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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: fireworks_god]
#5475336 - 04/03/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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fireworks_god said: It has been stated that, unless you understand the underlying mathematics of quantam mechanics, you don't really have much comprehension of what quantam mechanics is. Any way of describing quantam mechanics without the accompanying mathematics is more in line with metaphors to convey general notions.
I think this thread was meant to discuss the interpretations of Quantum mechanics, not mathematics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretat...retations_of_QM
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ClammyJoe
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5475885 - 04/03/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quantum Mechanics to me means... That the universe is so fucking complex, and reality is so fucking complex in itself that one could possibly ever see or understand reality or the existence of it. It fuckin' blows my mind.
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Lakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: yewhew]
#5478239 - 04/04/06 07:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"what quantum mechanics means to you"...
Quantum mechanics, like most great lies, is practiced and interpreted by those oblivious enough to think that it can describe a non-existent reality. Quantum mechanics, through quantum-level description, has created reality; the believers of quantum mechanics fall for the confabulation and think these lies are objectively present.
Quantum mechanics is metaphysics. QM is supposed to be God. God is dead. Kant is dead. The transcendent(al) is dead.
Quantum mechanics, useful or instrumental in certain certain economies of thinking, is not able to transcend the world it has created -- although its purpose is to do so.
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Annom
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Lakefingers]
#5478277 - 04/04/06 08:13 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Can you explain me why you call quantum theory a lie?
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Lakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Annom]
#5478316 - 04/04/06 08:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I call it a lie because it is not True, because it is a great tale told in a great tradition.
...Also I'm borrowing Nietzsche's concept of the 'the necessary lie'. Life would be unbearable if it weren't for such lies, he claims. They are never true (of course, Nietzsche was only a forerunner to the large discourse of anti-realism, etc...). Veritably, humans are best at is LYING, or CREATING truths. Humans always stand in the position to lie and it is these lies that give life meaning, but meaning is not truth. These truths are not True, no matter how much they may wish to be.
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Annom
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Lakefingers]
#5478415 - 04/04/06 09:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It is a model that can predict reality(=the universe as we observe it) very accurate. There are no Truths in science, that would make it a religion.
I would not call it a lie though, because it does not claim to be the Truth: it's a theory.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Lakefingers]
#5478992 - 04/04/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quantum mechanics, useful or instrumental in certain certain economies of thinking, is not able to transcend the world it has created -- although its purpose is to do so.
God hasn't transcended the world he supposedly created!
If one person started off asking "what is that?", and were answered with "It is a rock", and infinitely asked "what is that?" or "why is that?", you would end somewhere very close to Quantum Mechanics/Physics. We have found a point in which the only thing that is known about a phenomenon, is that it cant be entirely known/perceived rationally.
Everything is a lie until you fully grasp and understand it on your own.
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Lakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Annom]
#5481461 - 04/05/06 01:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It predicts a reality that it presupposes. It is good at predicting that reality because it has created that reality and presupposes it. It has been formed within a structure of thought that gives it that reality a priori. Accepting the vocabulary and thought of quantum mechanics makes one believe, as I said above, that the phenomena quantum mechanics handles are objectively present. This -- the metaphysical contradiction -- is where "God" comes in, this is where religion (as you call) comes in, this is where one is forced to presuppose the entities quantum mechanics has created. As you say: Look! They're there, the theory predicts what "really" happens...
There are astute arguments (philosophical, sociological, ethnological, etc) that demonstrate quite well that there is, for a large part of the population (and scientists) in the West, no difference between science and religion in that respect.
You, being a romantic of, almost Popperian, scientific ideals, like to remind us of what-science-should-be/"really"-is; I prefer to remind us of the social context, linguistic prerequisites and ontological presuppositions of science. This is to say, my argument is about the practice of science; your counter-argument is about an interpretation of its ideology -- your counter-argument has no relevant bearing on my argument.
Theories are lies. They cannot be true (extensively they are reductive, incomplete, obfuscating...), yet they are used and interpreted as if they were truths. This is the lie -- the necessary lie. Let the lies flourish, but let us not forget that they are lies.
Edited by Lakefingers (04/05/06 01:59 AM)
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Lakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5481483 - 04/05/06 02:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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psilocyberin said:
Quote:
Quantum mechanics, useful or instrumental in certain certain economies of thinking, is not able to transcend the world it has created -- although its purpose is to do so.
God hasn't transcended the world he supposedly created!
