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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"?
    #5457971 - 03/30/06 01:05 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

A lot of gun-owners make the argument that unless they have guns they would be unable to "fight tyranny".

I'm guessing this is merely a soundbite phrase that has no meaning. But if possible could any gun owners explain precisely how you would "fight tyranny" with your guns and what aspects of this "tyranny" would actually drive you to "fight" it?

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OfflineDarcho
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5458334 - 03/30/06 06:07 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Most likely the people who are supporting the tyranny (i.e. the policing units) will have guns. Fight fire with fire: a fist is not going to do much against a man armed with a rifle. How would you fight tyranny with a gun? By shooting it.

What aspects of tyranny would drive you to fight it? That would probably have to be the tyrannical aspect, what else.

For some reason, I think that you did not think very much when formulating these questions, since the answers seem so obvious.

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Offlinerawtoxic
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Darcho]
    #5458360 - 03/30/06 06:31 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

You could make the argument that without nuclear weapons you can't fight tyranny especially if the tyrants have nuclear weapons.

Correct merely a soundbite.

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OfflineDreamer987
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5458363 - 03/30/06 06:38 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

o.k. i'll bite.

I well armed populace is the best control against tyranny.
I'm sure we've all heard that before. Most comon arguments are that every dictatorship in history has tried confiscating all weapons before rising to power, most recent example would be the Nazi's.
If the government came in, and started really stepping out of line.. joe Q tax payer could spray some buckshot at the jackbooted thugs, and in theory fight them off.
I don't know the exact definition of tyranny, but if you outlawed guns, than only law abiding citizens would lose there weapons, and ability to defend themselves. It would be a golden era for robbery. Any thug with gun would be garunteed a populace unable to fight back.
Right now think about robbing somebody. Than think about the amount of the population that are armed with concealed weapons. Makes it dangerous to talk out of line, or even hit your women on the street!

So that said. In this day and age, i bet the government knows, that no matter what bullshit they pull. It would be damb near imposible to pry guns out of the hands of Americans. If they were going to take them away, they would have to have a really cleaver scheme, or have a way of taking power, with some kind of better weapon to overpower the citizenry.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5458524 - 03/30/06 07:49 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

i don't understand why this is so hard for you to imagine. armed citizens have been an important factor in many conflicts, and in some cases the deciding factor. it's not a soundbite phrase with no meaning, it's a matter of historical record. armed citizens matter.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: wilshire]
    #5458595 - 03/30/06 08:38 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The same way I have fought meth addicts from ripping me off(more than a litttle sarcastic analogy there :wink: )I corner them with  my 480cal ruger and tell them to either cease and desist or desist forever. It works.As for "tyranny" when enough folks have had their fill of government intrusion we will see a rash of "terrosits" putting a cap in the intruding element.
Time is coming IMO.
WR


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To old for this place

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5458808 - 03/30/06 09:37 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
But if possible could any gun owners explain precisely how you would "fight tyranny" with your guns and what aspects of this "tyranny" would actually drive you to "fight" it?





Its quite simple: 

If the police ever kicked my door in, I would shoot them.  I have no desire to go to prison.  If I were to die in a hail of bullets instead, then so be it.  I bet I could take out at least 3 or 4 of them before they got me :smile:

If everyone else shared my attitude, people wouldn't be afraid of police, police would be afraid of people.

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5458896 - 03/30/06 09:57 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"If everyone else shared my attitude, people wouldn't be afraid of police, police would be afraid of people"

If everyone shared your attitude, the cops would shoot first and ask questions later.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Invisiblegiz
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Rono]
    #5459139 - 03/30/06 11:18 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

the best weapon against tyranny is not citizens with guns, its building up a society and political systems where people doesnt have to be paranoid that their own goverment wants to hurt them in some way. but ey, we cant all live in scandinavia i guess

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5459164 - 03/30/06 11:31 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I'm guessing this is merely a soundbite phrase that has no meaning.



Whatever happened to educated guesses? Have you become so slap ass crazy that you've resorted to taking shots in the dark? Or are you just trying to provoke people into making statements you can easily refute in an attempt to boost your ego?


Quote:

Alex213 said:
But if possible could any gun owners explain precisely how you would "fight tyranny" with your guns



Ready, aim, fire. That simple.

If it gets to the point where the masses are so fed up that they MUST have change, armed revolt will play a vital role.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
and what aspects of this "tyranny" would actually drive you to "fight" it?



Hard to say. I'll let you know if it happens though.

Quote:

rawtoxic said:
You could make the argument that without nuclear weapons you can't fight tyranny especially if the tyrants have nuclear weapons.



And you'd be incorrect and sound like a fool. You may not be able to win quite as easily, but your opponent having nuclear weapons does not negate your ability to fight.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Correct merely a soundbite.



Too much superbity. Get over yourselves.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Rono]
    #5459232 - 03/30/06 11:50 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)


If everyone shared your attitude, the cops would shoot first and ask questions later.


if everyone shared my attitude, there wouldn't be any cops and there wouldn't be anyone shooting at anyone either.


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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: rawtoxic]
    #5459316 - 03/30/06 12:11 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

rawtoxic said:
You could make the argument that without nuclear weapons you can't fight tyranny especially if the tyrants have nuclear weapons.

Correct merely a soundbite.




whgat would be thye point of a tyrannical government nuking its people, seems counter productive to me. You can't a have a government if there are no people to govern.

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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5459509 - 03/30/06 12:57 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
A lot of gun-owners make the argument that unless they have guns they would be unable to "fight tyranny".

I'm guessing this is merely a soundbite phrase that has no meaning. But if possible could any gun owners explain precisely how you would "fight tyranny" with your guns and what aspects of this "tyranny" would actually drive you to "fight" it?





The hardest part about combatting tyranny is recognizing it. I mean we live in fairly free society right now, its not perfect by all means, it could be much worse.

I supposes the things that would drive me to the point of no return would be the subjugation of the free peoples, when people were no longer allowed to work for themselves but had to work for their government.

When people were no longer allowed to voice dissent or concern.

When people were no longer allowed to roam freely, meander at will.

When these things happen, may fire fall from the sky and peirce the very souls of the opressors.

I will take aim and spray paint avenues with many enforcers life blood, I will improvise and make dow with what litwle I got. I will fight from the shadows. I will fight and run away so that I may live to fight another day.


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Asshole

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OfflineTurn
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #5460094 - 03/30/06 02:51 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
A lot of gun-owners make the argument that unless they have guns they would be unable to "fight tyranny".

I'm guessing this is merely a soundbite phrase that has no meaning. But if possible could any gun owners explain precisely how you would "fight tyranny" with your guns and what aspects of this "tyranny" would actually drive you to "fight" it?




In the poor south those people have lots of high powerd guns and not much to loose. They are crazy! Trust me they would put up a fight by shooting lots of goverment agents. Of corse if the goverment was real cozy with the crazy militia crowd then only us normys would be oppressed.

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Offlinekotik
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Turn]
    #5460246 - 03/30/06 03:35 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

i think an even better question is:

How would non-gun-owners "fight tyranny"?


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: kotik]
    #5460306 - 03/30/06 03:51 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The old fashioned way. Bottle, gasoline, paper.

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: kotik]
    #5460328 - 03/30/06 03:56 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

in certain contexts they can do alright. see the indian response to british colonialism or african americans and civil rights.

i don't think that it's right to claim that firearms are the only protection against tyranny, or that they're the best protection, or that they're a guarantee against tyranny. far more important are other factors like a culture that values liberty and is willing to make a stand for it. widespread private gun ownership isn't going to magically produce a free society. look at afghanistan.

it's also false to claim that they are useless in that regard. proper liberals scoff at the idea, but we're not necessarily talking about a righteous few armed civilians taking on an entrenched despot with a unified, powerful military behind him and winning (though that is certainly not impossible either).

consider these scenarios:

1. a civil war in which there are professional military forces on both sides.
2. an invasion from a foreign power.
3. a popular revolt, joined by defecting military forces, against a weakening despotism.
4. complete breakdown of order due to a natural disaster, terrorist attack, or any of the above scenarios.

these are all situations in which citizens might, to their advantage, become active in open combat.

that isn't even considering the deterrence effect that it might have. the knowledge that the citizens of a nation have weapons and are skilled in their use has a great potential to effect policy and military decisions without them ever needing to fire a shot.

it's not even a hypothetical. it's happened. all over the world. it's a matter of historical record. armed citizens can make a difference.

here is a question:

which would be an easier population to subdue:

1. one with weapons and the skills to use them, or
2. a disarmed population which is otherwise identical to the first

?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Darcho]
    #5462582 - 03/31/06 02:20 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

How would you fight tyranny with a gun? By shooting it.That would probably have to be the tyrannical aspect.



What aspects of tyranny would make you "shoot" back? Is the law against people using drugs tyranny? Would a law against jews or blacks be tyranny?

Currently drug users are jailed at will. I don't see armed drug users making much of an impression against this form of tyranny. In fact the exact opposite seems to be true. The only thing that's going to make any progress is peaceful discussion.

So against what "tyranny" would gun owners be of use?

Try not to go back to history and some "If Hitler was reborn and came to power in America with the assistance of Satan then I would shoot at someone with my saturday night special" kind of argument. Try and give me one example that's likely to happen today that would be best resolved by shooting at people.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: kotik]
    #5462589 - 03/31/06 02:23 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

How would non-gun-owners "fight tyranny"?


UK doesn't have an armed populace. Doesn't have tyranny.

Iraq has well-armed populace (and are clearly tough people who are damn prepared to fight) and had Saddam for 20 years.

