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OfflineACN45
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My Views on Iraq are Changing
    #5457535 - 03/29/06 10:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

At first i thought the iraq was the worst war ever, Bush just thumped his chest and blundered into a conflict that hurt the american people while he and his cronies got richer. While this is the case to an extent I have realized that the middle east will be a conflict point in the next 20 years because of oil. Oil is going to be the single defining point for my generation aside from global warming. Once peak oil occurs hell is going to break loose and every industrialized country is going to be fighting eachother. China and Russia see this thats why they are supporting Iran so much, its their Iraq without the war in a way. Its a given. If Bushs plan works and there is a peaceful and pro-american Iraq in place it will prove to be startegically invaluable. Amazingly enough I think Cheney and Bush realize this and thats why they are in Iraq. I have no problem with the Iraq war being an oil war because I am a realist. Our economy will collapse with just the hint of a fuel shortage. The real crime that Bush is doing is his policy of increased oil consumption. I feel he realizes the crisis that is going to occur yet he is doing nothing about it. Bush is still a fuckup but the Iraq war may actually be the best thing that comes out of his presidency. And anybody that has seen my posts realizes that this is a complete 180 on what i normally say.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: ACN45]
    #5457564 - 03/29/06 10:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

maybe putting more research into alternate fuel methods will be much more effective then starting war in Iraq, and since when did you think that any of Iraqs oil will make the world supply cheaper, Iraq's oil is going to pay off the reconstruction,

Of course oil will be a major conflict, can you say Iran and Venezuela.


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Offlinepeace_n_love
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5457744 - 03/29/06 11:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Exactly what The_Red_Canyon said. For

http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

that amount of money being spent you would think that if Oil was the real problem he could have put that money towards research to finding alternate oil replacements and then saved the lives of tons of people.

peacefulness.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: peace_n_love]
    #5457779 - 03/29/06 11:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Converting our energy plants, refiniries, cars, etc. might a bit more expensive than capturing oil supplies.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Offlinepeace_n_love
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: downforpot]
    #5457791 - 03/29/06 11:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Monetarilly, I think it would be almost equivelant but the price of innocent soldiers and people dying. There is no price you can put on that. Not to mention the possible beneficial environmental effect it would have on the world.

Peacefulness.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: ACN45]
    #5457831 - 03/30/06 12:13 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Oil is key to the invasion of Iraq but I'm not sure Bush is thinking along the lines of securing oil for the future of the american people. His key goal is increasing the short-term profits of a few buisness executives in the oil industry. Any problems that occur when oil runs out can be passed onto everyday people. By then the oil executives and their families will be living behind 60 foot high electrified fences and safe from any unrest. Why should they care.


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Offlinepeace_n_love
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: Alex213]
    #5457983 - 03/30/06 01:13 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well put Alex, I think that that is all the bush administration and many others are worried about. The short term gain no matter the long term loss. Depressing but true.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: ACN45]
    #5458003 - 03/30/06 01:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

As much as this invasion was evil, an immediate pull out would simply be cruel for Iraqis. It would probably piss them off in the sense that it was some kind of cruel joke.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: ACN45]
    #5458062 - 03/30/06 02:02 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I have come to pretty much the same conclusion. The decision to go to war on Iraq seems totally insane except in the context of the coming oil/energy crisis. Then it makes perfect sense. It's incredibly immoral of course, but that never stopped anyone before. Historically, most wars have been fought over scarce resources but explained to the people at the time as a noble effort. The people don't learn the true motivations until the history books have been written.

One of the first acts of the Bush admin's first term was the formation of the secret Energy Task Force, remember? The issues discussed there must have been incredibly important to them given the fact that it was dealt with immediately. What could have been so important regarding energy that it was dealt with first and in secret? Hmmmm..


