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OfflineDICK
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Down with the system!!
    #5453490 - 03/28/06 10:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

This is a question for all you people out there... After watching the movie V for Vendetta (if you havent seen it, go...NOW) I wondered... What if someone actually brought anarchy to all of us? Well for the sake of the argument, lets not say total anarchy but more like freedom.

What if a freedom fighter like no other arose and fought for the people using terrorist tactics (be aware that this exactly what V did, so by terrorist, erase all negative connotation) to overthrow this oppresive system that only gets worse each day? Would you side with him? Support him? Or be against him?

His/her motive wouldnt be to then become 'president'/dictator and take over the country... his motive would be pure and simple... to bring true freedom to the people who live in this land and to let them shape the country as they, THE people see it right... as a TRUE democracy

Discuss.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: DICK]
    #5453499 - 03/28/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

man if the redneck crackhead proletarian masses of this country tore down the government, the new government erected shortly thereafter would probably be a million times worse.

sad but true


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Offlinenotapillow
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5453520 - 03/28/06 11:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

true
dont worry the earth will take care of us
one way or another


--------------------




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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: DICK]
    #5453529 - 03/28/06 11:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

  • Define freedom
  • Explain the means that would be used to obtain the end


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineDICK
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: daimyo]
    #5453590 - 03/28/06 11:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

By freedom I mean, living by the constitution that we have so severely adultered through history...

Or living without the constitution but by a set of moral codes every human should follow... A consciense

I know it sounds impossible, but thats because we are so used to this governement. Weve become complacent... And we only feel 'pressured' by it when it attacks us personally.


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OfflineTattoo
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: DICK]
    #5453617 - 03/28/06 11:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well that isn't exactly total freedom- the end result of anarchy would have to end with some semblance of order for people to survive outside of an alpha male/group gatherer scavenger society. I say total freedom needs to be earned in order to provide perspective, so you kind of have to bite the bullet and implement some level of social order- the most lenient being, don't kill me, don't steal from me-


--------------------
:dancing: one nigga run, two nigga run :runaway: :runaway:


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: daimyo]
    #5453633 - 03/28/06 11:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DICK said:
By freedom I mean, living by the constitution that we have so severely adultered through history



  • What amendments, if any, stay?
  • Whose interpretation will we go by?


Quote:

DICK said:
Or living without the constitution but by a set of moral codes every human should follow... A consciense



  • Who decides what is moral, and what is not?
  • More to the point, what is moral, and what is not?


Quote:

daimyo said:
Explain the means that would be used to obtain the end




--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineDICK
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: Tattoo]
    #5453668 - 03/28/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

of course of course... and even though I wish to fully believe in anarchy, I know its imposible since there are truly bad people out there tht live to cause others harm. But, part of it is governement induced fear.

Imagine a place where if it so required, there is a leader... Not a dictator, not a king, president etc... But a leader of all people. A wise man does not seek power to himself but promotes advancement in society. Instead of a country where instead of sex, drugs violence and degrading social behavior is promoted in movies music etc... A land where people spend half their days working a dead end job and whole of their freetime glued to a tube... Imagine a place where the potential of each individual is encouraged.

This is only skimming the suraface... But the idea is there.

Oh and just to make things clear, Im not saying "ban all degrading music and entertainment..." this things will continue to exist but over time people themselves will 'mature'...


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OfflineDICK
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: DICK]
    #5453690 - 03/28/06 11:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Basic human rights... ammendments that we can all as one person agree on.

Or reinvent the wheel if we must, but as one voice.

I know it sounds farout to believe that we can all agree on one thing specially considering were all different but, I believe if we were all to sit down and rationalize... we could all reach that goal.

Many of todays mistakes are due to media misinformation and manipulation... with all that gone, I know in the core of it all, people as a whole just want the best.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: DICK]
    #5453701 - 03/28/06 11:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Are you sidstepping, or did you not understand my questions? I apologize if any clarification is necessary, but I will be more than happy to provide it.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineEmpTyCLosEtSpAcE
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: DICK]
    #5453740 - 03/29/06 12:02 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I support any action that causes chaos/turmoil within ANY govt. Say "V" swoops down and does his thing, I'll support him. Hands down, I'll be marching right up along side him. But V isn't real and I don't trust any human to take power, then give it up or accept responsibility for the way he TOOK power. Machiavelli said a good leader must sink into evil from time to time as circumstances dictate, but must also step back out and be held accountable for his actions no matter WHAT the circumstance. How often does THAT happen? A society based on morality, respect, helping others, etc is all fine and good. But until we've evolved to the point where deciding WHO'S morality and idea's on respect we are to abide by is no longer an issue, it's IMHO complete fiction.