Go figure.

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Offlinekotik
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5462678 - 03/31/06 03:48 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

UK doesn't have an armed populace. Doesn't have tyranny.




yes, well you didnt START with tyranny either, its a monarchy. Lets say it turned into a tyranny tomorrow. then what? Its not the lack of guns that keeps tyranny away, your logic just hurt my head


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Offlinecloned
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5462802 - 03/31/06 05:15 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

i think everyone should have as much guns as they want, anyway its the man behind the trigger. you don't need guns to kill, you can just hit them in the Head with a rock or strangle them while they are sleeping...
I might be completely wrong but i don't think its increase of murders are exactly the guns fault. Sure pulling a trigger is way easier then seeing the guts spill out from a dead mans stomach, but it still needs a lot of hate and determination to walk up to your enemy and shoot him in the forehead.
I only own kitchen knifes my self but I'm sure they're all i need if i really need to kill someone

Edited by cloned (03/31/06 05:19 AM)

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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: cloned]
    #5462827 - 03/31/06 05:46 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I think guns would help protect someone on an individual level.

However if there were true tyranny it would be difficult to take out the United States military with rifles and buckshot. It would be possible to have small pockets of resistance which could keep tyrants at bay, but with time, I think the resistance would be overthrown. I'm envisioning a situation similar to Iraq. The insurgents won't ever "win" but they're making their point, and making life miserable for a lot of people in the process.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

Edited by badchad (03/31/06 05:55 AM)

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: badchad]
    #5462853 - 03/31/06 06:07 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

giz stated:

the best weapon against tyranny is not citizens with guns, its building up a society and political systems where people doesn't have to be paranoid that their own government wants to hurt them in some way. but ey, we cant all live in scandinavia i guess


Pure and utter ideological non sense, that only holds true on paper, much like the socialistic system Europe embraces.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Invisiblegiz
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5462877 - 03/31/06 06:30 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

and owning guns to fight tyranny is less non sense how? and you say socialistic system only holds true on paper, what exactly do you mean?

i think its pretty darn obvious that something is wrong with the entire society if a large part of the nation fears tyranny and needs to arm them self to protect themself, why is a society like this a role model for any other country? it sounds more like a middle east taliban country than a western society to me when people are afraid of their own goverment that way

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: giz]
    #5462890 - 03/31/06 06:43 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

From a civil war book I have read several times:

"Pointing fingers changes to pointing guns, because no one listins to pointing fingers"


A very simplistic statement on how guns are a decision maker. If we lived in a peaceful world were government was not corrupt, and everyone hopscotched to work, guns would not be needed. However, this is not the case.


If you were to ban all guns, people would shoot each other with arrows, then knifes,and so on and so on.......

Why should governments fear citizens with guns?

As for the socialistic form of government, I was referring to how good it sounds when you read socialistic viewpoints (on forms of government)from a textbook or such.....however there is no real application in the real world, much like a pipe dream.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5462897 - 03/31/06 06:48 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

giz stated:
it sounds more like a middle east taliban country than a western society to me when people are afraid of their own goverment that way


You are wrong. Precisely the opposite is true. I was in Afghanistan. The Taliban BANNED all weapons, unless you were apart of their cause.
The reason: oppressed people with no guns cannot fight back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Invisiblegiz
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5462918 - 03/31/06 07:00 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

i dont want out goverment to ban guns or anything, they are needet for hunting and whatever, and of course if another nation would invade us like nazi germany did we should have guns availble.

but i dont belive my goverment would invade my home, i dont expect tyranny to come from our elected goverment. the us goverment may do that, i dont know anything about that, but i dont think this is an issue in our pipe dream world.

of course there is corruption here ,like everywhere else, but not on the level of tyranny against its own population

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Rono]
    #5463232 - 03/31/06 09:15 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rono said:

If everyone shared your attitude, the cops would shoot first and ask questions later.




"Shoot first, ask questions last."

I think that slogan is painted on all the cop cars down here in Texas :smirk:

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: giz]
    #5463301 - 03/31/06 09:46 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

i think its pretty darn obvious that something is wrong with the entire society if a large part of the nation fears tyranny and needs to arm them self to protect themself

is there anything wrong with a society in which a large part of the nation fears housefires and traffic fatalities and needs to install smoke detectors and wear seatbelts to protect themselves?

there are people who are not satisfied with relying on government as the finally protector of their life and liberty. considering the events of the past century, this is entirely understandable.

for those who seriously contend that private gun ownership does not help prevent or reduce tyranny, i ask again:

which would be an easier population to subdue:

1. one with weapons and the skills to use them, or
2. a disarmed population which is otherwise identical to the first

?


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Invisibleshriek
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: wilshire]
    #5463316 - 03/31/06 09:54 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I was wondering, based on whatever events, what kind of tyranny can you expect the us goverment to do to its own population? Does people fear home invasions? enslavement? what is this tyranny exactly?

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: kotik]
    #5463378 - 03/31/06 10:15 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Lets say it turned into a tyranny tomorrow

In what sense?

Have you ever used drugs? Do you feel drug users are treated in a tyrannical manner?

I just wonder what kind of "tyranny" would actually make you "fight back". Because here are all you drug users, armed to the teeth and instead of "fighting back" you are meekly submitting to a tyrannical regime that throws you in jail for smoking weed.

What kind of "tyranny" would be enough for you to stop shitting yourselves and actually "fight back"?

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: badchad]
    #5463417 - 03/31/06 10:28 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I think guns would help protect someone on an individual level.


So would a tasar?

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OfflineDreamer987
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5463446 - 03/31/06 10:40 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

A Tazer?
Have you ever used one? Most barely work. Some don't work on big guys. You have to get close enouph to someone to touch them. Or if you have the ones that shoot, you better hope you get them on the first shot.
To disable someone with a low risk of injury in a bar fight, mabey. To stop government troops, from rounding up your loved ones, and sending them to Death camps. Gime a break

The real question is, what if they have a gun?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #5463461 - 03/31/06 10:45 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The real question is, what if they have a gun?

Then they would shoot you from behind before you even knew what was happening much less had any chance to "draw" your gun. Just to make sure you didn't shoot them.

However if they suspected someone didn't have a gun maybe they wouldn't feel the need to execute you first?

To stop government troops, from rounding up your loved ones, and sending them to Death camps.

Arn't the government already rounding up your loved ones and sending them to prison for taking drugs? What difference has an armed populace made?

Fuck all difference. Right?

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5463485 - 03/31/06 10:53 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

what is your response to my posts in this thread?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: wilshire]
    #5464006 - 03/31/06 01:23 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

How about your response to the initial question and the point why well-armed drug users are so utterly submissive to tyranny.

I mean - if armed american drug users rose up with their weapons and forced the government to back down I'd be supporting everyone having a gun to the hilt.

That doesn't happen tho. All we get is some vague "Oh, we'll rise up against some form of tyranny someday...you bet..just not now". I'm interested in what tyranny would actually make you get off your ass and fight?

I'm not interested in the "If Hitler gained power..." stuff. That's not going to happen in America. Lets just stick with reality and say a right-wing government is passing ever more extreme drug laws. How does being armed help you stop them?

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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5464085 - 03/31/06 01:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

because most of us bleieve there is a peacable way to achieve our ends. With a little determintaion and understnading of the democratic process we can everntually win ourselves a home.

If we rose up against tyranny for the sole purpose of legalizng drugs we our hands we be covered in the blood of innocents. The multitudes that would ultimately die because we bastardized our country and all it stands for, their blood would cover our hands and we would be no better than the ones we fight. Its an all or nothing proposition, if we go to war, we go to war, and you either stand with us or you stand against us. The ripple effect would be ar reaching.

Battle lines would be drawn and people would choose, people who at this very moment are not even in the game, they would be the innocents forced to make decisiojn because of our selfishness.

there is a war being fought, its a war of information, the soldiers are everywhere, dressed like you and I. Some in suits in Washington.

We had a major victory with Alito.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5464136 - 03/31/06 01:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Ok so you're happy to stay crawling on your bellies over the tyranny of the drug war. That's one example of tyranny we've got and the gun owners have done absolutely fuck all. Having a "well-armed populace" has proved to be of no consequence whatsoever. Bush and Ashcroft just do whatever the fuck they want and the gun-owners kneel down and gag on it.

All the way down to the BOLTS  :shocked:

So when are gun-owners going to get off their knees and DO SOMETHING?

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OfflineDreamer987
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5464157 - 03/31/06 01:48 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Ummm, lets see. Fighting back physicly against the government in the drug war is a battle we could not win. We have to use information, and what not, to even begin, but honestly not enouph drug users care.

"I'm not interested in the "If Hitler gained power..." stuff. That's not going to happen in America."
Ummm Hellow? That whole thing went down 60-80 years ago. There are still lots of people alive today who remember that incident, and aren't so quick to say "it will never happen"
We are human. Not some enlightened race, of peaceful non-violent beings. Throughout Human history war, and violence run rampant. Just because we have computers, credit cards, and ipods dosen't mean that we have shaken the tendency for gross, and brutal violence.
It is niave to believe that the American empire will last forever. The way things are going, we are going to fall, and hard.
How would you have like to been alive in America during the revolution, and not had a gun to protect your family from the British?
Or how bout the civil war, would you have laid back, and took it while hords of Rebel, and Yankee troops pilliaged, and terrorized the countryside.
What if your one of the millions of Americans, who is victimized by street crime . You gonna let somebody take your $? How bout your wife. What the fuck would you do if some asshole decided to have his way with your wife. Thats not a fantasy world. Women are raped every day. If the rapists are armed, what are you gonna do about it?


