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Cubenisseur
Mad Props


Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 1,392
Loc: Indian Land
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: Tom_Cruise]
#5480171 - 04/04/06 06:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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WAY off topic....Leary Fan, what on earth is that strain of PURPLE cannabis?
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: fireworks_god]
#5480480 - 04/04/06 08:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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You dont have to spend one red cent to learn about Scientology. The tenets and beliefs are open to anyone who asks.
I had this big long post typed up, and then decided against posting it for a few reasons..... 1) this isnt a thread about Scientology. 2) There have been multiple threads thus far with hundreds of pages of posts of discussion regarding this. 3) It is futile to argue against someone who is not only aware of their own bias to the subject, but doesnt care nor wish to form an unbiased opinion on the subject. 4) You dont wish to debate the actual religion, and only wish to argue ad hominems, not the actual beliefs. If someone was arguing about the existence or nonexistence of God, would it help your argument to bring up Conquistadors and the Inquisition?
If you are truly interested in knowing anything about this subject (and Im sure you arent, unless it deals with juicy second hand gossip from paraphrased quotes), you can PM me, or do a search for all the threads about it, because I have written pages upon pages about it... hopefully they have been properly archived.
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rickpsfuckyou
listening to Mozzy


Registered: 11/26/05
Posts: 1,860
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5480600 - 04/04/06 08:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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joseph smith founder of the church of lds, was a freemason and also was killed by freemasons for incorporating their pagan sunworshipping babylonian/egyptian mystery school pre-christian rituals, into the rituals of the morman church. Occultic and Masonic Influence in Early Mormonism Copyright ? 1996 Institute For Religious Research. All rights reserved.
The evidence of Joseph Smith's close connection to occultism and Freemasonry, and how this influenced the origin and development of the LDS Church is not well known outside of scholarly circles. This article summarizes the evidence for Joseph's personal involvement in both Freemasonry and occultism, and their influence on the Mormon religion.
Mormonism's Link to Occultism
Both Joseph Smith and his father were involved in the occult practice known as "money digging." This involved special rituals and ceremonies which were performed for the purpose of obtaining buried treasure thought to be guarded by evil spirits. Accounts of money digging during the late 1700s and early 1800s are documented in Alan Taylor's article "Treasure Seeking in the American Northeast, 1780-1830", published in American Quarterly, 38 [Spring 1986], pp. 6-34. This article specifically mentions Joseph Smith, Sr., and Jr., on pages 10-12, giving examples of their money digging activities. LDS seminary teacher Grant Palmer also documents the Smith family's occult beliefs and practices, as well as those of their close associates, in his book An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, (SLC, Signature Books, 2002, pp. 175-195).
Joseph's Involvement in Occultism. Joseph Smith, Jr.'s role in the quest for treasure was especially important since he had a seer stone. Joseph would place this small, special rock in his hat then pull the hat up to his face to block out all light. By doing this he claimed he could see supernaturally, and would help those who were digging by locating the place where the treasure was buried and observing the spirits that were guarding it. Joseph Jr., himself admitted to being a money digger, though he said it was never very profitable for him (History of the Church, V. 3, p. 29). He and his father's money digging continued until at least 1826. On March 20th of that year Joseph was arrested, brought before a judge, and charged with being a "glass-looker" and a disorderly person. The laws at that time had what was known as the "Vagrant Act." It defined a disorderly person as one who pretended to have skill in the areas of palmistry, telling fortunes or discovering where lost goods might be found. According to court records Justice Neely determined that Joseph was guilty, though no penalty was administered, quite possibly because this was a first offense (Inventing Mormonism, Marquardt and Walters, SLC: Signature Books, 1994, pp. 74-75).
Occultism and the Start of Mormonism. Shortly after this Joseph discontinued money digging but kept his seer stone. It was with the seer stone that he claimed to both find the plates and later produce the Book of Mormon. This was known by early converts but has since been replaced with later accounts of an angelic visitor. This transition was aided by downplaying the fact that Moroni was a dead Indian warrior, and by referring to him as an angel. Former BYU professor and historian D. Michael Quinn writes:
During this period from 1827 to 1830, Joseph Smith abandoned the company of his former money-digging associates, but continued to use for religious purposes the brown seer stone he had previously employed in the treasure quest. His most intensive and productive use of the seer stone was in the translation of the Book of Mormon. But he also dictated several revelations to his associates through the stone (Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, D. Michael Quinn, Signature Books, SLC, 1987, p. 143).