If one person started off asking "what is that?", and were answered with "It is a rock", and infinitely asked "what is that?" or "why is that?", you would end somewhere very close to Quantum Mechanics/Physics. We have found a point in which the only thing that is known about a phenomenon, is that it cant be entirely known/perceived rationally.
Everything is a lie until you fully grasp and understand it on your own.
Why's that?
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Annom
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Lakefingers]
#5481567 - 04/05/06 03:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It predicts a reality that it presupposes. It is good at predicting that reality because it has created that reality and presupposes it. It has been formed within a structure of thought that gives it that reality a priori.
So you say that if we see an interference pattern of light on a wall created by a laser and two slits, we see that because quantum theory creates it?
And that we have build microsprocessors because quantum mechanics created transistors in our reality?
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You, being a romantic of, almost Popperian, scientific ideals, like to remind us of what-science-should-be/"really"-is; I prefer to remind us of the social context, linguistic prerequisites and ontological presuppositions of science. This is to say, my argument is about the practice of science; your counter-argument is about an interpretation of its ideology -- your counter-argument has no relevant bearing on my argument.
The practice of quantum mechanics is not done by the general public. Most people can't explain what science is. They just know it creates computers and TV's.
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Theories are lies. They cannot be true (extensively they are reductive, incomplete, obfuscating...), yet they are used and interpreted as if they were truths. This is the lie -- the necessary lie. Let the lies flourish, but let us not forget that they are lies.
Quantum theory can be used as true in a practical way because it is so accurate and broad. I agree that the general public has a "wrong" idea about science and that you can call it a lie from that point of view.
Is it a lie that the moon causes the tides?
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Lakefingers

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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Annom]
#5485321 - 04/06/06 01:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Annom said:
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It predicts a reality that it presupposes. It is good at predicting that reality because it has created that reality and presupposes it. It has been formed within a structure of thought that gives it that reality a priori.
So you say that if we see an interference pattern of light on a wall created by a laser and two slits, we see that because quantum theory creates it?
Yes. In this instance quantum theory presupposes many concepts and things which are a priori for, and embedded in, a non-scientific, non-objective linguistic/thought scheme. Such things are "light", "walls", "lasers", "slits", "we", "see", "by"; in addition the language you are using, or the language Qm uses is entirely rife with metaphor; your words don't denote real things -- they only refer, and/or are, the ideas which they are. They are in fact not real.
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Annom said: And that we have build microsprocessors because quantum mechanics created transistors in our reality?
See above. The answer to this is contained within my other posts. QM presupposes these concepts, thus it investigates them and sustains their "reality". That level of description is not made possible by real things -- that level of description is made possible by, at best, successful, instrumental application of QM in theory/language and practice.
The reasoning in your example about the microprocessors is circular: because we build them does not mean that those entities exist objectively. As you said, QM is successful at prediction (in certain theoretical contexts only); once again you're confusing the idea of science and science the practice -- you're also making quite a leap of faith: that instrumentality equates to reality (that since a thing is made, analyzed or useful in scientific contexts that that thing must exist outside those contexts).
To fail to under-stand the is: a) to be ignorant of the functioning of language and its grounds Thought b) to be ignore of the pretheoretical suppositions of action, language, science and thought c) to be ignorant of the sociological and linguistic confines of scientific practices d) to be ignorant of the locality of the language one speaks, scientific or not
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Annom said:
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You, being a romantic of, almost Popperian, scientific ideals, like to remind us of what-science-should-be/"really"-is; I prefer to remind us of the social context, linguistic prerequisites and ontological presuppositions of science. This is to say, my argument is about the practice of science; your counter-argument is about an interpretation of its ideology -- your counter-argument has no relevant bearing on my argument.
The practice of quantum mechanics is not done by the general public. Most people can't explain what science is. They just know it creates computers and TV's.
Who are Shroomery users then, if not the general public? Quantum theory is bigger here, and at most "philosophy" forums, than New Age. Does one need to explain what science is in order to understand it? Why don't you tell me what science is, so then we have a definition to go by. Yes, they know science can be applied to create gadgets, but they usually have little understanding over the sway its practice has over their consciousness. The practice is done and made by the general public in that they are co-creators, co-interpreters, users and abusers of QM.
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Annom said:
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Theories are lies. They cannot be true (extensively they are reductive, incomplete, obfuscating...), yet they are used and interpreted as if they were truths. This is the lie -- the necessary lie. Let the lies flourish, but let us not forget that they are lies.
