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Invisiblespudamore
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Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 1,460
Loc: Australia
stubborn people
    #5461947 - 03/30/06 10:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

is it easier to give into stubborn people than try to persaude them to see a view from your perspective?
no matter how true your statement is or opinion is and they don't accept it, tell them they are right get past it and move on, very little energy is wasted, they feel better but you still know the truth.


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suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: stubborn people [Re: spudamore]
    #5462300 - 03/31/06 12:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It depends on what you value. Do you value the discourse between you and them? Or is the winning more important? Or perhaps keeping the peace and not arguing at all is highest on your list?

Figure that out and you have your answer.


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Happiness is a warm gun...


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OfflineCherk
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Re: stubborn people [Re: spudamore]
    #5462343 - 03/31/06 12:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

you are being stubborn when you try to persuade a stubborn person

you don't have to make them think that you believe they're right if you stop trying to make them think that they believe you're right


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: stubborn people [Re: spudamore]
    #5462345 - 03/31/06 12:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Depends on how close you are too them. If they are strangers, yes, save your time and energy and move on. If they are over 65, GOOD LUCK with that.

Stubbornness is sometimes backed by fear, be it of the unknown, beleif that giving in means they loose control over a situation, fear of letting go, or pride. It may be due to a bad past experience, (maybe even past life- like of water if they had drown in one). Maybe, they just tried something before and found something they prefer better and that's that and it's understandable.

If you can determine where the stubborness is coming from, you may be able to understand the reason for it and let it go and let them be. You may learn something new and change your own mind. If it's totally irrational, some gentle reasoning doesn't hurt and may help someone move beyond a fear and see that there was nothing to be afraid of.

Sometimes, you can see something in the person that wants to budge, is curious and is looking for good reasoning to do so. In those cases, your time and energy may not go to waste but be of service to them.

The thing is, if you are close to people and care about them and always give them their way easily, you are doing them a disservice. You spoil them. They'll become a tyrant who always expects to get their way and will soon become bold enough to start expecting the ridiculous. If they don't get the ridiculous by holding their ground, they will throw a temper tantrum.

Giving into people all of the time isn't a solution either. Those we care about do require our time patience and energy if we are to establish healthy and productive relationships with them.

Showing respect and consideration can go a long way for keeping communication channels open. I have to remember to show it more myself.


Ussually here, it's easy to figure out who has their heels firmly dug in on something. If I continue on with them, it's not that I think I can help them budge from a fixed mental spot and into a place I think is better, or even neccesarily care too.  I may do it to get a new argument out of them, I may find interesting or I keep writing for the people following a discussion who are open to considering more of a different view on the topic, even if the one I am discussing with isn't.

It's a tough call, like trying to persuade a 6 year old to ride a roller coaster who is refusing to. If you are able to get them on it, half will probably love it and wonder what they were so afraid of and want to get on it again.

The other half will be trembling and crying hysterically at the end, and you may have scarred them for life and delayed the time they would have been ready to go there on their own timing. :shrug:

Sometimes, a little persuasion can help someone move past a fear and open them up to more great things in life and maybe even create closer bonds of trust. Sometimes, it may cause harm and may just cause them to pull away from you. Weigh it out.

Nice post topic spudamore. :thumbup: Nice to see you back around. :sun:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: stubborn people [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5463716 - 03/31/06 12:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

don't tell them they are right, tell them that you disagree and if they do not want to discuss, move on.


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: stubborn people [Re: spudamore]
    #5464020 - 03/31/06 01:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

spudamore said:
is it easier to give into stubborn people than try to persaude them to see a view from your perspective?
no matter how true your statement is or opinion is and they don't accept it, tell them they are right get past it and move on, very little energy is wasted, they feel better but you still know the truth.




The Zen master Hakuin was praised by his neighbours as one living a pure life.

A beautiful Japanese girl whose parents owned a food store lived near him. Suddenly, without any warning, her parents discovered she was with child.

This made her parents angry. She would not confess who the man was, but after much harassment at last named Hakuin.

In great anger the parent went to the master. "Is that so?" was all he would say.