This fact is supported by LDS author Richard S. Van Wagoner who found,
This stone, still retained by the First Presidency of the LDS Church, was the vehicle through which the golden plates were discovered and the medium through which their interpretation came (Sidney Rigdon: A Portrait of Religious Excess, Signature Books, SLC, 1994, p. 57).
Thus we see that historians have documented a continuity between Joseph's early occultic practices and the origins of Mormonism. This link extends to the development of the LDS Temple ceremony.
Occultic Parallels in the LDS Temple Ceremony. Historian D. Michael Quinn has done extensive research on rites and ancient mysteries related to occultism. He states,
By drawing only on authorized descriptions of the endowment by LDS leaders, I believe it is possible to see within historical context how the Mormon endowment reflected the ancient and occult mysteries far closer than Freemasonry (Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, p. 186).
Quinn then outlines the following ten essential characteristics common to both occult rituals and the Mormon Temple ceremonies:
* They are revealed by God from the beginning, but distorted through apostasy. * They place an emphasis on the worthiness of initiates. * They include washings and anointings, a new name and garments * They emphasize vows of non-disclosure. * There are both "lesser" and "greater" rituals. * They feature presentation of the ritual through drama. * They contain an oath of chastity requiring strict purity and virtue of the participants. * They feature prominent use of the sun, moon and stars as key symbols. * The purpose of the ritual is to assist mortals to attain to godhood. * They employ titles and offices of prophets, priests and kings to those in leadership.
After presenting this material Quinn comments,
To be sure Masonic rituals also shared some similarities with the ancient mysteries, but these were not linked to any concept of heavenly ascent, which was fundamental to both the occult mysteries and to the Mormon endowment. Therefore, what similarities may exist between Freemasonry and Mormonism seem more appropriately to be regarded as superficial, whereas the ancient occult mysteries and the Mormon endowment manifest both philosophical and structural kinship. (Ibid., p. 190).
Mormonism and Masonry
Masonry's influence on Mormonism and Joseph Smith has been noted by a number of historians. Some of the areas impacted by Masonic lore and ritual include the Book of Mormon, Joseph's personal life, and the LDS temple ceremony.
Masonic Themes Related to the Book of Mormon. John L. Brooke in his book The Refiner's Fire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology, 1644-1844, noted the following in reference to the story of the discovery of the gold plates and the narrative structure of the Book of Mormon:
Freemasonry provides a point of entry into this very complex story. As it had been in Vermont, Masonic fraternity was a dominant feature of the cultural landscape in Joseph Smith's Ontario County. . . . The dense network of lodges and chapters helps explain the Masonic symbolism that runs through the story of the discovery of the Golden Plates. Most obviously, the story of their discovery in a stone vault on a hilltop echoed the Enoch myth of Royal Arch Freemasonry, in which the prophet Enoch, instructed by a vision, preserved the Masonic mysteries by carving them on a golden plate that he placed in an arched stone vault marked with pillars, to be rediscovered by Solomon. In the years to come the prophet Enoch would play a central role in Smith's emerging cosmology. Smith's stories of his discoveries got more elaborate with time, and in June 1829 he promised Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and Martin Harris that they would see not only the plates but other marvelous artifacts: the Urim and Thummim attached to a priestly breastplate, the 'sword of Laban,' and 'miraculous directors.' Oliver Cowdery and Lucy Mack Smith later described three or four small pillars holding up the plates. All of these artifacts had Masonic analogues. . . . Smith's sources for these Masonic symbols were close at hand. Most obviously, Oliver Cowdery would have been a source, given that his father and brother were Royal Arch initiates; one Palmyra resident remembered Oliver Cowdery as 'no church member and a Mason.' . . . A comment by Lucy Mack Smith in her manuscript written in the 1840s, protesting that the family did not abandon all household labor to try 'to win the faculty of Abrac, drawing magic circles, or sooth-saying,' suggests a familiarity with Masonic manuals: the 'faculty of Abrac' was among the supposed Masonic mysteries (Refiner's Fire, Cambridge University Press, 1994, pp. 157-158).
However, it wasn't until later in life that Joseph's involvement became more personal.
