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Invisiblearlenewasag13
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LSD crystal purity
    #5448684 - 03/27/06 07:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

This has always stumped me...........we all know the pyramid of LSD neeedlepoint, fluff, silver, lavender etc... So my question(s) is how do you get different crystals and why are some cleaner than others? Are they washed a certain number of times to reach purity level. Are the number of washes indicative to the color of crystal...........ie 1 wash gives you amber and maybe 5 spins gives you the fluff and a lot less yeild. Anyone in the know want to shed some light on this subject? Another ?? Why do chemists even distibute shit like amber or the like? ....LSD should be made out of love and not fear....
Just curious would this washing technique be use with a centrifuge of some sort? or chromo. This spins or washes out the impurities? Last good batch I have been associated with was for Terrence Mckenna memorial in 2000. We had a raw ger at 333ug kept a 250 ug for the head and the rest was around a 100 mics. Me and others were thinking silver but many claimed that it was the fluff daddy. Many hugs and thanks were handed out for the medicine sharing. I didnt make a dime except to help out with traveling exspenses and tickets prices ALL viz and no body........oh and by the way L has never beena $$ thing just a passing of the torch. Maybe its time to get blind folded again so I can spread the love and love the panic

1love


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Invisiblearlenewasag13
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: arlenewasag13]
    #5449573 - 03/27/06 11:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

mods should this be moved to another forum ?

I cant access china cat 72's thread LSD crystal to blotter. Can

somebody post a link?


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Invisiblesui
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: arlenewasag13]
    #5449591 - 03/27/06 11:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

youd just see page restricted or something, if you clicked the link.


stick around youll get it soon enough.


--------------------

"There is never a wrong note, bend it."
Jimi Hendrix



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Invisiblearlenewasag13
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: sui]
    #5449699 - 03/28/06 12:15 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

cool thanks sounds like some good reading


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OfflineTaco Chef
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: arlenewasag13]
    #5450112 - 03/28/06 06:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

yeah its worth teh wait


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Invisiblearlenewasag13
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Re: LSD crystal purity *DELETED* [Re: Taco Chef]
    #5451797 - 03/28/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by arlenewasag13

Reason for deletion: stupid question



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OfflineQuantumMeltdown
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: arlenewasag13]
    #5451904 - 03/28/06 04:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Have you seen a raw gram? Theres people here that may have or may not have seen one but I don't know if they would flat out admit it on a message board. To answer you first question about purity I think that it has alot to do with the skill of the chemist to arrive at a pure product in the first place then secondly "wash" or further purify through some crazy shit which I have no idea how it works like chromatography or some shit. I think a great deal of the larger batches released where indeed fairly pure especially from the major chemists like sands, owsely and the like. I think when things started getting shitty is when the mob got involved after the whole scene blew up. There is indeed very pure stuff still in circulation today so who knows?


--------------------
-QuantumMeltdown

Total abstinence is so excellent a thing that it cannot be carried to too great an extent. In my passion for it I even carry it so far as to totally abstain from total abstinence itself.
  -Mark Twain

"The time has come the walrus said, little oysters  hide their heads, my Twain of thought is loosely bound I guess its time to Mark this down, Be good and you will be lonesome
Be lonesome and you will be free
Live a lie and you will live to regret it
That's what livin' is to me
That's what livin' is to me"
Jimmy Buffett


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Invisiblearlenewasag13
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: QuantumMeltdown]
    #5452025 - 03/28/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I bet the mob really had nothing to to with LSD at all.....lol cmon the mob has other things to run that are much more lucrative. Money is the reason theres shitty grades of L.......no doubt about it. Which is very ironic since LSD and money should be exact polarities of each other. Im deleting that post.......sorry just assumed were all at a safe house via the internet. Oh by the way I dont have my buckle yet ........ a few of my friends do


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OfflineQuantumMeltdown
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: arlenewasag13]
    #5452065 - 03/28/06 05:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

No its actually been well documented that organized crime got involved with LSD the Captain actually turned some of them in.


--------------------
-QuantumMeltdown

Total abstinence is so excellent a thing that it cannot be carried to too great an extent. In my passion for it I even carry it so far as to totally abstain from total abstinence itself.
  -Mark Twain

"The time has come the walrus said, little oysters  hide their heads, my Twain of thought is loosely bound I guess its time to Mark this down, Be good and you will be lonesome
Be lonesome and you will be free
Live a lie and you will live to regret it
That's what livin' is to me
That's what livin' is to me"
Jimmy Buffett


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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: QuantumMeltdown]
    #5452139 - 03/28/06 05:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Where there are drugs, ther are black markets
where there are black markets, there are mob-ties


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Offlinemopsss
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: kaniz]
    #6382418 - 12/18/06 08:20 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

the mobsters will lower the quality. dont like them


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Invisibleblissedout
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: mopsss]
    #6382438 - 12/18/06 08:37 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

That's because the mob cares nothing about the self exploration that lsd inspires. They only care about distribution and control of said distribution. As to whether or not they are responsible for the appearance of the amber, it's nearly impossible to say.


--------------------



:murray:


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OfflineChemiker
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: arlenewasag13]
    #6383636 - 12/18/06 03:41 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

arlenewasag13 said:
This has always stumped me...........we all know the pyramid of LSD neeedlepoint, fluff, silver, lavender etc... So my question(s) is how do you get different crystals and why are some cleaner than others?


I will attempt to answer this and dispell some of the totally ridiculous myths I have heard about LSD crystal purity.

First of all, I would like to point out that I am an x-ray crystallographer. My who job consists of crystallizing molecules. When I worked in organic synthesis, we used crystallization as a purification technique. When it comes to biomacromolecules, crystallization is much more difficult and you are far more likely to come across polymorphs.

The reason that different crystal forms of the same substance can exist, even if they are of the exact same purity, has to partly do with the kinetics of nucleation and crystal growth. Essentially, when a crystal is growing it is trying to arrange itself into a three-dimensional lattice with a minimum of energy. Biomacromolecules are more likely to exibit different crystal forms because they can arrange themselves into lattices of similar energy in a number of different ways. With small molecules like LSD tartrate, there are less ways that the crystal can arrange itself into a stable fashion, so it is less likely that you will run into polymorphs.

So, why do polymorphs exist? Some crystal forms will have approximately the same energy, but sometimes crystallization occurs fast or slow. If crysallization occurs quickly, then the crystal form which has the lowest potential energy barrier to overcome during its growth will be prefferred. However, if crystallization occurs slowly and is reversible, then the thermodynamically most stable crystal form will be preferred. There could then be a mix of kinetic vs. thermodynamic crystal forms in between the two extremes.

Those are not the only two factors in crystallization, even for the exact same substance. Solvation is known to play a role in crystallization, so often solvent molecules will be hidden in the intermolecular spaces of a crystal and will show disorder (and these buggers are damn hard to find sometimes with diffraction data). Solvation can also affect the kinetics of crystallization. That is, with one solvent, crystal form A might be kinetically preferred with one solvent but another solvent might prefer crystal form B.

It is entirely possible to have two very different looking crystals of the same substance with essentially the same purity, just as it is entirely possible to have two similar looking crystals of the same substance with very different purity. You can't tell just by looking!

However, even LSD is known to show crystal polymorphism. This means that, absolutely pure LSD tartrate exists in more than one crystal form.

Please see:

Neville, G A. et al. USP lysergic acid diethylamide tartrate (Lot I) authentic substance recharacterized for authentication of a house supply of lysergide (LSD) tartrate. Can. J. Appl. Spect. 37, pp. 149 - 157. (1992)

In fact,
However, according to our experience more than 50% of various EA derivatives examined within the last few years exhibit two or even more crystalline forms.

from:
Kren, V. and Cvak, L. (eds). Ergot: The Genus Claviceps. Harwood Academic Publishers, 1999. p.285.

EA = "ergot alkaloid"

Furthermore, I will say this. The idea that someone can tell crystal purity by visual inspection alone is complete and utter bullshit. I have seen substances that usually crystallize into beautiful pure white crystals precipitate as purple coloured garbage under the exact same conditions (as far as I can control for, at least). Of course, my first thought upon seeing something like that, is "Oh, my sample sucks. I may as well get rid of it." Further analyses can be very surprising. In this case, it was less than 2% impurity disrupting the crystallization process and adding the purple colour.
I have also seen beautiful crystal that give such garbage diffraction patterns that the purity must have been far below 50%, even though the crystal looked just like the pure ones that gave good diffraction data.

I suggest that you take the "needlepoint, fluff, etc." reports with more than a few grains of salt. It's complete nonsense.


Edited by Chemiker (12/18/06 06:45 PM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6383980 - 12/18/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Very interesting read Chemiker thanks for that.

All that being said the purer you make the crystal, the less weight you'll have since you don'T have the added weight of the impurities. And of course the high quality crystals could be laid into more liquid so that when you dip the sheets the dose will obviously be weaker.

Hell imagine if you were a chemist and didn'T have a very big chemistry background, but just enough to make lsd, and one day you finally managed to make it, would you really be able to contain yourself and purify it as much as it will go? i know that if i'd be in a situation such as that i'd be shaking too much with excitement to do anything in the lab for a good while ^_^

All the above is thoughts and speculations, correct them if anything is clearly wrong but pleaes don'T attack me for my ignorance =)

SaCa


--------------------
Beauty of style and harmony and grace and good rhythm depend on Simplicity ~Plato


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OfflineChemiker
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: SapphireCat]
    #6384127 - 12/18/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

SapphireCat,

in organic chemistry anything over a 95% yield is considered "perfect" and it's not at all unusual to be very, very happy with 80% yields. But, yes, if you calculate a theoretical yield, which is the amount you'd get if you had 100% yield in every step and your crystal weighed more than that, then you'd know there are impurities present.

The thing is that with an LSD synthesis, or any synthesis for that matter, the yields have probably been reported in the literature. So, as long as you reproduce the conditions from the paper you're using as a reference, you can be pretty sure that your end product will have a similar yield.

What I'm more or less trying to get at is that if you had two crystals that weighed, say 0.5 grams, but both were crystallized using different solvents and they both looked nice but just different, you can't really be sure which is more pure just by looking. They might be equally pure, or they might not. Now, generally in organic chemistry, crystallization is a purification technique so the "nicer" (yes, I mean "prettier") a crystal looks, the more sure you can be that it's of high quality.

This isn't always true though. Like I said, crystallization or recrystallization is a purification technique, which ends up wasting some product (but that could be recrystallized too and so forth). Sometimes a substance just doesn't seem to crystallize, which doesn't mean that you don't have a pure substance. Other times you might not get crystals at all, even with a perfect synthesis because of either an impurity* or something simple like dropping the temperature too fast.

* What I mean is that all of your starting material was converted to the product that you want, but something else is still sticking around.

Generally, with something the size of LSD, if you simply can't get the damn thing to crystallize that means that your sample is impure, but you don't know what the impurity is. The impurity might simply be an excess of tartaric acid or methanol, which isn't going to have much effect. You might still have made an absolutely perfect batch of LSD, but you can't get rid of the solvent molecules or some other small molecule that got picked up along the way. You wouldn't really know how much impurity you had just by looking.