After the child was born it was brought to Hakuin. By this time he had lost his reputation, which did not trouble him, but he took very good care of the child. He obtained milk from his neighbours and everything else he needed.

A year later the girl-mother could stand it no longer. She told her parents the truth - the real father of the child was a young man who worked in the fishmarket.

The mother and father of the girl at once went to Hakuin to ask forgiveness, to apologize at length, and to get the child back.

Hakuin was willing. In yielding the child, all he said was: "Is that so?"



:wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Re: stubborn people [Re: spudamore]
    #5464098 - 03/31/06 01:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"the truth knows, it(s) self!"
-unknown  :mushroom2:


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Disclaimer!?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
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Re: stubborn people [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5464443 - 03/31/06 02:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I really liked that story! Hakuin is the shit :cool: :cool: He's like a humble smart ass.


It's beautiful in the big picture of existence.

In the corporate, business world, that doesn't fly you all know. The art of persuasion is a survival tool.

Even when dealing with stubborn children, sometimes, you have to work and work to get them to understand why something like brushing their teeth is just something they should be doing for their own good.

Sure, you could let them be stubborn and learn the truth of what you were saying the hard way when their teeth rot and they get gum disease.

Most parents won't give in and let them have their way with something like that.

Regarding my daughter, where I can allow her to be stubborn and learn the hard way if she insists, I will and do.

It seems to me that applying the allowance of stubbornness in adults versus children are two different worlds of reasoning for giving allowance to stubbornness.

If your 80 year old grandfather knows he has cancer and refuses to go get treatment, oh well. You know he understands the permanence of death and lived a long life and he is old enough to make his own informed decision.

If your 6 year old has it and refuses to go, you will be more persuasive with them to get them to go. They are not yet able to reason the permanence of death nor are able to reason their way through informed decisions on their own.

I don't see this as a black or white topic. Of course if someone is acting to persuade a stubborn person, they are in a sense being just as stubborn about getting the other to budge. That isn't always a BAD thing to do like with the examples I gave.

Maybe in the big picture of eternal existence it is. Maybe, wanting a child to have healthy teeth and survive cancer is a selfish act on the parents part and an infringement upon the child's will and or nature taking its own course. :shrug:

Where is that fine line between care and guidance of others, and allowing for the free will of others and Natures/Divine will to be as it is?

It can't be as simple as black or white.

What if one has the will to live and is just to dumb for their own good to understand what actions are required to achieve that?  Is persuasive intervention okay then?

Same with surrendering to divine/natures will. If we don't, are we being foolishly stubborn? If we do, is the Divine/Natural Rule using a persuasive force on us to bend its way? How does that make it any better then us regarding that act. The one thing I can reason is that, It is more intelligent and probably knows best for the long term for the whole of life.

Like with the teeth, maybe humans are doing something not in accordance with the nature of what would keep teeth naturally free from decay.  Maybe decay is a sign to us that, we are stubbornly doing something foolish to cause it. In the mean time, we persuade them to stay the way we want them to through brushing and or manipulate them with drills and fills.

Anyone see what I am saying?

If any are all for a Zero persuasion use on the stubborn policy, I want to know how you got your job and keep it without having had used it. If you have kids, I also want to know, how you keep them safe and healthy without ever using it.

In the big picture of eternal life, I understand where free will and allowance must rule for the truth to not only be discovered naturally, but also for it to mean something to every individual when the light bulb goes off in their own head.

I look at the world and way of life humans have designed for themselves and we haven't made it easy to live with the humble, accepting grace of Hakuin.

Beautiful story. Thanks for sharing it FW! :thumbup: :sun:

All good food for thought.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblespudamore
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Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 1,460
Loc: Australia
Re: stubborn people [Re: Cherk]
    #5466089 - 04/01/06 01:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i don't think it is stubborn to do so, and if you know after trying a little persausion that they not going to change their mind, and and see that and let it go. holding onto is being stubborn.


--------------------
suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem


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Invisiblespudamore
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Male
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 1,460
Loc: Australia
Re: stubborn people [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5466105 - 04/01/06 01:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

thanks jiggy not around much but still check in once in awhile. been a little busy lately and the shroomery isn't on the priority list.


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suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem


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