Joseph's Personal Involvement in Freemasonry. Mormon Apostle John A. Widtsoe stated:
Many of the Saints were Masons, such as Joseph's brother Hyrum, Heber C. Kimball, Elijah Fordham, Newel K. Whitney, James Adams, and John C. Bennett. . . . With the acquiescence of the Prophet, members of the Church already Masons petitioned the Grand Master of Illinois for permission to set up a lodge in Nauvoo. . . . it was March 15, 1842, before authority was given to set up a lodge in Nauvoo and to induct new members. Joseph Smith became a member (Evidences and Reconciliations, 1 volume, pp. 357-358).
Joseph Smith admitted to being a Mason in his History of the Church, volume 4, page 551. Under the date of March 15, 1842 it reads: "In the evening I received the first degree in Free Masonry in the Nauvoo Lodge, assembled in my general business office." The record for the next day reads, "I was with the Masonic Lodge and rose to the sublime degree" (page 552).
How did Joseph's Masonic membership affect the development of the Mormon Church? The most significant area appears to be in the development of the Mormon temple ceremonies. As noted above, Joseph became a Mason on March 15, 1842 and "rose to the sublime degree" the following day. Less than two months later, on May 4, 1842, Joseph introduced the temple endowment ceremony (History of the Church, Vol. 5, pp. 1-2).
Masonry and Mormon Temple Ceremonies. The pervasive influence of Freemasonry in Mormon Temples is expressed well by LDS historian Dr. Reed Durham. Dr. Durham, who has served as president of the Mormon History Association, provides a number of interesting parallels between the two. He gives these as evidence for Masonry's clear influence on Mormonism.
I am convinced that in the study of Masonry lies a pivotal key to further understanding Joseph Smith and the Church. . . . Masonry in the Church had its origin prior to the time Joseph Smith became a Mason. . . . It commenced in Joseph's home when his older brother became a Mason. Hyrum received the first three degrees of Masonry in Mount Moriah Lodge No. 112 of Palmyra, New York, at about the same time that Joseph was being initiated into the presence of God . . The many parallels found between early Mormonism and the Masonry of that day are substantial. . .
I have attempted thus far to demonstrate that Masonic influences upon Joseph in the early Church history, preceding his formal membership in Masonry, were significant. However, these same Masonic influences exerted a more dominant character as reflected in the further expansion of the Church subsequent to the Prophet's Masonic membership. In fact, I believe that there are few significant developments in the Church, that occurred after March 15 1842, which did not have some Masonic interdependence. Let me comment on a few of these developments. There is absolutely no question in my mind that the Mormon ceremony which came to be known as the Endowment, introduced by Joseph Smith to Mormon Masons, had an immediate inspiration from Masonry. This is not to suggest that no other source of inspiration could have been involved, but the similarities between the two ceremonies are so apparent and overwhelming that some dependent relationship cannot be denied. They are so similar, in fact, that one writer was led to refer to the Endowment as Celestial Masonry.
It is also obvious that the Nauvoo Temple architecture was in part, at least, Masonically influenced. Indeed, it appears that there was an intentional attempt to utilize Masonic symbols and motifs. . . .
Another development in the Nauvoo Church, which has not been so obviously considered as Masonically inspired, was the establishment of the Female Relief Society. This organization was the Prophet's intentional attempt to expand Masonry to include the women of the Church. That the Relief Society was organized in the Masonic Lodge room, and only one day after Masonry was given to the men, was not happenstance. . . . included in the actual vocabulary of Joseph Smith's counsel and instructions to the sisters were such words as: ancient orders, examinations, degrees, candidates, secrets, lodges, rules, signs, tokens, order of the priesthood, and keys; all indicating that the Society's orientation possessed Masonic overtones.
. . . . I suggest that enough evidence presently exists to declare that the entire institution of the political kingdom of God, including the Council of Fifty, the living constitution, the proposed flag of the kingdom, and the anointing and coronation of the king, had its genesis in connection with Masonic thoughts and ceremonies. . . . it appears that the Prophet first embraced Masonry, and, then in the process, he modified, expanded, amplified, or glorified it. . . . The Prophet believed that his mission was to restore all truth, and then to unify and weld it all together into one. This truth was referred to as 'the Mysteries,' and these Mysteries were inseparably connected with the Priesthood. . . . Can anyone deny that Masonic influence on Joseph Smith and the Church, either before or after his personal Masonic membership? The evidence demands comments. . .
There are many questions which still demand the answers. . . . if we, as Mormon historians, respond to these questions and myriads like them relative to Masonry in an ostrich-like fashion, with our heads buried in the traditional sand, then I submit: there never will be 'any help for the widow's son' (Mormon Miscellaneous, October 1975, pp. 11-16, as cited in Changing World of Mormonism, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, 1981, pp. 546-547).
