten seconds of content nas infinitum. Especially when the stupid thing starts off with YET ANOTHER rehash of Operation Northwoods -- a scenario put together over four decades ago at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis Cold War hysteria and was never acted upon. That has nothing whatsoever to do with what caused the towers to collapse after the airliners hit them.

As for your attempt to brush off my questions because I haven't seen the video, why are you having such a hard time grasping the fact that it doesn't make a speck of difference if the same loony and uninformed speculations are presented as a video or a Michael Moore movie or an essay or a book or in an online journal? As you have heard already from earlier contributors to this thread, this video has been out for a long, LONG time and there are already well over a dozen threads in this forum discussing it. There is nothing -- I repeat NOTHING -- substantive in this video that has not already been hammered out dozens of times in this forum and elsewhere. It covers the same old ground --

-- governments can sometimes plan to do bad things, therefore the Bush government must have done a bad thing on September 11.

-- The Empire State building didn't fall when a much smaller and lighter airplane travelling at a much lower speed carrying much less fuel crashed into it, therefore the twin towers couldn't have fallen either absent planted demolition charges. And yes, David, it was a B-25 that hit the Empire State building, not a B-52. There is a WORLD of difference between the two.

-- some controlled demolitions appear to bear some visual similarities to the way the towers collapsed, therefore the towers must have collapsed through the same means.

etc, etc, etc. Yawn.

I don't need to have seen the video to ask the questions I have asked in this thread. I can't help but note some of them remain unanswered. I find it more than a little amusing to be accused repeatedly of being "close-minded" and "brainwashed" for raising these questions, while the ones making the accusations are too ignorant or close-minded or brainwashed to answer them adequately. Maybe that has to do with the fact that I needn't rely on a video to provide all my talking points for me, and if it isn't covered by the video I am then stumped.

As I said before, I couldn't care less if you want to believe the tinfoil beanie brigade's tripe. Doesn't affect my life in the slightest. If it makes you happy to believe real life is a combination of The Matrix and a Robert Ludlum novel, be my guest. Knock yourself out. Just don't expect anyone with the capacity for rational thought who has spent as much time looking into this as I have to buy it.




Phred


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Phred]
    #5509671 - 04/12/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but it has been said that the architect who designed the World Trade Center Twin Towers specifically designed them to withstand multiple jetliner impacts.


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Loose Change video 9/11 [Re: Phred]
    #5509689 - 04/12/06 08:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

alright I respect your standpoint and if you feel that it is the truth that is fine, but don't call me closeminded when you have no idea what I have researched and learned about the subject. At least I am willing to look at everyone available. You are the one posting about a video you have not even seen. Now don't tell me its all the same shit because you havent seen it.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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