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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
#5487138 - 04/06/06 05:38 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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But comparing them to the elites is not valid.
I didn't compare poor inner-city communities to 'the elites', nor anyone else for that matter.
Compared to the average person in the world/throughout history they have enormous opportunity
Such as?
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5487219 - 04/06/06 06:05 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Born bums or become bums, really doesn't matter does it?
Whether you're arguing people are born bums (Calvinism) or become bums is incredibly important. If someone is naturally born unwilling to do work, contradictory to evolutionary psychology, then, in essence, you seem to be arguing for the bum-gene. For some reason, these people gather together and create an isolated community. This causes the natural tendency to be poor and lazy to continue relentlessly. Poverty by predestination. The other option is a community, for whatever reason, decided to be lazy and become poor. The people in this area chose not to earn a living, but rather immerse themselves in poverty. Poverty by volition. (But, unless we assume they wanted to be poor, this still doesn't answer why they decided to become so.)
In either case, you're blaming the poor for being poor.
"Move" Yeah, fucking move. It's easy. Just fucking do it. Go somewhere. Get a job.
Go where? Get what job?
Edited by MushmanTheManic (04/06/06 06:06 PM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5487299 - 04/06/06 06:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:Compared to the average person in the world/throughout history they have enormous opportunity
Such as?
Such as visiting a public library and learning about virtually any subject they want, for free, for as long as they want. Such as attending a community college that is subsidized by the rich people, and gaining skills in whatever field they want (also probably for free considering the millions of dollars for education that are offered to poor minorities only). Such as saving the money they earn from their shittie job and moving to a place where the better jobs are. Such as investing time in their community to make it a better place for all who live there. They also have the oppurtunity to do none of that and live a life simply for themselves, getting high, or just sitting in the project watching TV.
They have oppurtunities, they simply have to take them. Not everyone who is born in the ghetto dies there, many do take them... others do not. This is in contrast to the norm of human existance, where you are born in a set position in society and have no oppurtinity to change. There are hundreds of millions of farmers in china alone who actually have zero oppurtinity. They were born farmers, they toil for meager sustenence and they die as farmers.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5487322 - 04/06/06 06:50 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Born bums or become bums, really doesn't matter does it?
Whether you're arguing people are born bums (Calvinism) or become bums is incredibly important.
I'm obviously not arguing either. Nor do I think it's important. You may think it important from a prescriptive, that is how do you fix it, sense, but it is not the least bit important to the argument of whether there are opportunities to improve. There are plenty.
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If someone is naturally born unwilling to do work, contradictory to evolutionary psychology, then, in essence, you seem to be arguing for the bum-gene. For some reason, these people gather together and create an isolated community. This causes the natural tendency to be poor and lazy to continue relentlessly. Poverty by predestination.
That seems to be YOUR contention, not mine. Hence my impatience with whiners who do nothing to improve their own lot.
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The other option is a community, for whatever reason, decided to be lazy and become poor. The people in this area chose not to earn a living, but rather immerse themselves in poverty. Poverty by volition. (But, unless we assume they wanted to be poor, this still doesn't answer why they decided to become so.)
This is the "sociology trap." Communities don't "decide" anything. Individuals do. Communities just happen from individuals deciding how they will exist and coalescing with like minded individuals. Anthropomorphizing a sociological construct is fallacious Children start there but can leave when they mature. Now, I will admit that if you grow up in a pimp family you will probably see pimpdom as your lot in life. But that perception is not caused by the world at large, it is caused by your immediate environment. In this country, there is plenty of opportunity to escape those bounds. You do have to take the initiative and the way to do that is to MOVE.
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In either case, you're blaming the poor for being poor.
In most cases it is correct. I work in construction and pretty much every loser sob story can be traced back to some jackass behaviour by the "victim". The truly hard luck story is very rare indeed. Further, the best way to ruin your life is to have a child you can't afford. This is a terribly destructive decision and it is endemic to ghettos.Quote:
"Move" Yeah, fucking move. It's easy. Just fucking do it. Go somewhere. Get a job.
Go where? Get what job?
I live very close to NYC. I will train and employ anybody who wants to work and those with brains will leave me to form their own company. Upstate NY is practically Alabama but I can't get anybody to leave to come work. That's why the Mexicans are doing all the work. And they aint cheap around here. $10 an hour cash. Anybody who buys the bullshit that they pay taxes is a fucking moron. I won't hire them because of the communication issue but I sincerely believe that there is no excuse whatsoever for being able bodied and unemployed. Nope. Ghetto dwellers mostly want to be ghetto dwellers.
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
#5487635 - 04/06/06 08:01 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Such as attending a community college that is subsidized by the rich people

