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Thereason
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Registered: 03/21/05
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
#6420942 - 01/03/07 09:14 AM (17 years, 29 days ago) |
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I just read through most of the posts, I can see darkstar's point on what he's talking about with owsley and the way the production of lsd can affect its actual effects when taken. This statement might or might not be able to be proven by science, but think with a more expanded consciousness with me for a second. I dont know too much about the actual chemistry aspect of it like you do chemiker, and I admit you do seem quite educated and passionate about the field, and I learned some things from your earlier posts in this thread. That being said think about this. Energies respond with energies. Think about the coca plant. In south america, some of the native people there use the plant similar to coffee.They dont see any negative effects like we see from cocaine. Then some of it gets processed into cocaine. The whole time from the moment its cut til a person uses it, its being subjected to negative energies. People robbing eachother, killing the crap out of eachother, scamming eachother at any possible chance. Think about all of that and the experience the user gets from it. The substance from its creation is purely about greed. Thats what the substance reflects in experience. Same thing with lsd. If its created out of love and sharing and for expansion, as some of it still is, it will directly reflect that. If its created out of greed, without care and for the desire of money, the experience will reflect that also. You might not be able to see this because of lack of proving it with a machine and "science", but thats my humble opinion. Even as the lsd moves down the chain from chemist to user, I believe its affected by the energies its passed down upon also besides just its synthesis. If people are cheating others and scamming by overpricing or any other scams or subjecting it to whatever energy is around it will be reflected in the experience. take it as you wish its only 2cents.
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World Spirit
PNW



Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Thereason]
#6421023 - 01/03/07 09:48 AM (17 years, 29 days ago) |
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This book has a chapter by LSD inventor Dr. Albert Hofmann. He specifically points out that there's an ideal technique to getting the best end result, although I don't understand for certain if he is implying a better product for ingestion. (I'm not in front of the book right now).
Someone might want to own a copy for reference. These questions should be raised to Dr. Sasha Shulgin who fields questions when written to. He is largely considered the top expert on synthetic and semi-synthetic psychedelic/etheogenic substances of our time.
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rye
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I just wanted to add that if owsley's shit was so good, why was it sometimes referred to as owsley's speed or orange amphetamine?
-------------------- blue are the life giving waters taken for granted, they quietly understand. j hendrix.
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FilamentousFungi
Entheomycologist



Registered: 08/23/10
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
#13191770 - 09/13/10 09:42 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have always heard of column chromatography used after the double recrystallization, along with a slow precipitation to get 99.9% purity. If you freeze precip you will get 99.3% purity at best. The greatest impurity in LSD is iso-LSD. From known literature Methanol, Chloroform, and Hexane are the solvents of choice.
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DoseInTheWoods3420
LSD Connoisseur



Registered: 10/06/09
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Quote:
FilamentousFungi said: I have always heard of column chromatography used after the double recrystallization, along with a slow precipitation to get 99.9% purity. If you freeze precip you will get 99.3% purity at best. The greatest impurity in LSD is iso-LSD. From known literature Methanol, Chloroform, and Hexane are the solvents of choice.
from what i just read the crystals that take the longest to crystalize are less pure. but im not sure
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6383636#6383636
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You're either on the bus, or off the bus everything i say is complete and utter bulshit
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FilamentousFungi
Entheomycologist



Registered: 08/23/10
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X-ray crystallography is usually dealing with very small amounts and is starting with a highly purified material. It is selective recrystallization from what I understand. Nick Sand said that he did not use the "Wrinkle method" of freeze precipitation as it produced a less pure product. I would trust Nick Sand's statements as he made the purest clandestine manufactured LSD ever...it was purer than the analytical samples that the government had at the time.
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Revolutionine
number9..number9..num



Registered: 11/16/08
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thanks for bumping this twas a great stoned read lol, shame chemiker no longer posts he seemed to know his shit. couldn't imagine doing what that guy does everyday at work
-------------------- All I ever wanted was to be free, and in the end that's how it turned out to be...
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FilamentousFungi
Entheomycologist