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: zorbman]
    #5458194 - 03/30/06 04:28 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

> What could have been so important regarding energy that it was dealt with first and in secret?

$$$$$'s and more $$$$$'s


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: ACN45]
    #5458581 - 03/30/06 08:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ACN45 said:
At first i thought the iraq was the worst war ever, Bush just thumped his chest and blundered into a conflict that hurt the american people while he and his cronies got richer. While this is the case to an extent I have realized that the middle east will be a conflict point in the next 20 years because of oil. Oil is going to be the single defining point for my generation aside from global warming. Once peak oil occurs hell is going to break loose and every industrialized country is going to be fighting eachother. China and Russia see this thats why they are supporting Iran so much, its their Iraq without the war in a way. Its a given. If Bushs plan works and there is a peaceful and pro-american Iraq in place it will prove to be startegically invaluable. Amazingly enough I think Cheney and Bush realize this and thats why they are in Iraq. I have no problem with the Iraq war being an oil war because I am a realist. Our economy will collapse with just the hint of a fuel shortage. The real crime that Bush is doing is his policy of increased oil consumption. I feel he realizes the crisis that is going to occur yet he is doing nothing about it. Bush is still a fuckup but the Iraq war may actually be the best thing that comes out of his presidency. And anybody that has seen my posts realizes that this is a complete 180 on what i normally say.




If you think this is going to help us economically, we have spent an estimated not 500 million, not 500 billion, but one trillion dollars on the Iraq war that has so far made us nothing. If anything we can hope the oil there can cover some of the war costs. But nomatter how you look at it, Haliburton gained. They profited. It's actualy a business method, I forget the name, but it starts with an E. What you do is find a third party to take the burden of work in order to increase profit. Haliburton had the connect to do this with Iraq. And their profits boomed while america seeped into debt. They basically let a corporation run America, and by run I mean fucked in the ass.


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


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Offlinepeace_n_love
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5459040 - 03/30/06 10:50 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Haliburton profited not to mention companies like Lockheed & Martin and other arms dealers and manufacturers. Everybody in the Bush administration seems to be taking very good care of their close friends.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: ACN45]
    #5459436 - 03/30/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So are you saying that you oppossed the war until you found out that Bush may be protecting the country from poverty, then you decided it was ok?

I kind of understand that. The idea of another great depression is pretty frightening. I just don't think that even comes close to justifying this war. Especially when you look at how things are turning out. If the only way to keep America's current economic system in place is to go invade countries, kill people, and then put corrupt governments into power just so they will sell us oil, then personally I don't want to be a part of America's economic system. I'd rather be poor.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5459462 - 03/30/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
I'd rather be poor.



You say that now, but would you hold fast in your principles when your choice for meals was rats or the dead guy on the corner?


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: daimyo]
    #5459469 - 03/30/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

or you have two children staring up at you with those large innocent blue eyes, wondering why they are going to bed hungry for the third nite in a row.


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Asshole


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5459495 - 03/30/06 12:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
So are you saying that you oppossed the war until you found out that Bush may be protecting the country from poverty, then you decided it was ok?

I kind of understand that. The idea of another great depression is pretty frightening. I just don't think that even comes close to justifying this war. Especially when you look at how things are turning out. If the only way to keep America's current economic system in place is to go invade countries, kill people, and then put corrupt governments into power just so they will sell us oil, then personally I don't want to be a part of America's economic system. I'd rather be poor.





Buddy, I didn't have shit when I came to this country. Now my family has a house, 3 cars, free college. I WILL KILL FOR AMERICA. This country is the motha fucking shit, PERIOD


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: ACN45]
    #5459551 - 03/30/06 01:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

that is good that you are beginning to understand the stakes.

The only thing I wish done differently is the way in which the war was communicated to us. The pretense, it really made me angry.
We have a right to know, we are a strong people and a people able to hear the truth.


--------------------
Asshole


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: daimyo]
    #5459689 - 03/30/06 01:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Quote:

gluke bastid said:
I'd rather be poor.



You say that now, but would you hold fast in your principles when your choice for meals was rats or the dead guy on the corner?




See I just don't agree that a collapse in the economy means the end of the world. Everybody thinks that mass poverty in the US would be like the apocalypse and we'd have to go around eating each other's corpses. Over 90% of the world lives in povery, they don't eat each other. We didn't eat each other during the great depression. It was a hard time, but we got through it. I guess I'm just more optimistic.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #5459703 - 03/30/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

nakors_junk_bag said:
or you have two children staring up at you with those large innocent blue eyes, wondering why they are going to bed hungry for the third nite in a row.




All the more reason not to have children.

You'll never get me to say that financial security is more important to me than my morals, and my morals obligate me to oppose the Iraq war. I'm not scared of poverty. I'm not scared of dying. I'm scared of giving in to fear and letting it cloud my sense of justice and who I am.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineTurn
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5460071 - 03/30/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
See I just don't agree that a collapse in the economy means the end of the world.