Do high literacy rates and public education appall you? Don't worry. King George seems to be creating a welfare state for the wealthy where tax cuts for the upper echelon of society are given the "breaks" they desperately deserve while funding for the hideousness of public education and health care are being gutted. Your dream may soon materialize.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: bukkake]
#5487771 - 04/06/06 08:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Whats my dream? 
As far as I know community college is still 2/3 subsidized by the federal govt. Is this not the case anymore?
Im simply saying that the system where the rich subsidize the poors education gives the poor opportunities. I know, because if it wasn't for the rich subsidizing community colleges, I could never afford to have gone.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 6 months, 28 days
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
#5487782 - 04/06/06 08:29 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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He's assuming things about you. You know what they say about assuming...
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
#5487818 - 04/06/06 08:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: As far as I know community college is still 2/3 subsidized by the federal govt. Is this not the case anymore?
It is. But to say it is "subsidized by the rich" is insane. It is collectively funded by all.
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He's assuming things about you. You know what they say about assuming...
I know what they say, but you don't.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: bukkake]
#5487836 - 04/06/06 08:45 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
bukkake said:
Quote:
DieCommie said: As far as I know community college is still 2/3 subsidized by the federal govt. Is this not the case anymore?
It is. But to say it is "subsidized by the rich" is insane. It is collectively funded by all.
Well its not subsidized by me or my family. My wife and I paid $44 in federal taxes for 2005, we dont subsidize shit. As far as I know we still have a sliding tax scale in America. A very steep sliding tax scale, where the very few pay the vast majority of taxes. With that fact in mind, I think its safe to say that the rich subsidize the poor's education. Its a noble thing to do, they deserve their props for it, and as one of the poor who benifit from it I am very grateful.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: bukkake]
#5487988 - 04/06/06 09:26 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
bukkake said: while funding for the hideousness of public education and health care are being gutted.
Gutted my ass. He signed the Medicare prescription drug plan into law (old people get their pills paid for by the government now). He did snip a little out of Medicaid (free health care for poor people), but not a lot. I haven't seen anything about education funding being "gutted".
Basically, all of the free stuff that old and poor people were getting before....they are still getting.
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Ekstaza
stranger than most


Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5488169 - 04/06/06 10:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Born bums or become bums, really doesn't matter does it?
Whether you're arguing people are born bums (Calvinism) or become bums is incredibly important. If someone is naturally born unwilling to do work, contradictory to evolutionary psychology, then, in essence, you seem to be arguing for the bum-gene. For some reason, these people gather together and create an isolated community. This causes the natural tendency to be poor and lazy to continue relentlessly. Poverty by predestination. The other option is a community, for whatever reason, decided to be lazy and become poor. The people in this area chose not to earn a living, but rather immerse themselves in poverty. Poverty by volition.
I say that the answer isn't A or B, but C: They didn't choose to be bums, but rather they simply haven't chosen not to be bums.
Also, people want company in the things that do. They don't want to be all alone or left behind. If a person who thinks that he or she is incapable of escaping the ghetto sees someone who is trying to get out, they may discourage them. These peopole don't want to see others get out because then their excuses are gone. They don't want to hear ways to improve their lot because it quite frankly makes them look bad. People like this will badger and bully a peer that may be trying to escape their situation. They will say things like, "What, you can't handle it here", or "So, you think you're going to be better than all of the rest of us and work you're way out of here". They will discourage educational endeavors and belittle those who try to learn. After all, it's not cool to study and make good grades.
Is this giving anybody an idea about how all of this escalates into the larger picture. Pressure to join the collective is great and many who try to resist are ridiculed and bullied. Those who do make it out do not come back, leaving drug dealers and gang bangers as the only role models. They have it all in the ghetto. The kids never see Mr. Johnson, who grew up in the ghetto, made his way through college, and now works at a bank, put on his coat and tie, and head off to work in the morning. That guy now lives in the suburbs.
-------------------- YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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daimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
#5488190 - 04/06/06 10:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: As far as I know community college is still 2/3 subsidized by the federal govt. Is this not the case anymore?
According to Senator Durbin it's around 1/3. Saw that on C-SPAN today, but who knows how he may have been spinning numbers.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Ekstaza]
#5491609 - 04/08/06 12:32 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Who says that the right to bear arms is to protect any minorities or small groups? It's for the nation as a whole
You tend not to get persecution of the nation as a whole. You get persecution of minorities.
then I believe that you'd be surprised what guerrilla warfare could accomplish.
No question about guerilla warfare. But guerilla warfare has nothing whatsoever to do with having gunshops.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
#5491915 - 04/08/06 03:11 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: Who says that the right to bear arms is to protect any minorities or small groups? It's for the nation as a whole
You tend not to get persecution of the nation as a whole. You get persecution of minorities.
Tell that to the black majority in South Africa who had to live under the apartheid government.
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No question about guerilla warfare. But guerilla warfare has nothing whatsoever to do with having gunshops.
As a general rule of thumb, it's easier to fight a guerilla war if you have easier access to firearms.
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Ekstaza
stranger than most


Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
#5492117 - 04/08/06 07:36 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Keep trying.
-------------------- YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Ekstaza]
#5492169 - 04/08/06 08:32 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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I havn't even had to try so far.
Any answers to the questions?
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 7 hours, 36 minutes
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: DieCommie]
#5492498 - 04/08/06 11:12 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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The poor subsidize the rich by recognizing their property "rights".
They should be grateful. Some of them are.
-------------------- This space for rent
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit!
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
#5492512 - 04/08/06 11:17 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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I would rather see every American armed to the teeth and hardly any military at all under the control of the government.
Doesn't that make more sense then the huge invasion machine we have now?
-------------------- This space for rent
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Ekstaza
stranger than most


Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
#5493627 - 04/08/06 04:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: Who says that the right to bear arms is to protect any minorities or small groups? It's for the nation as a whole
You tend not to get persecution of the nation as a whole. You get persecution of minorities.
As of yet no one is being persecuted. Besides that, the right to bear arms is a protection of all Americans against the government. If the government clearly shows signs that it is becoming more than a democracy, then the gun owner will be there.
-------------------- YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Ekstaza]
#5495447 - 04/09/06 01:58 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Drug users arn't persecuted? Locking people in jail, throwing them out of their jobs isn't persecution?
What is persecution in your book?
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