So, say you did a by-the-book LSD synthesis and you knew that normally the yield is 89%, which in your case should give you 2.5 g of LSD, but your crystals add up to 2.7 g. You know that you've got some impurity in there, but what is it? It could just be a little solvent (this is often the case, especially with larger molecules).

Also, even if you ignore the "what does the crystal look like?" question and you know you've got some impurity in there, you can say to yourself, "Well, I followed the procedure exactly, so I probably have around an 89% yield." You can just adjust for the added impurities when laying out your blotter. Let's say you don't want to make that assumption and you try the synth again and you recrystallize from a different solvent, but this time you can't even get crystals, just precipitate (i.e. powder). You might have a pure batch of LSD right in front of you, so what happened? The solvent was interfering with crystallization. Maybe the temperature was dropped to fast. Maybe the crystal experienced some mechanical stress during growth and the stress caused so much disorder that your crystal looks really unusual (sometimes you get crystals that look like other crystals are growing from inside them and sometimes this happens to such a large extent that your crystals look like mess).

In the end, there are really far better ways than examining a crystal to determine purity. I have to shoot damn x-rays at my samples to get any idea of how pure they are and I doubt that underground labs are going to have diffractometers.

The best idea is to take the crystal, use a simple method to determine the quantity of LSD (ie. the purity) and then simply recrystallize it. You'll still have the same amount of LSD, regardless of what your crystals look like.

EDIT -

Now, don't get me wrong here. Many small molecules will crystallize in only one way, especially under the same conditions. That's never a guarantee that you know their purity by visual inspection, but in some cases it is a good indication of it. LSD, though I would call it a small molecule, is still large enough that I see solvation as a potential problem and don't think that visual inspection of crystals is at all meaningful. Also, think about this: I've never seen an analysis of purity of any substance done according to visual inspection of crystals, period. And, like I also said, I have seen beautiful crystals that are garbage and garbage "crystals" (ie. precipitates) that are of excellent purity. Crystals, for small molecules can often be a good indicator of purity, but it's not that reliable. Also, even if you end up finding out that the crystal (or precipitate) you have is only 50% pure, what does it matter if your impurity is something like methanol or tartaric acid? Half your crystal would still be pure LSD.

And I think that, is essentially my point. Though examining a crystal visually can sometimes be a good indicator of purity, it doesn't at all tell you what the impurities are. You could still have done an absolutely perfect synthesis and gotten garbage crystals with only 40% LSD, but what does that matter if the other 60% doesn't have any effect?


Edited by Chemiker (12/18/06 07:01 PM)


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OfflineChemiker
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6384219 - 12/18/06 07:08 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

One last thing and I'll dig up the reference for this later (I don't feel like it now).

Colour, when there should be no colour, clearly means that there are impurities, but some substances are really highly coloured. As in my example above, even less than 5% impurities can totally change the colour of a sample.

In the case of LSD, many ergot alkaloids are known to dimerize, I think at the two position. The organic chemists in the crowd should be able to figure out what the effect of dimerization would be: extension of the pi system. What else does that do? Reduces the HOMO-LUMO gap. Meaning? The photons that the dimer absorbs will be of lower energy than plain old LSD. This means that the dimer will appear coloured.

Ergot alkaloid dimers are known to be dark purple or black in appearance. So, the appearance of purple or black in the crystal suggests that some of the product has dimerized. Still, even less than 5% of this stuff in the product could change an otherwise beautiful clear LSD crystal to a purple or black mess! Throwing away such a product would be a waste!


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Invisibleblissedout
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6386146 - 12/19/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Wow! Those are some well worded and very intelligent posts! Thanks for that!


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:murray:


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OfflineChemiker
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: blissedout]
    #6386730 - 12/19/06 02:08 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I guess one thing I should point out is this:

say you did the same synthesis in the same way a bunch of different times and you crystallized the product the same way a bunch of different times. If you had crystals of different appearance, of course you could determine their purity and this would give you a rough guide as to the correspondence between purity and crystal appearance. It would still, however, only be a rough guide and subject to a lot of error.

For example, if your main crystals were well characterized, 20 times over and they were consistently of high purity, then you could be pretty confident that the next time you saw those crystals under the same conditions, they're of similar purity. If the 'junk' you collected from the recrystallization gave different looking crystals and you assed their purity 20 times over and they were of the similar purity, then of course you could be pretty confident about purity the next time you saw them (provided all of the conditions are the same).

When it comes to the types of LSD crystal I've heard about though, I've never seen anybody describe how any type of crystal had its purity determined in the first place (it just seems to be an assumption). The only assays of purity I've ever seen have been bioassays, which are not (at all!) anywhere near reliable. You're talking about someone trying to assay the purity of a psychedelic drug, when they know beforehand what the crystal looks like.

I mean, honestly, just think about this: you do two syntheses. One gives beautiful crystals. One gives black precipitate. They could both be 95% pure. Are you really going to tell me that you would not be biased to believe that something was wrong with the black ppt? And you honestly think that upon ingesting them, your subjective experience would be in no way affected by that bias? Even though you're under the influence of the most potent hallucinogenic drug known to man?

Or, even if you did assay it's purity, and found that the black stuff was 60% pure and the nice crystal 98%, do you believe that wouldn't influence the effects in some way?

To be reliably convinced that the statements about needlepoint, fluff, etc. are anywhere near accurate and reliable, you would want to know that: (1) the synthetic method used was exactly the same each time. I don't just mean almost exactly. I mean exactly. Down to the same solvent and everything. (2) The different crystals or precipitates resulting from the synthesis and purification had already been well characterized by RELIABLE methods.

So, even if one synthesis, under certain conditions, produces a specific type of crystal (or ppt.) when it's X% pure, doesn't mean that a similar looking crystal (or ppt.) from a different (or even very similar) synthesis is amywhere near X% pure.

I hope that's clear.


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Invisibledaytripper05
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6387058 - 12/19/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

chemiker, some of the best posts I have seen from you. Well said.


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Offlineomnicrap
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: daytripper05]
    #6387236 - 12/19/06 04:17 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

those were very interesting and informative posts, chemiker


--------------------
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We toured to the north, south, east and west
We sold some mushroom tea, we sold some ecstasy
We sold nitrous, opium, acid, heroin and PCP
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: omnicrap]
    #6387406 - 12/19/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Great posts indeed.

Additionally, it should be said that the quality of the crystal should have absolutely no influence on the potential "strength" of a hit on paper, unless you're making the assumption that one of the impurities has a psychoactive effect when combined with an amount of lsd.

Even if you've got some gram of disturbingly low, 33% lsd, it would not be impossible to get 600ug of your mixture on a hit, meaning 200ug of actual working lsd. Few would consider this a weak dose.

I've just heard too many times, "ah, I took two and it didn't do anything. That's probably because it's supposed to be from amber (or insert crystal name) crystal." The truth is that profit margins or sheet laying slip-ups determine your blotter strength. There's nothing stopping anyone from laying 40ug hits of 95%+ crystal.


--------------------
You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!


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Invisiblemoecat
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6387533 - 12/19/06 06:08 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Great comments Chemiker. Thanks!


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OfflineChemiker
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6387823 - 12/19/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Koala Koolio said:
unless you're making the assumption that one of the impurities has a psychoactive effect when combined with an amount of lsd.


Right and part of the point is that a "bioassay" is not really a reliable way to tell if those impurities have an effect. Now, of course, it's possible that an impurity could have an obvious effect. I mean, if you notice that your heart rate is going at 180 bpm, then you should probably consider contamination by a by-product as being likely.

In the case of LSD, you have to consider that since LSD has been the most potent hallucinogen known since its effects were discovered in 1943, that the chances of a byproduct having an effect at a similar dose are going to be very low. In the 63 years since 1943, there have been a handful of drugs known to bind 5-HT2A with the affinity similar to LSD (I'm thinking dragonfly and bromodragonfly). Those drugs were produced using rational drug discovery methods, with computational models and so forth. A byproduct from an LSD synthesis is going to be an LSD derivative, many of which have already been explored. Even if one of those byproducts is active, usually your byproducts aren't making up more than 50% of your sample (and if they are, I suggest you quit the synthesis game). It's really, really unlikely that someone is going to accidentally produce a byproduct that is pharmacologically active in that range.

And like I was saying with example of eating two different looking crystals, I think you have to acknowledge that it's just human nature to be biased in this fashion. I deal with crystals on a daily basis, but I'm sure that if I did two LSD syntheses, I'd prefer to eat the pretty looking cystal over the black precipitate (even though I rationally know better!). This is a powerful psychedelic drug we're talking about. I think it's pretty obvious that the most likely explanation for many differences between the two hypothetical crystals would be placebo (AKA "set and setting").

The only reliable way, with human experimentation, to establish if the pharmacological differences were due to an impurity or not would be to do blind tests on a range of users. If there were a consistent difference between the two samples in that case, then you could start pointing the finger at impurities.

Major problems in studying the subjective effects of psychedelic drugs is that (1) their effects are variable, even for the same user with the same dose and the same substance under the same condition and (2) their effects are subjective, so they're very hard to classify into discrete pharmacological terms.

I've always been interested in this kind of thing and could go on at length about it, but I often ask myself the same questions: Why do different people interpret the effects of the same drug in such different terms? Why can same person perceive such variable effects from the same drug on two different occasions? I think that the answer doesn't lie in the pharmacology of the drugs per se, but lies within the user. Unfortunately, a lot of people equate the word "placebo" with "imagined" or something like that, but that's an oversimplification. Personally, I don't think that "placebo" is even the right word to explain these differences.

I think it's related to something far more fundamental in the human experience. It's the same reason why one day, your favourite book might be Slaughterhouse Five and a year later, you might hate the book. It's the same reason that you're able to shift from seeing Dali's The Three Ages as a simple collection of three faces one moment and then a much more complex tableau the next moment. Perception is all about how we interpret the raw information fed to our senses. Under the influence of a psychedelic drug, perception is radically altered and that includes our own perception of what that drug is doing.

EDIT - I didn't want it all in bold.


Edited by Chemiker (12/19/06 10:06 PM)


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Onlineashfiken
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6387849 - 12/19/06 07:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

haha yea the chemiker posts are really informative and nicely profound... i loved them i just wish i had more of a scientifical mind so i could better understand them... but omnicrap thats a sick ass verse u got under that post damn old SUBLIME from the second hand smoke cd actually if im at all correct could b 40 oz idk i have both and listen to both enough to not be able to necessarally differ between the two wen teh dont come out of my disc changer :mrt:


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Edited by ashfiken (12/19/06 07:38 PM)


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6387870 - 12/19/06 07:43 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I'm impressed.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: ashfiken]
    #6388449 - 12/19/06 10:05 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

ashfiken said:
i loved them i just wish i had more of a scientifical mind so i could better understand them...


If there is something that you are not clear on, then please ask. If you don't understand it then others probably don't either.

