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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5467154 - 04/01/06 11:24 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Throwing people in jail for taking drugs isn't tyranny?

Ok, so give me an example of what you'd consider tyranny.

Then again, don't bother. I'm not that interested.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5467155 - 04/01/06 11:24 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
A lot of gun-owners make the argument that unless they have guns they would be unable to "fight tyranny".

I'm guessing this is merely a soundbite phrase that has no meaning. But if possible could any gun owners explain precisely how you would "fight tyranny" with your guns and what aspects of this "tyranny" would actually drive you to "fight" it?




This situation is hard to define. Tyranny just doesn't go from 0 to 60 overnight. It is a long and slow process. Oftentimes the citizenry doesn't even recognize what is going on.

Armed resistance doesn't just pop up over trivial things. Nobody is going to run out into the streets armed to the teeth because they can't legally smoke a joint.

I like guns because I enjoy shooting them recreationally and because I like having the ability for a reasonable self-defense. When I walk around at night I always have my gun on me. I know that I will be able to protect myself if somebody tries to mug me...or worse.

As far as "government tyranny" goes, that argument has several variables. You have made the argument in the past that it is pointless for people to own guns to protect themselves from government tyranny because the government's firepower is 100 times more deadly. How is a handgun or a shotgun useful when facing a tank or an attack helicopter? To this I answer, "it's better than nothing".

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Invisibleshriek
*********

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 3,274
Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5467191 - 04/01/06 11:37 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

actually against a tank i would rather try to surrender, wave a white flag or something than shooting at it with a .38 :P

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: shriek]
    #5467206 - 04/01/06 11:41 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

or take off to the hills and wait for a better time to fight back

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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5467257 - 04/01/06 11:52 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

For those posing the argument that if the jews had guns they would have fought back. i give you RUSSIA.
there you go.

The jews in gemany, poland, france, austria, italy, were WAY outnumbered.

for those that argue a holocaust isnt likely to happen soon, may i direct your attention to Rawanda. What makes "genocide" and "holocaust" different? simply, one is against people nobody cares about on the global scale, and the other is against the jews.

african nations are a good example of how a well-armed populace does NOT prevent tyranny in the slightest, but rather empowers illusion of cultural separation through violent means.

Whats a "shiite muslim" and a "sunni mulsim"? its basically an example of how even peoples of the exact same linniage and beleifs separate themselves categorically allong SOME line of division. sometimes this becomes terribly bloody, particularly when conflict over which branch owns the land of the common tree See "jews" and "palestine".

Really what we have is a simple responsive social construct. people behave in simple, predictable patterns. Even the most benevolent and sovreign among them will be caught up and be forced to choose sides. The construct is formed by many, complex, intelligent, and often noble units, that form together to create a community where all anomalies overlap and converge to create a simplistic commonality.

If the prudency of a solidary commonality is to be armed, then it favors to justify it's cultural independence by perceiving persecution, and subsequently, admonishing the scource therof with equal force to that perceived.
this is how bloodwars start. Nobody knows who cast the frist stone because evrybody is holding one.
Now, the problem with understanding this is single people think in terms of induvidual rights applied to the community as opposed to communal behavioral patterns applied to the individual.

and we get conflict in argument. Nobody is right because evrybody is one person. and that my brothers and sisters, is PROOF that we cannot apply a uninanimous right to bear arms to a populace for the purpose of maintaining freedom.
For the populace will inevitably treat the individual as an obstical.

If you remember ANYTHING. remember that last line.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5467352 - 04/01/06 12:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Throwing people in jail for taking drugs isn't tyranny?




No, it's not. It's foolish but it's not tyrannical.
Quote:



Ok, so give me an example of what you'd consider tyranny.


Then again, don't bother. I'm not that interested.




Ok, I won't.


--------------------

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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #5467474 - 04/01/06 01:00 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

nakors_junk_bag said:
Quote:

Alex213 said:
A lot of gun-owners make the argument that unless they have guns they would be unable to "fight tyranny".

I'm guessing this is merely a soundbite phrase that has no meaning. But if possible could any gun owners explain precisely how you would "fight tyranny" with your guns and what aspects of this "tyranny" would actually drive you to "fight" it?





The hardest part about combatting tyranny is recognizing it. I mean we live in fairly free society right now, its not perfect by all means, it could be much worse.

I supposes the things that would drive me to the point of no return would be the subjugation of the free peoples, when people were no longer allowed to work for themselves but had to work for their government.

When people were no longer allowed to voice dissent or concern.

When people were no longer allowed to roam freely, meander at will.

When these things happen, may fire fall from the sky and peirce the very souls of the opressors.

I will take aim and spray paint avenues with many enforcers life blood, I will improvise and make dow with what litwle I got. I will fight from the shadows. I will fight and run away so that I may live to fight another day.




I couldn't have said it better myself.

You keep asking what tyranny would I fight, and when somebody answers you you act like you didn't even read the post.

This is what tyranny means to me.
Whne these things start to happen I will become very violent.
When martial law is declared and roving band of pressgangs and armed enforcers start convicting me without trial then I will be pissed.

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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5467508 - 04/01/06 01:11 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Ok so you're happy to stay crawling on your bellies over the tyranny of the drug war. That's one example of tyranny we've got and the gun owners have done absolutely fuck all. Having a "well-armed populace" has proved to be of no consequence whatsoever. Bush and Ashcroft just do whatever the fuck they want and the gun-owners kneel down and gag on it.