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Edited by Dreamer987 (03/31/06 01:51 PM)

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #5464195 - 03/31/06 01:58 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Ummm, lets see. Fighting back physicly against the government in the drug war is a battle we could not win. We have to use information, and what not, to even begin, but honestly not enouph drug users care enough.


Well, what I've been looking for from my first post is an idea of what "tyranny" you WOULD get off your knees to fight.

Ummm Hellow? That whole thing went down 60-80 years ago

Yeah well can we just for the moment assume that Hitler isn't going to come back anytime soon and no-ones going to be sending jews to death camps. Why do you need your guns? What form of tyranny are you going to fight if you are too shit-scared to fight the drug war tyranny?

The way things are going, we are going to fall, and hard

What I'm getting is you think that guns are going to be useful for when the apocalypse comes and you are Charlton Heston in the Omega Man. Ok.

Is there any way guns are useful for fighting tyranny before we get to the planet of the apes stage?

Or how bout the civil war, would you have laid back, and took it while hords of Rebel, and Yankee troops pilliaged, and terrorized the countryside.

Don't run away with the idea that you need legally available guns for people to get guns. The insurgents in Iraq arn't buying their rocket launchers at the Baghdad Walmart you know.

Women are raped every day

So do we agree that the "tyranny" stuff is just a meaningless soundbite and that rapists are the real reason we need an armed populace?

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5464241 - 03/31/06 02:09 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
How about your response to the initial question and the point why well-armed drug users are so utterly submissive to tyranny.





Because they're too busy getting stoned?

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OfflineDreamer987
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5464245 - 03/31/06 02:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Tyranny... lets see, i don't know much about that.
Having a shitty represive government (like the bush administration) isn't enouph to make people start firing they'r guns. Its when the governement steps in, and starts murdering people, that will cause the general publics survival instinct to kick in. That happened not to long ago with the nazis.
It happens all over the world as we speak.
Take a look at Rio de Jenero Brazil. The documentery "News from a personal war" On the movie "City of God" ot to satisfy your desire to see gun owners/drug users fight back against the government.
Your taking a piece of an argument, and picking it apart. Look at the big picture. The problem is not just with governments, and wars, fighting, and killing, but with individual people, crime, preditors, and whatnot.

"So do we agree that the "tyranny" stuff is just a meaningless soundbite and that rapists are the real reason we need an armed populace?"

No, you have your opinion, and i have mine. You haven't one us over just yet.


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OfflineDreamer987
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5464265 - 03/31/06 02:16 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

O.k. drug user/gun owners, CHARGE!
Massive assault agains the government for putting me on probation for weed! Aghhh!

oh wait, no one is following me.
It's not going to happen. If it satisfy's you, yes, we drug users aren't a strong enouph momement to launch an assualt on the government of the United states of America. You'v won that argument.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #5464337 - 03/31/06 02:32 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

It's not going to happen. If it satisfy's you, yes, we drug users aren't a strong enouph momement to launch an assualt on the government of the United states of America. You'v won that argument.

So can we think of any likely form of tyranny a well armed populace would fight against?

If Bush introduced an even more stringent patriot act would the average gun-owner unpack his peice and start blasting?

I guess one of the fundamental problems of this idea of "gun-owners leading the revolution" is the fact that most gun-owners are heavily to the right anyway. You'd need to reach a pretty advanced stage of tyranny before the average NRA member thought it was a tyranny.

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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5464437 - 03/31/06 02:55 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I read it as "How would gun-owners "fight tranny"?"
and the first thing that popped in my head was:
"well, you could shoot her dick off"

I think the right to bear arms really only creates a problem.
the ability to kill eachother is a bad thing. In reality, however there are those who WISH to harm or kill people.

conclusion, the right to bear arms cannot possibly be used to fight tyrrany as only people too insecure or too malevolent to "step up" to bring around a real "greater good" really observe such a right.

insecure people use guns to protect themselves and their family/possesions. They aren't going to risk a coup.

malevolent people aren't going to want a greater good, they will simply want to dominate, malefact, or destroy.

Secure people don't need guns and good people don't want them.

therefore I beleive the "right" is only there because of mans selfish personal security, and it is toted as national security so that nobody would take that right away and leave them at the mercy of the malevolent.

realistically, tyranny is nigh unstoppable by the common person who doesn't fully expect to be killed in the process.

the paradox is that those who have guns, aren't likely to expect to die. thats why they have guns. so why do they need to fight? they already have their guns so they're all set.

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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: kotik]
    #5464456 - 03/31/06 03:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
Quote:

UK doesn't have an armed populace. Doesn't have tyranny.




yes, well you didnt START with tyranny either, its a monarchy. Lets say it turned into a tyranny tomorrow. then what? Its not the lack of guns that keeps tyranny away, your logic just hurt my head




england started EXTREMELY tyranical. feilds of people were butchered, the poor were shit on by the wealthy, the rule of monarch was absolute. NOW it's a democracy. THEN it was an armed populace. NOW it isnt.
WHAT ther heck are you saying?

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5464674 - 03/31/06 04:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

why well-armed drug users are so utterly submissive to tyranny.

because like i said, guns in citizens' hands do not in and of themselves create a situation where tyranny cannot take hold. for that matter, neither does democracy, freedom of the press, a constitution, or due process.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Mitchnast]
    #5465980 - 04/01/06 12:25 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

conclusion, the right to bear arms cannot possibly be used to fight tyrrany as only people too insecure or too malevolent to "step up" to bring around a real "greater good" really observe such a right.


Sounds about right mitch.

If the armed american drug users had fought for their right to take into their bodies whatever they wanted I'd be for every country in the world having gun ownership. But it doesn't work like that. American drug users are armed and still utterly oppressed. In fact I have no doubt if Bush wanted to introduce mandatory life imprisonment for drug possession tomorrow he could do so without armed drug users doing a damn thing.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: wilshire]
    #5466354 - 04/01/06 03:17 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

because like i said, guns in citizens' hands do not in and of themselves create a situation where tyranny cannot take hold

What you actually said was:

for those who seriously contend that private gun ownership does not help prevent or reduce tyranny, i ask again

So you arn't one of those who argue that the jews would have fought back if there'd been gun shops in the Nazi era? Because that's an awfully common argument among the pro-gun lobby.

And if you do believe the jews would have fought back, why do you think drug users don't fight back?

Forget about the death camp side of things - concentrate on the first 6 years of Nazi rule when they were just persecuting jews by throwing them out of their jobs, jailing them etc. Standard persecution techniques that are being done to drug users all over America every day as we speak.

You are all armed to the teeth. Why don't you "fight back"?

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OfflineDreamer987
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5466359 - 04/01/06 03:21 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

some jews did fight back. There was a huge unerground resistance.
you are aware that there was a HOLOCAUST not to long ago. Read up on it.
They say if you don't learn about it, history is doomed to repeat itself.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #5466365 - 04/01/06 03:26 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

you are aware that there was a HOLOCAUST not to long ago.

Read the last post again. Lets try and get some rational thinking happening here.

First 6-8 years of Nazi rule. No holocaust. No gas chambers. Just standard persecution. Do you think the jews would have fought back against this persecution if there'd been gun shops?

And if so, why don't american drug users fight back now?

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Invisiblegiz
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5466579 - 04/01/06 06:05 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

drug users fight back against us goverment tyranny. now that would be some headlines and a quik way to get yourself in prison or killed.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: giz]
    #5466603 - 04/01/06 06:25 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

drug users fight back against us goverment tyranny. now that would be some headlines and a quik way to get yourself in prison or killed.

Exactly.

Millions upon millions of drug using americans armed to the teeth. Number of them "fighting back" against tyranny with their weapons?

Zero.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5466847 - 04/01/06 09:22 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

What tyranny?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5466882 - 04/01/06 09:38 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Your missing the fact that they are drug users. They are either way too stoned to lift a finger, too cracked out to care about anything, or too hippie like to consider violence. And why the hell would drug dealers fight back? If anything they would fight to keep drugs illegal. But drug dealers do fight back. Maybe you dont live in a gang infested city, but here they do gunfights with the police on a regular basis. But there purpose isnt revolution, its racist hatred, greed, and daily survival. So they will never make a change.

There are times for violent revolution and times for peacful ones. The drug war, like the civil rights movement will best be served by a peacful one. Things are bad enough to warrent a violent revolution imo. Id rather just not smoke pot and live my cushy life. Im with zapp, "What tyranny?"

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
    #5466950 - 04/01/06 10:02 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

They are either way too stoned to lift a finger, too cracked out to care about anything, or too hippie like to consider violence

That's a pretty harsh view of drug users. I've met plenty of drug users who were pretty sharp. And look at a few news clips - the hippies did some pretty aggressive stuff.

Id rather just not smoke pot and live my cushy life. Im with zapp, "What tyranny?"

So you don't consider throwing people in jail for smoking pot counts as "tyranny"? You'd rather just stay on your knees and do as you are told rather than "fight back"?

Going back to the initial questions, what form of "tyranny" would make you fight back?

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5466965 - 04/01/06 10:07 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
They are either way too stoned to lift a finger, too cracked out to care about anything, or too hippie like to consider violence

That's a pretty harsh view of drug users. I've met plenty of drug users who were pretty sharp.


Yea me too, but I dont think it would be proper to judge the whole group based on a few smart ones.
Quote:

Alex213 said:
Id rather just not smoke pot and live my cushy life. Im with zapp, "What tyranny?"