These statements demonstrate that much of the religious ritual within Mormonism finds its origin in both occultism and Freemasonry. It is not surprising that there is an overlap between occultism and Freemasonry within Mormonism since Masonry itself draws from occult lore and ritual. What becomes obvious is that Joseph neglected the Bible's clear prohibition regarding occult involvement. This is found in Deuteronomy 18:9-12 which states in part,
. . . thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shalt not be found among you any one that . . . useth divination, or is an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits [demons], or a wizard, or a necromancer [one who communicates with the dead]. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD.
? Joel B. Groat
The following resources contain a more extensive treatment of Joseph Smith's magical and occultic practices and worldview:
John L. Brooke, The Refiner's Fire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology, 1644-1844, Cambridge University Press, NY, 1994, 421 pages. This non-Mormon author is an associate professor in the Department of History at Tufts University.
Grant H. Palmer, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, (Signature Books, SLC, 2002, 281 pages). Palmer is an LDS seminary teacher and three-time director of LDS Institutes of Religion in California and Utah.
D. Michael Quinn, Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, Signature Books, SLC, revised and enlarged edition 1998, 646 pages. This work is comprehensive and thoroughly documented. The author is a former BYU professor and one of the most respected historians of Mormonism.
Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism, Magic and Masonry, Utah Lighthouse Ministry, SLC, 1983, 97 pages. This former Mormon husband and wife research/publishing team are well-known for their carefully documented critiques of Mormonism.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: rickpsfuckyou]
#5480749 - 04/04/06 09:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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How pathetic.... cant even debate it yourself, probably didnt even read it yourself..... why expect anyone else to read it?
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darkfly
LysergicExperimenter

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 1,169
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5480910 - 04/04/06 10:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Debate what? He just posted a well cited article with references, I would think you are the one who need to debate it.
-------------------- Everything Is Blue In This World. The Deepest Shade Of Mushroom Blue.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: darkfly]
#5480987 - 04/04/06 10:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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so, if in a drug debate, I cited multiple pages of DEA and Anti-drug quotes (obviously biased sources) halfway through the debate, having said nothing so far, and not even commenting after I posted it... that would be ok in a debate?
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5481002 - 04/04/06 10:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Its one thing to cite a source, or quote a person, along with your argument, but hiding behind another persons thoughts/debate without putting forth any opinion or spin to the argument is poor debate.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5481019 - 04/04/06 10:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said: You dont have to spend one red cent to learn about Scientology. The tenets and beliefs are open to anyone who asks.
Really? Whom does one have to ask? Phone number, please?
Quote:
I had this big long post typed up, and then decided against posting it for a few reasons.....
I doubt it was bigger than your list of excuses for not posting it, first and foremost.
Quote:
1) this isnt a thread about Scientology.
Hhhm.... doesn't seem that way to me. Why would you engage in debate to the point where you actually have to substantiate something to back up your claims, and then back out?
Quote:
2) There have been multiple threads thus far with hundreds of pages of posts of discussion regarding this.
Then cite these threads to back up your claims.
Quote:
3) It is futile to argue against someone who is not only aware of their own bias to the subject, but doesnt care nor wish to form an unbiased opinion on the subject.
You have absolutely no manner in which to determine if one is biased. The simple fact that one has come to different conclusions than the ones that you produce excuses to not discuss past a certain point does not mean that one is biased.
Quote:
4) You dont wish to debate the actual religion, and only wish to argue ad hominems, not the actual beliefs. If someone was arguing about the existence or nonexistence of God, would it help your argument to bring up Conquistadors and the Inquisition?
Um, yeah, the entire point is that the beliefs are unfounded. I proposed that they were merely produced in the context of a scam, and that they have no merit beyond that. You have a different opinion, but spend more time listing reasons why you won't state that opinion than actually providing for a discussion.
What substantiation does the belief that all of our negative emotions and thoughts are caused by thetans which can be dispelled with the use of an E-meter in an auditing which costs thousands of dollars have?
Quote:
If you are truly interested in knowing anything about this subject (and Im sure you arent, unless it deals with juicy second hand gossip from paraphrased quotes), you can PM me, or do a search for all the threads about it, because I have written pages upon pages about it... hopefully they have been properly archived.