Quantum theory can be used as true in a practical way because it is so accurate and broad. I agree that the general public has a "wrong" idea about science and that you can call it a lie from that point of view.
Is it a lie that the moon causes the tides?
What is accuracy and broadness? My hands are quite accurate and broad, they are practical. This computer screen is quite broad, it's accurate and its practical. My hand and the computer screen are however almost useless for thinking up poetry, digesting fruit and thinking about...quantum mechanics.
I think you're still misunderstanding my use of the word "lie". It's not threatening to you in that way -- yet it is certainly a threat.
It's a lie that the moon causes the tides and it's a lie that A causes B.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
#5485457 - 04/06/06 04:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Fospher said: Pay attention to my first response to psilocyberin, and you'll see that it's not one of anger, but of complete indifference. He chose to carry on the discussion, so I just showed him his own flaw with his own words. If you dont want to discuss it, then stop posting.
A. Didn't say that I didn't want to discuss it.
B. Gave advice on how not to discuss it.
C. I'm not discussing it, you are. 

 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5485466 - 04/06/06 05:02 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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MushmanTheManic said: I think this thread was meant to discuss the interpretations of Quantum mechanics, not mathematics.
This thread posed the question "What quantam mechanics means to you?" The resulting discussion, thusforth, has been centered around general discussions about quantam mechanics.
Personally, I do not know much about quantam mechanics. I have read a bit into it, and do not recall most of what I read. I did remember a statement that revolved around the notion that understandings of quantam mechanics without understanding the underlying mathematics involved are like metaphors that allude to the concepts, so I offered that perspective to be included in the mix. 
I'm not sure where you will draw a line between interpretations of quantam mechanics and mathematics, so I'm sure your statement that mathematics is not to be discussed is wrong.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Annom
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Lakefingers]
#5485474 - 04/06/06 05:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes. In this instance quantum theory presupposes many concepts and things which are a priori for, and embedded in, a non-scientific, non-objective linguistic/thought scheme. Such things are "light", "walls", "lasers", "slits", "we", "see", "by"; in addition the language you are using, or the language Qm uses is entirely rife with metaphor; your words don't denote real things -- they only refer, and/or are, the ideas which they are. They are in fact not real.
I'm not an objectivist and I do not say that our observations are really out there. That doesn't mean that by naming our (subjective) observations, we create reality. Our observations create reality.
So I do agree with the fact that we can't be sure if they are real. But it is not science to deal with that. Science is about the world we observer/perceive. I call this observed world reality. So reality is not the truth in my definition.
Light is the name for something we observe. It doesn't say whether it is really there or not. Science tries to make the most objective (subjective)observations as possible and tries explain and predict these observations using the scientific method.
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Who are Shroomery users then, if not the general public? Quantum theory is bigger here, and at most "philosophy" forums, than New Age.
Internet people who like to ask the why question. The Shroomery users are not the general public. The Shroomery members in this forum are not at all average people. I'm not saying they are better or worse, but they sure are not the general public.
This is irrelevant for the discussion though....
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Does one need to explain what science is in order to understand it? Why don't you tell me what science is, so then we have a definition to go by.
Science is the observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena using the scientific method. Science tries to create models of the world we observe(=reality for me) using a system that tries to be as objective as possible.
Philosophy Of science explains that its purpose is to explain everything we perceive around us in as concise and formal a manner as possible.
"According to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), a scientific theory is 'a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.' No amount of validation changes a theory into a law, which is a descriptive generalization about nature. So when scientists talk about the theory of evolution--or the atomic theory or the theory of relativity, for that matter--they are not expressing reservations about its truth. " - http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=...umber=1&catID=2
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What is accuracy and broadness? My hands are quite accurate and broad, they are practical. This computer screen is quite broad, it's accurate and its practical. My hand and the computer screen are however almost useless for thinking up poetry, digesting fruit and thinking about...quantum mechanics.
That is a good question I can't easily answer. But if we can create a computer using a model of reality(the world we observe) then I would say that model is accurate.
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I think you're still misunderstanding my use of the word "lie". It's not threatening to you in that way -- yet it is certainly a threat.
Please explain to me why it is a threat.
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It's a lie that the moon causes the tides and it's a lie that A causes B.
We again have a different definition of a word. I agree that it is just a model of what happens, but I would not call that a lie.
I do understand your point and I do agree with it in some way. I just think that I prefer to use reality as the world we observe it because I like to use logic and can't use logic when I don't assume a objective reality(while I don't say this assumption is correct).