Were talking about OIL! It is the world! Without oil there is nothing, no production, nada.

But as to the topic: Yeah your right, mayby it will all work out, alot of people argue we invade Afganistan for oil too. There is alot of oil in central asia, but no easy way to get it out, and the Afgani goverment was too unstable to put a pipeline through, but now that we have military bases scatterd through...


Edited by Turn (03/30/06 02:46 PM)


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: ACN45]
    #5460295 - 03/30/06 03:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I have no problem with the Iraq war being an oil war because I am a realist.



Or imperialist.

And empire and imperialism will only get the US so far. I would be shocked if the thought of middle and lower income Americans crossed Bush's mind at all when they were planning the conquest of Iraq's oil, or if he would even give a shit if the "economy" collapsed. Every oilman in his administration is profiting from the war at the American's expense. America has a second satellite in the Middle East and a new land to plunder.


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OfflineACN45
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: bukkake]
    #5461056 - 03/30/06 06:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Im not saying that the thought of middle and lower income people crossed Bushs mind, but in the long run he might have stumbled into something that actually does help everyone in the US. Even though the Iraq war is based off of greed and lies, it may turn out to be extremely valubable. And the world as we know it WILL end once the oil runs dry. We will literally be sent back to the stone age. The only difference is that we will have all of this knowledge and know how things work yet have no way of using this technology. Its really going to be something and I am scared of it. Its going to take a couple of miracles in a row to avoid this catastrophe and its not lookin like they are gonna come. You have to look at the sheer volume of cars, trains, planes, boats, power plants, etc. Everything revolves around oil, our whole industry. It is going to cost trillions and trillions of dollars to re-outfit our infrastructure. It just isnt gonna happen. Read www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net


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Invisibleshriek
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: ACN45]
    #5461193 - 03/30/06 06:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

oil is everything, i heard that usa is gonna import 10% from some new gas production here in northern norway, 10% doesnt sound like alot but its billions actually for norway in income. im always glad when america and the rest of the world needs gas and oil from norway. creates lots of working places here and increases our wealth and welfare more than most, if not all, other western countries. but it sucks that us also steals oil in the name of whatever elsewhere, thats not an honorable way to do buisness.

i dont think were ending in the stone age if oil stops, well here in this country there is an oil fund for when the oil stops and will help us out for a good time. but i belive in new technology, what would really suck is if no new technology has developed until the day the oil runs out. wich means we dont envolve much in technology concidering that oil based industry or whatever havent shaped the world at all just a part of our recent history, the future should hold some better technology than gas based enegty or oil based motors and so on. we need to make them spaceships or whatever that goes on h2o :smile: usa should maybe invest even more in alternative energy and new technology, i know nothing about how much us spends on this, but im sure if the money used in iraq or any other war, was instead spent on more research and stuff, it would have been a better investment for future generations. im gonna stop rambling now,


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5461205 - 03/30/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
maybe putting more research into alternate fuel methods will be much more effective then starting war in Iraq, and since when did you think that any of Iraqs oil will make the world supply cheaper, Iraq's oil is going to pay off the reconstruction,

Of course oil will be a major conflict, can you say Iran and Venezuela.




Yep. I'm pretty sure 400 billion + put into that alternative fuels would have been much more effective.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5463124 - 03/31/06 08:45 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Over 90% of the world lives in povery,



Source?

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
they don't eat each other.



Without the US there'd be a lot less aid, and a lot more drastic measures though.

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
We didn't eat each other during the great depression. It was a hard time, but we got through it. I guess I'm just more optimistic.



We were able to come out of that depression. No oil, no production, no coming out.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5463923 - 03/31/06 01:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I feel, my morals say to me it is ok, its darwinism and I am fine with that. The strong live to copulate and proliferate their genes and agendas, thus feeding the evolutionary machine, which may one day breed a rae of humans that far surpass our current status.

Its and ideal, and its crazy, it is also entirely plausible with some faith and fortitude.


--------------------
Asshole


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InvisibleJonPathetic
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. [Re: ACN45]
    #5468628 - 04/01/06 07:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

.


Edited by JonPathetic (05/10/06 05:56 PM)


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: JonPathetic]
    #5468657 - 04/01/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

anyone who doesn't read up on scientific discoveries will buy everything that site says.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibleJonPathetic
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. [Re: downforpot]
    #5468676 - 04/01/06 07:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

.