--------------------
I can't imagine what the cops are going to think when they come in and see a couple hippies on some guy covered in puke and shit screaming i'm dying as we tell him it's ok he'll like it.-Chinacat72


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OfflineMuppet69_420
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: EmpTyCLosEtSpAcE]
    #5453830 - 03/29/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Regardless of what anyone might say this country the "USA" or possibly other countries as well are so corrupted a revolution is needed, I personally dont like people here where iam standing against immigrations laws. Though thats not an issue in this topic.. im just saying :P. A revolt will come one day most likely leading to a civil war. There has to be the way this countries going. Or mother nature will do its work sometime in the future and it wont be nice to us or at least not entirely nice. The problem is is our heart bleeding liberals who go for mostly everything the gov. does or some stupid shit like these people against immigration laws, which is benefitting the rich more or just and putting some people in the mid class out of business. People need to stand up and start fighting back but people IMO are too afraid and those who are acknowledging these things are too few. I would stand with a individual like V.


--------------------
Quote:

I live to learn and learn to live.

forget w/e was here b4 it was meth gibberish.... :meff: :rail2: :rail: ....thats as old as my account...

On that note fart in public and grin. :publicfart:

Hail Shroomery!




Edited by Savako (03/29/06 12:42 AM)


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OfflineDICK
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: daimyo]
    #5454736 - 03/29/06 11:06 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Are you sidstepping, or did you not understand my questions?  I apologize if any clarification is necessary, but I will be more than happy to provide it.




did i answer it with the post just above it? if not, explain :smile:


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: DICK]
    #5454775 - 03/29/06 11:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You say you define freedom as living by the constitution. I am asking what exactly you mean. The original, or as it is in it's present state? Or would you leave out some amendments?
On this same subject, I am asking whose interpretation of the constitution, and it's amendments(if you're leaving them), are we, as a society, to go by?

You also mention living by a set of moral standards. I asked "Who decides what is moral, and what is not?" in your society. I also asked "what is moral, and what is not?" in an attempt to gain insight on your personal beliefs in hopes of furthering this discussion.

And finally, I asked you to "Explain the means that would be used to obtain the end". In other words, what methods will be used to in this revolution? Will people die? Buildings be blown up? Psych ops? Etcetera.

All I can get from your statements thus far are general comments about wanting a utopian society where everyone has a say. This has been hashed over for thousands of years. I think most can agree it would be nice in general, but I am after the specifics of your dream.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: daimyo]
    #5454778 - 03/29/06 11:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

We just need a government who will allow us to do what we wish, as long as we do not harm others.


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #5454780 - 03/29/06 11:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Which would first require that all human beings be capable of doing what they want without harming others..

And yes, we're capable..

But is it probable?
Nah.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #5454792 - 03/29/06 11:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not advocating a system of gov't that is for all practical purposes anarchy. Those who harm others would still be prosecuted under law just as they are now. The difference would be that those who do not hurt others will be left alone.


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #5454793 - 03/29/06 11:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Who decides what hurts who else?


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #5454797 - 03/29/06 11:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Physical harm is obvious when it manifests itself and can be decided on a case by case basis, at it is now.


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #5454801 - 03/29/06 11:28 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What about stalking someone?


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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OfflineDICK
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #5454820 - 03/29/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Not one man will decide the outcome of all others... It will be all united into one voice that decide 'what stays' and 'what goes'. Is it really that hard?

I know we might never agree totally into one thing or another... But by communicating I KNOW we can reach an understanding.

Same thing for the set of standards... We as humans are already born with a conscience... But through life, we often callouse it, so even though we have one, its uneducated. Make sense?

The means of getting there.

Only that, time will tell :smile:

But isnt it worth fighting for?


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OfflineDICK
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #5454861 - 03/29/06 11:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
We just need a government who will allow us to do what we wish, as long as we do not harm others.




Of course...! isnt it just ridiculous how many silly rules there really are out there?

Legislators will only legislate

Here are just some from the state of california and city of los angeles I live in:

It is illegal for a man to beat his wife with a strap wider than 2 inches without her consent.
You cannot bathe two babies in the same tub at the same time.
You may not hunt moths under a street light.
It is illegal to cry on the witness stand.
Toads may not be licked.
details
Explanation
The toad that is referenced in this law secretes a poison that some people were licking to produce an effect like heroin to become "high".

I mean, it even sounds like a joke!!

This government is only but one single minded strict parents that wont let their kid play ball outside because they 'can scrape your elbows' they say they mean well for him... but in the end their just smothering him..

The kid well just retaliate in the future.

Thats how rebels are born


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OfflineinoculatedGreif
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: DICK]
    #5454869 - 03/29/06 11:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thats what is messed up about this world. Its all about control.(if anyones seen instinct you know what im talking about.) But the thing is no one has control to start with. its an illiusion. some one might think they have control over you, but whats to stop someone from killing them in their sleep? that means there was no control, or it wouldnt have happend. just like the goverment. they assume they have control over the shit they do, but if that was true, why does it leak out to the public? because they never had control. its an illusion..
this worlds messed up..


