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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Is freedom a lost cause?
#5463840 - 03/31/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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disregard all this babble.......
What would make a better opening post I guess is just a simple question....... what is your explanation of people's blindedness to injustice at the hands of a "free" and "just" nation?
Is it that people are universally lazy? Is it that we have everything we need to survive, have extreme luxuries, and therefore because the survival instinct is cut off we feel no need to be involved in politics?
How do you explain all the inaction, apathy, and even SUPPORT of extreme draconian measures and the erosion of basic constitutional principles that the nation was founded on?
Do you think it's a lost cause, or do you think that the concept of "freedom" is so valuable to people that inevitably it will be restored, in some way?
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (03/31/06 02:42 PM)
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is freedom a lost cause? [Re: leery11]
#5463965 - 03/31/06 01:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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leery11 said: When you tell someone that America is not a free country they will not listen to you.
When someone asks when there has ever been a "free" government or establishment, no one will ever produce an acceptable answer.
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What I think of is this... people say "I would never have owned slaves back then" but I say yes you would have.
I doubt it. Owning slaves was, quite probably, a luxury afforded by those who were more well-established than others, first and foremost.
Secondly, it is impossible speculation. Who is to say who would or would not do this or that if they were in a different time period? They would be different people, etc. etc. etc.
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It's very simple. Racism is masked over and tolerated in this society. Those who claim they aren't racists, in actuality, generally are.
Demonstrate. Have anything to substantiate this?
I wouldn't ask if your statement was something pertaining to one's personal realm, but, as the statement is being proposed as an observation of reality, I'm going to persist in requesting substantiation before your statement can be considered to have any merit or value.
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Those who think they support freedom, in actuality, don't. Because injustice is masked over and ignored.
I simply cannot comprehend what this statement is intended to represent. I wonder how you would go about elaborating that, those who think they support freedom, don't, in actuality, support freedom?
Perhaps an examination of these people on a case-by-case basis could be used to determine how it is that they don't actually support freedom, even though they are under the illusion that they are.
If a case-by-case study cannot be produced, then what merit does the opinion have anyways? I am having difficulity in fathoming what substance this statement has.
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Coming from the perspective that society gave you through propoganda, how can you be anything but wrong on any issues of freedom, justice, discrimination, imprisonment, intolerance, and exceution.
I don't know. How can we be anything but wrong on these issues?
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What you are tuaght is this: America is a free country, all it's problems are fixed. All it's current policies already work as best they can.
Incorrect observation. You are stating that I have been taught this, and yet, alas, I have not been taught this. I cannot personally think of anyone that has been taught this, nor the mechanism through which that they would have been taught this. Current events is a clear demonstration that the majority of Americans do not feel that America's problems are solved, or that its policies, as implemented by its Administration, think that they work the best that they possibly could.
What information have you been basing these statements on?
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They do not ........ ever. Learn........ or understand.... or realize what is going on right underneath their eyes, because they operate under the assumption that they are already free.
Who is "they"? You haven't provided any evidence for us to utilize to come to the conclusion that "they" aren't anything but a delusion that do not exist. Have you studied the psychology of "them", or otherwise have privileged access to their thoughts with which they operate, and their subsequent assumptions and understandings? 
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They would be the people arresitng Rosa Parks. They would be the people owning slaves....... they are the people who despite claiming not be racist are terrified of flying on a plane with people speaking arabic. They are the people who despite loving "freedom" so much more than support the patriot act and say "why should I care if the government illegally spys on my phone calls."
I think "they" is some form of a straw man....
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THEY are the persecutors and they are exactly what they claim not to be.
And this is your successful manuever of burning that straw man down. 
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I do not have much hope......... do any of you see a brighter future?
I see the possibility of a future. I'm not one to speculate to an extent to start strapping on adjectives to the noun. I simply realize the mechanisms through which a future is produced and apply myself towards actively interacting with my environment in order to effect the change in the present that inevitably creates the future.
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I could see it happening easily if this generation gets mad enough.....but the conditioning grows ever more subtle as it goes on until propoganda is almost impossible to separate yourself from. Can you even trust network news? How do you know it isn't being deliberately slanted by governmental officials?
How do you know that it is? As long as we are being paranoid, we might as well be two kinds of paranoid - expecting the worst and expecting the best. 
I guess the easier alternative is to not be paranoid at all.
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I mean........... it's the matrix. It's all formulated to keep us passive.
Is it?
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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I was hoping no one replied to this so I could delete it. I was just moping at the time.
But here's what I'm trying to say and obviously it's generalized, how else can one speak? People at large are conditioned to be against injustices, racism, etc, but in fact are simultaneously conditioned to be blinded to the actual injustices that are happening in the present moment.
This is why notions of "Land of the free" are so dangerous, because you take them as truth. While "free" does not really mean anything as long as government plays any role whatsoever in policy/punishment (perhaps save a minimalist no murder, no theft, no rape, golden rule situation?) the fact of the matter is so, so, so, so, many people still believe we are a "free" country. Some even believe that we are the freest country in the world, and yes, I was taught all of this.