Remember, I had to learn how to talk the talk and walk the walk too, so there was a point in my life when I "didn't get" any of what I'm saying now. If you need help understanding a concept or a term or anything in one of my posts, please feel free to ask.

The unfortunate thing is that crystals haven't been studied all that well. Even modern journals still have articles answering questions like, "Why do some crystals bend?" The reason that questions like this haven't been answered so well is because people like me need high quality crystals in order to get the data we need, so we just discard the garbage crystals without thinking twice. So, it's people like me who notice that crystallization is still not too well understood, but since our research isn't involved in understanding the properties of crystals in general, we just use "hit or miss" methods to get good crystals (at least in my field, protein crystallography).

Chemical engineers probably have a pretty good understanding of crystallization. Chemists more or less only need a basic understanding of how it works. I think that as sooner or later, with all the people working in protein crystallography, we'll start to understand crystallization really well. It is pretty funny and telling, to see journal articles from this year trying to answer questions about crystals that seem so basic.

Another thing I forget to mention is pretty important when it comes to different forms of LSD crystals having different effects. It is well known in the pharmaceutical industry that different crystal polymorphs of the same drug can have different pharmacological effects. Some crystals might dissolve more rapidly than others, which affects their distribution in the body. Some crystals might not dissolve as well as others, which can decrease their biological availability. The irony of this is that it's possible for a 100% pure crystal of a drug in one crystal form to result in less drug entering the body than a less pure crystal in a different form! This probably goes against all conventional wisdom that "LSD is LSD is LSD." It's entirely possible that some crystal polymorphs of LSD aren't absorbed by the body as easily or quickly as others.


Edited by Chemiker (12/19/06 10:56 PM)


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Onlineashfiken
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6388685 - 12/19/06 11:37 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

wow thx chemiker i completely understood all of that last post. i guess i just yearn to grasp exactly how everything works with lsd but i doubt i will ever truly know. not ever being very competent of chemistry myself im sure has something to do with it. as a matter of fact now that you mention chemical engineers i do know one pretty well he actually works at a place called chemglass and i know he used back in the day so... maybe ill give him a shot talkin first hand to someone might help me a little bit better. although i still do stick with my first statement that all of your information is fantastac, chemiker. maybe if i also do a little more research on my own as well on lsd then i could have a better understanding from both you and my chemical engineer friend and then can bring together both of what you two say in order to get a more commplete picture... Thanks so much again chemiker


--------------------
hmm...

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"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: ashfiken]
    #6395775 - 12/22/06 12:23 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Does acid degrade if it's on paper, or does that only happen in solution? What does acid turn into when it degrades?


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: moecat]
    #6403741 - 12/27/06 11:26 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

In solution, LSD will isomerize to iso-LSD, although apparently the equilibrium concentration is 10% iso-LSD to 90% LSD.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6404927 - 12/28/06 12:59 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah man, I've noticed that certain types of LSD have a specific feel. Everything sold as silver especially gives me a signature feel. whether or not this is related to purity, placebo, something else.....who knows. Well, somebody probably does, but I don't. I have some theories, but.....that's all they are. I'm going to say it's not placebo, and related to the LSD itself becuase I've noticed it as long as I've been tripping, before I even knew the term "LSD crystal", so.....


Another thing I'd like to throw out there is that Owsley, widely believed to be the best LSD chemist ever, was an alchemist. The basic principal behind this is that the universe is a mind.  He believed that since LSD itself modulates the mind, it's highly sensitive to the environment in which it's made. He approached making LSD as an alchemical act, and valued purity of mind and soul as much as he valued the purity of chemistry.

I'm not sure if any of the current chemists follow that, though I bet at least one or two still do. I do know that there is still a lot of extremely pure LSD out there.  I've taken a lot of LSD over the years, and I have to say that some of the doses out now are the cleanest I've ever had, hands down.  To the point where I'm like DAMN!!!! the whole trip, in amazement, and I've had a lot of really clean doses over the years. I'm also noticing that the potency seems to be higher again.  A few years ago I had to take at least 2 hits to really trip, now I'm noticing a lot more doses where one takes me to where 2, and even 3-4 of some of those hits took me. 

It's making me a very happy man.
:grin:
:heartpump: :sunny:


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Dark_Star]
    #6405014 - 12/28/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Dark_Star said:
Yeah man, I've noticed that certain types of LSD have a specific feel.


Have you ever tested different crystal types blind? If you haven't, then clearly we cannot draw predictive correlations between different crystal types and different effects.

Another thing I'd like to throw out there is that Owsley, widely believed to be the best LSD chemist ever

Probably a myth. An LSD synthesis is not the "impossible" task everyone thinks it is. It should be relatively simple to get repeatably good yields of high purity (which is exactly why LSD syntheses are published).

was an alchemist.

What is the significance of that supposed to be?

He approached making LSD as an alchemical act, and valued purity of mind and soul as much as he valued the purity of chemistry.

I doubt that his different approach resulted in any special.

I've taken a lot of LSD over the years, and I have to say that some of the doses out now are the cleanest I've ever had, hands down.

I don't believe that you can know that on the basis of simply ingesting the drug. What does "dirty acid" feel like and what does "dirty acid" mean?

Well, I suppose "dirty acid" would be LSD with *active* impurities in it. The problem is two-fold: (1) other than iso-LSD, nobody seems to know what impurities are present. (2) Given the highly variable and subjective nature of psychedelic drugs, I don't believe that anyone can guage the purity of their LSD sample by eating it (a lot of this is simply because LSD is so uniquely potent, that it's very unlikely you're going to run into an impurity with any effect).

A few years ago I had to take at least 2 hits to really trip, now I'm noticing a lot more doses where one takes me to where 2, and even 3-4 of some of those hits took me.

I haven't used any in years, but most of the stuff I had was roughly predictable in terms of how intense the experience would be based on apparent dosage, but I did have some notable exceptions.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6405455 - 12/28/06 03:17 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

^^^LSD troll. :thumbdown:


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: mecreateme]
    #6405622 - 12/28/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Are you the one who said that undergound labs use GC/MS to test LSD sample purity?

If you can back this up at all or provide some kind of hint as to what the GC/MS revealed, then please contribute to the discussion. I have a really hard time imagining an underground lab with a mass spectrometer. Just being able to operate a mass spectrometer is a relatively rare skill, as it is such a specialized piece of equipment.

I am disgusted by getting such a close-minded response. I don't appreciate the flame, or the attempt at discrediting me, or the obvious attempt at dragging me into a flame war, just to end the thread. Is this how you want it to work? If you don't like what someone says, then you try to put the thread an end? Censorship. I don't care if you want to be willfully ignorant, but don't force others to remain ignorant.


Edited by Chemiker (12/28/06 04:07 PM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: mecreateme]
    #6405668 - 12/28/06 04:18 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Why is it so hard to believe in the power of suggestion or placebo on a drug that makes you more suggestable than perhaps any other substance on the planet?

I find the stories of crystal, types, families, sheet laying, etc very fascinating. Not because different kinds of crystal produce different kinds of trips, but because the stories are real. Whether or not the percieved effects happen because of the causes assumed, or the power of the human mind is unimportant. The stories are part of a culture, and they're interesting tales. That's all that matters.

I appreciate chinacat's posts because I believe he is telling the truth, and sharing his wonderful experiences. He has stated that he's not a chemist, and that he's simply sharing his first hand experience. That is the real life of at least some people involved in the LSD game, and it makes for great reading.

But Chemiker has great posts too. His goal isn't to disrupt your world, and make you believe that anything you ever read about LSD is some deliberate lie. He's here to get to the bottom of things in a scientific way. And, perhaps he's in the wrong place to do so, because few other individuals here have the same approach, or the drive, or the same depth in their facts.

You can't shoot him down for what he's trying to do. You can (and I'm sure he would greatly and seriously enjoy) disproving any of his ideas with hard facts the way he attempts to. But you can't combat points in this way:

Q: I'm sorry but I can't accept your experience as fact if you were under the suggestion of the crystal type before hand. It couldn't even *begin* to be verified without a double blind test.

A: Look buddy... I know what I felt, and if you don't believe me, that's your problem. Enough people here have felt the effects of different crystal types to know there's a difference.

Q: But... those people too were under the suggestion of the crystal type?

I think that few people have any knowledge of what they're getting. And even less of them have the truth. And probably zero of them attempt to verify these percieved differences with a blind test.

Which leads me to my last point...

Q: I realize that there are stories, or perhaps myths on the subject. I'm looking instead for facts that can be proven based on the points I've made.

A: Haven't you read chinacat's crystal to blotter thread? The answers are all right there, and no one gives a fuck if you don't believe it.

Sounds way too much like:

Q: I realize that you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. I'm unable to believe it myself as I've seen no real evidence of it, only stories told in the bible.

A: The answers are all right there for you in the bible. If you've read it, you must be aware that Jesus is god. Anyone around here who has read the bible can tell you that.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6405718 - 12/28/06 04:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

And, I just want to make it clear, once again (I think this is the third time I'm going to say this):

I am not doubting anyone's experiences. People often misinterpret me and think that I'm saying something equivalent to "you did not experience what you just told me you experienced." I have little doubt that when people believe they're getting "amber" it has one feel and "fluff" has a different feel if they say so. What I doubt is that there is sufficient justification to believe that

(1) anybody has enough information to make definitive claims about the purity of the different types of crystals referred to by many people here. I say this on the basis of my own experience with crystals. Nobody has shown repeatable experiments with different LSD crystals in which the purity was assayed. I believe that many of the crystals referred to would easily appear under a wide variety of conditions, but that the purity would not be uniform, even for crystals of the same appearance.

(2) anybody has a remote idea of what the physiological effects of different crystal types are. The subjective effects of pure psychedelic drugs are highly variable. Combine that with uncertainties about the crystals and you're left with a bunch of unknowns.

By taking a look at some of the other threads about LSD crystals, I have already proposed hypotheses as to their nature.

For example, I suspect that "amber" and 'the black stuff' (or purple precipitate / crystal) contain the exact same impurity. I suspect that the impurity is an ergoline dimer, with dimerization occuring at C-2. Clearly, the "amber" stuff has less impurity, but given how strongly dimers of this nature are known to absorb light, I think that any "black stuff" could seriously range between total garbage (50% pure of less) to 95% pure.

So, I think the fact that I am forming hypotheses clearly means that I am taking other peoples's reports about LSD crystals seriously. What I can't take seriously are what I suspect are conclusion about these crystals without sufficient evidence (and I suspect that some of the assertions are flat out wrong).

One thing I like about psychedelic drugs is that it brings science to the limits of experience.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6406020 - 12/28/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

......


Edited by JAP (01/01/07 05:11 PM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: JAP]
    #6406046 - 12/28/06 06:39 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Care to explain how you've reached such a conclusion, and what starting materials were found (and how)?

Welcome to the forum.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: JAP]
    #6406064 - 12/28/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Hmm, hmmm hmm. I can't say that it'd be easy to guess how iso-LSD would incorporate itself into a crystal structure. It's not very different from LSD, of course, but small differences can mean everything, especially in terms of external crystal morphology.