--------------------
one branch of man turns away what has made us who we are, the other,excepts it for how its made man. which path do you choose?
-------------------------------------
Man takes advantage of who he is,nature is his home, where he evolved from. So why does he turn it down, defy, and mutalate his birth ground? why does he spread disease, murder his native animals,rape and torture his land, and still feel descent of who he is? live a life that is not true? excepts an artificial home?


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: DICK]
    #5454881 - 03/29/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DICK said:
Not one man will decide the outcome of all others



What of this terrorist/freedom fighter?  Is he not deciding the outcome?

Quote:

DICK said:
It will be all united into one voice that decide 'what stays' and 'what goes'. Is it really that hard?



Yes.  Why do you think these thoughts of revolution are in your mind?  It is impossible for all to unite and decide what is right or wrong on all issues.  IMPOSSIBLE.

Quote:

DICK said:
I know we might never agree totally into one thing or another... But by communicating I KNOW we can reach an understanding.



What good is an understanding?  Someone will always be plotting to have it their way unless everyone is happy.

Quote:

DICK said:
Same thing for the set of standards... We as humans are already born with a conscience...



Source?

Quote:

DICK said:
But through life, we often callouse it, so even though we have one, its uneducated. Make sense?



I get what you're saying.

Quote:

DICK said:
The means of getting there.

Only that, time will tell :smile:



Then it is impossible for me to decide if I am with, or against, your leader.

Quote:

DICK said:
But isnt it worth fighting for?



We still haven't sufficiently established what "it" is in my opinion.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Invisiblewery67564
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: daimyo]
    #5455099 - 03/29/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"it" in my calloused and subjective opinion, is the ability to live out ones life, without another entity or human being having say in what actions one takes, as long as one does not harm the persons or property of another human being. This means limiting government to a central economic power, and having an enforcer role to the extent of all crimes not consensual. This means if an action that damages ANOTHER persons property is commited, without the consent of said victim, the government takes action only against commiter of crime. If, however, two agree to the destruction of their own persons or peoperty in a socially or perhaps a governmentally recognised contract, no crime is commited. On the same note, if one commits an act of destruction against ones self or property it is consensual with the said individual and not a crime. All crimes of emotional damage are null and void, unless there is physical evidence of the destruction of persons or property.

That is freedom to me. And it takes care of all those rednecck crackhead assholes, they can get together and do whatever they want, as long as they don't destroy persons or property. And then we can trip balls all year long and live on sustainable farms, as long as we don't hurt somebody or their property we don't get in trouble.

How this affects drug sales, any sale is a contract between buyer and seeller, so any bodily harm from said substance was buyers fault, not sellers, thus no crime commited. However, any substance given to said buyer that was not previously agreed upon (baking soda in yer coke) makes the seller commit a crime, if of course damage is incurred.

Another big plus, if you can directly show that big corporation "X" is producing tetrafluorocarbons in the air, and prove he is hurting people or their property, its a crime, bye bye "X".

I have though hard and long on this, and I think this philosophy will stick with me regardless of my political preference or spiritual beliefs throughout my life...meh...

But remember, this is totally idealism, and I am an idiot.

**edited because...well..you know why...


Edited by wery67564 (03/29/06 01:02 PM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: DICK]
    #5456891 - 03/29/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


His/her motive wouldnt be to then become 'president'/dictator and take over the country... his motive would be pure and simple... to bring true freedom to the people who live in this land and to let them shape the country as they, THE people see it right... as a TRUE democracy





There was a big popular movement, particularly around the start of the 20th century to establish a government where everyone was equal. Everyone shared everything, had the same advantages, and nobody dominated one another. Most advocated violently overthrowing the government to establish this wonderful new government.

Of course as soon as the government was overthrown, someone took control, and as with pretty much every single violent overthrow of a government, no matter what the original intentions are, it turns into a horrible dictatorship where all dissenters are killed.

You can't get the entire population of a country to agree on one way to run things. It just doesn't happen. So once you use violence to try and impose YOUR way of doing things, people are going to try to stop you, and many of them will be very well intentioned people, and the only way to take control will be to kill them.

So you're going to be killing off perfectly decent people left and right.

Most people go through a phase where they feel that the way things are run is terrible, and something needs to be done, at any cost to change things. They don't realize that the society we live in may seem shitty, but compared to ANYTHING in the past it is miles ahead.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineDICK
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: Phluck]
    #5457506 - 03/29/06 10:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

...ive been thinking alot about that... man why cant we humans just agree on one thing all together??

that one thing would be, DONT BOTHER ME PLEASE

i mean, if along as what were doing isnt causing harm of any kind to someone else, does everything else really matter?

we need to learn how to keep ourselves away from everybody else. wars in reality start over the SILLIESTS of things... one of the world wars was started because of the murder of ONE man. Millions die each day and  millions other are born. does anybody give a fuck?

perfect harmony sounds like a thing of fiction...

or hippies

:smirk:


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OfflineAnimals
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Re: Down with the system!! [Re: DICK]
    #5457508 - 03/29/06 10:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i haven't read anything in this post but yeah, i feel ya. Fuck the system or something!


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