You prefer to look at reality as something we can't never be sure about. I agree with that, but don't like it because I can end all my logic thoughts with that.
Science is nothing more than a fairy tale, but a very nice one that is way better than any other fairy tale I've ever read 
Fairy tales are not lies because they don't claim it is the Truth!
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Diploid
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Lakefingers]
#5487879 - 04/06/06 08:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quantum mechanics, like most great lies, is practiced and interpreted by those oblivious enough to think that it can describe a non-existent reality. Quantum mechanics, through quantum-level description, has created reality; the believers of quantum mechanics fall for the confabulation and think these lies are objectively present.
I find it funny that you're able to say this using a machine that would not exist were it not for the insights given us by QM.
I call it a lie because it is not True
So, our success at inventing the transistor, the atomic power reactor, the medical MRI scanner, and the microwave oven are all based on a lie, something untrue. The same for our understanding of why insulin helps diabetics and why milk curdles, also based on a lie.
An untruth that, by some astonishing coincidence, nevertheless manages to explain observations and accurately predict the outcome of experiments better than any other endeavor in human history.
By coincidence... despite it being a lie?
Alright... I suppose you think the Earth if flat too, eh?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/06/06 09:05 PM)
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Annom
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Diploid]
#5488946 - 04/07/06 04:15 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Everything is a lie when you consider the world as we perceive it a lie. Makes no practical sense to me.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: yewhew]
#5489137 - 04/07/06 07:35 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think, perceivable reality is a good representation of what we could define as 'truth' If it matters that quantumspace is organised differently than the space that we inhibit and perceive, I am very indifferent about.
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Help on the Way
Slipknot420

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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5489205 - 04/07/06 08:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said: Also, that is one thing that always fucked me up in regards to QM.... quantum spin. I never could grasp how one full rotation is actually 1 and a half 360's.
im not actually sure what that means
but im pretty positive quantum spin isnt actually the electron spinning around
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*Divine Moments of Truth* "Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon "Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead "Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter
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Lakefingers

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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Annom]
#5489843 - 04/07/06 12:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Annom said: Everything is a lie when you consider the world as we perceive it a lie. Makes no practical sense to me.
Remember the other half of the bargain? That this statement seems almost to be a tautology in that sense, but it is only a reminder to keep us from stupidity?
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Lakefingers

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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Diploid]
#5489889 - 04/07/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Quantum mechanics, like most great lies, is practiced and interpreted by those oblivious enough to think that it can describe a non-existent reality. Quantum mechanics, through quantum-level description, has created reality; the believers of quantum mechanics fall for the confabulation and think these lies are objectively present.
I find it funny that you're able to say this using a machine that would not exist were it not for the insights given us by QM.
I find it funny that you think that's funny and a valid critique of my argument.
Also, criticism does not need to offer a valid/inspiring alternative nor does it have to imply that the critique is unsympathetic with the means of what it criticizes.
Reread my posts.
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Diploid said: I call it a lie because it is not True
So, our success at inventing the transistor, the atomic power reactor, the medical MRI scanner, and the microwave oven are all based on a lie, something untrue. The same for our understanding of why insulin helps diabetics and why milk curdles, also based on a lie.
Yes.
Thank you for repeating my statement to clarify for others! 
You're confusing the practical application and the theoretical understanding.
You're getting caught up on the world lie. Go back to my posts above and reread what I wrote about "the necessary lie". For that something is a lie does not mean that we should get rid of it. You're thinking that there's something wrong with lies -- that we must always been honest!--and that is another great lie.
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Diploid said: An untruth that, by some astonishing coincidence, nevertheless manages to explain observations and accurately predict the outcome of experiments better than any other endeavor in human history.
By coincidence... despite it being a lie?
a) if you're within the context you will think that. go back to the history books, study theory of science, social anthropolgy, etc, then you'll see b) yeah, it's still a lie. Even if I accept the grounds of your argument it still fails to show that my statement about the necessary lie is false. once again, you haven't understood, probably not even honestly read, my posts. whether something is useful, falsifiable or accurate does not mean that the theory upon which it is based is not a lie 
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Diploid said: Alright... I suppose you think the Earth if flat too, eh?
My, you're a clever guy! If I weren't a Westerner I might actually think you're insulting my intelligence and culture! Got any more ingeniously obvious, heard-it-all-before, bourgeoise logocentrism up your sleeve?
But, to lower myself to the level of rationale you are instatiating I must say: even the Earth being flat is a lie.
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