For certain, we can say that iso-LSD would not be responsible for a darkly coloured product.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6406731 - 12/28/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

No flame war meant. More it was a joke, if you people keep up on current events you might recall the LSD troll incident in Colorado. But I also meant to address your troll like posting. This thread will not end in any way from me making a small comment, please don't play things out like they have already happened. Hopefully you got all your name calling out of the way and we can get on the discussion.

I don't recall saying that ever, but there is a thing you can do, which is called sending off your chemicals to people that do have this equipment. In fact, if I recall correctly, Wiccan_Seeker posts about how he has his drugs checked in laboratories where he is at. I am guessing you are under the guise that nobody would willingly do this, because of the obvious legal ramifications, but in some countries it is no big deal.


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Invisiblemoecat
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6406808 - 12/28/06 11:29 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I never even heard of crystal. Only blotter, microdots, etc.


Edited by moecat (12/28/06 11:32 PM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: mecreateme]
    #6406983 - 12/29/06 01:08 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

mecreateme said:
But I also meant to address your troll like posting.

I'm fucking sick of this. I actually have relevant information. The only thing that makes any of my posts "troll like" is that sometimes when I do post, what I contradicts the "common knowledge" of most other people here. That's not trolling. Please stop trying to discredit. I don't want to feel that I have to put goddamn references for every sentence.

I don't recall saying that ever, but there is a thing you can do, which is called sending off your chemicals to people that do have this equipment.

In this case, I would just be sending the sample to me.

Someone in the other thread said that illicit LSD was tested using GC/MS. I guess it wasn't you then, but the point is that I think this is really unlikely. I find claims like this really problematic however. I'm hesistant to toss relevant information out the window just because it seems suspect to me, but that particular claim does seem suspect.

However, even in the case of GC/MS, it's a pretty rare skill for someone to know how to operate one. Of about 500 chemists I work with, less than 10 of them know how to operate the spectrometers we have.

As far as I'm aware, it's illegal for labs to assay street samples of drugs, unless they have special permission. So, unless someone wants to admit to committing a crime with a very valuable peice of equipment, then we're never going to find any published GC/MS samples of LSD.

Quote:

I am guessing you are under the guise that nobody would willingly do this, because of the obvious legal ramifications, but in some countries it is no big deal.




I'd be willing to, but I don't know how to operate a mass spectrometer. I also doubt that this crowd would take my specta seriously.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6406997 - 12/29/06 01:15 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

megalomania with a touch of sophistication. (kidding)

Just try to not be so fuggin snotty..........lol

I dont mind though, I like your style. It reminds me of myself when under a different name.

What you say is obviously entertaining to you, and its good info.
Present it as you wish. You wont get a bad rating from me, thats for sure.


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[quote]Me_Roy said:
You moron. Material is material is material.  No 'thing' fixes any situation.  If anything were so simple we would be living in a much better world.[/quote] <-----the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life.
Thanks shroomery.


Edited by yageman (12/29/06 01:18 AM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: yageman]
    #6407022 - 12/29/06 01:39 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

It just comes down to me reading the forums quickly and only posting when something really strikes me as contradictory to what I know. It's not entertaining to me though. You know, people often refer to my tone, but . . . whyenI type, I hear myself talking to another person pleasantly (and as equals). Text can't carry tone like that.

The only time I'm having fun is when I send people really vicious private messages or leave absurdly negative ratings. I try to keep my fun a little more private than on the forums (otherwise I imagine I'd cause so much havok that I'd be banned within a month). Even when I'm doing something like that though, I'm just trying to get their attention. I really do think that I can be a useful source of information, but that does require me getting people's attention.

The rating is irrelevant to me.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6407038 - 12/29/06 01:53 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I understand that.

Its just has to do with your "tone". Texting logic without feeling or emotional connection is dry and has no tone. Thats why people consider it to be almost offensive sometimes. Partially because it is not playful, and they cant attack you back or level with you sometimes.... Thats not their style.

Dont worry about it though man, im the same way, but in real life.

Conversing with me really pisses some people off. I dont mean to cause that. Im just reacting and putting information out there.
Im glad you think the rating is irrelevant, and that what you say most of the time is not entertaining to you.

If I were you, supporting the truth behind my statements would be very entertaining in a weird way, always was, or else I would not be here, getting all dry and snotty with people here and there.....

Its all good. Enjoy the rating. Just wanted to help you help yourself if you want to give good valued information here from now on. That last statement is supposed to be kinda funny..........
I hope you see what I mean.


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[quote]Me_Roy said:
You moron. Material is material is material.  No 'thing' fixes any situation.  If anything were so simple we would be living in a much better world.[/quote] <-----the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life.
Thanks shroomery.


Edited by yageman (12/29/06 02:07 AM)


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InvisibleJAP
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: yageman]
    #6407292 - 12/29/06 06:17 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

......


Edited by JAP (01/01/07 05:11 PM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6407723 - 12/29/06 10:59 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

In this case, I would just be sending the sample to me.

Someone in the other thread said that illicit LSD was tested using GC/MS. I guess it wasn't you then, but the point is that I think this is really unlikely. I find claims like this really problematic however. I'm hesistant to toss relevant information out the window just because it seems suspect to me, but that particular claim does seem suspect.

However, even in the case of GC/MS, it's a pretty rare skill for someone to know how to operate one. Of about 500 chemists I work with, less than 10 of them know how to operate the spectrometers we have.

As far as I'm aware, it's illegal for labs to assay street samples of drugs, unless they have special permission. So, unless someone wants to admit to committing a crime with a very valuable peice of equipment, then we're never going to find any published GC/MS samples of LSD.




Ever read the Microgram?


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You are everything's way of feeling itself.

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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6408093 - 12/29/06 01:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chemiker said:

Have you ever tested different crystal types blind?  If you haven't, then clearly we cannot draw predictive correlations between different crystal types and different effects.




Yes, this was something I noticed long before I had heard of different crystal types.

Quote:

Another thing I'd like to throw out there is that Owsley, widely believed to be the best LSD chemist ever

Probably a myth.  An LSD synthesis is not the "impossible" task everyone thinks it is.  It should be relatively simple to get repeatably good yields of high purity (which is exactly why LSD syntheses are published).

was an alchemist.

What is the significance of that supposed to be?

He approached making LSD as an alchemical act, and valued purity of mind and soul as much as he valued the purity of chemistry.

I doubt that his different approach resulted in any special.




Many people disagree with that, Ken Kesey being one. Did you ever take any genuine Owsley acid? (Speaking of this, I heard kids talking about having "Owsley acid" a couple years ago. :rofl:) I never got that opportunity, so I can't compare. Having said this, I've had plenty of LSD that was exceptionally clean, and I can't see how LSD could get any better than that. That theory I posted is just that, a theory, and not mine either. I was just thowing it out to see what you'd think about it. My personal opinion is that it's just nostalgia, but, I never got to sample any, so......  His LSD WAS special though....all good LSD is.  :laugh:

Quote:

I've taken a lot of LSD over the years, and I have to say that some of the doses out now are the cleanest I've ever had, hands down.

I don't believe that you can know that on the basis of simply ingesting the drug.  What does "dirty acid" feel like and what does "dirty acid" mean?

Well, I suppose "dirty acid" would be LSD with *active* impurities in it.  The problem is two-fold: (1) other than iso-LSD, nobody seems to know what impurities are present.  (2)  Given the highly variable and subjective nature of psychedelic drugs, I don't believe that anyone can guage the purity of their LSD sample by eating it (a lot of this is simply because LSD is so uniquely potent, that it's very unlikely you're going to run into an impurity with any effect).




What I meant by clean was the experience, let me rephrase; some of the doses I've come across this year are the cleanest FEELING LSD I've ever had. It's something  I notice every single time I take doses from that batch.  The 'dirty acid' feeling is a body load, a wierd feeling I get in my bones, my jaw, my back, my left arm, etc. Occasional cramping, and a more "speedy" feeling, not that I feel tweaked or anything, just that I feel like moving around a lot, and can't really stay still. I've had a lot of beautiful and amazing experiences on doses like that, so I'm def. not bashing it.  I'm not going to say what causes it, because I'm not sure about that. What I am positive about is that some doses are definitely  cleaner than others. Whether or not that's due to the crystal used or not I'll leave alone; my personal opinion is that it is, but I can't give you any scientific proof, so I'm going to leave it as an opinion.


What the debate in this thread shows is how cloaked in mystery LSD still is, after all of these years.  Seeing as we've gone back and forth on this subject, I'd like to say that I find the information you're posting very interesting, and well researched. I think the hostility you're recieving because of it is due to peoples' belief systems being called into question, and a misunderstanding of what you're saying (People thinking you're calling their experiences bullshit).  LSD is sacred, and has touched all of us very deeply, hence the high emotions in this thread (ever try to tell a christian that they aren't practicing what they preach?  :smirk:, this is a very different conversation, yet the principal is the same.)  I'm the same way, your posts are trying to shed more light on LSD, and I dig that, and feel no hostility towards you for it, rather I see us as comrades in the cause. :laugh: However, I do get mightily pissed whenever I hear people spreading all the bullshit lies about LSD (the glass of orange juice, strychnine, stuck in your spine, fries your brain, 7 hits and you're insane, etc......) So I can see where the folks are coming from here.

We just have to remember that we're all on the same side.  :heart:


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: JAP]
    #6408877 - 12/29/06 06:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JAP said:
And FWIW, running a GC/MS is about as simple as doing a drive-by in GTA-San Andreas on the PS2!!




A bit exaggerated of course, but I was also under the impression that is easy.  With the chem knowledge required for synthesis of lyserg saure diethylamid, learning gc/ms is a minor step.
There's a free video about running GC/MS online somewhere (might be MIT).  It certainly looked easier than synthesis.
I doubt any but the largest labs have them, due to high cost, suspicion, and availability of easier methods.
Good thread, keep the knowledge flowin!
:mushroom2: :mushroom2:

*Also, Bear stated in an interview that "weird" things happened with ultrapure lsd, like not dissolving in Methanol.


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Edited by Carbon_Black (12/29/06 06:40 PM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: JAP]
    #6409050 - 12/29/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

JAP said:
Only a noob would try and test the purity of LSD with a GC/MS.


I don't think that most newbies have access to GC/MS, but what you're implying is nonsense (and is more insulting than I usually am). GC/MS is one of the best combinations that could be used to not only test purity but also to identify those impurities.

The compound and the various impurities are not volatile or stable enough to get out of the injection port unless you derivatize them.

That is nonsense and your assertion is simply incorrect.

If what you're saying were true, then no mass spectra for LSD would exist. In fact, there are various ways of analysing LSD via GC/MS. We know that detection of LSD and its metabolites is already accomplished by GC/MS.[1]

If you develop the plate with Ehrlich's reagent, you can scan the plate with an ordinary desktop scanner and use some very basic image analysis to do densitometry on it. This easily gives you a fairly accurate estimate of the ratio of D-LSD to iso-LSD in a sample.