Edited by JonPathetic (05/10/06 05:57 PM)


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OfflineACN45
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: JonPathetic]
    #5469459 - 04/01/06 10:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yea what "scientific discoveries" are you talking about? I think what that site is trying to say is that whatever new diccoveries there are wont matter because we have already invested so much money in an archaic infrastructure based off of oil. Even if, say, solar arrays are put on the bright side of the moon, or some other energy source is found, the money it will cost to change our entire infrastructure to support and distribute that new form of energy will ruin the world economy. I really believe its only a matter of time.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: ACN45]
    #5469560 - 04/01/06 11:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ACN45 said:Even if, say, solar arrays are put on the bright side of the moon, or some other energy source is found


What side is that?

sorry couldnt resist :offtopic:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: ACN45]
    #5470592 - 04/02/06 11:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If Bushs plan works



At this point, that's a pretty big "if." I might support the war effort too if I thought we knew what we were doing, but we appear to be at a stalemate. It just seems to me that right now, we're fucked no matter what we do.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: Silversoul]
    #5470778 - 04/02/06 01:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

And we are building permanent bases there. Basically Bush is going to make sure that we don't puss out. He is going to make sure that future presidents stay there and deal with the situation.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Offlinewookie
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: Silversoul]
    #5470779 - 04/02/06 01:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I look forward to the "Mad Max" style of living. It will be fun.. haha


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-=* dUMb \/\/00kIe *=-


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: wookie]
    #5470905 - 04/02/06 02:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Most of the people on these boards would die off in a "Mad Max" world.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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OfflineACN45
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: DieCommie]
    #5471149 - 04/02/06 03:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

ACN45 said:Even if, say, solar arrays are put on the bright side of the moon, or some other energy source is found


What side is that?

sorry couldnt resist :offtopic:




I dont get it? The moon does not rotate. There is a dark side, and a bright side(when the earth doesnt get in the way of the Sun) Is there a scientfic term that I didnt use that makes me look ignorant?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: ACN45]
    #5471207 - 04/02/06 04:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The moon rotates. It's period of rotation is such that it always presents the same face towards the earth. Rotational period is equal to it's revolutional period. This, however, has nothing to do with the face it presents toward the sun, which is the source of all direct, significant lumination in the solar system. This is why there are phases of the moon. Like the earth, the moon receives equal solar illumination on all of it's surface (well, it does vary in terms of equatorial distance, but you get my drift). There is no dark "side" of the moon.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: ACN45]
    #5471217 - 04/02/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

zapp is exctally right. The dark side of the moon is only a pink floyd album, nothing else. If you want to be technically correct, there is a "far side" and a "near side" of the moon.

again, sorry for off topic


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Offlinekotik
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: DieCommie]
    #5471534 - 04/02/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)



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OfflineACN45
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: kotik]
    #5472473 - 04/02/06 09:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yes, my dad had been telling me about Brazil and their energy independece. I also saw it on Bill Maher last night. It angers me more than anything. It shows how ignorant the people are that are running this country. If Brazil can see enough in the future to strategize for energy independence, what were our leaders doing? Its really a testament to how lame and corrupt our government is because tehy have continually bowed down to big oil. This oil fiasco is going to be the greatest challenge to our country and to think that it could have been avoided if our politicians had not of been so selfish and corrupt is very angering if you think about it. The average people like us are the ones that this is going to affect the most.


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OfflineACN45
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5472477 - 04/02/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

good stuff. I did not think that there was a bright side of the moon because of Pink Floyds album, I had really been told that. If i had actually of thought about it instead of being a sheep it would not have made sense at all. Oh well, a little ignorance is gone now.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: My Views on Iraq are Changing [Re: kotik]
    #5472613 - 04/02/06 10:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
brazil has been doing quite well without oil, or at least being independent from importing energy

http://today.reuters.com/business/newsAr...-ETHANOL-DC.XML

http://www.midiaindependente.org/pt/blue/2006/03/349201.shtml

http://www.newsone.ca/hinesbergjournal/stories/index.php?action=fullnews&id=168862

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000086&sid=asgYlZndLMe4&refer=latin_america

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C04%5C02%5Cstory_2-4-2006_pg5_31




Actually American car companies are starting to make flex fuel cars too. So we are not that long away from using the same fuel as brazil.


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