The damage done is that when you believe that we are the best country in the world, and by the way who is NOT taught this in public schools? If anyone was taught otherwise by authority I would like to hear.... it was all I was ever taught in my school system....... when you believe this, you basically are conditioned to just go ahead and sit around and not do anything to make things better, because.... we're the best, right?
It's very dangerous. I'll give that we have it great in comparison to quite a few but that there are screaming atrocities happening right now, and though yes the country has never been more disillusioned with a leader (or have they?) what do we have to show for this dissent? Nothing, the NSA can still break their own laws, the patriot act can still exist...... and we just sit here and grumble for it......
It's an illusion to me, but, to me, most people don't see it.
It is looking at society with a cultural blinder on.... of course our country is great, it's OUR country how can't it be great!? That's why policy changes are so hard, people are unwilling to abandon the rights and wrongs that they have been taught.
Thank you for being critical though..... what I'm trying to point out is doublespeak. The flag waving patriot who loves freedom so much fails to realize that by supporting his current administration, he is supporting the erosion of his valued constitution, and he may never get it back if he continues to give them support.
It's an issue of "I love freedom" contrasted with "but you deserve to be in jail if you do this this and this" and "I'd never be a racist" in contrast with hating rap music and making judgements about the hip-hop culture all the time... it's basically what you have been conditioned to SAY YOU ARE, versus what you actually are.
It's like being a Christian yet never ever going to church and fornicating all the time.... I view this as the American default.... a blind hypocrisy that does not realize its own contradictions.
I may be wrong, there are plenty who are not like this. This is what I view the problem of the nation as........ but it's all subjective and paranoid, quite right.
How can one explain, in a free nation, a war on drugs in which a man can be sent to jail for 93 years for growing a plant? My explanation is that the people of the nation are manipulated by absurd amounts of propoganda and their critical thinking centers are disarmed by "patriotism" and fear.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (03/31/06 02:47 PM)
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!


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Re: Is freedom a lost cause? [Re: leery11]
#5464520 - 03/31/06 03:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Peyote_Princess
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Re: Is freedom a lost cause? [Re: leery11]
#5464527 - 03/31/06 03:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't live in the USA - so can't really comment thoroughly on the concept of the 'land of the free' but it seems to me that life s 'free' providing you stick by the rules of the authority... which isn't freedom...
But then, my philosophy tutor raised an idea that "freedom" could be a lack of choice - he used the example of not being able to choose a toothbrush from the varied array in the shops - he suggested the theory that choice could be a burden, and raised the idea that true freedom could be the freedom from the burden of having to choose - like someone saying to him "choose this toothbrush"{/i]
he wa just tossing around ideas - as I am - but it's an interesting theory when you think on it
Peyote_Princess xXx
-------------------- "Was I talking? ... Did they hear me?"
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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mmm yeah....... you are completely free if you follow the rules.... it is simpler that way and leads to a more peaceful life.
but my idea of a good time is a bunch of friends out drinking. only replace drinking with smoking marijuana.
i think alcohol is EVIL and it's most definitely a poison, and therefore I'm in a pickle..... which becomes quite a cumbersome pickle when .... psychedelics are so neat and uplifting.
the other idea is to completely destroy any fear of authority whatsoever and liberate yourself, so that you continue living your path yet authority is of no concern. this raises philosophical questions abound... by taking the red pill enough, will your spirit be so free as to have control over external reality, keeping the imaginary thought police at bay, and the real police without a clue?
it is indeed true that most local cops can't be assed to deal with minor drug posession, but the laws are quite a spectacle of cruelty and "evil" if there is such a thing.
would not freedom be where the consumer is allowed all choice possible, and restrictions are only put in place by authority in instances of the consumer choosing to violate the rights of another consumer? I.e. you're free as long as you don't try to make other people less free? Most.... laws make sense! But what of the ones that don't? Is it unreasonable to think that they should not be in place?
The only difference is people will smoke pot more openly, the numbers won't go that crazy, the Netherlands smokes just as much as America does if the statistics I've heard are accurate, just they do it in the open without being put in jail for a few years.
And the interesting thing is that the world's drug policies are controlled by America.... we put them in place and demanded the world to join us....... but clearly..... the more personal and compassionate a society is, the more EVERYTHING is allowed and the need for protection hardly exists....
take a tribe of people.... they aren't going to murder each other, generally, they all use their favorite drugs, and generally they seem to be psychedelics but what do I know of native cultures maybe some had alcohols and opiates...... and though they have authority, there is much more harmony.
the erosion of freedom with the rise of a society seems natural, but ..... what does this say of us... that we are exceptionally greedy and desire to control the less powerful?
perhaps this is the price of individualism.... one giant individual tricking lesser individuals into thinking they are powerful...... in a collectivist culture where people felt more as a unit, even consciously, as a unit.... would there be more responsibility on the part of the citizens to police their government, rather than the other way around? this individualism is also what makes drugs so "dangerous" in the first place, because it then becomes COOL to get straight fucked, trip ballz, and make a spectacle of yourself to other people.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (03/31/06 03:56 PM)
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!