Do you have a reference for this method? What about other impurities? Can they be ruled out?

Please provide a reference for this method. Perhaps instead of implying that we're all newbies, you could back up what you're saying with a reference to a paper.

If you then intentionally degrade the sample with UV light and repeat the analysis, you can identify the impurities by the unique degradation pattern they make on the TLC plate.

Again, reference for this?

Also, does this conclusively identify the impurities?

And FWIW, running a GC/MS is about as simple as doing a drive-by in GTA-San Andreas on the PS2!!

I didn't say that it wasn't simple. I've never tried, but I do know that it is a relatively rare skill to have. Running GC is very easy, I know that. It's tedious. However, most chemists don't know how to run a mass spectrometer, so your comment isn't really relevant. Most chemists with PhDs don't know to run a mass spectrometer. Whether or not it is easy, doesn't matter. Anyway, if it's so easy, then why would only a newbie try to test for LSD and its impurites with this method?

Think of this way: in principle, chemistry is easy, but that doesn't mean that everyone is a chemist or everyone can solve chemical problems at this moment.

[1] Nelson C C. and Foltz, R F. Chromatographic and mass spectrometric methods for determination of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) and metabolites in body fluids. Journal of Chromatography. 580, pp. 97 - 109.

There are various reviews detailing the characterization of LSD and derivatives via GC/MS.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: mecreateme]
    #6409057 - 12/29/06 08:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mecreateme said:
Ever read the Microgram?




My understanding was that this publication was not freely available. No, I haven't read it.

Are you trying to make a point?


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6409072 - 12/29/06 08:27 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Not sure what the point was, but the bulletins are free:

htt__________p://www.usdoj.gov/dea/programs/forensicsci/microgram/bulletins_index.html


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Dark_Star]
    #6409120 - 12/29/06 08:43 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Dark_Star said:
Quote:

Chemiker said:

Have you ever tested different crystal types blind? If you haven't, then clearly we cannot draw predictive correlations between different crystal types and different effects.




Yes, this was something I noticed long before I had heard of different crystal types.




Hang on a second and clarify what you're saying. If I understand you, then you're saying that (1) yes you have tried different crystal types blind and that (2) you noticed that different crystal types had different effects.

Ok, so how many crystal types did you try? How did you find out what type of crystal it was after you tried it? How many times did you try each different crystal?

Many people disagree with that, Ken Kesey being one.

I don't fall for logical fallacies often, so the appeal to celebrity isn't going to work on me.

Well, I don't care if people disagree that Owlsley's approach made a different. I have very little doubt that if you took two groups of chemists, and instructed one group to take an Owsley-like approach and didn't give the other group any instructions, then told them to use the same synthetic procedure, that they would produce the same LSD.

Maybe people disagree due to the power of suggestion. Maybe they heard about Owsley's approach and it became a self-fulfilling prophecy or their examination of their memory was biased.

Otherwise, you're basically asking me to accept that Owsley had supernatural powers and produced supernaturally good LSD. If I'm misunderstanding you, then please give a physical explanation.

Having said this, I've had plenty of LSD that was exceptionally clean

You can't know the purity of the substance just by eating it. Just because it felt "clean" (whatever that's supposed to me) doesn't mean anything with respect to the purity of what you actually took. I don't even know how you can begin to think that a "clean" feeling should even come close to translating into "pure LSD." It doesn't make sense.

and I can't see how LSD could get any better than that.

The point is, you don't really know. It's entirely possible that someone could give you absolutely pure LSD and you'd think it was garbage. You're not a walking peice of analytical equipment. I don't see anyone could rationally think that they can tell the purity of a substance based on its subjective effects. Honestly, for all you know, you could have had 50% pure LSD and 50% lysergic acid. Since the lysergic acid won't do anything at 100 micrograms or so, then you're not going to notice.

What I meant by clean was the experience

I get that, but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt in my earlier post, because what you're saying now is even a less reliable way of determining purity.

You're calling it "clean" but what are you basing it against? 100 training runs with absolutely pure LSD? How can you account for all the variables and unknowns? H

The 'dirty acid' feeling is a body load, a wierd feeling I get in my bones, my jaw, my back, my left arm, etc.

So? That means nothing. How can you rule out LSD as the cause of these psychosomatic symptoms?

I'm not going to say what causes it, because I'm not sure about that.

Well, as long as we agree in principle that it could have been pure LSD and you don't claim to the contrary, then I have no reason to disagree.

What I am positive about is that some doses are definitely cleaner than others

So am I, but I don't believe that you know which is which based on how they feel.

but I can't give you any scientific proof, so I'm going to leave it as an opinion.

You know, people often take science and scientific evidence as though it were some kind of esoteric magic. You should be able to test your opinion, in principle. If you get two batches of acid, and you believe that one batch is one type of crystal and another batch is a different type, then test them blind. Repeat these tests. If you can distinguish two types of crystal, then this test would reveal it. It shouldn't be hard to do and the evidence is scientific.

I think the hostility you're recieving because of it is due to peoples' belief systems being called into question

That's pretty obvious to me.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6409420 - 12/29/06 10:43 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Can you provide a reference for the quantitative determination of LSD and iso-LSD using p-dimethylaminobenzaldehyde (DMAB) and TLC w/ UV light?

As far as I can see, the use of DMAB results in a coloured product if an alpha or beta (C2 or C3 on LSD) unsubstituted indole is present. This would not distinguish between psilocybin, psilocin, LSD, iso-LSD, LSA, etc. so clearly TLC or another method would be required.

The use of dimethylaminobenzene to determine ergot alkaloid presence dates back to (at least) 1929 and there have been so many modifications of this procedure that I can't find the one that you (JAP) specifically seem to be referring to.

Note that caffeine reacts to DMAB in a fashion similar to LSD.

Also, dimers of ergot alkaloids range in colour from red to blue to black. Partly this depends on substituents at the 2 or 3 position, but clearly this means that a range of coloured byproducts could come out of an LSD synthesis.

I have three references to add later, but I just typed this and lost the post, so I'll add them later.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6409468 - 12/29/06 11:04 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

On the Owsley note,
He was starting with PURE lysergic acid and PURE diethylamine, so it was a little easier to achieve superior purity.  Also, his attitude towards synthesis DID make a difference, not because he was "a pure soul" or whatever, but because that kind of devotion will drive a person to really perform.  In other words, he put mad efforts into purification, therefore he made better lsd than a money-grabbing imperialist chemist.  I suggest you continue learing and posting about this subject, since you already have a good chunk of knowledge and experience that we (and me!) don't and shroomerites are sponges for liquid knowledge  :grin:.
:mushroom2: :mushroom2:

*I can't find my source for the Owlsey precursor thing, but since he was making LSD when it was still LEGAL, it don't seem to farfetched.  eeeeeeeeee, if LSD was still legal  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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Edited by AuroricDistortions (12/29/06 11:14 PM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: AuroricDistortions]
    #6409501 - 12/29/06 11:22 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

......


Edited by JAP (01/01/07 05:13 PM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6409503 - 12/29/06 11:23 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I hope this fragmented info can be of some use:
I remember reading elsewhere of the thin layer chromo + computer scanner to get accurate readings.  Might have been the bee hive or lycaeum, I really can't remember.  But if anyone can verify this method, I'll buy a scanner just to try it (with legal chemicals of course).
:mushroom2: :mushroom2:


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: JAP]
    #6409509 - 12/29/06 11:27 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

goddammit i have to work tommorrow! :tongue:

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_article1.shtml


scrooll for hplc graphs

*
The lab we communicated with used high performance liquid chromatography (HPLC), ultraviolet (UV) absorption measurements, and liquid chromatography/mass spectrometry (LC/MS) to determine what was in the microdot. Using the same methods, the microdot results [Fig. 1] were compared against both the high quality analytical standard [Fig. 2] and the 10-year-old lab sample [Fig. 4].
Testing Methods
The most useful of the tests performed was HPLC followed by UV absorption.

erowid.org lsd vault
:mushroom2: :mushroom2:

**Only those labs or individuals who are licensed by the DEA are allowed to handle Schedule I substances such as LSD.
In 1972, the BNDD (The Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs) requested that labs collect names and addresses for anyone submitting controlled substances for testing. Then in 1974, the DEA issued firm guidelines that required licensed laboratories to stop providing quantitative results for anonymously submitted samples of scheduled substances. Now, unless a person is willing to walk in to a lab, give their name, show identification (which would be recorded in the lab's records), and then submit the sample (thereby volunteering proof of having committed a crime), labs are not permitted to provide information about how much of any chemical is present in the sample. Not surprisingly, most lawyers would advise against such an action. (shitty)


Edited by AuroricDistortions (12/29/06 11:34 PM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: AuroricDistortions]
    #6409523 - 12/29/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

AuroricDistortions said:
On the Owsley note,
He was starting with PURE lysergic acid and PURE diethylamine

I would assume that most people involved in LSD manufacture, either legal or illegal, would try using pure lysergic acid and pure diethylamine.

so it was a little easier to achieve superior purity.

That presumes that others don't use pure lysergic acid or pure diethylamine. How can you justify this implication?

Also, his attitude towards synthesis DID make a difference

Evidence of this?

but because that kind of devotion will drive a person to really perform.

I think it's safe to assume that a lot of chemists involved in legal or illegal LSD manufacture are concerned with the purity of the product. Still, even if you aren't especially concerned with purity, that does not neccessarily mean that your product will be any less pure (if a procedure is relatively simple, then taking extra care isn't likely to improve the purity). Also, even if his product was a little more or even a lot more pure than other illicit LSD samples, we still haven't established than any of the impurities will have any effect. Basically, if impurities have no effect, then impure samples should feel "just as clean" as absolutely samples.

In other words, he put mad efforts into purification, therefore he made better lsd than a money-grabbing imperialist chemist.

I don't think that follows.

In industry, if LSD is to be produced for research purposes, then the organization involved in manufacture has a vested interest in distributing a pure product. Further, some chemists involved in illicit LSD manufacture have spiritual views of the drug and thus would be likely to be concerned with purity. Some people are just the types who take pride in their work, even if they have no specific interest in LSD and only want money.

I suggest you continue learing and posting about this subject

I am trying to learn more, however it's hard with a lot of the important information missing. I mean, some people will adamantly say that "I can tell fluff from amber" or something along those lines and when I can't find any credible evidence to back that up, I ask them to back up, but it doesn't always work.


Edited by Chemiker (12/30/06 12:12 AM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: JAP]
    #6409574 - 12/30/06 12:00 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

JAP said:
Keep looking 'em up Chemiker....

BTW, what I said about caffeine responding to DMAB in a similar way as ergot alkaloids was a misreading. The article says that caffeine has similar fluorescence to LSD under UV.

This paper, states that UV spectrometry can't distinguish derivatives of lysergic acid and isolysergic acid (which is to be expected).
Bailey, K., Verner, D., and Legault, D., J .Assoc. Off.A nal. Chem., 1973, 56, 88.