Um, yeah, it is entirely possible to be truly interested in knowing something about a subject without taking into consideration you and your works as a source, especially when you make lazy declarations pertaining to the subject, and waste more time listing excuses for why you will not discuss the subject than a quick search of one's username and posting a link or two could ever consume.
I sincerely doubt that anyone who would engage in such behavior is truly interested in being a source for such information. All I have heard is "you have to only consider the belief itself, your sources of information on the subject are biased and refuted, i am a source of information on the subject, here is a ton of reasons why i will not act as a source and provide this information in a discussion of the subject within the thread that I initially engaged in discussion of the subject". 
If someone took and made a sham religion based on Star Trek in order to fleece people, I do not think it would be worth anyone's time to consider the beliefs that are used in the scam on their own. Why would it be any different with a bunch of beliefs that are never produced for discussion when the oppurtunity arises for them to be presented? 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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satori85
Stranger

Registered: 03/08/06
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5481035 - 04/04/06 10:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Both sides of my family are mormons (now LDS), going back generations. My parents decided at 23 it was silly. They teach that the first men and women actualy came from america, that indians are burnt israelites who betrayed jesus (jesus was actualy born in america suposedly), they teach you how to "overcome" masturbation. You have to pay 10% of your yearly income (befor taxes) to become a member and marry in the temple (cult). There are huge lists of crazy things that are now known to be untrue, just google it lol. Its very enteresting how a majority of christians themselfs reject mormons (calling them non christian). Yet mormons say they are christian. I have been to salt lake city enough, and churches enough to know the depths of the blindness. I normaly stick up for religions but Mormanism (current day LDS) is one cult i have a hard time even wrapping my mind around.
It is nothing like scientology. Mormanism is silly, but scientology is scary as hell because it is blatantly made up by a science fiction author.
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rickpsfuckyou
listening to Mozzy


Registered: 11/26/05
Posts: 1,860
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5481047 - 04/04/06 10:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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it is a known historical fact joseph smith was killed by a masonic mob for the reasons in the article.
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Temptress
Butterfly


Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Texas - where else?
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: rickpsfuckyou]
#5481096 - 04/04/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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not to mention that the mormons slaughtered over a hundred pioneers with the blessing of their leader but not the blessing of christ in order to send a message to the feds. very loveing indeed.
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: fireworks_god]
#5481115 - 04/04/06 11:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
psilocyberin said: You dont have to spend one red cent to learn about Scientology. The tenets and beliefs are open to anyone who asks.
Really? Whom does one have to ask? Phone number, please?
you can ask me. I never said I wouldnt answer your questions pertaining to their beliefs. I am a reliable source, being that I have practiced, and studied Scientology, as well as my mother being OT7.
Quote:
1) this isnt a thread about Scientology.
Hhhm.... doesn't seem that way to me. Why would you engage in debate to the point where you actually have to substantiate something to back up your claims, and then back out?
didnt my entire list explain that? I think you have your cause and effect backwards.
Quote:
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2) There have been multiple threads thus far with hundreds of pages of posts of discussion regarding this.
Then cite these threads to back up your claims.
I will, once I get home from work... or if I am too tired, tomorrow.
Quote:
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3) It is futile to argue against someone who is not only aware of their own bias to the subject, but doesnt care nor wish to form an unbiased opinion on the subject.
You have absolutely no manner in which to determine if one is biased. The simple fact that one has come to different conclusions than the ones that you produce excuses to not discuss past a certain point does not mean that one is biased.
Ah, so what do you call someone who openly admits to not having access (which is false) to information from the church itself, yet bases all of their opinion on the subject through sources whose only agenda is a false propaganda campaign.
Quote:
Quote:
4) You dont wish to debate the actual religion, and only wish to argue ad hominems, not the actual beliefs. If someone was arguing about the existence or nonexistence of God, would it help your argument to bring up Conquistadors and the Inquisition?
Um, yeah, the entire point is that the beliefs are unfounded. I proposed that they were merely produced in the context of a scam, and that they have no merit beyond that. You have a different opinion, but spend more time listing reasons why you won't state that opinion than actually providing for a discussion.
So, listing legal actions against the founder of the religion proves the beliefs of the church to be unfounded or ridiculous? come off it, you know you were playing the ad hominem card, and im willing to bet that you cant list one accurate fact about the beliefs of Scientologist.