So you don't consider people in jail for smoking pot counts as "tyranny"?

So what do you call "tyranny"? Would throwing people jail for belonging to a certain political party be tyranny?



Not if its the communist party.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
    #5466978 - 04/01/06 10:10 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Yea me too, but I dont think it would be proper to judge the whole group based on a few smart ones.


Ok, so why arn't the smart ones fighting back against being thrown in jail? You're all armed. The NRA claims guns are a "defence against tyranny". Do something.

Not if its the communist party

Going on how pussywhipped the right-wingers sound maybe the commies are the only chance against tyranny we've got.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5467088 - 04/01/06 10:58 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, that is the answer. Give control to the communists, I am sure civil liberties would increase tenfold!!


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5467132 - 04/01/06 11:13 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I ask again, what tyranny? Anti-drug laws are the result of meddling nanny-statists who wish to protect you from your own stupidity. Like taking 15% of your income to make sure you can eat cat food when you can no longer work, because you would surely be too stupid to save it yourself. Neither, however, rises to the level of tyranny. Or do you find drug use to be a necessity?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5467154 - 04/01/06 11:24 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Throwing people in jail for taking drugs isn't tyranny?

Ok, so give me an example of what you'd consider tyranny.

Then again, don't bother. I'm not that interested.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5467155 - 04/01/06 11:24 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
A lot of gun-owners make the argument that unless they have guns they would be unable to "fight tyranny".

I'm guessing this is merely a soundbite phrase that has no meaning. But if possible could any gun owners explain precisely how you would "fight tyranny" with your guns and what aspects of this "tyranny" would actually drive you to "fight" it?




This situation is hard to define. Tyranny just doesn't go from 0 to 60 overnight. It is a long and slow process. Oftentimes the citizenry doesn't even recognize what is going on.

Armed resistance doesn't just pop up over trivial things. Nobody is going to run out into the streets armed to the teeth because they can't legally smoke a joint.

I like guns because I enjoy shooting them recreationally and because I like having the ability for a reasonable self-defense. When I walk around at night I always have my gun on me. I know that I will be able to protect myself if somebody tries to mug me...or worse.

As far as "government tyranny" goes, that argument has several variables. You have made the argument in the past that it is pointless for people to own guns to protect themselves from government tyranny because the government's firepower is 100 times more deadly. How is a handgun or a shotgun useful when facing a tank or an attack helicopter? To this I answer, "it's better than nothing".

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Invisibleshriek
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5467191 - 04/01/06 11:37 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

actually against a tank i would rather try to surrender, wave a white flag or something than shooting at it with a .38 :P

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: shriek]
    #5467206 - 04/01/06 11:41 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

or take off to the hills and wait for a better time to fight back

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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5467257 - 04/01/06 11:52 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

For those posing the argument that if the jews had guns they would have fought back. i give you RUSSIA.
there you go.

The jews in gemany, poland, france, austria, italy, were WAY outnumbered.

for those that argue a holocaust isnt likely to happen soon, may i direct your attention to Rawanda. What makes "genocide" and "holocaust" different? simply, one is against people nobody cares about on the global scale, and the other is against the jews.

african nations are a good example of how a well-armed populace does NOT prevent tyranny in the slightest, but rather empowers illusion of cultural separation through violent means.

Whats a "shiite muslim" and a "sunni mulsim"? its basically an example of how even peoples of the exact same linniage and beleifs separate themselves categorically allong SOME line of division. sometimes this becomes terribly bloody, particularly when conflict over which branch owns the land of the common tree See "jews" and "palestine".

Really what we have is a simple responsive social construct. people behave in simple, predictable patterns. Even the most benevolent and sovreign among them will be caught up and be forced to choose sides. The construct is formed by many, complex, intelligent, and often noble units, that form together to create a community where all anomalies overlap and converge to create a simplistic commonality.

If the prudency of a solidary commonality is to be armed, then it favors to justify it's cultural independence by perceiving persecution, and subsequently, admonishing the scource therof with equal force to that perceived.
this is how bloodwars start. Nobody knows who cast the frist stone because evrybody is holding one.
Now, the problem with understanding this is single people think in terms of induvidual rights applied to the community as opposed to communal behavioral patterns applied to the individual.

and we get conflict in argument. Nobody is right because evrybody is one person. and that my brothers and sisters, is PROOF that we cannot apply a uninanimous right to bear arms to a populace for the purpose of maintaining freedom.
For the populace will inevitably treat the individual as an obstical.

If you remember ANYTHING. remember that last line.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5467352 - 04/01/06 12:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Throwing people in jail for taking drugs isn't tyranny?




No, it's not. It's foolish but it's not tyrannical.
Quote:



Ok, so give me an example of what you'd consider tyranny.


Then again, don't bother. I'm not that interested.




Ok, I won't.


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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #5467474 - 04/01/06 01:00 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

nakors_junk_bag said:
Quote:

Alex213 said:
A lot of gun-owners make the argument that unless they have guns they would be unable to "fight tyranny".

I'm guessing this is merely a soundbite phrase that has no meaning. But if possible could any gun owners explain precisely how you would "fight tyranny" with your guns and what aspects of this "tyranny" would actually drive you to "fight" it?





The hardest part about combatting tyranny is recognizing it. I mean we live in fairly free society right now, its not perfect by all means, it could be much worse.

I supposes the things that would drive me to the point of no return would be the subjugation of the free peoples, when people were no longer allowed to work for themselves but had to work for their government.

When people were no longer allowed to voice dissent or concern.

When people were no longer allowed to roam freely, meander at will.

When these things happen, may fire fall from the sky and peirce the very souls of the opressors.

I will take aim and spray paint avenues with many enforcers life blood, I will improvise and make dow with what litwle I got. I will fight from the shadows. I will fight and run away so that I may live to fight another day.




I couldn't have said it better myself.

You keep asking what tyranny would I fight, and when somebody answers you you act like you didn't even read the post.

This is what tyranny means to me.
Whne these things start to happen I will become very violent.
When martial law is declared and roving band of pressgangs and armed enforcers start convicting me without trial then I will be pissed.

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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5467508 - 04/01/06 01:11 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Ok so you're happy to stay crawling on your bellies over the tyranny of the drug war. That's one example of tyranny we've got and the gun owners have done absolutely fuck all. Having a "well-armed populace" has proved to be of no consequence whatsoever. Bush and Ashcroft just do whatever the fuck they want and the gun-owners kneel down and gag on it.

All the way down to the BOLTS  :shocked:

So when are gun-owners going to get off their knees and DO SOMETHING?




You can't assume every gun owner has the smae ideas as I do.

A well armed populace is a very broad reaching term.
It is a fallacy to lump gun owners and drug users into the smae category, especially since most drug users probably lean left. We the gun owning drug users are probably a minority on this site.

The gun owners as you have put it, may for the majority of the time agree with them, because if you remember rightly the right is far more supportive of guns than the left.

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5468261 - 04/01/06 05:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

What you actually said was...

for those who seriously contend that private gun ownership does not help prevent or reduce tyranny, i ask again

note the use of the word "help". just like a constitution, freedom of the press, due process of law, or representative government, private firearm ownership helps defend liberty, but does not provide an absolute guarantee against tyranny.

you and i are equally aware of the fact that there are plenty of well armed societies living in tyranny.

your argument that the presence of armed drug users in america living under the oppression of the drug war proves that guns do not help prevent tyranny is a fallacious one. along with widespread private gun ownership, we also have a constitution, democracy, and freedom of the press in america. following the same logic of your gun argument, do you also contend that a constitution, democracy, and freedom of the press do not help prevent oppression?

answer my question alex213. which is an easier population to subdue under tyranny:

1. one with firearms
2. one which is otherwise identical to the first, but without firearms

?


--------------------


Edited by wilshire (04/01/06 08:03 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5469201 - 04/01/06 09:23 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Here's a question for you: How are you supposed to win a revolution without firearms?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5469863 - 04/02/06 03:04 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Here's a question for you: How are you supposed to win a revolution without firearms?






These little guys would beat guns any day of the week.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5469988 - 04/02/06 04:12 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

When martial law is declared and roving band of pressgangs and armed enforcers start convicting me without trial then I will be pissed.

Ok.

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: wilshire]
    #5470184 - 04/02/06 06:59 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
note the use of the word "help". just like a constitution, freedom of the press, due process of law, or representative government, private firearm ownership helps defend liberty, but does not provide an absolute guarantee against tyranny.



Someone's using his noggin.

Quote:

answer my question alex213. which is an easier population to subdue under tyranny:

1. one with firearms
2. one which is otherwise identical to the first, but without firearms

?



The answer is self-evident, unless one denies reality when formulating his opinions.


--------------------
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-- Mark Twain

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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5470548 - 04/02/06 11:23 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Here's a question for you: How are you supposed to win a revolution without firearms?



I have never seen a picture of Gandhi with a rocket launcher.

Much of this thread is filled with pro-gun bravado and nonsense. Comparing arms to smoke detectors? Gun ownership is about the only issue I am on the fence over, but either education or outright illegalization should be considered. Education preferred, considering how despicable government is and can worsen. The gun statistical figures in America in comparison to European countries is appalling. It is clear people in America are far too reckless and irresponsible with guns.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Autonomous]
    #5470608 - 04/02/06 11:50 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The answer is self-evident, unless one denies reality when formulating his opinions.

Then you'll be able to answer the following with examples proving your case:

Which minority is easiest to persecute:

a) Armed drug users
b) Unarmed drug users.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: bukkake]
    #5470614 - 04/02/06 11:52 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I have never seen a picture of Gandhi with a rocket launcher.


