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Offline_JJ_
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Caps more potent than stems?!
    #547625 - 02/11/02 08:05 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

I never realised this.. forgive me if this isn't news to all of you (it's news to me heh).. but anyhow have a read of this:
http://www.theforestfloor.org/archives/drooldonkey_teks/Potency%20Variations%20in%20Cultivated%20Psilocybe%20Cubensis.htm

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OfflinePsyFlux
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: _JJ_]
    #547648 - 02/11/02 08:45 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

Already suspected that the caps are more potent than the stems... both from experience and because caps have a much harsher taste than the bottom end of a stem. It also seems more logical to me that the oldest part of the mushroom (the cap) contains most hallucinogenic chemicals while the stem is just for support and supply of nutritients.

It's nice to see some hard facts tho :smile:

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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: _JJ_]
    #548102 - 02/11/02 03:51 PM (22 years, 20 days ago)

In reply to:

These, we analyzed the caps and stems separately and found that the caps generally contained twice as much psilocybin as the stems, but that the small amount of psilocin present was entirely in the stems (Table 2). In contrast, our Amazon strai hasd a trace of psiloin in the cap but not in the stem. The cap and stem contained equal amounts of psilocybin.




that was an incredibly interesting read. it's nice to finally see an experiment on things that people hypothsize so much about. however, from the results in this lab, i don't think we can make a definite conlusion either way. although two samples (strains) did have higher concentrations of the fun stuff in the caps, one did not exhibit any difference whatsoever. there may be underlying reasons for this and there may not - but i think a few more experiments are in order before the issue is settled.



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Offlinepharmacopeia
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: geokills]
    #548239 - 02/11/02 06:18 PM (22 years, 20 days ago)

It all depends on the shrooms. I've had stems that fucking kicked my ass, and the caps were fast and furious but not nearly as intoxicating. Generally people think the caps are stronger mainly because it takes longer for the stems to get broken down so the trip is usually slower, calmer, whatever.

Try grinding up stems they'll hit you just as fast as caps =)


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: _JJ_]
    #548610 - 02/12/02 05:25 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

wow - thats interesting shit


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: _JJ_]
    #548612 - 02/12/02 05:29 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

They are in a lamens terms, THE SAME....

I've had many discussions with mjshroomer over this, and honestly there are such minute differences that it doesn't matter....

Both stems/caps are equally potent.... Yes they do both vary, but that doesn't make a rule of either being any more potent that the other....

This post belongs in General Questions, this has NOTHING to do with trip 'tips' .... I'll let the mods here move it today....

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Offline_JJ_
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: Thor]
    #548616 - 02/12/02 05:40 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

But umm.. with all due respect Thor - according to the figures in that article, the caps are up to twice as potent as the stems :

M. R. strain-
First flush
Psilocybin Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)
Caps 9.7---------0
Stems 4.2---------0.35

Equadorian Strain
First flush
Psilocybin Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)
Caps 7.6--------0
Stems 4.7--------0.4

Amazon Strain
First flush
Psilocybin Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)
Caps 5.7--------0.1
Stems 5.7--------0

I also consider this a trip tip - I mean if these figures are accurate - and you had a choice of a bag of caps or a bag of stems of the same weight wouldn't you take the caps? It's also not a question so I don't see why it should go in general questions. Of course if this research is wrong then I apologise for misleading everyone.. either way I thought it would be an interesting read for people.

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: _JJ_]
    #548617 - 02/12/02 05:42 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

Thor - can you point us to a study that proves otherwise?? Ive never noticed a difference personally but i think its interesting that the particular sample in the study demonstrates good evidence


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: _JJ_]
    #548620 - 02/12/02 05:52 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

ONE Article...

People, stop giving too much credit to such small references...

I'll ask mj to respond, he'll set you all straight... Even though you should still expect more sources to make your minds up..

But ONE article, should never even remotely convince you of anything.... Especially in a subject as un-studied as ours.