Now, I realize that you're talking about a method using LSD degradation, but a review article I found doesn't mention such a technique and I don't seem to have come across it elsewhere. I'll just have to wait until my library link is back up.

I don't see much point in reporting the numbers of papers using various techniques. The sample size will be biased by my personal searching techniques and by the fact that it is mostly more recent articles that are available to me online. More recent articles tend to be interested in developing automated procedures for confirmind illicit drugs using modern equipment, so most of the ones I see recently are GC/MS based.

Journal of Chromatography A
Volume 41 , 1964, Pages 491-493

Identification of LSD and other indole alkaloids by ultraviolet degradation products
Donald L. Andersen




My library link is down for now. Does this paper answer my questions?

Can the test distinguish LSD from other lysergic acid derivatives? Is the test quantitative? What are the limits on quantitation?

What method is the best is going to depend on what we want to know. I'm curious to whether or not the method you're suggesting can distinguish between the possible derivatives that would be impurites, or does it only distinguish some derivatives from other derivatives?

In 1979, a paper came out showing how mass spec. could unambiguously differentiate between LSD and other ergot alkaloids.

Also interesting to note: DMAB will allow for easy confirmation of an indole compound down to 1 microgram. As I pointed, it is dimerization that produces these coloured dimers. Thus, we know that even 1 microgram of dimer is easily visible (as a purple, blue or black substance). An improved method, using DMAB could detect LSD down to 10 nanograms (1/100th of a microgram). So, it should not be disputable at a highly coloured crystal (or ppt) of (mostly) LSD could be coloured.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: AuroricDistortions]
    #6409587 - 12/30/06 12:07 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Unfortunately, UV absorbance won't distinguish LSD from other lysergic acid derivatives (unless those derivatives have addition pi bonds). This method requires HPLC in conjunction. Fortunately, HPLC are not exactly hard to come by and not particularly expensive. Unfortunately, they are boring to use.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6409874 - 12/30/06 03:48 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I hope I've convinced everyone about the existence of crystal polymorphs and more importantly, that polymorphism is a regularly observed phenomenon.

If you want scientific evidence of crystal polymorphism, take a look at crystals of H2O. Apparently no two snowflakes are the same.

Since dealing with crystals is part of my job, I read a lot about crystals. Here's just one interesting quote I ran across:

The ability of a substance to crystallize in different
crystal forms gives rise to polymorphism. There are
reasons to believe that polymorphism is more the rule
than the exception in crystals of small molecules (ice
is the first example that comes to mind) and in macromolecules
(polymorphism and crystal growth are
major problems in protein structure determination by
X-rays). We shall focus here on medium-size organic
molecules, where polymorphism is fairly common, and
limits to its occurrence are less restrictive than the
experimental difficulties in its detection.


. . .

Polymorphism can be intriguing
to the organic chemist, since it may not be at first
clear whether different crystals are different compounds
or just polymorphs of the same compound.


Gavezzotti, A. and Simonetta, M. Crystal Chemistry in Organic Solids. Chemical Reviews. 82, pp. 1 - 13. (1982)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6409927 - 12/30/06 04:42 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I just wanted to add a note about "clean" or "dirty" experiences.

Clean acid:
The body feels euphoric
The mind is endowed with revelation, wonder, beauty and is seeing the world with relaxation to some extent
Your appetite is still intact and you can eat good food with great delight
Music is easy to embrace
You are more flexible with dealing with new situations/circumstances (in other words you're more comfortable and open about things)

Dirty acid:
Your bones literally ache.
Your stomach feels tight and kind of acidic (sort of like when you drink too much orange juice without a glass of water on the side).
Your jaw and mouth are tense.
In general, you are uptight and sometimes have to pace around to burn up the speedy energy.
Tapping your foot on the ground really fast with one leg occurs.
You feel more speedy than euphoric.
The potential for revelation and awe are far insuperior.
The comedown is like being asked to carry 145lbs of bricks on your back wherever you go and you're already totalled as it is.
When you do come down (or wake up after getting at least some rest), you consider throwing the blotter away soas not to re-experience such a thing.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: World Spirit]
    #6410436 - 12/30/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

......


Edited by JAP (01/01/07 05:10 PM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6411585 - 12/30/06 08:44 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

chemiker, you said that crystals can form differently and randomly, so that means that each lsd batch, indeed each lsd molecule is slightly different,

but earlier you said that two chemists making LSD will make an exactly equal product? even if it doesn't have anything to do with the "state of mind," perhaps the LSD molecules of Owsley's batches were similar to eachother, and the LSD molecules of each batch are similar, and it just so happens that each batch has the "fingerprint" of the chemist, just like two people writing the same word will write it in slightly different ways.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: World Spirit]
    #6412269 - 12/30/06 11:28 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Lets examine more stupidity from the "Recent LSD Prints" thread:

So, mushiemountain was explaining that he only experienced negative somatic symptoms from "lavender" crystal and puts it like this:

well afterwards i was told by someone that it was dipped in a solution from lavender crystal . . . the other tabs i have eaten have been from fluff, apparently. and i haven't had any discomfort at all with those.

That just sounds like an ad hoc explanation.

"Man, that last batch you got for me gave me a bad trip."
ad hoc response, "Oh really man? Sorry about that, but I bought it from a friend of a friend who I don't know well. Later he told me it was from lavender crystal. Next time I'll get you some fluff."

Really though, I question the intelligence of someone who believes their dealer when they claim to know what type of crystal they were getting. Myths are some of the best ways to sell drugs.

SuperD says:

I ate one of those shiva prints last night and after my supplier told me they were 250ug each

After his supplier told him they were 250 ug each? Right. No possibility of the power of suggestion there. I also love how people know what the doses they're getting are. I always make sure to get 125.45 microgram hits. It's my favourite dose.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6412292 - 12/30/06 11:35 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not directing this towards any one person. Certainly neither of the two that you just mentioned... so please no one get offended because of some reason that you apparently do know but could never post about.

But way too many people seem to "know" the exact strength and crystal type of their blotter. Maybe some do. But no way is it even 10% of those claiming to know on here. Not accusing anyone of lying, only being fed BS by a dealer. (Again, some people will probably claim that they have a special circumstance they can't speak of. Cool. You're in the 1% or whatever it is that does know [probably less].).

The point is that a lot of people on the shroomery and in general make claims that they know. And as a whole, even considering the few exceptions that might exist, they absolutely don't.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6412319 - 12/30/06 11:46 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

The person responsible for laying the blotter knows exactly how much goes into each hit. I can't even really comment on the 'power of suggestion' idea man. One hit was all I needed to go where I needed to go, what more needs suggesting?


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: SuperD]
    #6412332 - 12/30/06 11:54 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"The person responsible for laying the blotter knows exactly how much goes into each hit"

And a lot of people here claim to know the exact strength of their blotter. Surely more than the number that know the person who made the sheets.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: JAP]
    #6412344 - 12/30/06 11:59 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

JAP said:
impurities.

This is from the reference you provided:

Some papers I refer to are out of date and I might only be referring to another section of the paper.  I refer to a lot of papers, some of which have sections that are out of date. I didn't quote directly, did I?  I referred to something else in that paper.

Also, take a look at what you're quoting.  I think you're misunderstanding it.  That isn't referring to LSD from blotter.  It's referring to samples of LSD and metabolites obtained from human urine.  It is also specifically mentioning the fact that LSD and metabolites are in such low concentrations in body fluids.  A blotter, by comparison, has quite a high concentration of LSD.

The problem with biological fluid samples is that they have really low concentrations and LSD will adsorb to the silica, so for the really low concentrations of samples from bodily fluids, yes you need a derivative (but this has nothing to do with the mass spectral determination).  Other combo mass spec techniques don't display this problem and don't need derivitization.

I am interested in blotter, crystal, etc. and I think it's clear that we have been talking about those kinds of samples and not biological samples.  In some cases when analysing the samples from urine by GC/MS, it's not the sample that is directly derivatives

If derivitization for GC/MS is always necessary even for blotter, at least that means we might be able to call bullshit on the guy who said underground labs do GC/MS.

I apologize.  You might be right.  I know that I seem hostile sometiemes but other times I don't pay attention fully and I missed the fact that were saying GC/MS and not just MS.  Oh but sometimes it isn't the sample that's directlt derivatized but the reagent is added to the inside of the column, so it can be easy to miss that they're making the TMS of LSD.

The reason I mentioned MS being a rare skill is because someone in another thread said that underground labs test purity by GC/MS and I said that was ridiculous.  It doesn't matter if MS is easy to learn, because not many people have access to an MS or even know how to operate one, so that's why the comment was relevant.

There’s numerous references on using TLC combined with densitometry for quantitative analysis. 

I'm just guessing here, but did you actually read paper or did you find the reference to it off Erowid and come here and repeat?  I recall once being asked about that specific paper, though I didn't realize until you provided me with the reference.  Instead of trying to jump around my questions, why not either just answer them or admit that you don't know the answer.

If you’re skeptical of doing TLC densitometry with an ordinary desktop scanner, there’s this reference:

I'm not asking you for a shitload of references.  I'll take your word for it.  If you say that, "Yes, the analysis is quantitative and distinguishes between LSD, iso-LSD and other lysergic acid derivatives." Then I'd take your word for it.  I asked a few simple questions.  Why are you pouring references down my throat?  I don't really care to read the papers, I'd be more than happy to take your word for the answers.  You're just making me think that you haven't read the papers.  Now, however, I guess I'll read the papers and report back (perhaps doing your work for you? I don't know).

Also, does this conclusively identify the impurities? ?

It does a decent enough job without requiring an instrument that costs as much as one or two BMWs and a chemistry degree to run.


That doesn't answer my question.

A comment you dismissed as "nonsense" and "simply incorrect".

It is nonsense.  That paper is 10 years old.  What they say about derivitization being necessary is not true anymore.

Yeah, and the bulk of them will describe derivatizing samples to promote their volatility and detection.

Maybe, maybe not.  I reject your flat out assertion.  Even if this is true, that doesn't mean that it is still neccessary to do so.

I could find hundreds of papers from 80 years ago that would state that it is neccessary to try synthesizing a chemical and chemically degrading it, in order to determine it's structure.  That doesn't mean that it's still true, since we have NMR (and other tools) now.

Reviews are only as good as the people who write them.

That's a cheesy cop-out.

I’ve listed my references

Did you actually read any of them?

My contention is…again…that GC/MS based methods generally use derivatization of compounds of this class.

Over ten years ago, that may have been true.  Within the last ten years, that's not true.  Whether or not what you're saying is true will depend on the relative number of papers about GC/MS characterization of LSD within those time periods.  If most of the literature on this subject is more than 10 years old, then certainly what you're saying is correct, but you'd just be ignoring the fact that better methods have been developed.

I’m suggesting a viable alternative for LSD that does not require using modern equipment, and is therefore within reach of anyone reading this forum.