I think I saw him with an AK-47 once  :grin:

Clearly Gandhi isn't mentioned too much in american schools. Or the gun owners forgot it because it didn't fit into their belief system.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5470619 - 04/02/06 11:54 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I have never seen a picture of Gandhi with a rocket launcher.


I think I saw him with an AK-47 once  :grin:

Clearly Gandhi isn't mentioned too much in american schools. Or the gun owners forgot it because it didn't fit into their belief system.



If only Che Guevara had followed Ghandi's example. :rolleyes:


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5470894 - 04/02/06 02:02 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

which is an easier population to subdue under tyranny:

1. one with firearms
2. one which is otherwise identical to the first, but without firearms

?


--------------------


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Invisiblegiz
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: wilshire]
    #5471318 - 04/02/06 04:40 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

of course option 1. but if tyranny is considered LE and that people are not allowed to use drugs than this debate is retarded. thats not tyranny. but if for real tyranny its of course easier for the "tyranns" (sp?) if the population is unarmed. but that does not mean that an unarmed population is unable to do resistance and is doomed to fail.

Edited by giz (04/02/06 05:13 PM)

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: giz]
    #5471662 - 04/02/06 06:05 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

1. the 'war on drugs' is an infringement of liberty.
2. this infringement of liberty exists in the united states.
3. there is widespread private gun ownership in the u.s., the ones being persecuted under this infringment of liberty are often armed themselves.
4. therefore, private gun ownership does not in any way help defend a people against infringements of liberty, oppression, tyranny, etc.

that is the "logic" alex213 is using while ignoring a very simple question that blankly exposes the absurdity of his position.

though it's been explained that his "logic" is as absurd as saying something like, "there is freedom of the press in america, yet drug users still put up with the oppression of the drug war, therefore freedom of the press does not help prevent tyranny or oppression", he's still clinging to that argument, also refusing to answer the question of whether or not he believes that this second statement, derived from the same "logic" as the position he is trying to defend, is correct.


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OfflineACN45
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: wilshire]
    #5472631 - 04/02/06 10:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

come on now. alota people just seem to be thumping their chest with an alomst redneck bravado. "aint no po's commin in hurr cause I got my 45 magnum" what the fuck is that? do you think the cops are really afraid of a gun carrying person? they might be nervous of a gunfight but if they want to get you they are going to get you. And everyone keeps using this analogy that they need guns to ward off the "tyranny" if the us government became tyrannical, which it is very close to becomming, what would a shotgun do against a tank? there are no guns in japan and they have hardly any deaths due to firearms. That doesnt mean robberies are happening all over the place there. The idea of illegalizing guns means that NO ONE has them. That means there will be no robber with a gun busting through your front door because there are no guns. If you have such big balls then just get a knife and stab the fuck. The idea that you need guns is archaic and a main cause of crime in this country. Now you all are right that it would be harder for a government to take over its people if they have guns but in this day and age with the technology difference between the military and just a dude carrying a gun it is close to pointless. If you are really worried about this then you should create legislation for a real militia paid for with your own tax money. This militia will be privately run with elected generals and so forth with tanks and all that shit. That way there will be REAL protection from the government AND you can rest safe at night knowing that you dont have your gun with you. Just an idea, but anythings better than thinking guns are gonna protect you from a tyrannical government.

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: ACN45]
    #5472716 - 04/02/06 11:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

come on now. alota people just seem to be thumping their chest with an alomst redneck bravado. "aint no po's commin in hurr cause I got my 45 magnum" what the fuck is that?

that's not what i'm saying though and i wish the rambos would quiet down too.

if the us government became tyrannical, which it is very close to becomming, what would a shotgun do against a tank?

nothing consequential. that's why you don't attack tanks with shotguns. you use small arms against enemy infantry.

it is not time for violent revolution in the united states. an armed revolution cannot succeed, and there is no purpose for it anyway, as long as there remains a democratic order.

there are no guns in japan and they have hardly any deaths due to firearms.

they had hardly any deaths due to guns before banning them. their culture is different from ours. the misconception that firearm prohibition reduces violent crime is outside the scope of this thread, but if you believe that banning guns reduces violent crime, and you have some evidence to support it, start a new thread with it.

The idea of illegalizing guns means that NO ONE has them.

no, it means that only criminals and the government have them.

Just an idea, but anythings better than thinking guns are gonna protect you from a tyrannical government.

no one has said that. are you really reading this thread? guns help prevent tyranny. they do not provide a guarantee against it. the single most important thing is a culture that respects liberty and is willing to stand up for it. no amount of guns are going to make a free society out of a culture that does not value liberty.

guns may help prevent tyranny in two ways:

1. they facilitate violent revolution or resistance if all peaceful methods have been exhausted.

2. they allow a country's private citizens to effectively contribute to the defense of the nation from a foreign aggressor, reducing the likelihood of an invasion and reducing it's chances of succeeding should one occur.


--------------------


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: ACN45]
    #5472762 - 04/02/06 11:24 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

you know... if we were talking hypotheticals, maybe it would be different. no one however is saying, "it's never happened before, but for these reasons, i believe that private gun ownership has the potential to help prevent or reduce tyranny".

no, what i'm talking about has actually happened. there have been popular revolutions against despotic governments. there have been invaders expelled from nations with the help of armed civilian-soldiers. it's a matter of historical record. the position that private gun ownership cannot help a body of citizens defend itself from tyranny is ludicrous for several reasons, but perhaps the biggest one is that this has actually happened many times.

when you claim that guerrilla warfare does not work, or that armed resistance groups are ineffective, you are ignoring historical fact that proves otherwise


--------------------


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: wilshire]
    #5473198 - 04/03/06 01:22 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

that is the "logic" alex213 is using

No it isn't. That is some load of nonsense you have made up with no basis in reality.

while ignoring a very simple question that blankly exposes the absurdity of his posi

What is this question?

1) Do you deny drug users are oppressed in America?
2) Do you deny drug users have access to guns in America?
3) Why has gun ownership not ended this oppression?

You've ignored these questions for 9 pages now.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: wilshire]
    #5473211 - 04/03/06 01:29 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

no, what i'm talking about has actually happened. there have been popular revolutions against despotic governments. there have been invaders expelled from nations with the help of armed civilian-soldiers

This is a completely different subject to whether there should be gunshops on the corner and you know it. People can get arms without there being widespread public gun ownership.

it's a matter of historical record

Then you will be able to give examples. But remember these revolutions must have been carried out entirely with legally bought guns in public stores. Nothing like the Vietcong or the Iraqi insurgency or Afghanistan, or Russia, or China where guns were illegally obtained.

but perhaps the biggest one is that this has actually happened many times.


Then you will be able to provide an example. Guns legally bought from gun stores remember - nothing else or your argument falls apart.

you are ignoring historical fact that proves otherwise


Please provide us with this "historical fact". List me all the revolutions carried out solely by the revolutionaries going into gunshops on the high street and buying legally available guns. I await your list with interest.

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5473546 - 04/03/06 04:37 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
The answer is self-evident, unless one denies reality when formulating his opinions.

Then you'll be able to answer the following with examples proving your case:

Which minority is easiest to persecute:

a) Armed drug users
b) Unarmed drug users.




b) Unarmed drug users. Ask any police officer whether he would rather hassle unarmed citizens or armed citizens. Better yet, read this chart of law enforcement officers killed with guns vs. other methods. Like I said, self evident. Really, you have to be totally disconnected from reality to dispute the fact that armed citizens are a bit harder to control and kill than unarmed citizens.

But government is your friend you say? Here is a sampling of cases of people killed by police officers


--------------------
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-- Mark Twain

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Autonomous]
    #5473583 - 04/03/06 05:05 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

b) Unarmed drug users

So why is America one of, if not the biggest player in persecuting drug users?

It is self-evident that if armed drug users made any difference whatsoever then american drug users would live under tolerant drug laws. You have to be disconnected from reality not to realise this.

But government is your friend you say?

No, I don't say.

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OfflineDreamer987
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5474183 - 04/03/06 11:10 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Drug dealers/hard drug users often carry a gun for protection.
However, even if this gun was perfectly legal, using it in conjuntion with illeagle drugs makes it a felony. 5 year mandatory minimum in many states.
Thats just possesing drugs, and a fire-arm at the same time. Intent to distribute will add another 5 years.


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OfflineDreamer987
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5474197 - 04/03/06 11:12 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

P.S. you are like talking to a brick wall. We have answered many of your ridiculous hypothetical questions, and you keep pretending like you don't hear.
I give up.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #5474208 - 04/03/06 11:16 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

This thread was a lost cause from the moment it was thought up. Gun debate never gets anywhere. Anti-gun people need something to blame other than society, and nothing will change their minds.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5474302 - 04/03/06 11:52 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
b) Unarmed drug users

So why is America one of, if not the biggest player in persecuting drug users?



You asked, "Which minority is easiest to persecute"
I gave you the only rational answer.

Quote:

It is self-evident that if armed drug users made any difference whatsoever then american drug users would live under tolerant drug laws. You have to be disconnected from reality not to realise this.



Let's recap for those with ADD (hint, hint)...
Quote:

wilshire said:
answer my question alex213. which is an easier population to subdue under tyranny:

1. one with firearms
2. one which is otherwise identical to the first, but without firearms

?



Quote:

To which Autonomous replied:
The answer is self-evident, unless one denies reality when formulating his opinions.



The above statement stands unrefuted.

Quote:

No, I don't say.