All the way down to the BOLTS  :shocked:

So when are gun-owners going to get off their knees and DO SOMETHING?




You can't assume every gun owner has the smae ideas as I do.

A well armed populace is a very broad reaching term.
It is a fallacy to lump gun owners and drug users into the smae category, especially since most drug users probably lean left. We the gun owning drug users are probably a minority on this site.

The gun owners as you have put it, may for the majority of the time agree with them, because if you remember rightly the right is far more supportive of guns than the left.

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Offlinewilshire
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Registered: 05/11/05
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5468261 - 04/01/06 05:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

What you actually said was...

for those who seriously contend that private gun ownership does not help prevent or reduce tyranny, i ask again

note the use of the word "help". just like a constitution, freedom of the press, due process of law, or representative government, private firearm ownership helps defend liberty, but does not provide an absolute guarantee against tyranny.

you and i are equally aware of the fact that there are plenty of well armed societies living in tyranny.

your argument that the presence of armed drug users in america living under the oppression of the drug war proves that guns do not help prevent tyranny is a fallacious one. along with widespread private gun ownership, we also have a constitution, democracy, and freedom of the press in america. following the same logic of your gun argument, do you also contend that a constitution, democracy, and freedom of the press do not help prevent oppression?

answer my question alex213. which is an easier population to subdue under tyranny:

1. one with firearms
2. one which is otherwise identical to the first, but without firearms

?


--------------------


Edited by wilshire (04/01/06 08:03 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Loc: The Barricades
Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5469201 - 04/01/06 09:23 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Here's a question for you: How are you supposed to win a revolution without firearms?


--------------------

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5469863 - 04/02/06 03:04 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Here's a question for you: How are you supposed to win a revolution without firearms?






These little guys would beat guns any day of the week.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5469988 - 04/02/06 04:12 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

When martial law is declared and roving band of pressgangs and armed enforcers start convicting me without trial then I will be pissed.

Ok.

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: wilshire]
    #5470184 - 04/02/06 06:59 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
note the use of the word "help". just like a constitution, freedom of the press, due process of law, or representative government, private firearm ownership helps defend liberty, but does not provide an absolute guarantee against tyranny.



Someone's using his noggin.

Quote:

answer my question alex213. which is an easier population to subdue under tyranny:

1. one with firearms
2. one which is otherwise identical to the first, but without firearms

?



The answer is self-evident, unless one denies reality when formulating his opinions.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Invisiblebukkake
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Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5470548 - 04/02/06 11:23 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Here's a question for you: How are you supposed to win a revolution without firearms?



I have never seen a picture of Gandhi with a rocket launcher.

Much of this thread is filled with pro-gun bravado and nonsense. Comparing arms to smoke detectors? Gun ownership is about the only issue I am on the fence over, but either education or outright illegalization should be considered. Education preferred, considering how despicable government is and can worsen. The gun statistical figures in America in comparison to European countries is appalling. It is clear people in America are far too reckless and irresponsible with guns.

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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Autonomous]
    #5470608 - 04/02/06 11:50 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The answer is self-evident, unless one denies reality when formulating his opinions.

Then you'll be able to answer the following with examples proving your case:

Which minority is easiest to persecute:

a) Armed drug users
b) Unarmed drug users.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: bukkake]
    #5470614 - 04/02/06 11:52 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I have never seen a picture of Gandhi with a rocket launcher.


I think I saw him with an AK-47 once  :grin:

Clearly Gandhi isn't mentioned too much in american schools. Or the gun owners forgot it because it didn't fit into their belief system.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5470619 - 04/02/06 11:54 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I have never seen a picture of Gandhi with a rocket launcher.


I think I saw him with an AK-47 once  :grin:

Clearly Gandhi isn't mentioned too much in american schools. Or the gun owners forgot it because it didn't fit into their belief system.



If only Che Guevara had followed Ghandi's example. :rolleyes:


--------------------

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: Alex213]
    #5470894 - 04/02/06 02:02 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

which is an easier population to subdue under tyranny:

1. one with firearms
2. one which is otherwise identical to the first, but without firearms

?


--------------------


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Invisiblegiz
daydreamer
Male

Registered: 02/08/06
Posts: 651
Loc: EU
Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: wilshire]
    #5471318 - 04/02/06 04:40 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

of course option 1. but if tyranny is considered LE and that people are not allowed to use drugs than this debate is retarded. thats not tyranny. but if for real tyranny its of course easier for the "tyranns" (sp?) if the population is unarmed. but that does not mean that an unarmed population is unable to do resistance and is doomed to fail.

Edited by giz (04/02/06 05:13 PM)

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: How would gun-owners "fight tyranny"? [Re: giz]
    #5471662 - 04/02/06 06:05 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

1. the 'war on drugs' is an infringement of liberty.
2. this infringement of liberty exists in the united states.
3. there is widespread private gun ownership in the u.s., the ones being persecuted under this infringment of liberty are often armed themselves.
4. therefore, private gun ownership does not in any way help defend a people against infringements of liberty, oppression, tyranny, etc.

that is the "logic" alex213 is using while ignoring a very simple question that blankly exposes the absurdity of his position.

though it's been explained that his "logic" is as absurd as saying something like, "there is freedom of the press in america, yet drug users still put up with the oppression of the drug war, therefore freedom of the press does not help prevent tyranny or oppression", he's still clinging to that argument, also refusing to answer the question of whether or not he believes that this second statement, derived from the same "logic" as the position he is trying to defend, is correct.


--------------------


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