.... I hate to do this, but I have to close up work here, will continue my reply in a half hour probably.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: fireworks_god]
#5481315 - 04/05/06 12:15 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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OK, first on the long list of things to cover in this post is links to other exhaustingly long threads which cover every bit of what has been discussed so far regarding Scientology....
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4333726/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1 TOM CRUISE IS DA MAN thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post3700344 Meet Satan thread
Those are the two really big ones, and if you read them you will see that all of your questions have been asked and answered thoroughly by me.
If you want some more, I think there are one or two more, which arent as long or in depth, and a few more which I never even saw or debated on.
Quote:
fireworks_god said: What substantiation does the belief that all of our negative emotions and thoughts are caused by thetans which can be dispelled with the use of an E-meter in an auditing which costs thousands of dollars have?
I dont think it is substantial, being that none of that is in any way true about the practices and belief of Scientology.
Quote:
Quote:
If you are truly interested in knowing anything about this subject (and Im sure you arent, unless it deals with juicy second hand gossip from paraphrased quotes), you can PM me, or do a search for all the threads about it, because I have written pages upon pages about it... hopefully they have been properly archived.
Um, yeah, it is entirely possible to be truly interested in knowing something about a subject without taking into consideration you and your works as a source, especially when you make lazy declarations pertaining to the subject, and waste more time listing excuses for why you will not discuss the subject than a quick search of one's username and posting a link or two could ever consume.
links provided. If you are so truly interested in reading what I have to say on the subject, being that I am (likely) the most learned on the subject on this website regarding Scientology, then the links have been provided. I would have preferred to make a different thread as to not derail this one, but too late now.
Quote:
I sincerely doubt that anyone who would engage in such behavior is truly interested in being a source for such information. All I have heard is "you have to only consider the belief itself, your sources of information on the subject are biased and refuted, i am a source of information on the subject, here is a ton of reasons why i will not act as a source and provide this information in a discussion of the subject within the thread that I initially engaged in discussion of the subject". 
oh... such behaviour... you got an ad hominem factory somewhere, because you are cranking them out with a quickness.... Misquoting me is real good debate behaviour as well. I never said I wouldnt disclose information to you regarding Scientology. in fact, I wish you would PM me, hell even ask me for my Phone Number in private and we can sit back with a highball and debate the subject til my cell phone dies....
Quote:
If someone took and made a sham religion based on Star Trek in order to fleece people, I do not think it would be worth anyone's time to consider the beliefs that are used in the scam on their own. Why would it be any different with a bunch of beliefs that are never produced for discussion when the oppurtunity arises for them to be presented? 
First of all, it is only false information and pure speculation that L. Ron Hubbard "made up" the religion. Secondly, if this Star Trek religion helped people change their lives for what they consider to be more productive, happier and better, then what does it matter if it is all a big joke? Wonder if that logic would work to stop the use of placebo to cure people?
Do you notice that both attacks on the religions discussed are based solely on ad hominems? If Einstein was a pedophile, would that discredit all his theories, as well as all the advances in technology which have come from them? If you actually do read the links I have posted, and follow the entire thing, you will understand that I am not a Scientologist, so I have no self serving agenda in this matter. You might also note that I dont agree with Scientology and its practices, and that I have no problem discussing it with anyone, as long as they are knowledgable on the subject.... oh but I forgot, you are! with all that juicy gossip disguised as credible and factual information from Xenu.net or operationclambake, which has actually yet to produce on person which has one fragment of a peice of truth or factual data regarding the beliefs and practices of Scientology. All it has propelled is an agenda of hatred through false information and outright lies.
But here is the kicker, probably the catalyst for me putting forth the time and energy of dealing with blatant ignorance of the subject at hand: What is more foolish, believing in a religion which may or may not have truth to it, or believing against a religion based on information which is verifiably false?
See, because that is what gives me a grin ear to ear: hearing the logicians spout their self-proclaimed superior intelligence over "those idiots who believe in made-up religions" (aren't they all?) while basing all of their supposed intelligent decision making on made-up data. Gotta wonder who is the more ridiculous character..... huh?
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5483261 - 04/05/06 03:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wonder if that logic would work to stop the use of placebo to cure people?
First, a placebo cannot cure anyone. Secondly, most scientific research regarding using placebos to alleviate stressful symptoms suggests it causes more long-term harm than good. It's a short route to neurosis.
Those are the two really big ones, and if you read them you will see that all of your questions have been asked and answered thoroughly by me.