But you certainly do make it seem that you believe that the law abiding are safer disarmed and at the mercy of people in government, people whom you wish to see unrestrained save for their demonstrably imperfect moral sensibilities and the limits of their desires to accumulate and exercise power. With all the abuse of the power now granted to governments, why would you think that giving more power to the governments and taking it away from the law abiding people would improve the lot of your fellow man? Do you think that only people with whom you agree with will be in positions of power? Do you believe that there will never arise any more tyrants? Do you believe that Pol Pot, Hitler, Caesar, Pinochet, Stalin and Idi Amin are historical aberrations and we have seen the last of such characters?


--------------------
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-- Mark Twain

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Autonomous]
    #5474491 - 04/03/06 12:43 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

You asked, "Which minority is easiest to persecute"
I gave you the only rational answer.


And I pointed out the error in your answer. American drug users are subject to some of the most stringent persecution of any country.

The above statement stands unrefuted.



Are you honestly claiming the fact that american drug users are armed has made the slightest difference to their degree of persecution?

You cannot be serious.

But you certainly do make it seem that you believe that the law abiding are safer disarmed and at the mercy of people in government

You keep missing the point. Here it is again. American drug users are armed. They are persecuted as hard, if not harder, than countries where drug users are unarmed. It is YOU who seems to be at the mercy of your government. Being armed has made NO difference whatsoever.

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5475062 - 04/03/06 03:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
You asked, "Which minority is easiest to persecute"
I gave you the only rational answer.


And I pointed out the error in your answer.



The question was, "Which minority is easiest to persecute." It is easier to persecute unarmed people. The error is in your unwillingness to follow the lines of reasoning presented and admit when you are mistaken. Perseverance is a wonderful trait in pursuing truth, honestly earned wealth and women of salacious appetites. It is not a virtue when incessantly promoting aborted fragments of cannabinoid induced revelations.

Quote:

Are you honestly claiming the fact that american drug users are armed has made the slightest difference to their degree of persecution?



No, learn to read and understand your own questions as well as the answers posed to your questions. You are deliberately trying to lead me and others away from the points as presented so as to hide the weakness of your reasoning. The questions was, "Which minority is easiest to persecute." Are you unable to understand the question that you yourself posed?

I will refrain from further dialogue with you in this thread as you have repeatedly demonstrated dishonesty in your responses, purposely misrepresenting my words and the words of others in pallid attempts to construct straw men so as to distract the less astute from the common senseless notions comprising the foundations underlying the house of cards in which your arguments dwell.

Good day.


--------------------
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-- Mark Twain

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5475214 - 04/03/06 03:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

That is some load of nonsense you have made up with no basis in reality.

yes, but it is the argument you are using. you use it in this very post:

wilshire paraphrases:

"1. the 'war on drugs' is an infringement of liberty.
2. this infringement of liberty exists in the united states.
3. there is widespread private gun ownership in the u.s., the ones being persecuted under this infringment of liberty are often armed themselves.
4. therefore, private gun ownership does not in any way help defend a people against infringements of liberty, oppression, tyranny, etc."

alex213 asks:

1) Do you deny drug users are oppressed in America?

2) Do you deny drug users have access to guns in America?

3) Why has gun ownership not ended this oppression?


to answer your questions:

1. no, i don't deny that.

2. no, i don't deny that.

3. because gun ownership does not end oppression. why do i keep having to repeat this? it helps prevent tyranny. it does not provide a guarantee against it any more than democracy, freedom of the press, or constitutions do.


What is this question?


this:

"which would be an easier population to subdue:

1. one with weapons and the skills to use them, or
2. a disarmed population which is otherwise identical to the first

?"

that is the 5th time i've asked it in this thread. you've yet to respond to it.

You've ignored these questions for 9 pages now.

you first posed that question in this post:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...art=all#5464337

in my next response, i addressed your question:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...art=all#5464674

"guns in citizens' hands do not in and of themselves create a situation where tyranny cannot take hold. for that matter, neither does democracy, freedom of the press, a constitution, or due process."

and since you read this response, you are aware that i did not ignore your question, and we've now reached the point where you're just flat out telling lies... so i'm going to agree with the others and conclude this subject isn't even worth trying to discuss with you. great thread.  :thumbup:


--------------------


Edited by wilshire (04/03/06 04:11 PM)

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5475256 - 04/03/06 03:58 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

3) Why has gun ownership not ended this oppression?

I doubt any rational person would be ready and willing to die for the liberty to smoke a doobie.

They are persecuted as hard, if not harder, than countries where drug users are unarmed.

...like China and Thailand?  :rolleyes:

Edited by MushmanTheManic (04/03/06 04:02 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Autonomous]
    #5475333 - 04/03/06 04:09 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

A series of points

1. Car thieves are "oppressed" in America.
2. Gun possession is irrelevant to your ability to resist the laws of the US government. Try it and die. That is the only outcome.
3. Gun possession does tend to discourage criminals. Even the possibility of gun possession discourages them. I was out siphoning gas during Carter's presidency and somebody woke up and I heard him say,"There's somebody out there. Martha, get the gun." Guess what we did.
4. And this is a real downer but true. People get high and misuse guns far more often than people who are sober misuse guns. The exact same thing can be said about cars.
5. In most of the US any yahoo can buy a gun. Except in high crime areas. In those areas almost all of the guns in private hands are illegally possessed. The direction of the causality arrow is not entirely clear to me.
6. Alex's knowledge of Americans is limited to what he reads or sees on television. This is also true, to a somewhat lesser extent but not much, of most Americans. Very few have experienced anything remotely resembling a fair sample of the diversity of American people.
7. American drug laws vary quite widely from state to state. Nobody gets executed for drug infractions anywhere in America. American drug laws are, by and large, pretty much in the middle of the spectrum.


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5476942 - 04/03/06 10:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
b) Unarmed drug users
So why is America one of, if not the biggest player in persecuting drug users?

It is self-evident that if armed drug users made any difference whatsoever then American drug users would live under tolerant drug laws. You have to be disconnected from reality not to realize this.



Wrong!!!
What you fail to even consider is the fact that drug use isn't anywhere near mainstream in America. Or in most places for that matter. Armed drug users don't have a chance against armed non-drug users.

In the event that a cause is deemed good, and just, and right for the nation to stand up for and to fight for, there will be plenty of support to win the day. As it stands right now, no one is willing to rally around the "Viva La Dope-fiend" bandwagon.

Quote:

.......disconnected from reality .....


INDEED


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5476971 - 04/03/06 10:26 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ekstaza said:
As it stands right now, no one is willing to rally around the "Viva La Dope-fiend" bandwagon.



:rofl:

That definitely earns you five :thumbup:


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Edited by daimyo (04/04/06 09:15 AM)

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5477772 - 04/04/06 01:39 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

What you fail to even consider is the fact that drug use isn't anywhere near mainstream in America. Or in most places for that matter. Armed drug users don't have a chance against armed non-drug users.



Isn't this the problem with the persecution of any minority? Armed jews wouldn't have stood a chance against armed nazi's either. So why do gun-owners insist legal guns would have saved the jews?

In the event that a cause is deemed good, and just, and right for the nation to stand up for and to fight for, there will be plenty of support to win the day

So you accept that gun ownership won't save any minority. The jews would have gone to the wall whether there was legal guns or not.

So we're down to "If the government introduces a measure so unpopular it unites everyone in the country against them...then legal gun ownership might be of use". Even Hitler wasn't that silly. He picked and chose minorities to persecute.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5478804 - 04/04/06 11:34 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Isn't this the problem with the persecution of any minority? Armed jews wouldn't have stood a chance against armed nazi's either. So why do gun-owners insist legal guns would have saved the jews?



They might not have saved the jews per se, but they probably could have held off the nazis long enough for help to arrive. There was actually a big standoff between the nazis and some armed jews that lasted for months before the nazis finally broke through their defences. If more jews had acted the same, their death toll surely would not have been as high as six million.

BTW, the day they start sending pot smokers to concentration camps, I'll put up a fight.


--------------------

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5478823 - 04/04/06 11:42 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ekstaza said:


Armed drug users don't have a chance against armed non-drug users.

In the event that a cause is deemed good, and just, and right for the nation to stand up for and to fight for, there will be plenty of support to win the day. As it stands right now, no one is willing to rally around the "Viva La Dope-fiend" bandwagon.






I beg to differ. You need to start thinking in terms of organizations. Sure, a cop can bust me. But he can't bust all my friends, who also have guns, and know where his children go to school.

You think that the major drug distrubutors in this country aren't acting under local, state, even federal protection? Don't be naive. organized crime is a necessary counterbalance to organized government. Coercion, good-ol-boy networks, and threats of violence are what keep the drugs flowing through this country.

And if you think people aren't willing to bust caps at the police over a little dope, you've obviously never lived in the ghetto.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5479421 - 04/04/06 02:31 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

And if you think people aren't willing to bust caps at the police over a little dope, you've obviously never lived in the ghetto.

Or haven't watched enough Cops.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5479434 - 04/04/06 02:37 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The ACLU said:
"No-knock warrants pose a danger to the lives of police officers as well as innocent civilians," Silverstein said. "Many Colorado residents legally own firearms, and Colorado's controversial 'Make My Day' law increases the risk to police."

"If police do not successfully communicate their identity in the split-second when they kick down the door, they are likely to encounter gunfire from citizens who believe they are justifiably defending their homes from lawless intruders."