And I'm asking you simple questions about what those techniques can determine, but you don't seem to be able to answer them.  If you could answer them, then we could maybe mike a nice like chart of pros and cons of each method, but instead you seem to think that I'm skeptical of what you're saying.  I'm just asking for clarification.

Read all the papers I’ve referenced.

Why?  Because you haven't?

Your questions are answered.

Why can't you simply answer them?

The limits on quantitation are certainly in the microgram range with a limit of detection in the sub-microgram range.

Hooray!  Something specific!  Maybe you've actually read one of them.

I thought what we wanted to know was the relative amounts of D-LSD and iso-LSD and what other impurities may be present.

I'm interested in any impurities.

If you're that curious, read the papers.

I intend to.  I am curious and that's why I asked you, but it's looking pretty obviously like you haven't read these papers.

Was it a GC/MS technique that doesn’t require derivatization because of the crappy way these compound chromatograph in the gas phase?

Why don't you read it and find out.  :tongue:

Ardrey, R. E., and Moffat, A. C., J . Forensic Sci. Soc., 1979, 19, 253.

sorry but I feel fucking terrible. when I first read your thing about GC/MS, I was thinking about the MS and not at all about GC. that's not why I feel bad.  shitty day.  week. year.


Edited by Chemiker (12/31/06 12:51 AM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6412349 - 12/31/06 12:03 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Your point has been taken.  I'm not going to defend a supplier I've never met in person.  One hit got me where I needed to go  :heart: That's all I'm saying.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: sleepy]
    #6412359 - 12/31/06 12:08 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sleepy said:
chemiker, you said that crystals can form differently and randomly, so that means that each lsd batch [is slightly different]

No, not true. Polymorphism doesn't mean that the crystals can take on any arbitrary form. When I say that crystals can exhibit polymorphism and which polymorph appears can seem to be random, this doesn't at all mean that all batches are different.

If pure LSD tartrate exhibits, for example, three polymorphs, then there are only three crystal forms of pure LSD.

When it comes to LSD + impurities, yes, then perhaps every batch could be slightly (or majorly) different in structure, which is why I object to throwing around the categories as though they were all the same thing.

indeed each lsd molecule is slightly different

No. That is false.

but earlier you said that two chemists making LSD will make an exactly equal product?

A crystal is an arrangement of molecules. Two chemists using the same synthetic procedure will make the same molecule (e.g. LSD), but a slight difference in the crystallization can result in different crystal forms. Or the crystal forms could be the same.

Are you clear on the difference between crystals and molecules? A crystal is made up of molecules. Different crystals can be made up from the same molecule.

even if it doesn't have anything to do with the "state of mind," perhaps the LSD molecules of Owsley's batches were similar to eachother

Ok. You obviously aren't clear on what a molecule is. There are only 4 forms of LSD molecules, but only one of them is active (referred to as D-LSD). What we call "acid" is D-LSD. All D-LSD molecules are the same. By definition, Owsley's LSD molecules had damn well better be the same. If Owsley's LSD molecules weren't the same, then some of those molecules simply would be LSD (or they would be inactive isomers, like iso-LSD).

and it just so happens that each batch has the "fingerprint" of the chemist

That's really really unlikely. Like, walking through a solid wall unlikely.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: SuperD]
    #6412370 - 12/31/06 12:12 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

SuperD said:
The person responsible for laying the blotter knows exactly how much goes into each hit.


I doubt it. I really don't think underground labs do the kind of quality control that would be necessary. I'm sure that someone at least weighs a certain abount of product and divides it up appropriately to get 250 ug of product on each blotter. I just find it really hard to believe that someone is also analysing the absolute purity of what they lay out.

Also, I simply have a hard time believing that you know the guy who knows the guy who lays the blotter. Maybe you do, but when people claim to know their LSD doses, the bullshit alarms go off in my head. I could be wrong, but so you could. You can't rule out power of suggestion. I can't rule out that you're an LSD chemist yourself.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6412381 - 12/31/06 12:17 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

.....


Edited by JAP (01/01/07 05:13 PM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6412409 - 12/31/06 12:28 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chemiker said:
SuperD said:
The person responsible for laying the blotter knows exactly how much goes into each hit.


I doubt it.  I really don't think underground labs do the kind of quality control that would be necessary.  I'm sure that someone at least weighs a certain abount of product and divides it up appropriately to get 250 ug of product on each blotter.  I just find it really hard to believe that someone is also analysing the absolute purity of what they lay out.

Also, I simply have a hard time believing that you know the guy who knows the guy who lays the blotter.  Maybe you do, but when people claim to know their LSD doses, the bullshit alarms go off in my head.  I could be wrong, but so you could.  You can't rule out power of suggestion.  I can't rule out that you're an LSD chemist yourself.




Whether or not the product they lay is pure or not was not in question.  I agree on all levels that the quality control factor is not there mainly due to the legality of LSD.  And by all means, please do rule me out as an LSD chemist because an LSD chemist I am not.  :peace:


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: JAP]
    #6412438 - 12/31/06 12:58 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JAP said:
Sorry, I must have missed it....

What exactly has changed in the instrumental technique of GC/MS in the last ten years that makes my statement nonsense?




Nothing, but to say that it's a garbage technique is fucking ridiculous. How difficult is it to make the TMS derivative of something? Add a little trimethylsilylchloride? Wow. Or, use a variation on the technique, perhaps a different capillary. I don't know if this is done in GC/MS but it is in capillary electrophoresis. Apparently

You know, all I wanted fas for you to answer the questions I had about the DMAB technique. I don't want to read 15 papers when you could have just as easily given me a one sentence response for each question I had. You should know as well as I do that reading 15 scientific papers is a time consuming process.

Anyway, yes, you've convinced me that I'm wrong about the GCMS thing. Well, almost. The articles don't say anything about illicit doses, like blotter or microdots. Urine or other bodily fluids could be a special case due to such low concentrations, but I can't find any GC/MS of just doses, so I'll assume you're right.

Aren't you glad that I'm a scientist? I might be an arrogant fuck but at least being a scientists makes me used to being wrong. You're right. I was in error. I deeply apologize and I feel really bad about it.


Edited by Chemiker (12/31/06 03:09 AM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6415216 - 01/01/07 10:10 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chemiker said:
Quote:

sleepy said:
chemiker, you said that crystals can form differently and randomly, so that means that each lsd batch [is slightly different]

No, not true. Polymorphism doesn't mean that the crystals can take on any arbitrary form. When I say that crystals can exhibit polymorphism and which polymorph appears can seem to be random, this doesn't at all mean that all batches are different.

If pure LSD tartrate exhibits, for example, three polymorphs, then there are only three crystal forms of pure LSD.

When it comes to LSD + impurities, yes, then perhaps every batch could be slightly (or majorly) different in structure, which is why I object to throwing around the categories as though they were all the same thing.

indeed each lsd molecule is slightly different

No. That is false.

but earlier you said that two chemists making LSD will make an exactly equal product?

A crystal is an arrangement of molecules. Two chemists using the same synthetic procedure will make the same molecule (e.g. LSD), but a slight difference in the crystallization can result in different crystal forms. Or the crystal forms could be the same.

Are you clear on the difference between crystals and molecules? A crystal is made up of molecules. Different crystals can be made up from the same molecule.

even if it doesn't have anything to do with the "state of mind," perhaps the LSD molecules of Owsley's batches were similar to eachother

Ok. You obviously aren't clear on what a molecule is. There are only 4 forms of LSD molecules, but only one of them is active (referred to as D-LSD). What we call "acid" is D-LSD. All D-LSD molecules are the same. By definition, Owsley's LSD molecules had damn well better be the same. If Owsley's LSD molecules weren't the same, then some of those molecules simply would be LSD (or they would be inactive isomers, like iso-LSD).

and it just so happens that each batch has the "fingerprint" of the chemist

That's really really unlikely. Like, walking through a solid wall unlikely.





you said yourself

"Another thing I forget to mention is pretty important when it comes to different forms of LSD crystals having different effects. It is well known in the pharmaceutical industry that different crystal polymorphs of the same drug can have different pharmacological effects. Some crystals might dissolve more rapidly than others, which affects their distribution in the body. Some crystals might not dissolve as well as others, which can decrease their biological availability. The irony of this is that it's possible for a 100% pure crystal of a drug in one crystal form to result in less drug entering the body than a less pure crystal in a different form! This probably goes against all conventional wisdom that "LSD is LSD is LSD." It's entirely possible that some crystal polymorphs of LSD aren't absorbed by the body as easily or quickly as others. "

i would go further to say that perhaps each drug receptor in brain could be slightly different as well, increasing the variability. i know what a molecule is, and i know what a crystal is. what you were saying is that different crystal forms have different effects, and since the sythensization process can result in different crystal polymorphs, perhaps OWSLEY's process created a certain type of polymorph more often than others.



now try to stay with me here as i try to simplify...

which chemist creates acid which has more people say "i had a good experience"

because at the end of the day, even if you use complicated equipment to find out the chemical composition of each individual molecule of Acid, it's easier to say that the most people like Sandoz acid, many people like owsley acid, and on down the line people dislike the less pure acid (which can be identified by the color of the crystal, white being the most pure and all colors being impure). if you have a good experience with a substance, then good.

i think its pretty brash to think you understand exactly this whole deal... and if you disagree consider this.
when acid first came out it was all made by one source, the sandoz corporation, and it was distributed in 1 gram vials. people could take acid without knowing which batch it came from and recognize a difference. this acid was all of similar purity


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: sleepy]
    #6415279 - 01/01/07 10:51 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"which chemist creates acid which has more people say "i had a good experience"

I think Chemiker's entire point is: The acid which is said to be the most pure/clean by the dealer to the buyer, often times.

"it's easier to say that the most people like Sandoz acid, many people like owsley acid, and on down the line people dislike the less pure acid (which can be identified by the color of the crystal, white being the most pure and all colors being impure). if you have a good experience with a substance, then good."

You can give someone some 99% pure acid and tell them it was some black, horrible goo that was left at the bottom of a flask. 40% pure at the most. Let's see how they like it. Let's see if they don't have horrible back spasms and pains, or some other ridiculous side effect.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6415579 - 01/01/07 01:42 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Debunking the myth.

Excellent.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: JAP]
    #6415688 - 01/01/07 02:23 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JAP said:
Only a noob would try and test the purity of LSD with a GC/MS. The compound and the various impurities are not volatile or stable enough to get out of the injection port unless you derivatize them.




I think I should take back my apology to some extent, because what you said here *is* nonsense.

Derivitization in GC/MS is required because the capillary in the gas chromatograph will absorb some LSD, which is a problem when working with biological samples due to such low concentrations. The way you've stated it here, you're saying that derivitization has to do with the injection into the mass spectrometer, which is not the case (and which was what I felt was nonsense).

Furthermore, when I said something about how it was possible to get good mass spectra of LSD, you didn't clarify and say anything about how the problem had to do with the gas chromatograph.

I'm starting to think that you probably read that one paper I referred to and jumped to a conlcusion about the nature of the problem.