Honesty, I didn't really see you answer anything. I just saw a lot of: "You're wrong.", "You're sources are lies", "You're uniformed", "You weren't really a Scientologists, you're just lieing", etc. But, I suppose its only rational to assume that a massive evil conspiracy of psychiatrists has been flooding the newspapers, magazines, and internet with reckless anti-dianetic propaganda.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (04/05/06 03:20 PM)
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Nickatina
journeyman

Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 112
Loc: Bay Area, California.
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5483512 - 04/05/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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South Park taught me all I need to know about Mormons. dumb dumb
-------------------- "Make the most of the hemp seed, Sow it everywhere" -George Washington
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5483540 - 04/05/06 04:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Honesty, I didn't really see you answer anything. I just saw a lot of: "You're wrong.", "You're sources are lies", "You're uniformed", "You weren't really a Scientologists, you're just lieing", etc. But, I suppose its only rational to assume that a massive evil conspiracy of psychiatrists has been flooding the newspapers, magazines, and internet with reckless anti-dianetic propaganda.

*wonders if a certain someone is a closet Scientologist* 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5483555 - 04/05/06 04:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Wonder if that logic would work to stop the use of placebo to cure people?
First, a placebo cannot cure anyone. Secondly, most scientific research regarding using placebos to alleviate stressful symptoms suggests it causes more long-term harm than good. It's a short route to neurosis.
um... try looking up just a few studies regarding placebo and try again to tell me that it doesnt have effect. oh look, here is one by UCLA... http://www.lorenbennett.org/placebo.htm
Quote:
%u201CPeople have known for years that if you give placebos to patients with depression or other illnesses, many of them will get better,%u201D said Dr. Andrew Leuchter, lead author and director of adult psychiatry at the UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute and Hospital. %u201CWhat this study shows, for the first time, is that people who get better on placebo have a change in brain function, just as surely as people who get better on medication. We now know that placebo is, very definitely, an active treatment condition.%u201D
Those are the two really big ones, and if you read them you will see that all of your questions have been asked and answered thoroughly by me.
Honesty, I didn't really see you answer anything. I just saw a lot of: "You're wrong.", "You're sources are lies", "You're uniformed", "You weren't really a Scientologists, you're just lieing", etc. But, I suppose its only rational to assume that a massive evil conspiracy of psychiatrists has been flooding the newspapers, magazines, and internet with reckless anti-dianetic propaganda.
well then you must have not read them very well. I know telling you guys to search a 20 pg long thread is asking a child to find the golf shoe to beat him with, but it was worth a shot.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5483689 - 04/05/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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try looking up just a few studies regarding placebo and try again to tell me that it doesnt have effect.
I already have done what you've suggested. Placebo's probably do have a neurological effect (even that is highly debated) and are possibly useful in some situations, but the long-term psychological effects are often harmful.
well then you must have not read them very well.
I'm sorry, I lied about reading that thread. I should've known you'd realize this. Since we're such dupes, could you quote a specific post of yours, in that thread, which gives us non-anecdotal evidence of Scientology innocence?
Edited by MushmanTheManic (04/05/06 04:53 PM)
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Temptress
Butterfly


Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Texas - where else?
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5483741 - 04/05/06 05:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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what does the wackines of scinetiology have to do with weather or not mormons are wacky?
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: "People say the darndest things about Mormons" [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5484279 - 04/05/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
I'm sorry, I lied about reading that thread. I should've known you'd realize this. Since we're such dupes, could you quote a specific post of yours, in that thread, which gives us non-anecdotal evidence of Scientology innocence?
ok, just so Im following you here.... clarify this for me: you want me to provide scientific evidence, somehow, regarding a subjective matter such as innocence, to rebuttal unfounded made up claims regarding Scientology?
well, If you must know, the evil litmus test results havent come back yet to find out the evilness of e-meters....
you cant disprove a negative, especially when personal experience doesnt count for anything.
i will tell you this though... everytime I talk to someone from clambake U, they spout phrases out, as if they knew them mnemonically. Example: "they use the e-meter to dispel "thetans" in your body"... this is not only false, but laughable. It is like they read, or heard a word used by a scientologist, and having no understanding of what the words meant, decided to make their own analysis of what it meant, and the end result is a garbled mess of nonsense. What I find most interesting though, is how people harp on the misconception of "Xenu". First, it has nothing to do at all with the practices of the church. Second, every single story of a person trying to tell me about Xenu has been so intense and seething as they spew forth unintelligible blather.
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