ONE article, you all want to believe it, however if you read many of the debates on this website under 'general questions' you'll see countless opinions and facts on this subject matter.

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: Thor]
    #548621 - 02/12/02 05:55 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

Its one article with evidence - it doesnt prove anything to me - but im not saying that i believe it - im saying that i would like to see if there are any other studies - not that i need someone to tell me whether it is right or wrong.


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #548623 - 02/12/02 06:01 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

Do a search, some of the Shroomeries resident experts have spoken on this subject.

How about this question, we all know that when a mushroom is picked can hugely affect the content of psilocin/psilocybin in a mushroom, does this study mention that? NO.....

This is a field where very little HARD data is found, yes we have some but its up to the experts like mjshroomer to analyse and tell us from their experience what they infer.

Are people like mjshroomer right, not sure, honestly we need more scientific data... Different substrates, different conditions, different picking times, etc... So many variables, do you think anyone has truly giving all these tests their due respect.... And even if there has been some tests, they are definately not conclusive, so many more tests need to be done for any real scientific data to be obtained.

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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #548626 - 02/12/02 06:05 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

I could take you mushroom hunting, one patch of shrooms could VASTLY be different from the same mushrooms 100 yards away....

Studies are done, but they are not conclusive, and they can't be taken as word unless they are done repeatedly and over many different variables...

These stem/caps debates are in most instances silly, based on urban legends and silly IMO..... This one article proves only that this one test found differances, how do you know that the next would wouldn't have been vastly different..?

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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: Thor]
    #548627 - 02/12/02 06:05 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

exactly my point - but because there are so few studies and so many variables inference from experience can be just as valid.


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Offline_JJ_
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: Thor]
    #548629 - 02/12/02 06:10 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

Okay I agree Thor - this shouldn't be taken as truth. I still think it was interesting, however, that the results showed what they did. I guess a bulk grower could try a couple of extractions to see the difference in terms of the weight of the extract. Crude extractions would probably be inaccurate - but if done on a larger scale I'm sure we could come up with results that would be somewhat indicative. Anyhow I did not post it to be taken as dogma - simply something to be taken into consideration..
The reason I found it so interesting is because it went against what I had read numerous times - that the caps and stems are equal in potency.. that belief has no experimental basis (or does it?), whereas the belief that caps are more potent than stems does now have small, but nevertheless existent, experimental evidence.
If, indeed, caps are more potent - and up to twice as potent (as wrong as those stats may be, just consider for a second that they are correct) then I think it would be worthy to take into consideration for unexperienced trippers (such as myself) who could find themselves well in over their head if they were to dose solely on caps.. Hence why further research is needed.

Edited by _JJ_ (02/12/02 06:16 AM)

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OfflineJammer
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #548631 - 02/12/02 06:11 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

I have too agree with ya.

fuck the studies... (nuttin personal Thor)

:smile:

CAPS RULE OVER STEMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 


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>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (02/12/02 06:13 AM)

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: Thor]
    #548633 - 02/12/02 06:13 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

Your post is infering that i actually believe that the study proves something - all it proves is that in such an unstudied field like ethnomycology a study of a small sample may be able to prove anything


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #548669 - 02/12/02 07:25 AM (22 years, 20 days ago)

Let?s assume the study is correct and  the caps are more potent than the stems, interesting stuff.

Can someone please show me a tek where I can grow only the caps without the stems? :wink: 

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OfflineJammer
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Re: Caps more potent than stems?! [Re: Anno]
    #549601 - 02/13/02 01:19 AM (22 years, 19 days ago)



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>>Jammer>>

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Offlinefelix
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age old question [Re: Jammer]
    #549608 - 02/13/02 01:31 AM (22 years, 19 days ago)

this question should be banned from the shroomery


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Offline_JJ_
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Re: age old question [Re: felix]
    #549640 - 02/13/02 02:06 AM (22 years, 19 days ago)

it wasn't a question.. I was simply pointing out a study I found while searching for something totally unrelated on google :smile:

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