So, technically, GC/MS requires derivitization of LSD and metabolites when working with biological samples (street doses may be different). Derivitization is necessary due to adsorption on the capillary. Another solution would be to treat the capillary or use a special capillary. Derivitization has nothing to do with the mass spectra, as you indicated.

What you said was indeed nonsense. You only happened to be right later because your comments were general.


Edited by Chemiker (01/01/07 02:35 PM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: sleepy]
    #6415710 - 01/01/07 02:34 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sleepy said:
and it just so happens that each batch has the "fingerprint" of the chemist

That's really really unlikely. Like, walking through a solid wall unlikely.




you said yourself




Saying that different pharmaceutical crystals of the same compound can have different effects doesn't mean that all drugs have different effects from different crystals. I mentioned this as an illustration of all of the unknowns. I do have reason to believe that LSD would not exhibit this behaviour (i.e. to the extent that any specific batch could be identified by subjective effects).

There's no need to quote me. I know what I said.

i would go further to say that perhaps each drug receptor in brain could be slightly different as well

Polymorphism in receptors is known, though I don't specifically know about 5-HT2A. However, this has nothing to do with the drug itself, does it? This just adds another variable, so thanks for mentioning it. You're absolutely right. This implies that different people could respond to the exact same substance in different ways.

i know what a molecule is, and i know what a crystal is.

Well, based on the way you put it, that each LSD molecule could be slightly different, made it seem otherwise. If you knew what a molecule was then you wouldn't be able to say that perhaps each of the same molecule is slightly different.

what you were saying is that different crystal forms have different effects

No, I wasn't. I was saying that different crystal forms of some drugs can have different effects, not that they necessarily do.

and since the sythensization process can result in different crystal polymorphs, perhaps OWSLEY's process created a certain type of polymorph more often than others.

That is indeed plausible. What I don't think is plausible is that it result in an LSD experience with a characteristic ("figerprint") effect.

because at the end of the day, even if you use complicated equipment to find out the chemical composition of each individual molecule of Acid, it's easier to say that the most people like Sandoz acid

If I saw evidence that people actually liked one form better than another, then I'd accept that. The simple fact is that I've never seen anyone who's claimed knowledge of one type being better than another being able to account for the variables (and I never see anyone trying it blind).

That is to say, all of the claims I've seen about one type of crystal or dose being better than another are essentially groundless or have deep methodological problems attached to those claims..

i think its pretty brash to think you understand exactly this whole deal... and if you disagree consider this.

If that's what you think then you aren't paying attention. I think I've clarified what my position on this is a number of times. I do not believe that the crystal terminology thrown around on these forums is valid. That is, I do not believe that the conclusions about each different crystal type are correct. What I'm doing is giving plausible reasons to suspect that the terminology and claims about such things as "amber", "fluff", etc. is nonsense. I am not saying that I exactly understand the whole deal, so DO NOT TRY SAYING THAT I DID.

people could take acid without knowing which batch it came from and recognize a difference.

If you could provide me with credible evidence of this, then I would accept it.


Edited by Chemiker (01/01/07 03:40 PM)


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6420942 - 01/03/07 09:14 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

I just read through most of the posts, I can see darkstar's point on what he's talking about with owsley and the way the production of lsd can affect its actual effects when taken. This statement might or might not be able to be proven by science, but think with a more expanded consciousness with me for a second. I dont know too much about the actual chemistry aspect of it like you do chemiker, and I admit you do seem quite educated and passionate about the field, and I learned some things from your earlier posts in this thread. That being said think about this. Energies respond with energies. Think about the coca plant. In south america, some of the native people there use the plant similar to coffee.They dont see any negative effects like we see from cocaine. Then some of it gets processed into cocaine. The whole time from the moment its cut til a person uses it, its being subjected to negative energies. People robbing eachother, killing the crap out of eachother, scamming eachother at any possible chance. Think about all of that and the experience the user gets from it. The substance from its creation is purely about greed. Thats what the substance reflects in experience. Same thing with lsd. If its created out of love and sharing and for expansion, as some of it still is, it will directly reflect that. If its created out of greed, without care and for the desire of money, the experience will reflect that also. You might not be able to see this because of lack of proving it with a machine and "science", but thats my humble opinion. Even as the lsd moves down the chain from chemist to user, I believe its affected by the energies its passed down upon also besides just its synthesis. If people are cheating others and scamming by overpricing or any other scams or subjecting it to whatever energy is around it will be reflected in the experience. take it as you wish its only 2cents.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Thereason]
    #6421023 - 01/03/07 09:48 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)



This book has a chapter by LSD inventor Dr. Albert Hofmann. He specifically points out that there's an ideal technique to getting the best end result, although I don't understand for certain if he is implying a better product for ingestion.
(I'm not in front of the book right now).

Someone might want to own a copy for reference. These questions should be raised to Dr. Sasha Shulgin who fields questions when written to. He is largely considered the top expert on synthetic and semi-synthetic psychedelic/etheogenic substances of our time.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: World Spirit]
    #7561124 - 10/25/07 10:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I just wanted to add that if owsley's shit was so good, why was it sometimes referred to as owsley's speed or orange amphetamine?


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #13191770 - 09/13/10 09:42 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I have always heard of column chromatography used after the double recrystallization, along with a slow precipitation to get 99.9% purity.  If you freeze precip you will get 99.3% purity at best.  The greatest impurity in LSD is iso-LSD.  From known literature Methanol, Chloroform, and Hexane are the solvents of choice.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: FilamentousFungi]
    #13191911 - 09/13/10 10:11 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FilamentousFungi said:
I have always heard of column chromatography used after the double recrystallization, along with a slow precipitation to get 99.9% purity.  If you freeze precip you will get 99.3% purity at best.  The greatest impurity in LSD is iso-LSD.  From known literature Methanol, Chloroform, and Hexane are the solvents of choice.




from what i just read the crystals that take the longest to crystalize are less pure. but im not sure

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6383636#6383636


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: DoseInTheWoods3420]
    #13192565 - 09/14/10 01:39 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

X-ray crystallography is usually dealing with very small amounts and is starting with a highly purified material.  It is selective recrystallization from what I understand.  Nick Sand said that he did not use the "Wrinkle method" of freeze precipitation as it produced a less pure product.  I would trust Nick Sand's statements as he made the purest clandestine manufactured LSD ever...it was purer than the analytical samples that the government had at the time.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: FilamentousFungi]
    #13195187 - 09/14/10 04:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

thanks for bumping this twas a great stoned read lol, shame chemiker no longer posts he seemed to know his shit. couldn't imagine doing what that guy does everyday at work


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Revolutionine]
    #13195309 - 09/14/10 04:57 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Revolutionine said:
thanks for bumping this twas a great stoned read lol, shame chemiker no longer posts he seemed to know his shit. couldn't imagine doing what that guy does everyday at work




I think Chemiker knew his shit when he was working with very small qualities of samples that were very pure to begin with.  SWIM would be very surprised to know what his choices of solvents would be as the known methods can produce 99.99% pure LSD.  This is tested with a GC not the tools that Chemiker was using.  SWIM would also like to hear his workup for this theoretically purer crystal.  As far as his nonsense about the purity and visibility of product, he might want to get a CC and see how much the color changes when the D-LSD is separated before recrystallization vs after.  There is a visible difference as has been reported by many different sources.  The color of the #1 impurity(iso LSD) would be the same as D-LSD so he has a point about the visibility of the impurities there. He did not specify iso or D- LSD so SWIM assumes he meant all LSD as they are converted readily.


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InvisibleToolTroll
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: FilamentousFungi]
    #13196519 - 09/14/10 08:33 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

This was a great bump. Excellent discussion, and one I've been having with friends this summer, and I'm in Chemiker's camp, and no one listens to me. But whatever... I was also very intrigued with the idea of polymorphism of the crystallization, and possibly different absorption rates of different forms.

My question: So how do all of these illicit chemists actually test the purity of their product when finished? Obviously for anyone to know the end dose, then it has to be tested at crystal stage, right? If not with a GC/MS, then with what?


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"This whole idea that different is bad, that a change in consciousness is in itself harmful, is really one of the fundamental problems inherent in the drug war.” - Rick Doblin
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OfflineFilamentousFungi
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: ToolTroll]
    #13196648 - 09/14/10 08:56 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

More than likely TLC.  In the early years people could submit samples for testing.  Some countries still have that system setup.  Take a look at this for an idea of x-ray crystallography.


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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: FilamentousFungi]
    #13202092 - 09/15/10 11:32 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

This is a great read of a thread. Thanks to you all so much.

:popcorn:


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OfflineFilamentousFungi
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: rye]
    #13217941 - 09/19/10 12:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

rye said:
I just wanted to add that if owsley's shit was so good, why was it sometimes referred to as owsley's speed or orange amphetamine?




If you would have done some research on Bear you would know that he was a methedrine cook before he cooked LSD.  He was known to cook very pure methedrine.  Neil said that it was the best speed he ever took.  That's one hell of a statement coming from Neil.  Also when LSD is in higher ug people tend to start to believe that there is speed or strychnine as adulterants.  There has never been a tested sample of LSD with strychnine.


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Edited by FilamentousFungi (09/19/10 12:00 PM)


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OfflineFilamentousFungi
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: FilamentousFungi]
    #13227096 - 09/21/10 01:40 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

So to review most of the xtl LSD anyone will see will be impure.  Those impurities will be as high as 2/3 iso-LSD by some synth methods.  Better methods will have 1/3>1/10 total weight iso-LSD.  That can be reclaimed but usually is not.  Therefor you can assume that if you get Fluff(Needlepoint is the same thing- Nick Sand's LSD was called fluff and it was tested @ 99.9% pure and Needlepoint has the same purity no matter what hippy lot experts say as the Analytical testing and organic chemistry have proven them to be extremely inaccurate) that the xtl would actually posses the ug that is stated.  As MAPS has stated in public forum most of the samples are showing 2/3 iso-LSD which means that when people think they are getting 100ug LSD the tests showed 30ug of D-LSD with a 10% variation possible.  There is said to be less than 5% of the LSD market with pure crystal...95% of the LSD people will encounter will be impure.  The possibility of people finding real fluff or needlepoint is not very good on lot when it's 1/20th of the market share.  More than likely you will buy LSD with 2/3 iso-LSD from bikers who push the WoW saying it's fluff.  Real fluff is out there on WoW but it's NOT coming from those guys, or the philthy phucks(philly crew).  It's amazing they those guys sell grrs for 18k and it's only 1/3 d-LSD.  So for the full grr of D-LSD it would cost 54k :eek:  It seems like the 20k grr of fluff is where the smart people would go as it is 20k for a grr of D-LSD.(Hypothetical prices derived from other shroomery threads currently running)  With the weight of half assed crystal out there it would seem like there would be some people getting CC's and taking note of the best alternative to hexane used in spice teks.  If a myco bag(glove box) were to be filled with an inert gas(argon), and a CC were used, and the method mentioned by Nick Sand for iso reclamation were followed, along with some recrystallization in the beginning, there would more than likely be 99.3%+ pure LSD as the end product.


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