Quote:

Baltimore police were conducting a no-knock raid on his home, based on a tip from a single, anonymous informant. Police never announced themselves, and raided in street clothes. Cauthorne emerged from the basement with a handgun, shooting and wounding four of the invading police officers. Cops returned fire. Fortunately, no one was killed in the crossfire.

Cauthorne spent the next seven weeks in jail. Finally, in January of 2003, prosecutors dropped the charges against him, concluding that Cauthorne had reason to believe his life was in danger.




Not only do people shoot at the Police, sometimes they get away with it.  :syringe:

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OfflineEmpTyCLosEtSpAcE
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Rono]
    #5480034 - 04/04/06 06:11 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
"If everyone else shared my attitude, people wouldn't be afraid of police, police would be afraid of people"

If everyone shared your attitude, the cops would shoot first and ask questions later.




They already do that...pretty often in fact.



--------------------
I can't imagine what the cops are going to think when they come in and see a couple hippies on some guy covered in puke and shit screaming i'm dying as we tell him it's ok he'll like it.-Chinacat72

Edited by EmpTyCLosEtSpAcE (04/04/06 06:21 PM)

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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5480672 - 04/04/06 09:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
And if you think people aren't willing to bust caps at the police over a little dope, you've obviously never lived in the ghetto.

Or haven't watched enough Cops.



Right

and

Right


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5480692 - 04/04/06 09:16 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
And if you think people aren't willing to bust caps at the police over a little dope, .......




Anyone willing to shoot someone over drugs should be shot on sight. They are scum.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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Offlinerickpsfuckyou
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5480721 - 04/04/06 09:23 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ekstaza said:
Quote:

DoctorJ said:
And if you think people aren't willing to bust caps at the police over a little dope, .......




Anyone willing to shoot someone over drugs should be shot on sight. They are scum.



unless thats how you eat. ghettoes aren't known for having a lot of other oppurtunities like quality school and gainful employment that pays a living wage.


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5480766 - 04/04/06 09:33 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Who says that the right to bear arms is to protect any minorities or small groups? It's for the nation as a whole. Not Just the potheads or the wacko gun freak nut-jobs. It's for the average man to ensure that there is at least some way of applying pressure to a government gone wrong.

Why does it have to be a small group rising up to overthrow a just government? (Which I believe that America still is, for the most part).

Your examples are, IMHO, irrelevant to the scope of this subject.
Sure, a minority group might not have such a great chance of fighting tyranny with guns, but then again there are still other avenues of resistance. Now if the government truly turns oppressive (and I ain't talking' about taking your hookah away), then I believe that you'd be surprised what guerrilla warfare could accomplish.

You are right to some extent, though. It's not just the guns. It's the willingness to use them. America is slowly losing it's will. Patriotism often involve treason and many don't have any idea where that line should be crossed.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: rickpsfuckyou]
    #5483251 - 04/05/06 03:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

rickpsfuckyou said:
Quote:

Ekstaza said:
Quote:

DoctorJ said:
And if you think people aren't willing to bust caps at the police over a little dope, .......




Anyone willing to shoot someone over drugs should be shot on sight. They are scum.



unless thats how you eat. ghettoes aren't known for having a lot of other oppurtunities like quality school and gainful employment that pays a living wage.




One question. Do you think drugs use should be legalized? Because if it is those losers won't have ANY opportunity, according to your seemingly assinine assertion above.


--------------------

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5483289 - 04/05/06 03:24 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Red herring, son.
They won't have any opportunities, regardless of the legal status of drugs.

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5483310 - 04/05/06 03:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Anyone can get a job at McDonald's and gain experience that will allow them to move to something better. There's also the military and apprenticeships.

To suggest that the poor have to sell drugs to get by is ridiculous. There's plenty of opportunities for everyone as long as they're humble and willing to work hard.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: daimyo]
    #5483315 - 04/05/06 03:32 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

You wanna strut like a pimp then a pimp is all you will be.


--------------------

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: daimyo]
    #5483343 - 04/05/06 03:40 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Anyone can get a job at McDonalds, I agree. Unfortunately, there aren't many McDonalds in the projects.

There are extremely limited and, for lack of a better term, shitty opportunities for people in most black urban communities. Do you think ghettos exist because they're composed of people who want to be poor? This is hardly an apology for being a crack-dealer, but to say there is plenty of opportunies in tha ghetto seems absurd to me.

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5483388 - 04/05/06 03:51 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I never said there were a lot of opportunities in the ghetto. I said there are plenty of opportunities for people in/from the ghetto. If they're too "proud", or lazy, to work a real job, then fuck em. Starve to death, or stay where you are and kill each other. Makes no difference to me.

I know people that have made their way legitimately, and I know people that have made it questionably. I also know people that are just too caught up in their stupidity to make it out.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5483455 - 04/05/06 04:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Anyone can get a job at McDonalds, I agree. Unfortunately, there aren't many McDonalds in the projects.

There are extremely limited and, for lack of a better term, shitty opportunities for people in most black urban communities. Do you think ghettos exist because they're composed of people who want to be poor? This is hardly an apology for being a crack-dealer, but to say there is plenty of opportunies in tha ghetto seems absurd to me.




Move. The ghetto is a ghetto because the people who stay there are bums. The bums make the ghetto, the ghetto does not make the bum.


--------------------

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5483616 - 04/05/06 04:37 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

If they're too "proud", or lazy, to work a real job, then fuck em.

The majority of residents in a poor inner-city community have poor education, lack skills, and lack work experiences. The ratio of potential employees to employers is already excessively one-sided and, consequentially, these people have little hope of ever finding a steady job.

Makes no difference to me.

It's an honor to see someone so utterly unconcerned with the wellbeing of others and for his country.

Move.

Huh?

The ghetto is a ghetto because the people who stay there are bums. The bums make the ghetto, the ghetto does not make the bum.

People are born bums and then naturally congregate, forming communities and passing on the niggardly bum-genes to their offspring?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5484020 - 04/05/06 06:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Look up niggardly. It doesn't mean what you seem to think it does.

Born bums or become bums, really doesn't matter does it? However they got there, they are still bums. And yes, they do tend to flock together, for whatever reason. Black bums, white bums, pink bums, blue bums. They all have choices. Bum genes? I don't think so.



Half of the quotes you use above are not mine. "Move" Yeah, fucking move. It's easy. Just fucking do it. Go somewhere. Get a job. Show up. Feign interest. Do better. Losers wallow.


--------------------

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5484416 - 04/05/06 08:07 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:The ghetto is a ghetto because the people who stay there are bums.  The bums make the ghetto, the ghetto does not make the bum.


true, and classic  :thumbup:

Remeber that not all ghettos are occupied by blacks.  In fact where I live all the ghetto areas are filled with white trash tweakers and wetbacks.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
    #5484433 - 04/05/06 08:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I think what Mushman is getting at is that if you're born in the ghetto to a couple of bums, there's not much chance of you becoming anything other than another bum, and that's not entirely due to genetics.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5484435 - 04/05/06 08:14 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:There are extremely limited and, for lack of a better term, shitty opportunities for people in most black urban communities. Do you think ghettos exist because they're composed of people who want to be poor? This is hardly an apology for being a crack-dealer, but to say there is plenty of opportunities in tha ghetto seems absurd to me.


That depends on how you define "opportunity". Sure compared to rich people in Cali. or New York they have less opportunity. But comparing them to the elites is not valid. Compared to the average person in the world/throughout history they have enormous opportunity, more than most humans could ever dream of. If I had a choice to be born in an american ghetto, or to be born in some random time/place, I would definitely choose the ghetto.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
    #5487138 - 04/06/06 05:38 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

But comparing them to the elites is not valid.

I didn't compare poor inner-city communities to 'the elites', nor anyone else for that matter.

Compared to the average person in the world/throughout history they have enormous opportunity

Such as?

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5487219 - 04/06/06 06:05 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Born bums or become bums, really doesn't matter does it?

Whether you're arguing people are born bums (Calvinism) or become bums is incredibly important.
If someone is naturally born unwilling to do work, contradictory to evolutionary psychology, then, in essence, you seem to be arguing for the bum-gene. For some reason, these people gather together and create an isolated community. This causes the natural tendency to be poor and lazy to continue relentlessly. Poverty by predestination.
The other option is a community, for whatever reason, decided to be lazy and become poor. The people in this area chose not to earn a living, but rather immerse themselves in poverty. Poverty by volition.
(But, unless we assume they wanted to be poor, this still doesn't answer why they decided to become so.)

In either case, you're blaming the poor for being poor.

"Move" Yeah, fucking move. It's easy. Just fucking do it. Go somewhere. Get a job.

Go where? Get what job?

Edited by MushmanTheManic (04/06/06 06:06 PM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5487299 - 04/06/06 06:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:Compared to the average person in the world/throughout history they have enormous opportunity

Such as?


Such as visiting a public library and learning about virtually any subject they want, for free, for as long as they want. Such as attending a community college that is subsidized by the rich people, and gaining skills in whatever field they want (also probably for free considering the millions of dollars for education that are offered to poor minorities only). Such as saving the money they earn from their shittie job and moving to a place where the better jobs are. Such as investing time in their community to make it a better place for all who live there. They also have the oppurtunity to do none of that and live a life simply for themselves, getting high, or just sitting in the project watching TV.

They have oppurtunities, they simply have to take them. Not everyone who is born in the ghetto dies there, many do take them... others do not. This is in contrast to the norm of human existance, where you are born in a set position in society and have no oppurtinity to change. There are hundreds of millions of farmers in china alone who actually have zero oppurtinity. They were born farmers, they toil for meager sustenence and they die as farmers.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5487322 - 04/06/06 06:50 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Born bums or become bums, really doesn't matter does it?