Registered: 08/23/10
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Quote:
Revolutionine said: thanks for bumping this twas a great stoned read lol, shame chemiker no longer posts he seemed to know his shit. couldn't imagine doing what that guy does everyday at work
I think Chemiker knew his shit when he was working with very small qualities of samples that were very pure to begin with. SWIM would be very surprised to know what his choices of solvents would be as the known methods can produce 99.99% pure LSD. This is tested with a GC not the tools that Chemiker was using. SWIM would also like to hear his workup for this theoretically purer crystal. As far as his nonsense about the purity and visibility of product, he might want to get a CC and see how much the color changes when the D-LSD is separated before recrystallization vs after. There is a visible difference as has been reported by many different sources. The color of the #1 impurity(iso LSD) would be the same as D-LSD so he has a point about the visibility of the impurities there. He did not specify iso or D- LSD so SWIM assumes he meant all LSD as they are converted readily.
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ToolTroll
tourettic


Registered: 08/02/04
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This was a great bump. Excellent discussion, and one I've been having with friends this summer, and I'm in Chemiker's camp, and no one listens to me. But whatever... I was also very intrigued with the idea of polymorphism of the crystallization, and possibly different absorption rates of different forms.
My question: So how do all of these illicit chemists actually test the purity of their product when finished? Obviously for anyone to know the end dose, then it has to be tested at crystal stage, right? If not with a GC/MS, then with what?
-------------------- "This whole idea that different is bad, that a change in consciousness is in itself harmful, is really one of the fundamental problems inherent in the drug war.” - Rick Doblin my cactus collection You vote with your dollars. Everyday. Vote responsibly.
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FilamentousFungi
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: ToolTroll]
#13196648 - 09/14/10 08:56 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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More than likely TLC. In the early years people could submit samples for testing. Some countries still have that system setup. Take a look at this for an idea of x-ray crystallography.
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blissedout


Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 22,320
Loc: Yonder
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This is a great read of a thread. Thanks to you all so much.
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FilamentousFungi
Entheomycologist



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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: rye]
#13217941 - 09/19/10 12:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
rye said: I just wanted to add that if owsley's shit was so good, why was it sometimes referred to as owsley's speed or orange amphetamine?
If you would have done some research on Bear you would know that he was a methedrine cook before he cooked LSD. He was known to cook very pure methedrine. Neil said that it was the best speed he ever took. That's one hell of a statement coming from Neil. Also when LSD is in higher ug people tend to start to believe that there is speed or strychnine as adulterants. There has never been a tested sample of LSD with strychnine.
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Edited by FilamentousFungi (09/19/10 12:00 PM)
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FilamentousFungi
Entheomycologist



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So to review most of the xtl LSD anyone will see will be impure. Those impurities will be as high as 2/3 iso-LSD by some synth methods. Better methods will have 1/3>1/10 total weight iso-LSD. That can be reclaimed but usually is not. Therefor you can assume that if you get Fluff(Needlepoint is the same thing- Nick Sand's LSD was called fluff and it was tested @ 99.9% pure and Needlepoint has the same purity no matter what hippy lot experts say as the Analytical testing and organic chemistry have proven them to be extremely inaccurate) that the xtl would actually posses the ug that is stated. As MAPS has stated in public forum most of the samples are showing 2/3 iso-LSD which means that when people think they are getting 100ug LSD the tests showed 30ug of D-LSD with a 10% variation possible. There is said to be less than 5% of the LSD market with pure crystal...95% of the LSD people will encounter will be impure. The possibility of people finding real fluff or needlepoint is not very good on lot when it's 1/20th of the market share. More than likely you will buy LSD with 2/3 iso-LSD from bikers who push the WoW saying it's fluff. Real fluff is out there on WoW but it's NOT coming from those guys, or the philthy phucks(philly crew). It's amazing they those guys sell grrs for 18k and it's only 1/3 d-LSD. So for the full grr of D-LSD it would cost 54k It seems like the 20k grr of fluff is where the smart people would go as it is 20k for a grr of D-LSD.(Hypothetical prices derived from other shroomery threads currently running) With the weight of half assed crystal out there it would seem like there would be some people getting CC's and taking note of the best alternative to hexane used in spice teks. If a myco bag(glove box) were to be filled with an inert gas(argon), and a CC were used, and the method mentioned by Nick Sand for iso reclamation were followed, along with some recrystallization in the beginning, there would more than likely be 99.3%+ pure LSD as the end product.
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