Registered: 09/11/04
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Re: Is freedom a lost cause? [Re: leery11]
#5464711 - 03/31/06 04:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"when you try to find freedom, you is what it finds..." -Unknown 
(I want to add an "e" and this reminds me of supermario.. at the end.. on the Snes..  ...HeHe.. )
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Is freedom a lost cause? [Re: leery11]
#5465302 - 03/31/06 07:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Like the 'statue of liberty'  For the common guy it's the sign of the freedom of the people of america.
In fact, it was a present of french freemasons, meaning: "We will show you the light. The light is in our hand, so FOLLOW us !"
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Is freedom a lost cause? [Re: leery11]
#5466469 - 04/01/06 04:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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leery11 said: People at large are conditioned to be against injustices, racism, etc, but in fact are simultaneously conditioned to be blinded to the actual injustices that are happening in the present moment.
And these actual injustices are?
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This is why notions of "Land of the free" are so dangerous, because you take them as truth. While "free" does not really mean anything as long as government plays any role whatsoever in policy/punishment (perhaps save a minimalist no murder, no theft, no rape, golden rule situation?) the fact of the matter is so, so, so, so, many people still believe we are a "free" country. Some even believe that we are the freest country in the world, and yes, I was taught all of this.
And what of this notion of "land of the free"? What do you think everyone thinks that means? Demonstrate what this concept is and why it is not actually representative of the reality of the situation.
What mechanism is utilized to "teach" people this? I don't remember any class that I took in school that taught "Our country is free, we are the freest country in the world". 
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The damage done is that when you believe that we are the best country in the world, and by the way who is NOT taught this in public schools? If anyone was taught otherwise by authority I would like to hear.... it was all I was ever taught in my school system.......
Once again, I hardly remember a class that taught "we are the best country in the world". I think you would not be able to produce any example of this. Contact your old school, borrow some curriculum, post it here. Maybe you just want to think that you were taught so? 
Its almost impossible for me to respond to the rest of your rant. You state that things are this way and that things are that way, but there isn't any manner in which this can be examined. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
And these actual injustices are?
what's your beef dude? The war on drugs, as I said, is an issue. The prison systems are an issue. Many people are like "well he'll be with Bubba now." I hear it all the time... they dont' care. They support execution. They support lengthy prison stays for things that are NOT crimes.
If these aren't injustices, what are? Maybe we should just shoot people that protest peacefully too?
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And what of this notion of "land of the free"? What do you think everyone thinks that means? Demonstrate what this concept is and why it is not actually representative of the reality of the situation.
again what are you saying? I don't see how it isn't clear. Land of the free is propoganda and it makes people think that they live in a free nation, which makes them less likely to question their governmental officials.
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What mechanism is utilized to "teach" people this? I don't remember any class that I took in school that taught "Our country is free, we are the freest country in the world". 
So you're saying I'm making stuff up? I understand you wanting to question my assertions, but I WAS taught this, it is not a class, it is what the teachers tell you. I was regularly told how horrible Russia/communism was.... we were led for a long period of time to sing "this land is our land" and various patriotic songs. We said the pledge of allegiance every day, and yes, we WERE taught that America was the best nation on the world. it ISN'T part of the curriculum dude, what's your issue here? You deny that teachers don't carry these biases into their classrooms? If you really want to examine it though, it's regularly taught as part of American History that George Washington could never tell a lie, which is a lie...... often times history books in the classrooms are biased and innacurate...... I'm pretty sure this has been quantifiably observed. How about a teacher that hangs a "God Bless America" picture in her first grade classroom? I took a picture of it.
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Its almost impossible for me to respond to the rest of your rant. You state that things are this way and that things are that way, but there isn't any manner in which this can be examined. 
that's like saying I can't examine my childhood.... I can because it's been experienced by me. People are raised en masse to believe that this is the best country in the world! Just go ask random people what the best country in the world is.... where did they get these ideas?
I really don't know what you're trying to say... because I don't have a scientific experiment going on to evaluate people's views that I cannot state what people's views are through my observations? Of course I am indeed biased........ but this IS what I was taught... it IS what my classmates were taught, and it's ESPECIALLY what 9/11 is trying to condition people to think.
The police support this agenda. The military supports this agenda. The politicians support this agenda. The school-teachers often support this agenda.... the religions support this agenda...... dissent does not generally make it's way into state sponsored education... high-schools and colleges may be an exception.
Of course, it's likely there are elementary school teachers that don't feed their kids biased opinions about their nation..... it's very likely.....
But that doesn't matter, many Americans believe this is a free country, and that drugs should be illegal. They are very afraid of terrorism..... they are this way through education and conditioning, how can it be any other way? I can't quantify, no.... of course I can't...... so what are you trying to say exactly? Do you disagree?
When looked at relatively the war on drugs is todays segregation, todays slavery, todays lack of suffrage....... they cut your educaitonal funding if you are convicted with drugs......
and people will support it becasue they haven't examined the issues at hand, rather simply because drugs are evil, because this is what they are taught. And I hope you aren't denying the massive brainwashing that occurs in schools against drug use?
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (04/01/06 11:10 AM)
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