Whether you're arguing people are born bums (Calvinism) or become bums is incredibly important.




I'm obviously not arguing either. Nor do I think it's important. You may think it important from a prescriptive, that is how do you fix it, sense, but it is not the least bit important to the argument of whether there are opportunities to improve. There are plenty.
Quote:




If someone is naturally born unwilling to do work, contradictory to evolutionary psychology, then, in essence, you seem to be arguing for the bum-gene. For some reason, these people gather together and create an isolated community. This causes the natural tendency to be poor and lazy to continue relentlessly. Poverty by predestination.





That seems to be YOUR contention, not mine. Hence my impatience with whiners who do nothing to improve their own lot.

Quote:



The other option is a community, for whatever reason, decided to be lazy and become poor. The people in this area chose not to earn a living, but rather immerse themselves in poverty. Poverty by volition.
(But, unless we assume they wanted to be poor, this still doesn't answer why they decided to become so.)




This is the "sociology trap." Communities don't "decide" anything. Individuals do. Communities just happen from individuals deciding how they will exist and coalescing with like minded individuals. Anthropomorphizing a sociological construct is fallacious Children start there but can leave when they mature. Now, I will admit that if you grow up in a pimp family you will probably see pimpdom as your lot in life. But that perception is not caused by the world at large, it is caused by your immediate environment. In this country, there is plenty of opportunity to escape those bounds. You do have to take the initiative and the way to do that is to MOVE.
Quote:



In either case, you're blaming the poor for being poor.




In most cases it is correct. I work in construction and pretty much every loser sob story can be traced back to some jackass behaviour by the "victim". The truly hard luck story is very rare indeed. Further, the best way to ruin your life is to have a child you can't afford. This is a terribly destructive decision and it is endemic to ghettos.
Quote:



"Move" Yeah, fucking move. It's easy. Just fucking do it. Go somewhere. Get a job.

Go where? Get what job?




I live very close to NYC. I will train and employ anybody who wants to work and those with brains will leave me to form their own company. Upstate NY is practically Alabama but I can't get anybody to leave to come work. That's why the Mexicans are doing all the work. And they aint cheap around here. $10 an hour cash. Anybody who buys the bullshit that they pay taxes is a fucking moron. I won't hire them because of the communication issue but I sincerely believe that there is no excuse whatsoever for being able bodied and unemployed. Nope. Ghetto dwellers mostly want to be ghetto dwellers.


--------------------

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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
    #5487635 - 04/06/06 08:01 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Such as attending a community college that is subsidized by the rich people



:laugh:

Do high literacy rates and public education appall you? Don't worry. King George seems to be creating a welfare state for the wealthy where tax cuts for the upper echelon of society are given the "breaks" they desperately deserve while funding for the hideousness of public education and health care are being gutted. Your dream may soon materialize.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: bukkake]
    #5487771 - 04/06/06 08:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Whats my dream?  :confused:

As far as I know community college is still 2/3 subsidized by the federal govt.  Is this not the case anymore?

Im simply saying that the system where the rich subsidize the poors education gives the poor opportunities.  I know, because if it wasn't for the rich subsidizing community colleges, I could never afford to have gone.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
    #5487782 - 04/06/06 08:29 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

He's assuming things about you. You know what they say about assuming...

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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
    #5487818 - 04/06/06 08:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
As far as I know community college is still 2/3 subsidized by the federal govt. Is this not the case anymore?



It is. But to say it is "subsidized by the rich" is insane. It is collectively funded by all.

Quote:

He's assuming things about you. You know what they say about assuming...



I know what they say, but you don't.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: bukkake]
    #5487836 - 04/06/06 08:45 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
As far as I know community college is still 2/3 subsidized by the federal govt. Is this not the case anymore?



It is. But to say it is "subsidized by the rich" is insane. It is collectively funded by all.


Well its not subsidized by me or my family. My wife and I paid $44 in federal taxes for 2005, we dont subsidize shit. As far as I know we still have a sliding tax scale in America. A very steep sliding tax scale, where the very few pay the vast majority of taxes. With that fact in mind, I think its safe to say that the rich subsidize the poor's education. Its a noble thing to do, they deserve their props for it, and as one of the poor who benifit from it I am very grateful.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: bukkake]
    #5487988 - 04/06/06 09:26 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
while funding for the hideousness of public education and health care are being gutted.




Gutted my ass. He signed the Medicare prescription drug plan into law (old people get their pills paid for by the government now). He did snip a little out of Medicaid (free health care for poor people), but not a lot. I haven't seen anything about education funding being "gutted".

Basically, all of the free stuff that old and poor people were getting before....they are still getting.

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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5488169 - 04/06/06 10:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Born bums or become bums, really doesn't matter does it?

Whether you're arguing people are born bums (Calvinism) or become bums is incredibly important.
If someone is naturally born unwilling to do work, contradictory to evolutionary psychology, then, in essence, you seem to be arguing for the bum-gene. For some reason, these people gather together and create an isolated community. This causes the natural tendency to be poor and lazy to continue relentlessly. Poverty by predestination.
The other option is a community, for whatever reason, decided to be lazy and become poor. The people in this area chose not to earn a living, but rather immerse themselves in poverty. Poverty by volition.





I say that the answer isn't A or B, but C: They didn't choose to be bums, but rather they simply haven't chosen not to be bums.


Also, people want company in the things that do. They don't want to be all alone or left behind. If a person who thinks that he or she is incapable of escaping the ghetto sees someone who is trying to get out, they may discourage them. These peopole don't want to see others get out because then their excuses are gone. They don't want to hear ways to improve their lot because it quite frankly makes them look bad. People like this will badger and bully a peer that may be trying to escape their situation. They will say things like, "What, you can't handle it here", or "So, you think you're going to be better than all of the rest of us and work you're way out of here". They will discourage educational endeavors and belittle those who try to learn. After all, it's not cool to study and make good grades.

Is this giving anybody an idea about how all of this escalates into the larger picture. Pressure to join the collective is great and many who try to resist are ridiculed and bullied. Those who do make it out do not come back, leaving drug dealers and gang bangers as the only role models. They have it all in the ghetto. The kids never see Mr. Johnson, who grew up in the ghetto, made his way through college, and now works at a bank, put on his coat and tie, and head off to work in the morning. That guy now lives in the suburbs.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
    #5488190 - 04/06/06 10:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
As far as I know community college is still 2/3 subsidized by the federal govt. Is this not the case anymore?



According to Senator Durbin it's around 1/3. Saw that on C-SPAN today, but who knows how he may have been spinning numbers.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5491609 - 04/08/06 12:32 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Who says that the right to bear arms is to protect any minorities or small groups? It's for the nation as a whole

You tend not to get persecution of the nation as a whole. You get persecution of minorities.

then I believe that you'd be surprised what guerrilla warfare could accomplish.


No question about guerilla warfare. But guerilla warfare has nothing whatsoever to do with having gunshops.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5491915 - 04/08/06 03:11 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Who says that the right to bear arms is to protect any minorities or small groups? It's for the nation as a whole

You tend not to get persecution of the nation as a whole. You get persecution of minorities.



Tell that to the black majority in South Africa who had to live under the apartheid government.

Quote:

No question about guerilla warfare. But guerilla warfare has nothing whatsoever to do with having gunshops.



As a general rule of thumb, it's easier to fight a guerilla war if you have easier access to firearms.


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5492117 - 04/08/06 07:36 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Keep trying.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5492169 - 04/08/06 08:32 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I havn't even had to try so far.

Any answers to the questions?

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
    #5492498 - 04/08/06 11:12 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The poor subsidize the rich by recognizing their property "rights".

They should be grateful. Some of them are.


--------------------
This space for rent

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5492512 - 04/08/06 11:17 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I would rather see every American armed to the teeth and hardly any military at all under the control of the government.

Doesn't that make more sense then the huge invasion machine we have now?


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This space for rent

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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5493627 - 04/08/06 04:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Who says that the right to bear arms is to protect any minorities or small groups? It's for the nation as a whole

You tend not to get persecution of the nation as a whole. You get persecution of minorities.



As of yet no one is being persecuted. Besides that, the right to bear arms is a protection of all Americans against the government. If the government clearly shows signs that it is becoming more than a democracy, then the gun owner will be there.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5495447 - 04/09/06 01:58 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Drug users arn't persecuted? Locking people in jail, throwing them out of their jobs isn't persecution?

What is persecution in your book?

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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5495825 - 04/09/06 08:01 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

vote!


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5495832 - 04/09/06 08:03 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Drug users arn't persecuted? Locking people in jail, throwing them out of their jobs isn't persecution?

What is persecution in your book?



We have choice to do drugs or not.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5496137 - 04/09/06 10:30 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

So if the persecutor says you can't own guns anymore and starts throwing you in jail then he is justified because "it is our choice whether to carry guns or not"?

Doesn't that defeat the whole point of your argument?

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5496335 - 04/09/06 11:50 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

There are plenty of democracies where guns are illegal, I wouldnt consider the citizens of those places persecuted. They are just more vulnerable if/when the real persecution starts.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
    #5496834 - 04/09/06 02:50 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

What do you mean by "real" persecution?

Why hasn't gun ownership among drug users in america resulted in more tolerant drug laws?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5496957 - 04/09/06 03:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Because if they try to use them they will be shot down like mad dogs. Gun use by the entrepreneurs in the field are mostly against the competition and not the gendarmes. Army of dopers? Puhleeze.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5792023 - 06/26/06 10:23 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

bump


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